UN1 bell house adapter plate

[delgato]

Would any of you fine folks have a File of the bell housing measurements that you would be willing to share?

I am going to make an adapter plate for my electric motor to attach to the trans.

I have the info for the motor I plan to use.

It would be nice to have the correct UN1 manual trans measurements.

I know I could hand make an adapter plate easy enough.

However, it would be far better to have something more accurate made since it will need handle the motor spinning 4000RPMs or more.

Any assistance would be appreciated.

[opethmike]

Get a hold of Josh Schattenkirk or Nick Roedl.

[Josh]

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/gt40-tech-powertrain-transaxles/31320-302-renault-un1-adaptor-plate-drawing-download.html

Read through the thread, there is a pdf in it with the details you need. I can confirm these dimensions are correct.

I would not reccomend making it by hand, you can get a 1/2" adapter plate laser or waterjet cut for a reasonable price and it will be accurate to at least 0.010". But that is just me.

[Nicholas R]

What he said^

Start with the ford plate listed in that thread. It will give you the UN1 bolt and dowel locations relative to the center of the input shaft, which is really all you need.

Also like Josh said, do not do this by hand. This needs to be precision machined. Laser/Waterjet/CNC, one of these is a must; you need the accuracy.

[delgato]

Thank you for this info.

Now I will have a very good starting point to begin this journey(into madness).

[David T]

Thank you for this info.

Now I will have a very good starting point to begin this journey(into madness).

No matter how well the adapter plate is machined, it will still have to be centered to limit the amount of run-out. Run-out should be less than .003 as a general rule. Once centered you should then pin it to the bell housing so it can't move. You cannot depend on the bolts to hold it in position, the dowels or pins should do that. Failure to get that adapter plate right will result in a lot of broken parts from the input shaft of the transmission to the input bearing, clutch and other parts. It is not just concentricity, but also how far in the transmission,input shaft goes into the pilot bearing in the crank. This is critical machine work and must be checked after the part is made.

[opethmike]

No matter how well the adapter plate is machined, it will still have to be centered to limit the amount of run-out. Run-out should be less than .003 as a general rule. Once centered you should then pin it to the bell housing so it can't move. You cannot depend on the bolts to hold it in position, the dowels or pins should do that. Failure to get that adapter plate right will result in a lot of broken parts from the input shaft of the transmission to the input bearing, clutch and other parts. It is not just concentricity, but also how far in the transmission,input shaft goes into the pilot bearing in the crank. This is critical machine work and must be checked after the part is made.

Dave, how many engine swaps have you done yourself?

[David T]

Dave, how many engine swaps have you done yourself?

I have been involved with several, none of then Deloreans. What we are talking about here is simple mechanics. Bottom line, if you are going to attach a different transmission to the motor it is imperative that they be lined up correctly to avoid problems. If you don't know what you are doing and/or don't have the proper equipment, you need a good shop that does. Making an adapter plate is not an "off the shelf" kind of thing. It is a custom made part.

[opethmike]

I have been involved with several

So, you, yourself - none then?

[Ras12]

No matter how well the adapter plate is machined, it will still have to be centered to limit the amount of run-out. Run-out should be less than .003 as a general rule. Once centered you should then pin it to the bell housing so it can't move. You cannot depend on the bolts to hold it in position, the dowels or pins should do that. Failure to get that adapter plate right will result in a lot of broken parts from the input shaft of the transmission to the input bearing, clutch and other parts. It is not just concentricity, but also how far in the transmission,input shaft goes into the pilot bearing in the crank. This is critical machine work and must be checked after the part is made.

I have not done any motor swaps nor have I been remotely involved with any.

However, to David's point, pinning it to the bell housing in theory "should" prevent premature movement should the bolts loosen. Pinning things together to prevent future movement has been done for centuries from cars to construction and even in medical applications like orthopedic surgeries so irrespective of one's experience, I would say it is cheap, smart added assurance. But then again, I have never done any seriously major engine work other than basic maintenance and repairs so what the hell do I know...and I'm not being sarcastic...truthfully, I wouldn't have a clue other than my common sense analysis above.

[Josh]

The dowel pins are very important to have lined up properly as mentioned. The delorean has two dowels on the transmission, on the sides of the bellhousing.
Failure to properly line up these dowels or just simply not installing them can cause damage to your transmission, the input shaft coupler is usually the first item to go.

