Selling a DeLorean to an overseas buyer

[SBL]

As some of you may know, I have my car up for sale. I have only announced it here on the forum, no eBay or other places. I have had several PMs from people overseas who want to purchase the car. I was wondering if anyone has had experience in this arena that they could share. Are there some definite do's and don'ts? One thing I am reluctant to do, of course, is to tell anyone my bank account number so they can transfer money, but I am not sure of what else can be done.

Anyway, some advice would be helpful.

steve

[Michael]

Dracula aka Chad has sold 2 cars overseas, a DeLorean to France and just recently his Excalibur. I don't know if he posts here anymore, but he is active on dmctoday

[Alex Brooks]

Hello I sold my first Delorean 01955 to Simid ( Simon) in Australia. I posted that car for sale on here we Emailed back and forth a lot talked on the phone a few times. I had some local offers but simon seem the most real and interested. we agreed on a priced at fair value. the only way to easy get the money was to wire it. I just moved all my money out of the account for safety reason and removed any over draft protection and set the account to just decline anything over the 5 bucks i had in account. Simon sent the money it did take almost a day longer to get the money than his bank said it would Im sure we were both just as nervous about it. with the customs they needed the title to stay with the car for some reason so just sent him a package with some manuals and extra stuff I had. about a month later a shipper came and picked the car up and took it to L.A. I believe it sat there for a few weeks and they loaded it up on a ship and in about 6 weeks after that he finally got the car.

[Dangermouse]

Bank to bank money transfer is much more common in Europe than in the US, surprisingly.

I would suggest personally visiting your bank branch and talking over what you are thinking of doing and what precautions you can take . As well as the account number you will need the bank's SWIFT code and possibly the iBAN number, if your bank has one. (everyone in Europe knows their banks SWIFT and IBAN numbers; that's how common bank transfers are over there - the bank tellers in your branch probably don't even know their own banks :) ). One possibility is setting up a brand new account so your existing account is insulated. Your bank can advise better on costs etc.

Another option is that the buyer can actually get a check made out in $ at his/her local bank, that they can mail to you. This of course takes time, time to create the check, time to mail, time to clear.

Importantly for a sale of this size, make sure you know what exchange rates will be charged as well as any fees.

While I have not sold a car overseas, I did sell something of $3k value to a person in Venezuela of all places and just used bank transfer without issue, though admittedly I was nervous for a couple of weeks.

[David T]

Whatever you do or how you do it, do not hand the Title or the car to ANYONE until you KNOW the money is good and in your account. NEVER accept a check for more than the deal and never accept a 3rd party check endorsed to you. The sale must be done "As is and Where Is" right here in the US. Overseas buyers are willing to pay higher prices. I sold a Delorean to a buyer in Italy. The deal was handled by a broker. He made all of the arrangements including shipping, customs, etc. I also sold a car (not a Delorean) directly to a buyer in Russia through an associate here in the US. Essentially the sale was as if I sold it to a local. I got my money before they got the car and the Title. Once it left my driveway (and I had my money) it doesn't concern me about who bought it or where it goes. A legitimate overseas buyer will understand the necessity of you having the money before they get the car. You will have no practical means of recourse if anything goes wrong.

[dn010]

I've sold numerous vehicles overseas, mainly Germany, Belgium, etc. Every transaction I've done was a wire transfer and I haven't had any issues, just as long as they know how much USD you need in the end; they've always been great with the conversion on their end as it was the exact amount I sold for. I think shipping is more of a PITA than getting the funds. Of course, these were all sales on ebay with the protection they offer and you can see the buyers history/feedback, etc. On here, I'd be suspect to someone reaching out with only 1 post on their count and a brand new user ID. I'd also be suspect to those who agree to a price and don't care to see any additional pictures or ask any questions about the car. And then, of course, you have those who search for people selling cars and send you a link telling you they want a vin report through that specific site.

To add to David's post regarding overseas buyers are willing to pay higher prices - one buyer explained to me that it was much cheaper to buy classic cars in the US with all fees and shipping, than it is to purchase them overseas around their country. I'm not sure if this is true or not, but I can agree that they're always willing to pay up.

