How long before attempting restart after flooding engine?

[DaraSue]

Well, I drove it to my aunt's house, about 8 miles/20 minutes on hilly surface roads. Left it parked for about 4 hours, then it cranked but the engine wouldn't start. I tried pumping the gas which had worked for some hard starts in the past but it still didn't start and I could smell fuel so I think I flooded it. I didn't see any visible leaks. Some other car pages say it can be 20 minutes to several hours to days before it dries out. How long should I wait to try again? I'm in the San Diego area. It's currently 57 degrees out.

[dmcnc]

I'd unplug the Cold Start Valve, open the throttle for a minute or so, and crank again. Otherwise you could run down this troubleshooting guide:
http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=38986&d=1452110122

[DaraSue]

Sorry for the stupid question, but by "open the throttle", you don't mean step on the gas, I have to move the actual throttle at the back of the engine?

It's been about an hour and a half, and I'm not smelling the gas anymore.

[DaraSue]

Also do I do the plug swap as detailed here http://dmctalk.org/archive/index.php/t-962.html or just take the cap off the blue one?

[Michael]

Also do I do the plug swap as detailed here http://dmctalk.org/archive/index.php/t-962.html or just take the cap off the blue one?

Yes just take the plug off, you don't want to introduce more fuel. The plug swap is to force the CSV to fire in a hot start scenario.

[dmcnc]

No worries, yes step on the gas and leave it pressed for a bit. Hopefully some of that gas will have evaporated and made its way out by now.


Sorry for the stupid question, but by "open the throttle", you don't mean step on the gas, I have to move the actual throttle at the back of the engine?

It's been about an hour and a half, and I'm not smelling the gas anymore.

[DaraSue]

Well, after all that, it started up when I pushed the gas all the way in and cranked it (it was getting late and I figured if that didn't work I'd try messing with the CSV tomorrow), but it took some effort and then it still smelled rich and hunted for a few minutes. I drove around some hilly back roads for about 15-20 minutes and didn't notice any obvious missing or power loss so I drove back to my cousin's house (8 mioes, uphill most of the way). I did notice the idle was slightly uneven but it was a variation of probably less than 100 rpm. Is this anything to worry about? It might have been doing this before and I'm just noticing more now. But they adjusted the idle at DMCCA and when I first picked it up it was just below 1000 and now it's just a hair above.

For future reference, if I disconnect the CSV plug, at what point do I attach it again? As soon as it starts?

[DaraSue]

Update: I just took my cousin out for a ride in it, and it started right up. It had been sitting for about two hours after running on the previous test drive and drive back here. Ran fine, or at least not egregiously not fine, for another ~15 minute up and downhill drive.

[dmcnc]

CSV should always be plugged in, otherwise you'll have a hard time getting it started when cold. The question is, what flooded your car? If the CSV is open beyond the initial cold crank then you have more troubleshooting ahead. http://support.delorean.com/kb/a60/cold-start-issues.aspx

I had a similar issue, but it's best you run down your own troubleshooting algorithm before you chase the wrong issue. Glad you got back on the road!


Well, after all that, it started up when I pushed the gas all the way in and cranked it (it was getting late and I figured if that didn't work I'd try messing with the CSV tomorrow), but it took some effort and then it still smelled rich and hunted for a few minutes. I drove around some hilly back roads for about 15-20 minutes and didn't notice any obvious missing or power loss so I drove back to my cousin's house (8 mioes, uphill most of the way). I did notice the idle was slightly uneven but it was a variation of probably less than 100 rpm. Is this anything to worry about? It might have been doing this before and I'm just noticing more now. But they adjusted the idle at DMCCA and when I first picked it up it was just below 1000 and now it's just a hair above.

For future reference, if I disconnect the CSV plug, at what point do I attach it again? As soon as it starts?

[DMCVegas]

The Cold Start Valve should always remained plugged in with the Blue Plug, and the Warm Up Regulator should always remain plugged in with the Gray Plug.

There is already another thread in progress talking about Hot Starting (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?14861-Anyone-have-any-info-on-the-hot-start-relay&p=214581&viewfull=1#post214581), so that would be a good reference to start at if you're curious about what is going on.

