Now it won't even attempt to crank

[DaraSue]

So that intermittent problem I was having where I turned the key and nothing happened? It's suddenly become constant. I tested the battery this morning and it tested good, I drove it to work and then a couple of miles to the library and back on my dinner break. When I went to start up a few hours later, nothing.

The dash lights come on but the engine doesn't even attempt to start. I can sometimes hear the relay clicking from the back. After I take the key out for a few seconds there'll be a kind of medium-pitch buzz that sounds like it's coming from under the dash, like an alarm that tells you your keys are still in the ignition, but they're not. The previous times this has happened, it went away when I took the key out and reinserted it. I tried that about 5 times with no success.

I replaced the ignition relay and it didn't help. I poked around the inertia switch but nothing looked obviously amiss. Is there anything else I can try before expending my 3rd of 4 allotted AAA tows for the year?

(Other things I've already replaced: RPM relay, coil, terminal on Y/W wire on lower right side of resistor, terminal on B/W wire going to negative side of coil. The car still started after all of these, but I was having the issue where it would run rough and die if I didn't keep my foot on the gas until the idle evened out.)

[Bitsyncmaster]

When you say won't crank, I take that as the starter is not turning the engine. But I think you are saying the starter is working but the engine does not "fire" (start running).

[Jonathan]

Start taking good quality close-up photos of suspected problem areas and post them here. Inertia switch, ballast resistor and connectors, ignition coil to begin with.

[Dangermouse]

When you say you "tested the battery", what do you mean?

A proper load test, or simply measuring the voltage with a voltmeter?

If the latter, take the battery to Autozone or similar and get it load tested. It may have 12V but no capacity worth talking about. 8 AAA batteries also have 12V, but they certainly wouldn't be able to start the car.



Can you get the car jump started where you are?

[DaraSue]

When you say won't crank, I take that as the starter is not turning the engine. But I think you are saying the starter is working but the engine does not "fire" (start running).

Nope, it's the first one. There's no rrr-rrr-rrr sound of the engine turning like it normally would. I don't think I'm hearing the fuel pump or anything either. So I'm thinking the problem might be between the switch and the steering column or the relay and everything else?


When you say you "tested the battery", what do you mean?

A proper load test, or simply measuring the voltage with a voltmeter?

If the latter, take the battery to Autozone or similar and get it load tested. It may have 12V but no capacity worth talking about. 8 AAA batteries also have 12V, but they certainly wouldn't be able to start the car.

Can you get the car jump started where you are?

I used one of those little battery testers with the probes on the end and it read green. The other day when I hooked up a trickle charger it showed just between green and yellow on its meter, and the car's started every day since then (just with difficulty). The battery was supposedly replaced by the seller so it should be new since last summer, but I can try jump-starting it with my CRX or off one of the security trucks at work.

I'm at home right now but I'm going to head up there in a little bit so I'll get some pictures if jump-starting it doesn't work.

[Michael]

Make sure the starter circuit mod has been done.
Sounds like a textbook case of it.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Well you don't need to worry about the ignition, fuel pump, etc. for now since those have nothing to do with the starter not turning the engine over.

If this happened suddenly you may have left something on like a light and drained the battery or you may have a bad connection on the starter or battery cables. Those little battery testers are just measuring voltage which does not really show you how good the battery is. One quick test is to put the headlights on and then read the voltage.

Probably best to have the battery load tested since that has the least amount of work required.

[DaraSue]

I've got another appointment so I'm going to come back to this later but here are the pictures I just took of my wiring:

496754967649677496784967949680496814968249683

[DaraSue]

496844968549686496874968849685

[Elvis]

a $10 multimeter and the schematic are very handy in such a case.

in 5 minutes the problem can be found


Do you have basic electrical knowledge ?



BTW - very clean electrical compartment, where is the power lock ECU ?

[Bitsyncmaster]

In the photo near the starter.

That bare ground wire terminal needs to be checked. It does not look crimped tight and not soldered.

[DaraSue]

a $10 multimeter and the schematic are very handy in such a case.

in 5 minutes the problem can be found


Do you have basic electrical knowledge ?



BTW - very clean electrical compartment, where is the power lock ECU ?

I've got a $7.99 one but I'm not sure how good it is. I couldn't get it to zero when I shorted the leads while trying to test the coil.

I know positive/negative/ground and I've re-terminated a couple of the wires in the car without making things immediately worse so I guess I know more than some people but prior to this the only electrical work I'd done was replacing household switches and lights and fans.

The door lock module is in the storage cubby b/c the seller said they tended to drain the battery and I didn't think I needed to have it in there if it might cause problems.