[DeLoreanGo Arran]

Depending on the country in question you might also be able to put your mind at rest by contacting someone well known in the local club, assuming it's a country already populated with DeLoreans...? They will know more about the typical processes in their country, what the buyer might need, and probably in many cases might be able to vouch for the person or tell you what they know about them perhaps - may or may not help?
I say this because I have personally "brokered" a number of sales this way, I will quite often know or know of either the buyer or seller if they are British. Most recently I was able to put a foreign buyer's mind at ease because I knew someone in his country quite well and I knew the seller (in our country) even better. As you are, both sides were very worried about the distance and large amounts of money.
Although I'd say an overseas buyer is going to be a lot more worried about you than you should be of them - you have the car after all.... Presumably you're not handing it over until you see the money? Most of them will be buying it unseen - what happens if you decide to remove the rear sunshade louvres for example before shipping it? They are going to have a hard time coming after you for $1000 from all the way "over there". Not that I'm suggesting you're planning this of course! ;)

As said above, if you're talking about a European or British buyer, bank transfer is the normal way we buy things (I don't know how else you'd do it even??) - I personally use a peer-to-peer (bank account based) exchange service which offers a much better exchange rate and in the case of buying from the US I would just need the domestic bank details (rather than the IBAN number etc.), but IBAN/SWIFT is the more common way. Whilst it might seem odd, I can't see what use that information is going to be in the wrong hands? You can't just withdraw money from someone with just an account number can you? It's quite normal for businesses over here, for example, to publish their full bank details to anyone.
You're only other option is going to be PayPal or something - and that is a full of horror stories, as the buyer can back out after he has the car....

Prices - some countries are better than others, but it all depends on import taxes. Currently the UK is a low-cost entry into Europe, although the exchange rate isn't helping things at the moment (it's quite expensive for us).

If you need any help with a British buyer just send me a PM. I might be able to assist.

[itatwork]

I think its dangerous to assess somebody according to quantity of posts were made. DMCTalk is a very specialized forum after all. Also the duration of the account activity is unfortunately without meaning, especially if the person himself just started looking for a Delorean. Because you can read here in the forum even without an account. Would you rate a seller with few posts over a long period also as critical - i don't think so.

In Europe almost everything works by bank transfer (salary, onlines shopping, rent payment, donations ...). Checks are outdated and are issued if at all still in €. Everyone has its account data on hand and these are also exchanged or published. But there is also the possibility of unauthorized debiting. To counter the problem the suggestion of Alex or Dangermouse with opening an additional account is excellent.

Here in Europe there are special saving accounts where you can get deposits by wire from every other account, but debiting (transferring the money) is only possible into the direction of your own reference account. Thus eliminating the risk of unauthorized debiting. Most of these account are also free. The American equivalent could be "money market accounts" claims wikipedia.

In the meantime, there are also various referral service providers, which can be used to transfer money at low cost all over the world (perhaps arranj means this with peer-to-peer echange service?). Which of my experience can be used without hesitation. www.transferwise.com and www.azimo.com are some of those.

Here a comparison of the resulting transfer costs at the example of a sale price of 28000 $:


Swift: 20€ fixed fee for an "OUR payment order" (means that the buyer bears the full cost) + 1% of transfer order = approx 304$


Paypal (Sending money to friends and family): 0.30$ fixed fee + 1% of transfer order = 280$ for sending, receiving is free i think.


Paypal (Selling): 280$ sending + 4.4 % of transaction amount = approx. 1500$


Transferwise.com: approx 120$


Azimo.com: approx 112$

Buyers from overseas are not willing but have to pay automatically more due to additional transport, handling and insurance costs of about 2000$. And do not forget the import taxes and duties in the home country (in germany: 7% VAT and 0% import duties for vehicles >30 years, otherwise 19% VAT and 10% import duties)!

This makes a final price of approx. 32400$ (16% more!)

I think the shipping cannot be as terrible as Dan claims. You should only agree to assign an experienced forwarding company (like www.cfrrinkens.com) and they take care of everything relating to shipping and export (receiving, trucking to/from terminal, loading/unloading, block & brace at terminal, US customs clearance, export documentation and shipping). Choose a pickup date and simply hand over the vehicle together with the title and that's it.

[DeLoreanGo Arran]

Yes, Transferwise is what I was referring to. Your cost illustration is only half the story, because banks and PayPal build in a hidden percentage in the exchange rate. PayPal is approximately 3.5% - so for a F&F transfer on your illustration it is approx. $1260 in fees, or as a "sale" it is approx $2400 (it's very complicated to work out!).
With a bank transfer it's much the same - typically they hide about 3% in the exchange rate, plus other various fees, so you'd allow about $1200-$1500 in fees. With Transferwise and others there is a fixed fee of 0.5% and the exchange rate is the exact real rate - so $140 in fees. In all other respects it works just like a bank transfer - the buyer transfers £ or € to Transferwise, then the same day, they transfer $ to the seller. I've done this about 50 times with no issues. Seems a pretty safe method to me, especially as far as the seller is concerned.

