Fielding Interest - Trading Stage I Exhaust for Stock System (CA Owner)

[Ryan King]

Hello! So. Allow me to vent for a bit....

So, as I am sure a lot of you have seen on here, it is getting close to impossible to pass CA smog emissions, and our cars are slowly being choked out of passing in this state.
The bar is constantly being lowered and its becoming more and more difficult to pass smog.
I have tweaked many things, and have failed smog twice this last year and have been unable to pass smog requirements. So as of now, my car sits idly in my garage since I can't drive it.

It is always a struggle to try and pass the NOX category (Nitrous Oxide) of the smog test. I am starting to see more and more CA owners struggle to meet these standards. I am afraid in the next few years, the state of CA will put our cars into the "Gross Polluter" category, which would almost totally eliminate anyone from passing smog with an aftermarket system. There have been many attempts in recent years to pass a new bill to allow cars under 1985 to be exempt from smog, but alas, the government in CA doesn't agree/care about classic cars being snubbed off the road. Currently the limit is for cars 75 and older are exempt from smog requirements. There are always the rumors that cars who register as "classics" or "historical vehicles" are exempt. But this isn't the truth.

I am fed up and tired with trying to pass every two years and trying to jump over hurdles to make it work. Yes, it is possible to replace the catalytic converters. I have previously contacted the company who makes the cats for DMC-CA. Each cat, costs around 220 shipping. I would then need to remove my existing cats and have them welded onto the existing pipes. So in the neighborhood of 500+ to replace the cats. But again, this might allow me to pass this round. But if the state decides to lower the bar further, it will just become impossible to meet their standards.

Sp. I am trying to think for a LONG-TERM solution. I am thinking about giving up having my Stage I Houston Exhaust and trading it with a member here for a nice, gently used, stock exhaust system. Preferably an 83 type system with the nice cut tailpipes. My car has Stage I & II. This would be a down grade for me....but for me to continue enjoying driving my car, I feel like at this point sacrifices must be made....

Houston wants 2,150 for their exhaust new.
https://store.delorean.com/p-10337-stage-i-exhaust-upgrade.aspx

I am willing to field some offers from members on here if anyone is interested in a trade. Preferably someone who has a low-mileage system. I would consider a used stock system plus maybe some cash. PM me or feel free to post here. I appreciate any comments or suggestions to my dilemma. Maybe convince me out of giving up my nice exhaust. Or tell me you think I'm right. Or just give your input.

Thanks.

-Ryan

[Ryan King]

Follow up thought.

I *could* purchase these catalytic converters.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Catalytic-Converter-Right-Left-CATCO-6905R/351292642644?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

They are the similar to the cats that Josh uses for his systems, if I'm not mistaken. But these don't meet "CA air resources board" requirements. Some of me just wanted to buy them and give it a shot. Have them installed upside down, since some smog shops/techs will physically get underneath the car and read the numbers on the cats, and will automatically fail you if they don't meet standards.

So in case this would be brought up, I already prodded at the idea.

[SamHill]

Any interest in an old cat? Also have the muffler. 1981 though. Also have other bits like charcoal container I think. Might just be easier to join reasonable people and move out of CA.

[airfireman1]

I feel sorry for you, here in Perth Australia no smog testing and I don't even have a cat converter.
Would love a stage 1 exhaust but too expensive to buy and ship here as the Aussie dollar sucks at the moment.

[Delorean Industries]

I agree with Sammy hill. Why do you guys live in that dictatorship... basic human rights are superceded by this terrible idea that California isn't going to break off and fall into the ocean and that you guys alone can make a difference. I'll compile a list of smog shops that I know of that you can pay to get what you want. But seriously consider moving man.

[steve]

Ryan, I have the 83 (20069) with 11,000 on the clock when exhaust was removed. It does not have the cut back pipes but I believe all the parts are still there
clogging up the shop. The heat shield may be rotted but replaceable. Manifolds are good may be missing a hold down clamp or brace. Most of the exhaust came in boxes
when I purchased the car.

How to get to Colifornia?

