Vented Front Brakes - Miata

[Josh]

After my engine swap, I always found the brakes to be a little lacking. I began researching brake upgrades and found the DMCEU vented rotors which many of us know about and they are a decent setup. However, I do not like the idea of only being able to source your rotors from one place, and they are a bit pricey.

Some other downfalls (I feel) of the stock setup are:
-The hub and bearing needs to be removed to change the rotor
-The rotor is only held in by 4 small bolts
-The calipers are very old and hard to source (damaged my rear caliper last year and had a very hard time finding another)
-Small and limited brake pad options

So I did some research and found several candidates of cars to donate parts. I wanted a car with a similar setup (no fwd) with cheap and common parts. I ended up settling on the Mazda Miata.
I had a Miata front subframe in my shed from another project, so that influenced my choice as well, lol.
I ended up utilizing the rotors, calipers, and hubs.

Some benefits of the Miata setup:
-Vented rotors!
-Inexpensive parts (Calipers, rotors, and hubs almost cost the same as a set of just delorean rotors)
-Easy to source parts
-Larger pads with MANY options
-Floating Calipers
-Conventional Rotor Mounting
-Many options of upsized rotors and calipers if you move to a larger wheel.

These parts did not just bolt on. I tried to do as little modifications as possible, but it was a little involved. I designed and had a new caliper bracket laser cut which simply bolts in place of the stock caliper bracket. The Miata hub bearing is a smaller inner diameter and a little longer than the stock delorean bearing. To make this work I had the spindle diameter machined down, and the hub spacer shortened. Once these three things were done, the parts simply bolted up.

I hope you guys find this interesting/useful.
I still need to plumb in the brakes (parts on order) and fit the dust caps so I can retain my speedometer.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k38/jschatte/17211963_1594464460567061_9014468532056126635_o.jp g

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k38/jschatte/17200002_1594705283876312_460376612_o.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k38/jschatte/17097495_1594662327213941_5794052488767140620_o.jp g

[Farrar]

Really cool! Shame no one else can do this mod without a machine shop and spare 36mm 12-pt. socket. ;-)

Are you happy with the braking? Are you still using the stock master cylinder?

[Will F.]

^ Agreed, It still goes with why you wanted more easily accessible parts. But to even get it on the car you need full machine work. lol Still pretty trick though.

Will

[Josh]

Master size doesn't need to change as the piston bore is sized similarly to stock.
There is machining required but it is about 30 minutes worth, very minimal.

There is another vented brake option out there without machining modifications so if a machine shop scares you away that certainly is the way to go. This opens up a lot more options in terms of brake pads and upsized rotors and calipers though. And of course off the shelf easily obtainable parts.

I dont have any testing time, there is about 2 feet of snow right now and sub zero tempuratures...

[opethmike]

Josh, can I have a hug?

[Mark D]

Great job on the front brake upgrade and thanks for sharing how you did it. I bet if you put a small kit together for the machined spindles, spacers, and custom caliper bracket you could recoup your initial cost with a few sales. Once you get a chance to get the car on the road you'll have to let us all know how the new setup performs.

[Josh]

Great job on the front brake upgrade and thanks for sharing how you did it. I bet if you put a small kit together for the machined spindles, spacers, and custom caliper bracket you could recoup your initial cost with a few sales. Once you get a chance to get the car on the road you'll have to let us all know how the new setup performs.

Thanks Mark!

I want to get some testing done before anything like that happens. Of course i would need interest as well.
Clint and i have been chatting about this as well and he sourced an alternative hub that does not require machining of the spindles. Which would make this even easier. Hopefully he chimes in.

[vwdmc16]

That's right, Ive found a nearly identical but possibly more suitable bearing hub that literally slips right on the unmodified Delorean spindle, since its larger and 1mm longer it should also be stronger. A cut down or new bearing spacer is still required but is equally effortless to swap out. The stud flange is also thicker without changing the rotor back spacing, Oh and it's about 1/2 the price or the Mazda unit! So all round it appears to be a great solution.