In the photo near the starter.

That bare ground wire terminal needs to be checked. It does not look crimped tight and not soldered.

I'm having a hard time even seeing what's what in there through all the exhaust stuff and the oil filter. Is it the fat braided wire or what looks like a skinny copper one?

49696



Make sure the starter circuit mod has been done.
Sounds like a textbook case of it.

I didn't get the relay holder apart to check 100% but I see a brown wire coming off it to the #18 breaker so I'm thinking it has.

[Jonathan]

I've got another appointment so I'm going to come back to this later but here are the pictures I just took of my wiring:

49676

Could you please confirm under this relay socket that there indeed is a black ground wire in place? Your engine bay light switch isn't plugged in and I'm just ruling out that one of those wires pulled off of it didn't include the relay ground as they terminate back to that same screw on the bracket underneath the ballast resistor.

49697

[Timebender]

Sounds to me like either a bad battery, or bad starter. Even though mine is modded, with the same symptoms, clicking relay, etc., it was the starter going bad then just pooping out altogether. New starter fixed the issue and never had another stuck somewhere situation since.

[Bitsyncmaster]

I'm having a hard time even seeing what's what in there through all the exhaust stuff and the oil filter. Is it the fat braided wire or what looks like a skinny copper one?

49696

The fat braided wire is what the starter gets it ground from. So you want to check that that "flag" terminal is connected tightly to the wire.

[DaraSue]

OMFG, IT WAS THE LIGHT SWITCH

:facepalm:

I was looking at that relay Jonathan mentioned (which did appear to have an intact ground wire) and decided to swap it out and try starting again just in case. It still didn't start but when it was buzzing after I turned it off it dawned on me that the noise could be a lights-on alarm, and the last time I'd driven it I'd had the lights on so I hit the switch a couple times and voila, it started (with its usual-of-late reluctance, but I made it home).

So I'm guessing I have to start looking at things in the light circuit now? In addition to the ongoing starting problem. But at least I can do it in my garage instead of in the parking lot at work. :woot:

[Nicholas R]

If you're getting power to the car when you turn the key on, but no cranking when you hit the start switch, I'd start with jumping the starter. Turn to the key to the on position, take a screw driver, and jump the starter solenoid power cable terminal with the starter signal terminal.

If the starter and engine cranks, then you know its on the control side (starter switch, relay, etc.)
If it doesn't crank but it does click, then you know that the starter itself has an issue but the solenoid is okay.
If the starter spins but the solenoid doesn't engage, then you know its a solenoid issue. (I'm not sure if the starter will actually spin if the solenoid is bad but you can also test this by jumping the solenoid power terminal to the starter power terminal)
If nothing at all happens, then you know that you have no power at all to the starter or solenoid.

The ignition switch on the column of my Opel GT is flaky at times and I periodically have to start it by turning the key to on and using a screwdriver. Not the most glamorous method but it works until I get a replacement switch.


EDIT: Nevermind, just saw you got it resolved. By the way, for future reference, this is an excellent thread: http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?40-All-Wiring-Schematics

[DaraSue]

The fat braided wire is what the starter gets it ground from. So you want to check that that "flag" terminal is connected tightly to the wire.

When I pull on it it feels like it's tight. What's it supposed to look like?



EDIT: Nevermind, just saw you got it resolved. By the way, for future reference, this is an excellent thread: http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?40-All-Wiring-Schematics

Thanks, when they say "dip beams" that means low (normal) beams? It seems like "main" should be the normal ones but I've seen them referred to as the low beams elsewhere.

[Dangermouse]

dipped = low= outer lamps

Main=brights = inner + outer (or just inner on some cars)

[DaraSue]

Wait a minute, I don't see any lights-on warning buzzer in the diagrams. The only one is the "buzzer logic box" off the ignition switch (#246 on the big schematic), but the purple line off that runs to the triangle labeled horn/DI/dip push switch (#71). So.. I'm looking for something screwy in that circuit, maybe? The logic box is in the steering column, right? Is it advisable to take that apart?

This is so vexing...

[DaraSue]

Still trying to figure out why the light switch would have caused this issue. Here are some pix of the steering column wiring and behind the A/C panel, does anyone see anything amiss?

49717497224971849719497204972149723

The first one of the left side of the steering column, the round black plastic part looks kind of greasy and dirty, does it maybe need to be cleaned up?

[Rich]

Still trying to figure out why the light switch would have caused this issue. Here are some pix of the steering column wiring and behind the A/C panel, does anyone see anything amiss?

That could have been a coincidence, perhaps nothing to do with the light switch.

