Clutch died

[Bitsyncmaster]

I was driving to a tech session this morning. I was in 5 th gear going about 60 MPH and suddenly my engine RPM shot up. Thinking maybe it slipped out of gear I continued on. Shortly later it did it again. Kept trying and it just keep getting more often so I pulled off the highway and checked the clutch fluid. Fluid was OK so I turned around and tried to get home (1 hour drive). Well I would get less distance each time and finally stopped and called a tow truck.

There was really no sign of slipping it would just act like the clutch was depressed suddenly. Happened in all gears. When I got home I was able to back up and pull forward into the garage.

So anyway, without a lift what's the best solution? I'm just guessing the clutch plate is to thin but I thought that would show slipping going up a hill.

[Bitsyncmaster]

My photo of shame:jawdrop: First time on a tow truck.

[Rich]

Yes, classic symptoms of a worn-out clutch disc. Sorry to see the sad picture but no shame since there's no preventive maintenance for clutch discs.

Clutch hydraulics aren't the problem since the failure mode for that system is a fully-engaged clutch. The slip problem may come and go with temperature in there, perhaps a reason it worked OK after the tow home.

Very small chance your pressure plate failed but the access for that is the same as for the clutch, so in you go.

If you plan to do it in your garage then the engine and tranny come out the back together. Plenty of guidance on that method in Section C:04 of the Workshop Manual - and in this forum. The manual also tells how to drop the transmission, engine-in, in a different section but that's a lift job.

Good time to renew your motor/transmission mounts, among several other things.

[Bitsyncmaster]

If you plan to do it in your garage then the engine and tranny come out the back together. Plenty of guidance on that method in Section C:04 of the Workshop Manual - and in this forum. The manual also tells how to drop the transmission, engine-in, in a different section but that's a lift job.

Thanks. I have steel I beams supporting the ceiling in my garage. Would it be possible to lift the engine and tranny with a come along and push the car out? So in other words do I need the car off the wheels when removing the the engine and tranny?

[David T]

You do not have to remove the motor. It can be done by lifting the car up high on jack stands and taking the transmission out underneath using a floor jack. Hardest part is getting all of the covers off of the bell housing. If you do leave the motor in you must support it. Other things to consider while you do this job, splitting the case and replacing the roll pins on the 2nd rail shift shaft, new seals for the transmission and the rear engine seal, resurfacing the flywheel, replacing the clutch plate, pilot bearing, pressure plate, and throw-out bearing, lubricating the shift fork. Drain the gear oil from the transmission BEFORE you take it out. You may also want to check and replace the clutch slave and master cylinder and if you don't have the S/S hose, now is a good time to put it in. Check the rubber bushings in the shifter linkage and readjust the linkage after putting the tranny back. Another task is to clean and relubricate the C/V joints. Don't let the half-shafts hang and then bend the cups that hold the boots.

[Rich]

Thanks. I have steel I beams supporting the ceiling in my garage. Would it be possible to lift the engine and tranny with a come along and push the car out? So in other words do I need the car off the wheels when removing the the engine and tranny?

First, David's right that you can drop just the tranny if you get the car up high enough. F:05:01 covers it. Note all of his points as well.

As for the question of lifting the assembly and pushing the car if you pull the motor/transm, yes, that would work. The car can be on its wheels. Sounds like you're sure there's room to get the car far enough forward for you to get clearance on the motor/trans to break the clutch/transmission from the engine. You'll need to get under the car beforehand to take off the transmission mount bolts and the linkage so jackstands are involved at some point.

Here's a reference post you might find worthwhile: http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?1912

[SS Spoiler]

Iv'e pulled my trans twice and replaced it once using jack
stands. Amen on every thing Dave said plus check trans
mounts for cracks {weld 'em]. Don't put ring gear in backwards
or you will have 5 speed reverse and 1 speed forward.....

[opethmike]

Iv'e pulled my trans twice and replaced it once using jack
stands. Amen on every thing Dave said plus check trans
mounts for cracks {weld 'em]. Don't put ring gear in backwards
or you will have 5 speed reverse and 1 speed forward.....

The ring gear is on the flywheel, so... :)

[tommyrich]

Dave,
Sorry to hear about your clutch woes...from my experience...it is not an easy job to do on jacketands, but doable. I struggled the first time. The advice I can think of is there there are 2 dust shields, one on the passenger side that holds the magnetic pickup (that is not used) and one on the bottom. They must be removed for the transmission to come out. They can be tricky. Also, it is a good idea to replace the engine rear main seal while the tranny is out..also tricky. But what isn't tricky on the DeLorean 🤐
Good luck,
Tom

[kings1527]

Probably not the answer you're looking for Dave, but I happily paid Danny at DMC CA to replace my clutch a few years ago and it's been perfect since. I don't have the equipment to drop the trans and I understand they're a couple things indigenous to the DeLorean clutch system that you have to be proper with. Can't remember exactly what it/they are. While the trans was out, it was a perfect time to replace the rear main since it was leaking. It was money well spent with me rather than hassle with the time and the "I think I know how" just to find out something isn't right and I have to do it again. It's an undertaking. But on the other hand, there's only one way to learn.