Prototype #2 will be going on my car and I can begin testing here in California sooner than Josh can with his local climate and transmission work.

The final step will be figuring out a dust cap for the driver side to drive the angle drive, Im thinking a 3D printed ABS cap may be the solution if a Kit is developed but for prototype testing a hand welded steel cap with a section of square to drive the cable will work.

[Gfrank]

^ Agreed, It still goes with why you wanted more easily accessible parts. But to even get it on the car you need full machine work. lol Still pretty trick though.

Will

Machining isn't on wear items..

[Mark D]

Wow that's excellent news to hear about the new hub that doesn't require spindle modifications. That will save a lot of cost and make the install simpler since it no longer involves removing the spindles and angle drive. Those large hub nuts can be difficult to remove and most people don't have a 1 1/4" (32mm) open ended wrench laying around to remove the angle drive nut.

After some initial testing is done I'd be interested in installing this setup on my car.

[Henrik]

I'm interested too. I am about to start a complete overhaul of my front suspension and have purchased:

DMCEU's SS LCA
DMCEU's polyurethane bushings
DriveStainless's adjustable ride height springs and adjustable dampening for the shocks
New balljoints, tie rod ends etc


The only thing remaining on my list is to settle on which alternative to go with for the upgraded brakes so the above research provides an interesting alternative and comes at a good time. Keep me in the loop!

[Josh]

I really appreciate the interest guys. I will be sending parts out to Clint here shortly so we can get the testing in motion. I look forward to hear his findings.

[Josh]

I'm interested too. I am about to start a complete overhaul of my front suspension and have purchased:

DMCEU's SS LCA
DMCEU's polyurethane bushings
DriveStainless's adjustable ride height springs and adjustable dampening for the shocks
New balljoints, tie rod ends etc


The only thing remaining on my list is to settle on which alternative to go with for the upgraded brakes so the above research provides an interesting alternative and comes at a good time. Keep me in the loop!

That will be a pretty awesome suspension setup. I have heard very good things about Matt's coilovers.

[Henrik]

A question on the subject of DMCEU's vented rotors:

Ed offers three Power Brake Kits (http://www.delorean.eu/catalog/index.php?cPath=20_144) - all with vented rotors for the front.

Now, Brake Kits #2 and #3 clearly come with spacers for the stock calipers to accommodate the additional thickness of the vented rotors, but what about the calipers for Kit #1?: Has he designed and produced all new castings? I e-mailed him and asked if him:
Hi Ed,
A question regarding the calipers in your Power Brakes Kit 1: Are they:
1) Stock calipers + spacers, or are they
2) Wider (non-stock), calipers?

He replied:
" They are wider, so no adaptor kit."

The way I interpret his reply is that he has come up with an entirely new design and casting for the calipers in Brake Kit #1. Quite impressive if that is the case. Am I interpreting this correctly?

Thanks,

Henrik

[Josh]

They may be the Girling calipers off the Ford Capri. Certain models came with vented discs.
Im not seeing a benefit to these calipers over the stock calipers with a spacer, unless the bore is larger. Which I doubt as the rotors are smaller than the stock delorean rotors.

[Henrik]

They may be the Girling calipers off the Ford Capri.
Ah - didn't think about that possibility.

Im not seeing a benefit to these calipers over the stock calipers with a spacer...
The wider, non-spacer calipers have one less joint than the spacer ditto, so the one benefit would be greater integrity, reduced potential for leaks etc.

...unless the bore is larger.
I'll ask Ed.

...the rotors are smaller than the stock delorean rotors.
The diameter of the vented rotor is less than stock? Not meaning to doubt you but how do you know that? I'd have to ask Ed about that too.

Thanks,

Henrik

[Josh]

I am referring to the Capri vented front rotors which are 245mm in diameter. The stock delorean brakes are 254mm

Eds rotors are the same diameter as stock.