With this in mind, the tolerance of any laser or waterjet cutter is adequate for the placement of these dowels. No need to have the whole bolt and dowel pin pattern machined to a thousandths of an inch.

[opethmike]

The dowel pins are very important to have lined up properly as mentioned. The delorean has two dowels on the transmission, on the sides of the bellhousing.
Failure to properly line up these dowels or just simply not installing them can cause damage to your transmission, the input shaft coupler is usually the first item to go.

With this in mind, the tolerance of any laser or waterjet cutter is adequate for the placement of these dowels. No need to have the whole bolt and dowel pin pattern machined to a thousandths of an inch.

Pffft, what do YOU know about engine swaps?

[Josh]

No one is safe from the wrath of MIKE

[opethmike]

No one is safe from the wrath of MIKE

Or my gas.

[SS Spoiler]

Agreed on need for dowel pins to align engine/tranny.
I put a new five speed in my car just before going to DCS
Vegas at Palace Station. Talking with Don Steger and Dave
Swingle I mentioned that I had to shim my starter motor
to get it to work. They both looked at each other and
said "dowel pins" the starter fits in a machined hole and
can't be misaligned. After carefully driving back to MN
I was able to put the pins in without dropping the tranny.

[Nicholas R]

The UN1 bellhousing has 3 dowel pins; 2 that are mirrored on either side of the input shaft just below the top 2 bolts, and one in the area of the starter. I agree with Josh 100%. Of the 3 adapter plates I've made, one was waterjet cut and post machined (counterbored/tapped/etc.), the other 2 were CNC machined. I have full confidence in their accuracy. In general, CNC/Laser/Waterjet operations tend to have an accuracy of .001-.002" which is plenty for this application. The only caveat is that it's only as good as the CAD or G code. Get that right and you'll be fine.

[DMCMW Dave]

Thank you for this info.

Now I will have a very good starting point to begin this journey(into madness).

Isn't this the car that was supposed to be electric? (Sorry - the name online doesn't have much to do with your real world name)/

[David T]

The UN1 bellhousing has 3 dowel pins; 2 that are mirrored on either side of the input shaft just below the top 2 bolts, and one in the area of the starter. I agree with Josh 100%. Of the 3 adapter plates I've made, one was waterjet cut and post machined (counterbored/tapped/etc.), the other 2 were CNC machined. I have full confidence in their accuracy. In general, CNC/Laser/Waterjet operations tend to have an accuracy of .001-.002" which is plenty for this application. The only caveat is that it's only as good as the CAD or G code. Get that right and you'll be fine.

There is more than one way for errors to creep in. The first one is measuring inaccuracies. Next is the actual code. Now add the tolerances of the CNC machine. Rounding inaccuracies. Conversion errors. Some of the errors will be cumulative and some may cancel out others. The safest way to do this, especially if you are only making one, go ahead and make the plate and once you make it, position it on the motor, center it and then pin it. You should have enough room to move it if you leave the bolts slightly loose, measure and tap it into final position, and then pin it. if you don't have enough room to move it you can always drill out the bolt holes slightly to gain a bit more adjustment. If you can get a hold of someone's code who successfully made an adapter plate, that can save you some steps. Of course their code may not work on your machine so you might have to go the same route they did and have the same people make you a plate. This assumes you are trying to make the same transmission fit to the PRV that they did of course (and that they did it right!). It isn't Rocket Science but it does have to be done accurately.

[opethmike]

Dude, seriously, you DO realize the two guys you're lecturing have both done their own very successful LS swaps, right?

[delgato]

Isn't this the car that was supposed to be electric? (Sorry - the name online doesn't have much to do with your real world name)/

Yes it is.

This is why I have to custom make an adapter plate.

I also have to make a coupler for the electric motor shaft to the trans shaft.

What I have done was to get ahold of an old PRV crank shaft and cut the end off.

After I cut the end off I rounded it a bit. A lot of work.

Next I will take it to a machine shop to round it perfectly and add the motor shaft hole with a key way and set screws.

The other end is already perfectly set up for the fly wheel and trans shaft. I want to keep the manual cluch assembly.

I work at a metal fab shop with a lasers and precision turrets and other cool stuff.