In a nutshell, when you have a hot start issue because the car failed to maintain it's rest fuel pressure, and isn't cold enough to trigger the CSV, THAT is when you can swap plugs with the WUR to get the car going (the WUR always has 12V with the engine on). You're pretty much just forcing the CSV to act as a crude carburetor to run the engine while fuel pressure builds back up. The problem is that if you leave that thing plugged in for too long, it's going to flood the engine and stall out. So if you ever need to perform this task, set your parking brake, and as soon as the engine fires, jump out, run back, and unplug the Gray plug from the CSV IMMEDIATELY! If you don't, the engine dies.

[DaraSue]

Pretty sure it flooded because I pumped the gas too hard/too many times after the first unsuccessful start, so I guess I'm trying to figure out why it didn't start on the first try? It's taken a couple tries to start occasionally in the past and I want to say it hasn't been first thing in the morning but I'm not 100% sure. I do generally let it sit for either less than 2 hours or more than 8 because if I'm stopping it's usually either a rest stop, work, or home/hotel for the night. But there have been a couple times I took it out halfway through my shift and I kind of think some of the incidents may have been on those occasions but maybe I'm misremembering. It hasn't happened consistently enough to really pin down.

I did have a similar issue in my CRX during cold, wet weather and that went away after I stopped pumping the gas before starting after the first start of the day and/or started putting Heet in it during the winter, but that's carbureted so not sure the root cause would be the same.

Edit: poking around the blue and gray plugs this morning, I did notice that they wiggled a bit when attached. Is that normal?

[DMCVegas]

Nope. This is fuel injection. Even more to the point, mechanical fuel injection. Pumping the gas pedal when the car is at rest doesn't do anything. All that happens is the throttle plates move, and nothing else. The reason is that fuel delivery is based upon airflow into the engine. Which cannot occur unless the pistons are actively moving to create a vacuum. So pressing the pedal does nothing.

This bears repeating: You did not flood your engine because you cannot flood your engine.

Now because of that metering via airflow, the Owner's Manual does state that you are supposed to press and hold the gas pedal down ¼ of the way before and during cranking. That allows extra air and fuel in to start the vehicle. Now your CRX may look like it has similar symptoms, but it is definitely not the same problem. Your Honda has a carburetor.

Some people will tell you NOT to touch the gas pedal. That is fine on EFI systems that use electronics rather than mechanical components to meter fuel being delivered. But again, this is mechanical fuel injection. So hold that gas pedal down while cranking, and do it without worry.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Nope. This is fuel injection. Even more to the point, mechanical fuel injection. Pumping the gas pedal when the car is at rest doesn't do anything. All that happens is the throttle plates move, and nothing else. The reason is that fuel delivery is based upon airflow into the engine. Which cannot occur unless the pistons are actively moving to create a vacuum. So pressing the pedal does nothing.

This bears repeating: You did not flood your engine because you cannot flood your engine..

+1
Only a carb with an accelerator pump will flood the engine with constant pumping.

I never touch the throttle on my D when I start it.

One other thing holding the throttle a little will do is enable vacuum advance if the engine is already warmed up. Not that I think that will make much difference when starting.

[David T]

If you are having a hard time starting the car when it is cold it is not because you flooded it, it is because it is too LEAN! Try the plug swap and if it starts right up you need to fix the cold start valve system. If the problem is occurring when hot and starts up when you do the plug swap it is because you aren't holding rest pressure, probably a bad accumulator.

[DaraSue]

I'm at DMCCA getting the accumulator checked right now before I hit the road. I hadn't been doing the 1/4 gas pedal thing on startup consistently but I had noticed the other times this happened, it would start up when I tried giving it some gas so maybe I was accidentally doing what I was supposed to...

[DaraSue]

They ran it a little and checked it out and he didn't find anything obviously wrong. He said if it keeps happening I should consider replacing the injectors. FWIW, it started up just fine this morning. The adventure continues...

[DMCVegas]

One other thing holding the throttle a little will do is enable vacuum advance if the engine is already warmed up. Not that I think that will make much difference when starting.