As for leak resistance and structural integrity of the caliper, I wouldn't be too concerned. There are many other things in the front suspension that will fall apart before the caliper does! Spacer or not. In my opinion.

[Henrik]

Aha - gotcha.

By chance, what is the diameter for the Miata rotors you are using?

[Josh]

I am using all NB 1.8 parts, so 255mm diameter rotors. In 2001 they introduced bigger brakes that were 270mm (with larger bore calipers and bigger pads) that can be bought new for the same price as the smaller brakes but they do not fit under a 14" rim.

[Henrik]

Thanks Josh and Clint for pursuing this. Can't wait to see how it turns out.

[Henrik]

They may be the Girling calipers off the Ford Capri. Certain models came with vented discs.

Just to close the loop on this:

I circled back with Ed who told me that the wider (non-spacer) caliper in Brake Kit 1 is indeed a new design. Dimensions are identical to the stock caliper, including same piston diameter, but the width is obviously increased. It was/is produced by the same UK company that made the stock D calipers.

I am impressed that he produced a new casting without much fanfare or promotion. He just went ahead and did it.

[Josh]

Just to close the loop on this:

I circled back with Ed who told me that the wider (non-spacer) caliper in Brake Kit 1 is indeed a new design. Dimensions are identical to the stock caliper, including same piston diameter, but the width is obviously increased. It was/is produced by the same UK company that made the stock D calipers.

I am impressed that he produced a new casting without much fanfare or promotion. He just went ahead and did it.

Weird. The setup to make a new casting can be very expensive, I know from work it can range from $5,000 to $10,000. Hopefully he can recoup his costs, or is getting a much better deal.

[nkemp]

Are we sure it was made specifically for the D? Or is it used on some other vehicle and simply fits the D?

[FABombjoy]

Weird. The setup to make a new casting can be very expensive, I know from work it can range from $5,000 to $10,000. Hopefully he can recoup his costs, or is getting a much better deal.
Brand new "import" Girling Type 16/16P/16PB calipers have been available for a while:

https://www.bpnorthwest.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=16p+caliper

I'm not sure what it takes to make a casting deeper but perhaps the bulk of costs were already covered?

[Farrar]

Just to close the loop on this:

I circled back with Ed

Sorry, but what do these two things mean exactly? Close the loop? Does that mean no more information here on DMCTalk? Circle back? What is inside the circle? Are we outside the circle?

[FABombjoy]

Farrar with the deep dive into subtext. Hopefully Henrik can touch base while the rest of the team is in a holding pattern.

IT-isms. I just Dilberted a little in my mouth.

[klaus5980]

Here is my (very) old 'Brake-Upgrade'-Page from around 2000...

http://www.steinerklaus.de/dmc/brake/

At that time we hadn't vented Discs so I removed the middle part of the new caliper. Now you can leave it and buy the vented discs from Ed.
The bad news: these calipers are only available in Europe, not in the US because Ford Granadas were only sold in the EU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Granada_(Europe)

[vwdmc16]

Update for you:

Protoype #2 is on the road for testing. Everything has been going great so far. The set up bolts on very easily, both sides can be installed and bled in under an hour. Again 100% BOLT ON and reversible. The final parts list is:

1: pair of cut down DMC spindle spacers (These are cheap to buy and replace to go back, if this became a kit, these would become a core item)
2: pair of new wheel Hubs ready to be installed
3: pair of 1994-1998 1.8L Mazda Mx5 front rotors
4: Pair of 1994-1998 1.8L Mazda Mx5 Front brake Calipers (Reman or New available) with anti-rattle hardware kit
5: 1 Set of Brake pads ( many compounds available)
6: Pair of wheel hub centering rings ( one will be modified to drive the angle drive)
7: pair of -3 AN stainless braided brake hoses to connect stock DMC hard line to MX5 caliper

The following is reused:
1: Dmc spindle nut and washer
2: Brake dust shield ( small section will have to be trimmed for larger caliper) alternatively it can be left off.


