Car Not Starting, Already Swapped Starter

[uhhair]

So my car has decided to be a jerk and isn't starting.

I have power, battery was replaced last year and I just replaced the starter as I thought that might be the issue, since once time while banging on the starter over the winter to get the car to turn over, it actually worked.

However, that seems to have been a coincidence and not correlated, since it still doesn't turn over.

I definitely have power, all my lights/accessories work, and I've had the car jumped just in case a low battery was the issue, so we can rule out a weak/dead battery.

What else should I start chasing? The starter isn't engaging or trying to turn the engine over, but the last time I got the car's starter to engage (a couple of months ago) after spending about 5-10 minutes at it, it ran for a good 30 minutes. That's about all I have to work with.

[Rich]

....it still doesn't turn over.

I definitely have power, all my lights/accessories work, and I've had the car jumped just in case a low battery was the issue, so we can rule out a weak/dead battery.

What else should I start chasing? The starter isn't engaging or trying to turn the engine over, but the last time I got the car's starter to engage (a couple of months ago) after spending about 5-10 minutes at it, it ran for a good 30 minutes. That's about all I have to work with.

Let's be clear about the conditions before we figure out what to look at.

'Doesn't turn over' and 'starter doesn't engage' are both pretty clear.

3 questions:
1. When you turn the key do you hear any sound at all from near the starter? A click, even?
2. When you turn the key do the headlights dim at all? A lot? No dimming?
3. Has this problem been getting more and more frequent or did it go bad all at once?

[uhhair]

1. The new starter does click if you lay behind the car and listen when turning it over yes.
2. When you turn the key, you can hear the relays click, the fans shut off (if you had them on before attempting to start, yes I've been messing with all that stuff), headlights dim, etc.
3. Honestly never had much of a problem starting until it went downhill very quickly.

The starter is new, and I've already swapped the relay with a known good one, so we can safely rule those two components out for the time being.

My guess is I need to check if the starter wiring recall is done (VIN 2681), and then go from there. Just want to chase down any other possible leads so I can line them up and knock them out while working.

[Bitsyncmaster]

If your fans stop and headlights dim, you probably have a bad connection or the battery is weak. If you jump from the battery with same results it's probably a bad connection. If you jump from the jump terminal to battery "ground" same results would indicate a ground connection problem. Jump from jump terminal to engine block and it starts would prove the ground circuit is poor.

[uhhair]

If your fans stop and headlights dim, you probably have a bad connection or the battery is weak. If you jump from the battery with same results it's probably a bad connection. If you jump from the jump terminal to battery "ground" same results would indicate a ground connection problem. Jump from jump terminal to engine block and it starts would prove the ground circuit is poor.

Would you mind spelling out what you mean by jump from jump terminal to engine block and the other ones? I want to try these but you need to spell it out for me a bit more. Thanks!

I just tried jumping from the battery again. Interestingly enough, with a car jumping it, the starter itself no longer clicks. Try starting it without jumping the battery, and I hear the starter click again. Not sure what that means.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Would you mind spelling out what you mean by jump from jump terminal to engine block and the other ones? I want to try these but you need to spell it out for me a bit more. Thanks!

I just tried jumping from the battery again. Interestingly enough, with a car jumping it, the starter itself no longer clicks. Try starting it without jumping the battery, and I hear the starter click again. Not sure what that means.

Your battery has two wires that carry the current to the starter. The red battery wire runs directly to the starter and then the jump terminal wire is also attached to the starter.

The black battery wire runs to the frame and there is a jumper from the engine block to the frame side of the motor mount.

Poorly connected terminals on any of those wires can make the starter fail (starter draws about 150 amps). Black wire terminals also need clean tight connections on to the frame. So to narrow down which wire is bad, you can use your booster cables connected to the engine block (bypassed the black wires) or the jump terminal (bypassed the red battery wire).

Now if it cranked with the booster cables connected on the battery posts then your cables are good and the battery is low.

Lastly it could be the wiring from the starter relay to the starter solenoid.

[DMC5180]

There should be label on your coil cover that explains the jumpstart process and recommend connections.

Jumper cables : black goes to the engine lifting ring near throttle spool. Red connects to the jump start post under the Red terminal Cover positioned between the coil cover and header bottle.

Remove the start inhibit relay and make sure all socket terminals are visible and fully seated. I have a buddy the had an intermittent starting issue. It turned out, one of the female spade terminals had pushed out of the housing when he upgraded relays.


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[uhhair]

Problem solved, and unfortunately is one of the more expensive varieties...

Turns out I have a worn out ignition that's not making the electrical connection when the key is turned.

Thanks for the help everyone!

[DMC5180]

DMCH has a replacement switch that requires a little wire splicing but it's not too bad.


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[uhhair]

DMCH has a replacement switch that requires a little wire splicing but it's not too bad.


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Yeah I'll buy the electrical portion first and see if that solves it, but I have a jacked up tumbler so odds are, it's going to be that.

[DMC5180]

I don't recall if it's possible with DMC unit, but most vehicles with traditional ignition assemblies allow you to remove the cylinder. They have release pin that you have to push in while the key is in the cylinder then rotate it to a curtain position and the cylinder comes out. But again I don't know if it's possible with DMC assembly. The key cylinder has nothing to do with the switch other than rotating it. The spring back you feel when cranking is all internal to the switch itself. Worn tumbler plates or the Key itself (OE STEEL) could cause the brass plates in the cylinder to be slightly out of position. This could cause drag when rotating though.


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[uhhair]

Yeah I don't know either, I don't have a lot of experience playing around with tumblers, ignition assemblies, etc. I'm going to mess around with it though and see what I can come up with.

[DMCMW Dave]

It's really hard to get the cylinder out. It's held in by pin into a blind hole.


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[DMC5180]

I kinda thought that was the case. It's been a long time since I've looked at one up close.


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[DMC5180]

It's really hard to get the cylinder out. It's held in by pin into a blind hole.


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Is this the blind pin?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170421/28ab9490a35a77a8b6a1dd9ad05f2a9e.jpg


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[DMCMW Dave]

Is this the blind pin?


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Yes. It needs to be extracted to get the tumbler out. Locksmith.


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[Jonathan]

Here's some more info on the pin location in the cylinder and the springiness of the switch (in the video).

The ignition switch set-up my car came to me with in 2007 had this screw in it holding it together. I replaced it all in 2013.

5105151052


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRVIZO9m1RE

[DMC5180]

Excellent video Jonathan. This belongs in the resource section.

When replaced your assembly, how did you remove the tamper proof bolts and what did you use as for replacement bolts if not original type?


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[Jonathan]

Thanks Dennis. The Calculus part at the beginning is a bit dumb, but I was thinking it shouldn't be common knowledge how to take one of these apart. Not for thieves anyway :)

I was fortunate enough to find a parts car owner selling a complete ignition switch assembly and so that's what I bought. I think my own car had someone in to the interlock switch before I got it and they had basically Dremmel'ed a slot into the tops of those tamper proof screws to allow you to get them out. That's not something easily done, certainly not quickly, but not that difficult if you have the time and are doing it in your garage with the right tools.

51054

[DMC5180]

Thieves never take the TIME to methodically remove anything. So your safe on that one.

Know someone who had the aftermarket DIN radio stolen from his car while he was at work parked in a high visibility location with cameras. All caught on video. It took 2 minutes In and out because the doors were unlocked. They broke the A/C panel in the process too.


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