[David T]

As the seller you should not have to worry about the exchange rate or the shipping. Or any fees, taxes, duty or anything other than the sale price to you in USD. That is all on the buyer or their broker. When you get the American dollars in your bank account (it doesn't matter how it gets there but a wire is the usual method) you hand them the Title and the car. They may ask you to fill out some paperwork but that doesn't bind you to anything, it is just a Bill of Sale essentially, for customs. Do not get all hung up over what the buyer has to go through, once the car leaves your driveway you are done. Make sure you get your plates off it and remove all of your personal stuff and give the buyer anything that was bargained for like extra parts, books, etc. Just like if you sold it locally. While all of the rest of the info is interesting, keep focused on your interests as the seller. It is not up to you to deliver the car unless that was part of the negotiation and you agreed to it.

[Delta DeLorean]

When I bought my car in New Jersey and shipped it to The Netherlands I used a escrow service the shipping company offered. This cost me 500$, but made it a safe deal for me. The owner of the Delorean got a check from the guy that came to pick up the car, after inspecting the car and title.
Before the pick up some paperwork had to be made, but nothing dificult. I think a bill of sale with a notary stamp.
I have bought 3 cars over the years in the USA and never had any problems. Some sellers are not willing to deal with overseas people, that is up to them, I just find sombody who has no problems with it. 2 cars I got in contact true Ebay, but never had the high bid. Just contact them later if the car didn't sell and agreed on a price.

[kenny]

I think it's all been covered above. I bought my car from the USA. Buyer should arrange the shipping, Europeans use bank transfer as standard, buyer need a bill of sale and the title for shipping/ importing. There is much more risk to the buyer as the money is transferred days before the car is picked up and 4-6 weeks before the car arrives.

[David T]

Which is why most overseas buyers will arrange the sale through a broker. The broker handles the money, the paperwork, verifies the car is what is represented, the shipping etc. They are familiar with what needs to be done with customs, prepares the car for shipping, all of the things the buyer would do if he was here. It does cost but it adds a layer of protection and they can usually expedite the process. It seems there are brokers that specialize as to what countries they deal with. For instance one may only work for customers in Germany while another only does Italy or Poland. Typically they will fill a container with not only your car but all kinds of freight that goes to that country. Here in the US they are called aggregators.

[David T]

I was at the Hershey car show this year and found a broker who specializes in overseas sales. Anywhere. For anyone who is interested I am putting up his website. I have no idea if he is any good, he is just one that I found that claims to be able to do deals. Says he can handle the logistics, duty, taxes, currency, paperwork, the whole thing.

www.frommamerica.com

He is based in Paterson and works closely with Horseless Carriage who is also based in Paterson NJ. I have used H/C and they are first-class. If they are working together this broker must be good.

[SBL]

Just to wind this up, and hopefully be helpful for the next person.

I sold my car to a man from the UK, who flew over here to see it and drive it.

I set up a temporary account at my bank in order to receive the wire transfer. Because of my particular standing with the bank, there was no charge for the account, the transfer, or the currency exchange. The buyer sent a test amount to see if it all worked, and it did. He picked a company to handle the transport, and they had me send the title to the transport company. This was done right after he wired me the rest of the money for the sale, and I moved it out of the temporary account and over to another account.

The transporter came today to get the car and take it to the Jacksonville, FL port. It was an open transport vehicle. I had hoped that it was a closed vehicle for the buyer's sake, just for the added protection.

The buyer told me that he would not get the car until Dec 2nd ! To me, that is too long and I bet with some shopping around he could have cut the time in 1/2. Otherwise, the whole process was smooth and the risk was with the buyer. The fact that he came over and met me and examined the car reduced the risk somewhat, and quite frankly made me feel better too, because he knew what he was getting from first hand experience.

steve

[MikeWard]

Glad it all worked out. At the end of the day as you have highlighted, the greatest risk is with the buyer.


The buyer told me that he would not get the car until Dec 2nd ! To me, that is too long and I bet with some shopping around he could have cut the time in 1/2. Otherwise, the whole process was smooth and the risk was with the buyer.
The shipping process itself is very much a waiting game, a 6+ week wait is not uncommon. The longest portion is the time it takes the boat to get from A to B, but there is also the customs clearance that is required at both the port it is leaving from, and at the destination port. Plus import fees that need to be calculated and paid before the shipping company will release the car for collection.

Example timescale below from when I helped a friend of mine ship a car over a few years ago.
53930