Here are some pictures:

Powdercoated brackets, spacer, and hub centering ring:

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c396/vwdmc16/dmc%20brake%20upgrades/20170502_072627_zps04xzn5p0.jpg


Spindle spacer being cut down:

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c396/vwdmc16/dmc%20brake%20upgrades/20170430_144107_zpsvhgstsju.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c396/vwdmc16/dmc%20brake%20upgrades/20170430_144541_zps9pzpcmia.jpg


Brake pad comparison, Im starting out with some basic Bosch Premium pads:

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c396/vwdmc16/dmc%20brake%20upgrades/20170429_185338_zpszrvl9hvi.jpg (http://s31.photobucket.com/user/vwdmc16/media/dmc%20brake%20upgrades/20170429_185338_zpszrvl9hvi.jpg.html)


Stock rotors vs MX5 vented, gain about 5mm and a bit lighter too:

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c396/vwdmc16/dmc%20brake%20upgrades/20170429_184958_zpsqyhfvmhx.jpg (http://s31.photobucket.com/user/vwdmc16/media/dmc%20brake%20upgrades/20170429_184958_zpsqyhfvmhx.jpg.html)

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c396/vwdmc16/dmc%20brake%20upgrades/20170429_184828_zpsdctbg2ue.jpg (http://s31.photobucket.com/user/vwdmc16/media/dmc%20brake%20upgrades/20170429_184828_zpsdctbg2ue.jpg.html)

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c396/vwdmc16/dmc%20brake%20upgrades/20170429_184811_zpsvmftt6zb.jpg (http://s31.photobucket.com/user/vwdmc16/media/dmc%20brake%20upgrades/20170429_184811_zpsvmftt6zb.jpg.html)


New hub and rotor with caliper inside wheel, its a tight fit:

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c396/vwdmc16/dmc%20brake%20upgrades/20170429_120130_zpschujhxcl.jpg (http://s31.photobucket.com/user/vwdmc16/media/dmc%20brake%20upgrades/20170429_120130_zpschujhxcl.jpg.html)
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c396/vwdmc16/dmc%20brake%20upgrades/20170429_120152_zpsriohpjya.jpg (http://s31.photobucket.com/user/vwdmc16/media/dmc%20brake%20upgrades/20170429_120152_zpsriohpjya.jpg.html)


Before and after blasting my used calipers that I had ( remans and new are easy to come by):


http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c396/vwdmc16/dmc%20brake%20upgrades/20170428_172737_zpsgfmsimyg.jpg (http://s31.photobucket.com/user/vwdmc16/media/dmc%20brake%20upgrades/20170428_172737_zpsgfmsimyg.jpg.html)


Bolting it up and checking for leaks:

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c396/vwdmc16/dmc%20brake%20upgrades/20170506_190745_zpse73tnv3l.jpg (http://s31.photobucket.com/user/vwdmc16/media/dmc%20brake%20upgrades/20170506_190745_zpse73tnv3l.jpg.html)


Fully assembled and ready to test:


http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c396/vwdmc16/dmc%20brake%20upgrades/20170502_230940_zps2a5gtesb.jpg (http://s31.photobucket.com/user/vwdmc16/media/dmc%20brake%20upgrades/20170502_230940_zps2a5gtesb.jpg.html)

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c396/vwdmc16/dmc%20brake%20upgrades/20170502_230932_zpsge5lml5s.jpg (http://s31.photobucket.com/user/vwdmc16/media/dmc%20brake%20upgrades/20170502_230932_zpsge5lml5s.jpg.html)

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c396/vwdmc16/dmc%20brake%20upgrades/20170502_233338_zpsrbhhti0l.jpg (http://s31.photobucket.com/user/vwdmc16/media/dmc%20brake%20upgrades/20170502_233338_zpsrbhhti0l.jpg.html)

[Josh]

Thanks Clint! Very detailed update.

[Drive Stainless]

When do we get to find out which wheel hubs are used?

[Josh]

When do we get to find out which wheel hubs are used?

