Effects of gasohol on our D's

[content22207]

We need a thread to monitor mechanical injector failures in case gasohol is negatively affecting them.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[sean]

We need a thread to monitor mechanical injector failures in case gasohol is negatively affecting them.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Head it up!

[content22207]

I don't have mechanical injectors.

In our little corner of the sandbox, the Louisiana boys are struggling with their Airtex fuel pumps (which could be electrically caused, or it could just be bad QC), but otherwise we seem to be weathering gasohol OK.

Gasohol is reported to cause steel fuel system components to rust from the inside out -- that is the effect I most wonder about. Perhaps someone could cut open a dead injector and autopsy it.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[1Mcfly4u]

I don't have mechanical injectors.

In our little corner of the sandbox, the Louisiana boys are struggling with their Airtex fuel pumps (which could be electrically caused, or it could just be bad QC), but otherwise we seem to be weathering gasohol OK.

Gasohol is reported to cause steel fuel system components to rust from the inside out -- that is the effect I most wonder about. Perhaps someone could cut open a dead injector and autopsy it.

Bill Robertson
#5939

What percentage are you guys running down there now Bill? We're still at 10%. I know we talked about it at breakfast the other month, whats the percentage in the deep south?

[content22207]

What percentage are you guys running down there now Bill? We're still at 10%. I know we talked about it at breakfast the other month, whats the percentage in the deep south?

Forget gasohol -- where are the pictures of Miriam I was promised.

The whole country is E10 at least. Some stations are E15. Finding pure unadulterated gasoline is getting harder & harder (the puregas website is not accurate, at least not in my part of the world).

Gasohol is nothing more than a government subsidy to the corn lobby, the railroads (they have been treated so badly in the past I'm almost willing to look past that), and the refiners who build distilleries with government money and *STILL* want tax breaks for operating them. The sooner congress runs out of money to subsidize this madness, the better.

Did I mention Miriam is Moroccan?

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Farrar]

The whole country is E10 at least. Some stations are E15. Finding pure unadulterated gasoline is getting harder & harder (the puregas website is not accurate, at least not in my part of the world).

The stickers on the pumps around here say "up to 10% ethanol" (except where I fill up my two cars).

Farrar

[content22207]

The stickers on the pumps around here say "up to 10% ethanol"

E10.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[1Mcfly4u]

It wasn't me that promised pics, I don't live at Va. Beach. If I am down that way again I'll pop in for you though Bill.

[Farrar]

E10.

To quote Mister Spock, "I believe I said that, Captain." ;)

I haven't seen anything higher than E10 in my area.

Farrar

[David T]

The alcohol is hard on the car for several reasons. It softens and ages rubber components faster. It reduces gas mileage. It absorbs moisture from the air and holds it in suspension till a certain point and then the water comes out acidic and rots any steel components it is in contact with. It does not store well and will separate into different fractions. The first signs will be a soft, swollen pick-up hose. Next you will see water in the fuel tank and the metal bracket holding the fuel pump and the pump itself will rust. The fuel, if left sitting, will then start to smell bad and the gas will separate. NEVER store the car with fuel for more than 6 months. Even stabilizer won't help. As for what it does to the injectors, since they are mostly metal they will probably corrode inside if there are any steel parts. When the corrosion breaks loose it will plug up the injector.
David Teitelbaum

[DMCMW Dave]

I think the problems are overblown. I'm not a fan of ethanol, I agree it's a boondoggle, don't get me wrong, but where I live due to the farm lobby it's been common since 1982 and non-optional since the early 90s. So I have a lot of experience with it in all our cars.

My personal DeLorean has been running nothing but ethanol-laced fuel as long as I've owned it (1998), and I'm still on the same injectors and fuel distributor that the car came with, and the pump and boot that I installed in around 1999. I opened it the tank up two years ago for an inspection and the tank looked like the day I assembled it. (After seeing a bunch of pretty nasty customer cars I started to get worried!).

The secret? Drive the car. As David T says, don't let it sit with this stuff in it. When I park the car for the winter (at least 4 months) I run the tank as low as I can and park it. In the spring I'll put new gas in before the first start. That's it. No stabilizer or other magic dust. No starting it every week all winter (bad!). It doesn't take much - if you are burning at least two tanks a year you'll be fine.

Another data point - I replaced the in-tank fuel pump on my Suburban at 140K miles/13 years and the inside of the tank was clean. I can't really complain about a pump failing after that kind of time and mileage. I've never had a fuel system failure on any other car I've owned.

One other thought - I recall people talking about issues when it first hit the market here, and that may be what some are seeing now as it has been forced on the rest of the country. Fuel deposits build up from any fuel over time. Ethanol is a "different" solvent and may tend to break loose stuff that regular gas didn't clean. So if you start running it on a car that ran only straight gas for a long time, the theory is that there will be some initial problems as deposits break loose. I can't say that I've seen this, at least not that I can prove, but it may be what contributes to what some people seem to complain about.

Most of the long-stored DeLoreans we see coming in have been store since the mid-1990s and the tanks are a mess. But I think any fuel will do that after 18 years.

[Bitsyncmaster]

I still have original injectors and no sign of trouble.

I have however replaced almost all the fuel hoses on my yard equipment. Those fuel hoses are very small so when you order them get about 3 foot of each size.

My rotor tiller even needs a new fuel tank because they put a foam in it that has turned to mush.