Steve

[DMCVegas]

Follow up thought.

I *could* purchase these catalytic converters.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Catalytic-Converter-Right-Left-CATCO-6905R/351292642644?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

They are the similar to the cats that Josh uses for his systems, if I'm not mistaken. But these don't meet "CA air resources board" requirements. Some of me just wanted to buy them and give it a shot. Have them installed upside down, since some smog shops/techs will physically get underneath the car and read the numbers on the cats, and will automatically fail you if they don't meet standards.

So in case this would be brought up, I already prodded at the idea.

I'm almost certain that the Cats that Josh uses actually *are* CARB approved. The problem is that the manifolds are not. And even if your car's emissions are cleaner than stock, you'll still fail smog because of those manifolds.

This is why when it came time to move, we decided not to move out to California. I have no problem with emissions laws, and even if we stayed in Texas where they are not required, I'd still keep the catalytic convertors to help stay clean. But California is insane on it's emissions rules. Between that and their registration rules for dormant vehicles, it is a state which hates cars. Not just classic cars, but ALL vehicles.

We have a 2014 Ford Focus. 2014! A vehicle from the 21st century, and it's illegal to register in California! Hell, I technically can't even bring it with me on vacation for more than 2 weeks according to state law.

Honestly, cross over the border into Nevada. Emissions allowances are double on the tolerances, registration is only $60 give or take depending upon county, and if you do get smog-exempt plates they give you an annual allowance of 5,000 miles.

[David T]

I have a complete stock exhaust system I can trade you for your Stage 11. Even swap, we each pay shipping 1 way.

[kings1527]

I agree with Sammy hill. Why do you guys live in that dictatorship... basic human rights are superceded by this terrible idea that California isn't going to break off and fall into the ocean and that you guys alone can make a difference. I'll compile a list of smog shops that I know of that you can pay to get what you want. But seriously consider moving man.

Moving out of CA is a great option if you have no family and no stable job.

[Ryan King]

I have a complete stock exhaust system I can trade you for your Stage 11. Even swap, we each pay shipping 1 way.

Hey David Ill send you a PM

[Lwanmtr]

Id offer to trade my stock exhaust, but you'd have come up here and help me take it off... (and put the new one on)..lol

[Ryan King]

UPDATE -

So for now. I bought those aftermarket Catalytic Converters and will try to have them welded up by a local well known shop.

I really thought the idea over for awhile. A lot of what I think "killed my cats" was my Distributor was "tuned" to 18 degrees. This really adds a lot of extra unnecessary stress to the cats. So I have reduced the timing to within spec...about 14 degrees. I have a Stage II with Dons Crazy Cams from DMCCA. I don't really notice much of a performance reduction and I feel like the engine runs better being at 14 degrees. I will see how the numbers look after SMOG.

Aside from getting a stock exhaust, I feel like this the best long term solution available right now.

[Rich]

Really good to see this update, Ryan. I think you're on the right track.

You probably know that one of the Calif. smog test checkpoints is ignition timing. The timing spec is 13deg. BTDC +/-2deg so without adjusting down to 14deg. as you did the car likely would've failed on that criteria before they even sniffed the exhaust. Or did it ever pass smog at 18deg?

And just out of curiosity did you need to run premium (91 octane here) to keep the engine from pinging with that 18deg setting? Am setting aside the effect of the Stage II cams for the purpose of the question.

[vwdmc16]

Agreed, my local inspectors always check that too. I don't know how you can run that much timing and not have detonation, I just bumped my engine back up to 15 degrees which really perks up the responsiveness but I get a bit of pinging if I stab the throttle hard at lower rpms (vacuum advance works quickly), but I always run 87 octane too. Im curious how much more timing I could get away with on 91.

Side note I also have DpI cams and a volvo distributor, also still have my stock exhaust on untill I can dyno it and swap back to my DMCH system for back to back testing.

I'm having to keep my stock exhaust system in a box for 23 months between smog testing, because I cannot find anyone in the area who will visually pass and aftermarket exhaust kit on my car. Also according to the five gas analyzer I have, the DMCH exhaust system burns cleaner than factory.