1990-2003 Ford Escort REAR hubs

[vwdmc16]

Ok 500 miles of testing on this set up is complete, they get an A-, more experimentation with grippier pads is what would make it a perfect setup, they are just slightly less powerful in a panic brake situation than the rear brakes, however during a downhill run ,they will far out last the rears staying cool.

[vwdmc16]

So time to upgrade again!

51794


51795

[Drive Stainless]

Ok 500 miles of testing on this set up is complete, they get an A-, more experimentation with grippier pads is what would make it a perfect setup, they are just slightly less powerful in a panic brake situation than the rear brakes, however during a downhill run ,they will far out last the rears staying cool.

I think the only thing most people want to know is how the new front setup compares with the oem front setup.

Why are your comparing the new front with the oem rear? It sounds like you prefer to use a brake master cylinder proportioned to provide more braking to the front calipers? Or are you implicitly stating that this new front setup has less stopping power than the oem front setup?

[vwdmc16]

Im saying the balance is not perfect with these pads and possibly with the Dmc M/C, the rear locks up first if you panic brake since they are smaller piston area than the new larger fronts. They are larger in diameter and pad size than front oem but with the stock dmc M/C they dont get enough fluid to engage evenly with the rear, remember our M/Cs have a built in 63/37 split, with these calipers that is not ideal, improving thr bite with different pads might be the easiest way to dial that in, not saying that will work definately. Im planning on trying out the 50/50 split Saab 900 M/C.


One if the main reasons to go with these brakes is to get cheaper vented rotors that are easy to get in the US, still working out how to do that on the rear as well, so more rebalancing will be needed then.

[Bob635]

Josh,

Nice work. Very interested in the effect of changing the master cylinder.

Bob

[Bob635]

Josh,

How did you go about testing the brake set up. Is there an empty road you used?

Bob

[Josh]

i have not done any testing as my car is still out of commission. Clint has done all of the testing though, im sure he can answer your question!

[Bob635]

Josh,

Here is something to add to your conversion. I have been trying to get the Ford Granda 2.8 L diesel front calipers that bolt to the D. They were used on the ruggized Deloreans for the World Tour. these calipers fit the vented disc and had 50% large brake pads.

Spareto (something like rockauto in the EU) just sent me an email saying they are no longer available. So this raises the stakes for your conversion
being the only one now that has larger brake pads.

It is too bad that sourcing of these calipers for upgrading the D brakes was not done years ago.

Bob

[nkemp]

[QUOTE=vwdmc16;219219]Im saying the balance is not perfect with these pads and possibly with the Dmc M/C, the rear locks up first if you panic brake /QUOTE]

Is an adjustable brake proportioning valve worth considering?

[opethmike]

Considering my upcoming LS4 conversion, I am keeping my eyes very close on this thread.

[opethmike]

Just wanted to check-in on this thread, and see where things are?

[vwdmc16]

I have been continuing testing on my car abeit at a slow pace. I have halted testing on the 1.8 Miata brakes for now and gone to this 11 inch rotor and stoptech caliper package (since it just became available and I was offered to give it a try by a local vendor), which is a lot more powerful and they much nicer looking set up that bolts up to Josh S' brackets. However that has required me to go with 15 inch wheels, which I now have 100 miles of testing now. I will need to narrow the front track a little bit for these wider Wheels which are 15 x 8 front and rear.

I am waiting on getting some more evenly matched front and rear tires to get a more accurate result about the brake bias. I'm currently running much stickier tires up front and older tires in the rear which is giving an unfair bias to the rear.
This Stoptech kit is the largest bolt on brake kit put on a DeLorean as far as we know.

However the 1.8 Miata brake conversion is still 100% bolt on and work fantastic with factory wheels and tires. Hopefully we will have more cars with that set up to compare results soon.


