Clutch trouble

[Rich_NYS]

I posted in my other thread about a clutch issue I'm having, but wanted a thread specific to this issue to better stay on topic.


My clutch has the symptoms of being "non-existent;" with the engine running, I can shift into any gear without pressing the clutch pedal. The car is currently on stands, but tonight will be on it's wheels for further troubleshooting.

-Hydraulics are bled
-Clutch fork travels back & forth, and I used a borescope to watch the throwout bearing(?) engage the pressure plate.
-Linkage is fine, I can shift through the gears from beneath the car.
-When I first bought the car, I drove it in 1st & reverse in my driveway....drove it into my garage.
-PO sent me a video dated 2 weeks before I bought it...driving & shifting through all gears.

Since last driven:

-I changed the master & slave, and bled both (see above.)
-Did a lot of cleaning of the engine & transmission area.
-Car has been sitting in my semi-heated garage for about 20 months.

Basically, it acts as though the engine is disconnected from the transmission (with the clutch pedal having no effect.)

Tonight when I put it on it's wheels, I'll make further observations.

Thanks!

[SS Spoiler]

Possible clutch disk is rusted to the shaft in
released position?......

[Rich_NYS]

Possible clutch disk is rusted to the shaft in
released position?......

Thanks.....any thoughts on how to "break it free?"



I've been thinking on what I've changed since it last worked properly:

-I changed the master & slave, and bled both.
-I changed the bolts for the slave 'cause the OEM bolts seemed a bit short (this has me wondering if the slave is the issue...pushing on the fork while "at rest.)
-I changed the fluid in the system.


Tonight after I take the car off stands I'm going to pull the slave and see how things act with nothing touching the clutch fork.

[David T]

Thanks.....any thoughts on how to "break it free?"



I've been thinking on what I've changed since it last worked properly:

-I changed the master & slave, and bled both.
-I changed the bolts for the slave 'cause the OEM bolts seemed a bit short (this has me wondering if the slave is the issue...pushing on the fork while "at rest.)
-I changed the fluid in the system.


Tonight after I take the car off stands I'm going to pull the slave and see how things act with nothing touching the clutch fork.


Pull the parking brake hard to stop the wheels from turning and then try shifting with and without the clutch. Or get it back on the ground. If you see the clutch fork moving when you step on the pedal it probably is OK. If you can't get release the clutch is stuck. Shift into 5th with the parking brake on and release the clutch. That should break it loose.

[Rich_NYS]

Pull the parking brake hard to stop the wheels from turning and then try shifting with and without the clutch. Or get it back on the ground. If you see the clutch fork moving when you step on the pedal it probably is OK. If you can't get release the clutch is stuck. Shift into 5th with the parking brake on and release the clutch. That should break it loose.


Thanks David,

The clutch fork travels back & forth, and I used a borescope to watch the throwout bearing engage the pressure plate. I'll try a few of these things this evening.

[DMC-Ron]

Thanks David,

The clutch fork travels back & forth, and I used a borescope to watch the throwout bearing engage the pressure plate. I'll try a few of these things this evening.

With the borescope, were you able to verify that the clutch fork and throwout bearing completely disengaged from the pressure plate? Could something in the installation be causing the fort and throwout to be slipping the clutch even with the pedal relaxed?

Ron

[Rich_NYS]

With the borescope, were you able to verify that the clutch fork and throwout bearing completely disengaged from the pressure plate? Could something in the installation be causing the fort and throwout to be slipping the clutch even with the pedal relaxed?

Ron


I was/am thinking that it isn't/wasn't, so I made a video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dhBkhUjpIQ



Taking a break for dinner, but here's where I'm at:

I put the wheels on, then put it in gear and confirmed I can spin the wheels by hand when it's in any gear (I'm considering this to be abnormal.)

I just put it on the ground, put it in first, and I can't move the car....WTF. (I'm considering this behavior to be normal.)

After dinner I'll start it and see what it does.

[Andrew]

The clutch appears to be moving correctly. With the engine running and the car in gear on jack stands does the wheel spin?

The ability to turn the wheels by hand (with the engine off) while both rear wheels are off the ground is a function of the differential. i would try putting the car on the ground, blocking the wheels and see if you can get the car to move under its own power.

[Rich_NYS]

The clutch appears to be moving correctly. With the engine running and the car in gear on jack stands does the wheel spin?

The ability to turn the wheels by hand (with the engine off) while both rear wheels are off the ground is a function of the differential. i would try putting the car on the ground, blocking the wheels and see if you can get the car to move under its own power.

Wheels spun all the time even when in neutral, with no change when I put it in any gear. I could stop the wheel by hand.

Car is on the ground and I'm headed out now to see what it does with the engine running....be back soon.

[Rich_NYS]

With the car on the ground, everything is fine....WTF.

I just backed it in & out of my garage. I'm dumbfounded.

When it was on jackstands, nothing seemed normal. With it on the ground, it's fine......WTH?!

So here's a list of those who told me to put the damn car on the ground & see what happens:

Luke, Steve, Shep, Ron, my Dad, David T, [probably] Michael, Andrew.....etc. LOL!

*Sigh*


So, I'm actually still on schedule after all. From here, it's mostly interior & cosmetic....BRAH!!!

[DMCMW Dave]

It may have been stuck released (would be a very unusual situation) but since it corrected itself that may have been the issue. Of course when you parked it 20 months ago it was not in the released position, so if it stuck it would have been the first time you pushed it and it hit the "rusty" part of the splines. You got lucky as none of the other causes are simple/cheap.

For Future Reference here are the other issues I've seen that act exactly as you describe:
--100% worn clutch (i.e. no facing left at all)
--broken input shaft or input splines on main shaft
--stripped input shaft coupler
And now for the really strange one:
--stripped wheel hub splines on either side This won't exactly mimic a disengaged clutch as the car would he hard to shift with the pedal off the floor, but it may not be obvious. (you can verify this one by putting the car in gear with the engine running and observing that the car does not move, then look under the car and you'll notice one of the axles turning even though the corresponding wheel isn't).

[Rich_NYS]

Thanks everyone!

[Andrew]

With the car on the ground, everything is fine....WTF.

I just backed it in & out of my garage. I'm dumbfounded.

When it was on jackstands, nothing seemed normal. With it on the ground, it's fine......WTH?!

So here's a list of those who told me to put the damn car on the ground & see what happens:

Luke, Steve, Shep, Ron, my Dad, David T, [probably] Michael, Andrew.....etc. LOL!

*Sigh*


So, I'm actually still on schedule after all. From here, it's mostly interior & cosmetic....BRAH!!!

Congrats on getting it moving! The best car problems are the ones that fully resolve themselves. I often find myself jumping to the worst possible conclusion, in many cases that can be correct. At the very least it's always a good idea to plan for the worst. However, sometimes the fix can be a lot more simple than ever anticipated.

Just this week I was sure that the trorque converter on my daily driver 85 Toronado had developed a massive shudder. At the same time I was having electrical problems due to a loose positive connection at the starter. In the process of sliding under the car to tighten the connection, I grabbed the passenger side halfshaft to scoot myself under the car. In doing so, I discovered that the half shaft carrier bearing bracket was extremly loose. As it turns out, one bracket bolt was missing and the other was very loose. After replacing the one bolt and tightening the other, the shudder was gone! I wish I could attribute this repair to great diagnoistic skills, but sometimes dumb luck is just as effective! Either way, I'll take it! :-)