Take a look at this, on page 14.
https://cdn.preterhuman.net/texts/automotive/delorean/ownmanr1.pdf

Then take a look at these instructions as well:
http://volvo.custhelp.com/app/manuals/OwnersManual/om_id/1656

And page 14 here as well:
http://www.w-124.info/w124/!!%20Mercedes-Benz%20W124%20(200,%20200E,%20230E,%20260E,%20300E ,%20230CE,%20300CE,%20260E4MATIC,%20300E4MATIC)%20 Owner's%20Manual.pdf

It's universally recommended on all cars with K-Jetronic to press the pedal down during engine cranking. Although it appears that as time went on BOSCH began having manufacturers refine the engine starting procedures with K-Jetronic. They continue to recommend pressing the pedal, and even farther down. BUT, they then revise things to only do it on subsequent cranks when the car will not start. Which may have been the way to cope with starting issues without the use of the HSR. If you're running one of your own units, that would explain why you don't have the same starting problems.

In any case, it does make sense. Pressing the pedal down would apply greater line pressure to the injectors to purge them that much faster to get the car running. In the case as well that the CSV sprayed too much fuel during a prolonged cranking, giving the engine more air would help to counter that. Most of all though, holding down the pedal would cause a spike in RPMs. Increased RPMs would keep the engine going for a longer period of time, and extend the recovery time of a fuel system that needs to purge air out of itself to run properly.



They ran it a little and checked it out and he didn't find anything obviously wrong. He said if it keeps happening I should consider replacing the injectors. FWIW, it started up just fine this morning. The adventure continues...

Unless your injectors fail testing (Spray Pattern, Minimal Cracking PSI, Flow Rate, and/or Leak Down), there is no need to replace them. What kind of tests did they perform on your car?

[DaraSue]

Unless your injectors fail testing (Spray Pattern, Minimal Cracking PSI, Flow Rate, and/or Leak Down), there is no need to replace them. What kind of tests did they perform on your car?

I can't remember what it was called or if he specifically told me, but I saw he had a meter with some lines hooked up to the engine on the driver's side.

It ran fine on the drive from Huntington Beach to Vegas yesterday, but I didn't make any stops longer than 20 minutes. I'll try to be more fastidious about noting the conditions if it happens again.

[DMCVegas]

Did it look something like this:

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51YUCnKT0jL._SX300_.jpg

[DaraSue]

Did it look something like this:

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51YUCnKT0jL._SX300_.jpg

Yeah, I think so.

[DMCVegas]

Yeah, they probably just did a quick pressure test to see if/how much the system leaked down. If it passed, you're most likely just fine. If there was something wrong with your injectors, you would need an injector popper for starters to test them out. But for now, I wouldn't worry about the injectors.

How has the car been behaving since?

[DaraSue]

Yeah, they probably just did a quick pressure test to see if/how much the system leaked down. If it passed, you're most likely just fine. If there was something wrong with your injectors, you would need an injector popper for starters to test them out. But for now, I wouldn't worry about the injectors.

How has the car been behaving since?

Took two tries to start when I stopped for gas and then got on the internet for 10 minutes in central UT, but other than that, it's been fine. I still haven't gotten in the habit of pressing the gas pedal when I start and 9 out of 10 times it starts up pretty fast. Maybe I'm doing something inconsistently with how I'm pushing the clutch or the brake?

I did get a whiff of gas a few times, usually when going uphill, but IDK if I just put my gas cap on loose or something, b/c it didn't seem to happen as much after I filled up the 2nd time. I know the fans can blow fumes in if the cap is worn or loose, but it wasn't running that hot and the cap is new. Last time it was a loose clamp, although it was doing it all the time then. Probably won't hurt to get it looked at again once my other car is back together.

[dmcnc]

I'd do two things:

Check the gas tank around the fuel pump seal for leaks (gas smell issue) and check if your CSV is firing during hot starts. Once the engine is hot turn the engine off, unscrew the CSV from the brass pipe and place it in a container, seal the brass pipe (tape usually works fine) and crank start the car for a second or two. If the engine is hot and you have gas in the container, something is wrong with the CSV circuit (CSV valve, TTS, wiring).