[David T]

With CA being so strict you may have a hard time passing with those cams. Certainly not having the timing to spec will cause you to fail just as not having the stock exhaust, I don't think the Stage II is an approved part. To find out just exactly what base timing you should set you need to get in touch with DMCCA about their cams. You should probably use the highest octane you can get. If you hear any pinging you are doing damage to the pistons. Too much timing, too fast on the advance or not enough octane. Could also be the motor is running too hot. California is a tough State. Best to stay as stock as you can and you should be able to continue to pass.

[opethmike]

Agreed, my local inspectors always check that too. I don't know how you can run that much timing and not have detonation, I just bumped my engine back up to 15 degrees which really perks up the responsiveness but I get a bit of pinging if I stab the throttle hard at lower rpms (vacuum advance works quickly), but I always run 87 octane too. Im curious how much more timing I could get away with on 91.

Side note I also have DpI cams and a volvo distributor, also still have my stock exhaust on untill I can dyno it and swap back to my DMCH system for back to back testing.

I'm having to keep my stock exhaust system in a box for 23 months between smog testing, because I cannot find anyone in the area who will visually pass and aftermarket exhaust kit on my car. Also according to the five gas analyzer I have, the DMCH exhaust system burns cleaner than factory.

I run DPI cams/heads/exhaust, stock distributor, and EFI. I use 93 octane fuel here in NYS, and I have been running 20 degrees timing with no issue. I idle at 14.0 AFR, cruise around 14.5, and WOT is 13.1 AFR.

[David T]

I run DPI cams/heads/exhaust, stock distributor, and EFI. I use 93 octane fuel here in NYS, and I have been running 20 degrees timing with no issue. I idle at 14.0 AFR, cruise around 14.5, and WOT is 13.1 AFR.

As strict as NYS is, CA is another level stricter. Over there, even if you can pass emissions, if you don't have stock parts, or approved parts, they will still fail you. You may also be doing your timing advance differently too because you are using EFI. Not exactly comparing "apples with apples". The fuel may also be different, more or less Ethanol and other "things" in it. Altitude (Baro) can also be part of it too. Especially if you are using a knock sensor. That will automatically de-tune your timing so you don't ping if you're EFI controls timing.

[opethmike]

As strict as NYS is, CA is another level stricter. Over there, even if you can pass emissions, if you don't have stock parts, or approved parts, they will still fail you. You may also be doing your timing advance differently too because you are using EFI. Not exactly comparing "apples with apples". The fuel may also be different, more or less Ethanol and other "things" in it. Altitude (Baro) can also be part of it too. Especially if you are using a knock sensor. That will automatically de-tune your timing so you don't ping if you're EFI controls timing.

Uh... okay?

I wasn't trying to compare apples to apples, but I guess specifying in detail how I am doing what I am doing doesn't suggest that?

Also, thank you for letting me know how EFI works. I had no idea. It's not like I designed my own setup or anything.

[DKDMC]

Man I have the spec exhaust and headers on my car now. I hope I don't have smog issues next April! this is stressing me out!

[vwdmc16]

I run DPI cams/heads/exhaust, stock distributor, and EFI. I use 93 octane fuel here in NYS, and I have been running 20 degrees timing with no issue. I idle at 14.0 AFR, cruise around 14.5, and WOT is 13.1 AFR.


Efi and 93 octane? Lucky guy! Apparently we can't be trusted with an extra two octane points here in California.

Have any horsepower numbers? I'd love to know

[vwdmc16]

With CA being so strict you may have a hard time passing with those cams. Certainly not having the timing to spec will cause you to fail just as not having the stock exhaust, I don't think the Stage II is an approved part. To find out just exactly what base timing you should set you need to get in touch with DMCCA about their cams. You should probably use the highest octane you can get. If you hear any pinging you are doing damage to the pistons. Too much timing, too fast on the advance or not enough octane. Could also be the motor is running too hot. California is a tough State....