[DMC3165]

I agree with most everyone here. Having the car sit for a long period of time with e-10 fuel will do more damage then running it daily. Last winter for the month or so I didn't drive it, I filled the tank 1/2 way from empty with cam 2 100 octane unleaded. No ethanol there. But truthfully I use the car so much I doubt it made a difference. I'm currently using it daily and have put 10,000 miles on it since March 2010. The only fuel component I've changed is the accumulator. Other then that it hasn't been touched since the late 90's.

[dvonk]

When I park the car for the winter (at least 4 months) I run the tank as low as I can and park it. In the spring I'll put new gas in before the first start. That's it. No stabilizer or other magic dust. No starting it every week all winter (bad!).

please forgive my ignorance, but why is starting it every week bad?

(just trying to learn for when i will have hibernate my D for the midwest winters here... :wink:)

[content22207]

Most people just start the engine and let it idle, which is hard on the alternator and won't boil off condensation in the oil. Running the engine around 2,000 RPM for 15 or 20 minutes is fine (no different than running a stationary industrial engine). Be sure to stick the back end of the car fully outside the garage door.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[ssdelorean]

I still have original injectors and no sign of trouble.

I have however replaced almost all the fuel hoses on my yard equipment. Those fuel hoses are very small so when you order them get about 3 foot of each size.

My rotor tiller even needs a new fuel tank because they put a foam in it that has turned to mush.

I too am running on the original injectors (over 154,000 miles), also the original fuel pump and fuel lines. Only thing new in the fuel system are the rubber boots holding the fuel pump, the upper fuel pump cover and the two rubber hoses that attach to the fuel pump.

[Farrar]

So I guess the solution is: drive your DeLorean constantly if you use gasohol, or if you don't drive it frequently, drain the system as much as you can and fill up with fresh gasohol before starting 'er up.

Farrar

[DMCMW Dave]

Most people just start the engine and let it idle, which is hard on the alternator and won't boil off condensation in the oil. Running the engine around 2,000 RPM for 15 or 20 minutes is fine (no different than running a stationary industrial engine). Be sure to stick the back end of the car fully outside the garage door.

Bill Robertson
#5939

There is the slight difference of the fact that running it like that it is unloaded, but everything will get hot. But there really isn't any reason to do that. Put it away with clean oil in it and it will still be clean in the spring.

I can tell the "just let it idle for 10 minutes every week" cars - the car will have 8000 miles on it and the exhaust gaskets are gone.

[Ron]

Never higher than 10% around here. We can still get non-ethanol at 2 places.

[sean]

Never higher than 10% around here. We can still get non-ethanol at 2 places.

This specific to your area of the state? I haven't seen the straight stuff in a while.

[Ron]

This specific to your area of the state? I haven't seen the straight stuff in a while.Martins Mercantile (on GA HWY 60, ~15 miles before Blue Ridge for you) has no ethanol. Closes down after fishing season, anymore.
I can't remember the name of the other place, but it's right next to Fannin Towing in Blue Ridge on 515. It has both types.

[content22207]

Ethanol is added to normal gasoline as it is pumped into the tanker. Up to that point gasoline refining and distribution is the same as it's always been.

There is no reason a gas station owner can't simply request to have the ethanol spigot turned off as his truck is filled.

Why are we allowing Congress to impose this lunacy upon us? (No offense to those of you living in the corn belt, who have plenty of markets for your sweetener anyway).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Bitsyncmaster]

Ethanol is added to normal gasoline as it is pumped into the tanker. Up to that point gasoline refining and distribution is the same as it's always been.

There is no reason a gas station owner can't simply request to have the ethanol spigot turned off as his truck is filled.

Why are we allowing Congress to impose this lunacy upon us? (No offense to those of you living in the corn belt, who have plenty of markets for your sweetener anyway).

Bill Robertson
#5939

http://www.openmarket.org/2010/08/19/the-ethanol-industry-and-competition/

[David T]

In older cars (pre 1980's) the rubber and the carburetor parts were not meant to tolerate high levels of alcohol. Back then we used to add it to the gasoline, they called it "Dry Gas" and it was meant to prevent gas line freeze-up by keeping the water in suspension. E-10 melts the floats and the inlet valve on the old carburetors and the rubber parts in the fuel pumps. Newer rebuild kits have better more resistant parts so even the older cars can be "upgraded" to use E-10. E-10 seems to be OK as long as the car is used regularly. The damage happens during extended storage. That is why the old advice of filling the fuel tank to prevent condensation is no longer a good idea. With the new fuels the best way to store the car is to remove as much of the fuel as possible. Safer and when you take the car out of storage you can start it up on fresh (non-stabilized) fuel. I loosen up the fuel pump and stick a siphon hose in the tank and pull out most of what is inside. It also gives me a chance to peek in and see if there is any water or dirt in there.
Not too long ago I helped start up a "Barn Find". It was a Jag X120 that was in storage for over 20 years. It was stored with a full tank of gas. It was about 1/2 full of nasty sludge that smelled like bad shoe polish. Had to have the tank steamed out 3 times! The rest of the fuel system was also a mess. All of the rubber had to go and the fuel pump and carburetors (3 of them!) had to be rebuilt. And that wasn't E-10. At least I can say non of the metal parts were corroded. With E-10 the metal tank would probably have rotted away from the water absorbed by the alcohol.
David Teitelbaum