If your D is in the mode of sometimes cranking and sometimes not then the starter circuit is in question.

Be sure the starter relay recall is in place.

Beyond that the original starter solenoid contactor eventually can give out. As it's going bad you get more and more non-cranks kind of at random. Eventually you get a new or rebuilt starter (with a new solenoid on it) or a rebuilt/replacement solenoid on the old starter (which is probably still fine if it cranks just fine whenever it DOES crank to begin with). Just a guess, not enough data to be sure about this one.

[Jonathan]

The tech bulletin for the starter recall modification indicates it was done by the factory after VIN 2547. Are there cars out there with higher VINs that were somehow missed by Dunmurry?

[Bitsyncmaster]

The tech bulletin for the starter recall modification indicates it was done by the factory after VIN 2547. Are there cars out there with higher VINs that were somehow missed by Dunmurry?

His blower breaker had four wires so I assume the modification was done. Now he should check that the modification wire is attached to the battery side, otherwise if the blower was on when he tried to start the car it may "break" the breaker and then the starter would not crank.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

The tech bulletin for the starter recall modification indicates it was done by the factory after VIN 2547. Are there cars out there with higher VINs that were somehow missed by Dunmurry?

I've never seen one that was missed.
Rob

[DaraSue]

I took the relay holder out just to double check and it does look like it has all the wires it should according to the service bulletin:

49737

However, the bulletin says the brown wire is supposed to connect to the fan speed breaker, which according to he chart http://support.delorean.com/AvatarHandler.ashx?fid=8395&key=3475194172 is #18. But mine goes to the left side of #19.

49738 (Whoops, my arrow doesn't show up very well here but it's the top one on the left.)

Additionally, I had to take the lambda relay out to get to the bolt and it was extremely difficult to remove, and it has different markings than the other square relays. Is this of any significance?

4973949740

[Jonathan]

49681


Additionally, I had to take the lambda relay out to get to the bolt and it was extremely difficult to remove, and it has different markings than the other square relays. Is this of any significance?

4973949740

Yes. The Lambda relay is different from the others. How? I don't know. What I do know is that this is the reason they put that label where they did.

[DaraSue]

Yes. The Lambda relay is different from the others. How? I don't know. What I do know is that this is the reason they put that label where they did.

Huh, according to this

http://support.delorean.com/kb/a53/electrical-relays-and-relay-updates.aspx

There's a replacement kit that comes with NOS relays and an upgrade kit that comes new Bosch ones, so maybe that one is actually the newest one? Weird that it isn't marked differently on the chart like the other ones, if it's supposed to be a different kind of relay.

[DaraSue]

I took it to the shop to get the battery tested and they said it was putting out something like 590 amps (it was rated for up to 690, IIRC) which was apparently good. At that point I just gave up and left it there to get the starter checked b/c I had a road trip planned for next month and I didn't want to dink around with it for another two weeks and risk still not being able to fix the problem. :confused0:

[DaraSue]

Still not sure about this one, they couldn't replicate the issue at the shop. When I was driving home, a guy pulled up next to me and said I had no brake lights. I'm waiting for my roommate to get back to have him look at it while I start it, but is that something that could potentially be related or just another random gremlin? (A guy I know whose kid used to have one said that sometimes half of his taillights would randomly stop working, and he was an electrical engineer and never did figure out why.)

[Bitsyncmaster]

Still not sure about this one, they couldn't replicate the issue at the shop. When I was driving home, a guy pulled up next to me and said I had no brake lights. I'm waiting for my roommate to get back to have him look at it while I start it, but is that something that could potentially be related or just another random gremlin? (A guy I know whose kid used to have one said that sometimes half of his taillights would randomly stop working, and he was an electrical engineer and never did figure out why.)

With both stop lights out it most likely is your brake light switch or the fuse. The brake lights get power through a fuse only used in that circuit.

[David T]

With both stop lights out it most likely is your brake light switch or the fuse. The brake lights get power through a fuse only used in that circuit.

While it very well could be a fuse or a switch, the taillight boards are notorious for faulty connections.

[DaraSue]

Just had my roommate look while I started it and he said there was still nothing. Guess I have another project for tomorrow...

[DaraSue]

Crisis averted - one of the green & purple wires had come unplugged at the switch. I probably bumped it while poking around under there chasing the startup gremlin. Far and away the easiest repair I've made yet. :biggrin:

[DaraSue]

Miraculously this one actually manifested while they were working on it. They checked the battery which tested good, but while doing that they discovered that my cutoff switch was a little loose. It's too intermittent to be sure yet whether tightening the connections on the cutoff did the trick but I'm crossing my fingers...