FWIW my car passes just fine with DPI cams, stock exhaust and stock timing on 87 octane here in Sacramento. I don't think any smog check will be able to notice the cams they aren't that aggressive, however I do know that they are absolutely not California legal.

[opethmike]

Efi and 93 octane? Lucky guy! Apparently we can't be trusted with an extra two octane points here in California.

Have any horsepower numbers? I'd love to know

I'm afraid I do not; I have never dyno'd the car. Feels similar to a stage 2, but with better torque down low and a bit smoother. So, better, but nothing earth shaking.

[Chris 16409]

The trick is to find a shop that doesn't know how a DeLorean is supposed to look. Once you get passed visual, the only part of the test that's an issue is NOx. Depending on where you live, some counties do NOx testing and others don't. In you live in an area where smog is low you just do an idle test and 2500 RPM test, no dynamometer. Certain counties are exepmt from the bi-annual smog test, only when you change ownership do you have to smog. Here is the CA Smog Map:

52388

The gray areas are Smog at "change of ownership" regions. Clint, if you get property in Amador country you will be golden. I live in Fresno County, but Mariposa is also gray county.

[Chris 16409]

This Memo from the BAR is also of interest. I have boxed the relevant info. Our Cars are 35 years old now (except 83s), so I'm interested in what parts of the smog test we are exempt from?

52389

[Lwanmtr]

Californy is kinda messed up....here in Wa, our cars are exempt completely..no ambiguous 'exempt from certain parts'....I had an 83 Mazda pickup when I lived down in LA for a while, glas I wasnt there long enough to try and get it licensed there.

[vwdmc16]

The trick is to find a shop that doesn't know how a DeLorean is supposed to look....

The gray areas are Smog at "change of ownership" regions. Clint, if you get property in Amador country you will be golden...


Oh yes I also had this thought last time I tried smoging my in my car. However it backfired on me quite badly, they had no idea what to look for, so they had to consult the CARB Book and read out that the car only has one catalytic converter, so right away they knew that the system required as mine with two catalytic converters was not correct. Instant fail.

I would sure love to have a property in that county, but I just don't make the kind of money where I can buy even a spot with mailbox on it just so I can smog a car there. Plus I would hate to have my insurance voided in an accident because my car is registered to an empty lot and I park it in my garage in another County.

I'm not going to live in California forever, the changes before then that would be nice but I really doubt it will.

[Bob635]

Ryan,

I agree that smog rules are out of control in some states. During my professional environmental career I was involved in the early research on smog testing program . We were also tied into U of I determine scientifically, if smog testing really did any good.

The conclusion after 5 years of testing "At best emission testing of cars, may reduce photochemical oxidant formation by 1%." The research
clearly showed in CA, that the major source of VOCs that causes smog, was the refineries. (but they of course have a lobbyist! You DON'T).
Then they turn these rules over to bureaucrats who want unnecessary rules to continue forever as job security. Never mind that this means
a waste of tax money and non productive use of resources.

The STUPIDEST EXAMPLE is Illinois. (Gee, why doesn't this surprise me, with the most bankrupt state and they only state where people are leaving!)

About 15 years ago, they decided to test car while using dynamometers. (not enough cars were failing so they had up the failure rate.)
The cost was $100,000 per testing lane. They spent $30,000,000 putting on dynos.

Then, they started BLOWING UP PEOPLE's transmissions, because thee dynos were overloading the cars drive train (to get more to fail!). After one year of this fiasco- and $5,000,000 in payouts to people whose cars they damaged. - THEY STOPPED THE WHOLE DYNO PROGRAM.

But their friends in the dyno equipment industry MADE MILLIONS!

I can't help thinking that these rules exist- supported by the car makers- to get people to buy new cars-because they really don't protect the environment.
They just scare people into thinking they do.

Obviously, the fear mongering has worked. How many junk yards do you see anymore? these allowed people to fix up their older cars.
Or, how about the quality of replacement parts. My experience is 50% are junk.

Government uses this and other programs to control people with "fear" and take away our property rights, albeit arbitrarily is this case by not allowing you to drive your classic car.