I plan to make some tester pieces there. The final product will need to go to a machine shop since we can not laser 3/4" or 1" thick aluminum.

[Josh]

Yes it is.

This is why I have to custom make an adapter plate.

I also have to make a coupler for the electric motor shaft to the trans shaft.

What I have done was to get ahold of an old PRV crank shaft and cut the end off.

After I cut the end off I rounded it a bit. A lot of work.

Next I will take it to a machine shop to round it perfectly and add the motor shaft hole with a key way and set screws.

The other end is already perfectly set up for the fly wheel and trans shaft. I want to keep the manual cluch assembly.

I work at a metal fab shop with a lasers and precision turrets and other cool stuff.

I plan to make some tester pieces there. The final product will need to go to a machine shop since we can not laser 3/4" or 1" thick aluminum.

Very cool. Neat idea cutting the butt end of the crank off so you can retain the stock flywheel. Hopefully the stock clutch has enough force to handle the electric motor's torque.
I had an issue with this and moved to a heavier pressure plate.

[Guinney1971]

this thread is very interesting to us, as we are swapping out the PRV in #2292 due to block rot (gone through to an oil channel), and fitting a 24v 3.0 engine from a Peugeot 406. This engine is pretty much what the PRV over time evolved into, and we've bought a donor car with the later D9 version (210hp stock).
Josh, we've commented on your Facebook post regarding adapter plates, so hopefully we can sort this, as I know of several other UK owners that are looking at going this route to 'future proof' their cars, as at the end of the day, the PRV's are all 35+yrs old now, and with our famed climate here in the UK, people are starting to realise that 'block rot' is a ticking time bomb for our engines.
Kind regards
Claire & Phill, UK

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[David T]

If you can swap out the transaxle too you would not need an adapter plate and maybe wind up with a better transaxle. Probably need to customize the half-shafts but that is easy. You are also going to have to move over the engine harness and ECU unless you do a custom job with an aftermarket engine management system like M/S.

[Josh]

If you can swap out the transaxle too you would not need an adapter plate and maybe wind up with a better transaxle. Probably need to customize the half-shafts but that is easy. You are also going to have to move over the engine harness and ECU unless you do a custom job with an aftermarket engine management system like M/S.

How do you figure you are going to fit a transverse fwd trans in a delorean?

[opethmike]

How do you figure you are going to fit a transverse fwd trans in a delorean?

Did you just guru the guru?

[David T]

The PRV with the Renault transaxle was originally a front wheel drive package. The diff was flipped over so you don't get 5 reverse gears for the Delorean. I don't know what is in the donor but if it is possible to use the transaxle it offers the possibility of a better transmission and you don't have to try adapting the motor to the Renault box. It becomes even more important if you try to transplant the motor and the ECU is also integrated into the transmission. Of course you have to be able to fit it in if you can.

[opethmike]

The PRV with the Renault transaxle was originally a front wheel drive package. The diff was flipped over so you don't get 5 reverse gears for the Delorean. I don't know what is in the donor but if it is possible to use the transaxle it offers the possibility of a better transmission and you don't have to try adapting the motor to the Renault box. It becomes even more important if you try to transplant the motor and the ECU is also integrated into the transmission. Of course you have to be able to fit it in if you can.

Dave, you've never done your own engine swaps. Why are you trying to "educate" somebody who is well known for pulling off an excellently done swap?

[David T]

Dave, you've never done your own engine swaps. Why are you trying to "educate" somebody who is well known for pulling off an excellently done swap?

I have been involved in several swaps, just none in a Delorean. I am only offering suggestions, I don't know why you have a problem with this. Isn't that what these forums are all about? Giving each other ideas?

[Guinney1971]

apologies for delay in responding, original donor car fell through, but picked another one up from London yesterday.

The PRV essentially evolved into the L7X PSA/Renault unit - the one we've got is the later one with VVT (reworked by Porsche), but pre-multiplex wiring.

We'll be transferring as much as possible to the DeLorean, the engine is circa 211hp stock (with catalytic converter), but we don't need a catalyst on a pre 1993 car here, so we wont be fitting one :)

Here's our new victim, June 2000 registered, 112,000 miles, car is battered to hell, but the engine is great and has very good performance.

Will start pulling it apart in the next few weeks all being well.
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