[DaraSue]

May have finally whipped this one! When I stopped by DPI to get some replacement bolts for my exhaust heat shield, I had Josh take a look at the wiring by the starter. I had thought the problem might be a bad connection in the blue scotch-lock in that cluster, but it turned out that wire didn't actually do anything. But while he was poking around in there he discovered that the whole starter wasn't actually bolted in correctly (apparently installer error by the seller) so it would work itself loose and sometimes randomly not ground. He replaced the starter and it hasn't done it since. He said that even if the problem recurs and that wasn't actually it, the starter was a disaster waiting to happen (possibly in the middle of Nebraska), so I guess my lost heat shield bolts were a blessing in disguise!

[Delorean Industries]

Great finally meeting you yesterday! I think we were all surprised to be able to grab the end of the starter and shake it around... This was a first by far. The starter is held in by three 8mm bolts. This one had a stripped out 8mm up top, 7 mm in the middle and a 5/16 bolt in the bottom. After seeing the starter fail to start the car multiple times in person and not once after wards I think the problem is fixed!

[DaraSue]

Great finally meeting you yesterday! I think we were all surprised to be able to grab the end of the starter and shake it around... This was a first by far. The starter is held in by three 8mm bolts. This one had a stripped out 8mm up top, 7 mm in the middle and a 5/16 bolt in the bottom. After seeing the starter fail to start the car multiple times in person and not once after wards I think the problem is fixed!

Thanks again for all your help! I didn't have any more problems with it yesterday so things are looking good. :biggrin:

[David T]

Problems like that are difficult-to-impossible to help you with over the Internet. You find that kind of wacky stuff only by putting your eyes and hands on it. The Dreaded Previous Owner (DPI) strikes again! The bigger problem is once you find that kind of thing, now you have to worry what else was touched on the car?

[DaraSue]

Problems like that are difficult-to-impossible to help you with over the Internet. You find that kind of wacky stuff only by putting your eyes and hands on it. The Dreaded Previous Owner (DPI) strikes again! The bigger problem is once you find that kind of thing, now you have to worry what else was touched on the car?

Yeah, this wasn't the first time I've had to redo something the seller said he fixed. :rolleyes1:

I felt like I should have caught this myself but maybe it wasn't as loose when I was poking around there originally. It definitely seemed like it was intensifying recently - the time I posted this thread was the first time it took more than a couple tries to start, and after that it would be OK for a week or two at a time, but when I was in PA was the first time it had done it two starts in a row and repeatedly taken 6-7 tries to get going. Really glad I didn't try to go another 1800 miles with it like that!

[Delorean Industries]

Problems like that are difficult-to-impossible to help you with over the Internet. You find that kind of wacky stuff only by putting your eyes and hands on it. The Dreaded Previous Owner (DPI) strikes again! The bigger problem is once you find that kind of thing, now you have to worry what else was touched on the car?

We struck again?!?!? Huh

[Nicholas R]

Apparently DPI was the previous owner :hmm:

[Delorean Industries]

Nope! This was the first time we ever saw or touched this car!

[DaraSue]

LOL no, DPI wasn't the DPO on this one. The original owner let it sit for 20 years, the guy I bought it from got it from him and did a laundry list of upgrades with... varying degrees of success.

(To be fair, if I'd had the car trucked to my house and only driven it on Sundays the way many classic car owners do, I might never have noticed most of the stuff that was wrong with it, because most of the problems I've had have shaken loose after 100+ mile drives. But I was expecting somewhat less of a fixer-upper than I got, for what I paid.)

[DaraSue]

Well, it's at it again. When I turn the key, the engine doesn't crank/turn over, the key buzzer buzzes, and I hear a squealing from the relay compartment. Tried replacing the rpm, ignition and lambda relays, nothing. Fuses and wires appear OK. Didn't see anything obvious wrong with the starter wires. When I try to start, the needle on the tach sometimes goes around on a circle. Has anyone ever heard of this?

This happened after a short (about 5 minutes) stop on a hot day, had been driving a few miles with no trouble indicators prior to stopping. Left it to go get lunch but still didn't start.

[Rich]

OK, well, your starter mount bolt-tightening may have extended the borrowed time you had on that starter.

If it's still the old symptom, intermittent non-crank, then you are probably looking at replacing at least the solenoid contactor, a known wear item on the old OE Rhone starters. If you skip that then you replace the starter (which includes a good solenoid). The symptom is the relay makes a noise and the starter solenoid clicks but nothing happens.

Not sure about the spinning tach needle. Somebody here may know whether that's anything to do with a bad starter or something else.