52377

52378

[Nicholas R]

I have been continuing testing on my car abeit at a slow pace. I have halted testing on the 1.8 Miata brakes for now and gone to this 11 inch rotor and stoptech caliper package (since it just became available and I was offered to give it a try by a local vendor), which is a lot more powerful and they much nicer looking set up that bolts up to Josh S' brackets. However that has required me to go with 15 inch wheels, which I now have 100 miles of testing now. I will need to narrow the front track a little bit for these wider Wheels which are 15 x 8 front and rear.

I am waiting on getting some more evenly matched front and rear tires to get a more accurate result about the brake bias. I'm currently running much stickier tires up front and older tires in the rear which is giving an unfair bias to the rear.
This Stoptech kit is the largest bolt on brake kit put on a DeLorean as far as we know.

However the 1.8 Miata brake conversion is still 100% bolt on and work fantastic with factory wheels and tires. Hopefully we will have more cars with that set up to compare results soon.


52377

52378

Is the 11" disc planned for what you'd potentially help other owners install? Just curious since I cant imagine many owners wanting to change their front wheels.

The wilwoods I have up front are using 11" discs with 4 piston forged dynalite calipers. As I've told others before, 11" discs are great for stopping, but honestly, I'd probably rather bump down to 10.75" if I were to do it again as the clearance is extremely tight in the stock 14" rim. When I first installed them, there was one corner of the caliper that I had to shave about .05"-.01" off of to ensure that there was no rubbing with the inside of the rim.

[Farrar]

"It works fine, but I am not using it" doesn't seem like much of an endorsement to me...

Oh, well. This thread was fun reading, anyway. I guess I'll keep my brakes stock and drive under the speed limit. LOL

[vwdmc16]

"It works fine, but I am not using it" doesn't seem like much of an endorsement to me...

.....LOL



Well you're right it does work fine, but there is this better and larger brake kits out there and this happened to come along.

Personally I want even more braking capacity, so feeling very confident with the 1.8 Miata setup I have already moved on to this next stage however it requires larger Wheels which very few DeLorean owners are willing to do.

Think of the Miata 1.8 setup as a stage 1 and this larger stoptech kit as a stage 2. I'm well aware that stock is fine for most of you guys who just drive your cars every once in awhile and doddle from car show the car show. But there are also other people who drive these cars daily and/or drive them a little more spirited so they would like to have a safer more powerful longer-lasting brake setup.

[vwdmc16]

Is the 11" disc planned for what you'd potentially help other owners install? Just curious since I cant imagine many owners wanting to change their front wheels.

The wilwoods I have up front are using 11" discs with 4 piston forged dynalite calipers. As I've told others before, 11" discs are great for stopping, but honestly, I'd probably rather bump down to 10.75" if I were to do it again as the clearance is extremely tight in the stock 14" rim....


This 11in stoptech kit was a kit from a local vendor that I build roll bars for here in Sacramento and they are bolt on for Mazda Miatas, they just happened to bolt onto my DeLorean now that Josh S has made these adapter brackets so any aftermarket brake kit that bolts onto a Miata should now bolt on to a DeLorean.

This stoptech kit is really just for my own amusement, and personal development, and it showcases what else is possible. If anyone is interested in having that as well I can give them more information. Don't worry the 1.8 brake kit is still under development and testing.

While this Stoptech set up does not fit in a 14 inch wheel and the Willwoods do, this is quite a trivial issue to me and should be to anyone who cares about putting quality tires on their car.

14 inch tires are a thing of the past, there is no more market for it anymore, tire manufacturers are not putting any time or money into making quality products in that size. So for performance and safety sake have gone to having 15 inch front tires which means I can now put even larger brakes on the car and have more rubber for it to grip the road with.

If you absolutely have to keep the factory wheel and tire set up, that's absolutely fine, (its one of the many reasons 1.8 mx5 brakes were chosen) I just think the smaller wheels are rather limiting the access to modern performance equipment. [End rant on tires:cheers:]
None of this stuff is permanent, I could literally bolt on 100% Factory brakes wheels and tires in less than an hour.


The possibilities are pretty much endless, you just need to ask yourself what do you want your car to do, how much money do you want to spend, and how do you want it to look?