[DMCVegas]

Took two tries to start when I stopped for gas and then got on the internet for 10 minutes in central UT, but other than that, it's been fine. I still haven't gotten in the habit of pressing the gas pedal when I start and 9 out of 10 times it starts up pretty fast. Maybe I'm doing something inconsistently with how I'm pushing the clutch or the brake?

That right there is the most common pitfall when it comes to troubleshooting. Looking for answers by trying to invent other problems. The answer here of course is a "No" to that question.


I did get a whiff of gas a few times, usually when going uphill, but IDK if I just put my gas cap on loose or something, b/c it didn't seem to happen as much after I filled up the 2nd time. I know the fans can blow fumes in if the cap is worn or loose, but it wasn't running that hot and the cap is new. Last time it was a loose clamp, although it was doing it all the time then. Probably won't hurt to get it looked at again once my other car is back together.

Do me a favor: Drive the car for about 30 minutes or so on surface streets, and get the car warmed up. Not just to the point where your fans come on, but where they have cycled on and off a couple of times in some traffic. Stay off the interstate, and do this preferably on at least a warm day.

Once you have the car nice and warmed up, idle it in the driveway where the fans come on. Then I want you to remove the gas cap and shove a pencil or something down into the Inlet Restrictor to force that little metal spring loaded flap out of the way. When you do that, tell me if you feel a big "WHOOSH!" of gas fumes blowing up and out of the filler neck.

[DaraSue]

Well, it just did it again. First start of the day, I tried starting with it in neutral and the gas pedal pushed halfway in, first time it wouldn't start, 2nd time it tried to catch, kept dropping off and trying to quit, finally died . There's a new symptom: I'm hearing a whirring noise from the back. It's not the antenna b/c the radio is turned off.

Edit: gave it one more try with the pedal floored ( I think that's what worked last time) and it caught, then died when I let off the gas. I'm still getting a gas smell in the back after attempting to start.

[David T]

Well, it just did it again. First start of the day, I tried starting with it in neutral and the gas pedal pushed halfway in, first time it wouldn't start, 2nd time it tried to catch, kept dropping off and trying to quit, finally died . There's a new symptom: I'm hearing a whirring noise from the back. It's not the antenna b/c the radio is turned off.

Edit: gave it one more try with the pedal floored ( I think that's what worked last time) and it caught, then died when I let off the gas. I'm still getting a gas smell in the back after attempting to start.

Next time you try starting the motor and it doesn't start quickly try the plug swap and see what happens. Make sure there is nothing plugged into the hot start relay plug by the fuse block behind the passenger seat.

[DaraSue]

Next time you try starting the motor and it doesn't start quickly try the plug swap and see what happens. Make sure there is nothing plugged into the hot start relay plug by the fuse block behind the passenger seat.

I tried the plug swap earlier and again just now and it did the same thing, started to run and then died when I took my foot off the gas. This last time I noticed the whirring noise and also a clicking that sounded like it was coming from the rear passenger's side.

Here's my fuse compartment, it was updated by the seller so IDK if it's exactly the same as the original. I was looking at this one for reference and it looks different than mine: http://www.deloreanautoparts.com/delorean-parts/images/relay-comp-tb.jpg

4945349454494554945649457

I tried to look at the bulkhead wiring too but the cover didn't want to come all the way off. What I could see through the gap looked like it might be original wiring.

[DaraSue]

I was looking at the terminals on the driver's side in the back, and this doesn't look right:

49510 49511

The plug on the lower right looks like it's melted. According to this (http://www.deloreanautoparts.com/delorean-parts/images/resistor-original.jpg), it's the wire to the coil. Now what?

[Bitsyncmaster]

I was looking at the terminals on the driver's side in the back, and this doesn't look right:

49510 49511

The plug on the lower right looks like it's melted. According to this (http://www.deloreanautoparts.com/delorean-parts/images/resistor-original.jpg), it's the wire to the coil. Now what?