To catch up on where you left this here is what I think you had sorted out somewhere around post #36.
Does it still sound right to you? I put Josh's projection in bold here:


May have finally whipped this one! When I stopped by DPI to get some replacement bolts for my exhaust heat shield, I had Josh take a look at the wiring by the starter. I had thought the problem might be a bad connection in the blue scotch-lock in that cluster, but it turned out that wire didn't actually do anything. But while he was poking around in there he discovered that the whole starter wasn't actually bolted in correctly (apparently installer error by the seller) so it would work itself loose and sometimes randomly not ground. He replaced the starter and it hasn't done it since. He said that even if the problem recurs and that wasn't actually it, the starter was a disaster waiting to happen (possibly in the middle of Nebraska), so I guess my lost heat shield bolts were a blessing in disguise!

[opethmike]

You have two options:

1. Replace the starter
2. LS swap

[DaraSue]

Thanks guys. To clarify, Josh actually did replace the whole starter and rewire it when I was out there (2 years ago). Could the new one have crapped out already?

Forgot to mention, with the key on accessory, the windows don't roll up either. Door lights still work (LEDs). Emailed Dave S. and he thought it could just be a low battery but I hadn't had any sluggish starts or anything lately. I was parked for less than 10 minutes when this happened., AFAIK didn't leave my lights on.

(oh, one other thing - the engine died while it was idling waiting for a smog check about a week ago. It started right back up, but I never did figure out why that happened.)

[Ron]

Sounds like you should try jumping the starter relay and/or follow the steps in post 17.

[David T]

The way to diagnose this is to start at the beginning. Test the battery and check the connections to it. Visually inspect the wiring to the starter in case something came loose or got burnt. Try the key in the start position and see if the solenoid on the starter clicks. Check the voltage on the starter when trying to start it. It *could* be a bad solenoid, relay, wiring or connection so don't just replace the starter again hoping to "fix" the problem. Sometimes the act of replacing a part disturbs the real problem and you think you fixed it but the problem reoccurs because you only disturbed it and did not actually fix it.

[Delorean Industries]

Thanks guys. To clarify, Josh actually did replace the whole starter and rewire it when I was out there (2 years ago). Could the new one have crapped out already?

Forgot to mention, with the key on accessory, the windows don't roll up either. Door lights still work (LEDs). Emailed Dave S. and he thought it could just be a low battery but I hadn't had any sluggish starts or anything lately. I was parked for less than 10 minutes when this happened., AFAIK didn't leave my lights on.

(oh, one other thing - the engine died while it was idling waiting for a smog check about a week ago. It started right back up, but I never did figure out why that happened.)

That time you stopped by and your starter wasn't even bolted in accept for a few cross-threaded standard bolts? :) If the starter happens to be the culprit just let us know and we will warranty it of course. Once you have verified the battery if the problem continues do the following. Put the car in first gear key off and go to back corner. Jog the car in gear to turn the engine over a bit. Back out of gear and try starting.

[DaraSue]

Thanks, everyone. Still investigating - last night my friend and I were able to get the car started with starting fluid and it seemed to be OK until I got off the freeway and then engine & electrical all died. Called AAA and had it towed back to my house, this morning battery tests at 12v but still won't crank. Listening with a stethoscope, the squealing noise is coming from here : 61037

Mike M. said if the dash lights don't come on when I try to start, it could be a main relay, which he described as a silver relay screwed in next to the fuse box. Is that what this thing is? Why can't I find it on the schematics on DeLorean.com?

[Edit: is it this? https://store.delorean.com/p-7210-relay-heavy-duty.aspx ]

[Ron]

Why can't I find it on the schematics on DeLorean.com?[Edit: is it this? https://store.delorean.com/p-7210-relay-heavy-duty.aspx ]
That is #19 HERE (https://store.delorean.com/c-285-3-7-4-fuse-boxrelays.aspx).

On the WS schematic, there are two, both labeled #102 "Aux Relay." You can swap them...
Check the ground and other connections.

[DaraSue]

Mystery solved (hopefully)! My negative battery cable connector was corroded all to crap. (I'd checked the cables for tightness but hadn't actually taken them off any looked at the terminals while all of this was going on.) I took the battery to Autozone and it tested good. After cleaning up the connection and reinstalling it, it fired right up. Had to go to work so I didn't chance a real road test yet but I idled it for half an hour with the lights on and the fans cycling and the voltage tested good. Crossing my fingers that it's fixed now. Thanks again, everyone!

[David T]

If it is the terminal that goes to the battery, the case is cracked because that connection was overtightened and now the seal is compromised. You should replace the battery. Side terminal connections are not supposed to corrode.