Bad connection caused to much heat. That resistor get hot anyway. You will need a new terminal crimped on. You probably have enough good wire to crimp a new terminal on the end. That could be the cause of your starting problem.

[DaraSue]

Bad connection caused to much heat. That resistor get hot anyway. You will need a new terminal crimped on. You probably have enough good wire to crimp a new terminal on the end. That could be the cause of your starting problem.

Thanks, by bad connection, you mean it was probably just loose?

What's the name of these terminals, so I know what to look for?

[Bitsyncmaster]

Thanks, by bad connection, you mean it was probably just loose?

What's the name of these terminals, so I know what to look for?

Loose or dirty connections will produce heat with high currents in the circuit.

Those are standard 1/4" wide flat sockets. You can find them in auto parts stores. It wont look like the original black one.

[DaraSue]

I tried re-terminating the wire with the melted plug, but it still wouldn't start, and I'm still hearing the clicking noise from the coil area, which I'm guessing means I need a new coil. How do I get the black plug off the top of the old one? Does it just pull off? It didn't want to come loose when I tried wiggling it around and I don't want to just yank on it and risk breaking something...

49562
I bought this coil last night but comparing the specs to the ones in the service manual I'm not sure it's right, and Danny @CA recommends using the Bosch one.

[dn010]

Is that a flamethrower coil? It caused all kinds of problems for me, OEM coil cleared everything up. (See post 22: http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?13293-Replacement-Coil-and-Spark-Plug-Wire-Questions/page3)

The coil wire on top of the coil just pulls straight up and off. Try twisting it a bit before pulling it up, it won't simply fall out of the coil and it will have resistance trying to pull it out.

Also, when you try to start and it won't fire, try pulling the air filter housing off and have either someone hold the plate open a small amount or put a slim screwdriver or similar between the metering plate & unit to hold it open a little (just make sure it isn't a tiny screwdriver that can fall into the unit) and then see if it fires.

The clicking sound - if it clicks repeatedly every second or so for a good few seconds after you return the key to run position from start, would be the RPM relay. Mine would do this for at least 5 seconds on occasion when my engine failed to fire, sometimes it wouldn't do it at all.

[DaraSue]

Is that a flamethrower coil? It caused all kinds of problems for me, OEM coil cleared everything up. (See post 22: http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?13293-Replacement-Coil-and-Spark-Plug-Wire-Questions/page3)

The coil wire on top of the coil just pulls straight up and off. Try twisting it a bit before pulling it up, it won't simply fall out of the coil and it will have resistance trying to pull it out.

Also, when you try to start and it won't fire, try pulling the air filter housing off and have either someone hold the plate open a small amount or put a slim screwdriver or similar between the metering plate & unit to hold it open a little (just make sure it isn't a tiny screwdriver that can fall into the unit) and then see if it fires.

The clicking sound - if it clicks repeatedly every second or so for a good few seconds after you return the key to run position from start, would be the RPM relay. Mine would do this for at least 5 seconds on occasion when my engine failed to fire, sometimes it wouldn't do it at all.

The coil is an MSD Blaster 2, but I think I'm going to take it back and wait to get a stock one from CA.

If the clicking is the relay not the coil, maybe my coil is adequate and I did the wire wrong. How much should I have stripped off the end, for the blue terminals? Looking at it, I think the end of the copper wire isn't quite touching the prong that sticks off the resistor - is it supposed to be?

[DaraSue]

49565

Here's the terminal. It was my first time crimping and I think the crimper I got at the auto parts store wasn't that great. I practiced on the segment I cut off and got it on the first try, but this one took like 5 tries to get it to stay on. :banghead:

[dn010]

Usually those cheap crimpers aren't that great to begin with but it does look it's done and it's solid. As long as the wire is crimped, the copper strands don't necessarily need to make contact with the resistor blade, just take a look at factory crimps and you'll get an idea of how it should look. Try to gently pull the wire from the crimped connector and if it pops off you know the crimp was no good.

[DaraSue]

Just gave it another try. First time I gave up just as it might have been starting to catch, 2nd time it caught but then died as soon as I let off the gas. Does this still sound like it's probably the ignition or possibly something else?