[Christian Dietrich]

I guess a way to support the engine if dropping the trans separately it's a place the beam across the back end of the engine compartment and hook it to the eye Loop that is bolted to the back head? Going to be doing my clutch one day but it is fine now knock on wood but is this a correct procedure by placing the beam across the back end?

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

[David T]

I just used a small bottle jack and a block of wood underneath. Nothing fancy like an engine support bracket from above you you need to do on many cars.

[Mike Griese]

If you don't need the car for winter, now is a good excuse to pull the lump and the gearbox and do all those hard to do things. Like replacing the clutch slave cylinder, cleaning up the valley of death (heck cleaning up everything), fixing any oil leaks, replacing old vacuum lines, all those impossible to reach coolant lines behind the intake manifold - all that deferred maintenance stuff that gets put off because of access issues.

[Josh]

Iv'e pulled my trans twice and replaced it once using jack
stands. Amen on every thing Dave said plus check trans
mounts for cracks {weld 'em]. Don't put ring gear in backwards
or you will have 5 speed reverse and 1 speed forward.....

If you end up disassembling your transmission for a clutch job... you are doing it very wrong.

[David T]

If you end up disassembling your transmission for a clutch job... you are doing it very wrong.

I don't agree. It would be a shame to do the clutch and then soon after have an issue because you didn't replace a $0.20 roll pin. The transmission is already out. What I don't agree with is pulling the motor to do this job. All of the other work that could need to be done on the motor can be done easily enough without removing it. That includes the rear seal. While I understand your reasoning, to limit "mission creep", a lot of this depends on judgement and experience. if you are not careful a clutch can turn into a restoration. Other concerns can include your workspace (is it heated, lighted, big enough for the job), your abilities, tools, time and finances. IMHO there are not very many reasons to pull the motor out of a Delorean. It is not like many exotic cars that the motor needs to come out for routine service like timing belts.

[Drive Stainless]

I don't agree. It would be a shame to do the clutch and then soon after have an issue because you didn't replace a $0.20 roll pin. The transmission is already out. What I don't agree with is pulling the motor to do this job. All of the other work that could need to be done on the motor can be done easily enough without removing it. That includes the rear seal. While I understand your reasoning, to limit "mission creep", a lot of this depends on judgement and experience. if you are not careful a clutch can turn into a restoration. Other concerns can include your workspace (is it heated, lighted, big enough for the job), your abilities, tools, time and finances. IMHO there are not very many reasons to pull the motor out of a Delorean. It is not like many exotic cars that the motor needs to come out for routine service like timing belts.

Hear that Josh S.? Better think about your abilities next time you go hoisting the engine out. The only reason you haven't destroyed the whole car by now pulling the engine 6 times is luck. Pure luck. Luck that will run out and before you know it, a wheel falls off. Oh wait.

[SamHill]

Question for the Master of Bitsyncs: how many miles did you get out of your clutch? This is always a subject I'm interested in. The consensus I'm getting is that 50K miles is pretty good for a clutch in these things. SAD!

[Bitsyncmaster]

Question for the Master of Bitsyncs: how many miles did you get out of your clutch? This is always a subject I'm interested in. The consensus I'm getting is that 50K miles is pretty good for a clutch in these things. SAD!I've put about 10,000 on it myself. The PO said the clutch was replaced so the car had 21,000 when I bought it.

[SamHill]

I've put about 10,000 on it myself. The PO said the clutch was replaced so the car had 21,000 when I bought it.

In other cars, when someone tells me they burn a clutch in so few miles I make certain quiet judgements about their skills behind the wheel, but that's certainly not the case here. I talked with someone at DMCMW on the subject and I can't quote directly, but the indirect message I took from it was not to be so dissapointed based on the average lifespan. Then again, we are hard on them in this particular region we live in.

[dn010]

To go along with what everyone else has already said, I'd like to add that a transmission jack will make your life much easier and I use a ratchet strap from the engine "lift eyelet" to the frame to keep it from moving - a bottle jack under the engine just puts more crap in the way of you working under the car. Make sure you have, or your kit comes with an alignment tool.

[dn010]

you didn't replace a $0.20 roll pin.

While I understand your point, you're misleading people when you say this since you'll also need gaskets, seals, sealants, oil, locknuts etc. It costs more than twenty pennies.

[David T]

While I understand your point, you're misleading people when you say this since you'll also need gaskets, seals, sealants, oil, locknuts etc. It costs more than twenty pennies.

But you get my point. All of the "heavy lifting" to R & R the transmission is being done, it just makes sense to go over the insides of it. Especially if you do not know the history and if it was ever abused from driving it with a bad clutch hydraulic system. Being a 30 + year old car, changing the seals is probably due anyway. If you can't do this yourself and are on a very tight budget I can understand how you would be tempted to forgo touching the tranny. If you have to pay someone to do it, it will cost a LOT more than $0.20!

[FABombjoy]

Question for the Master of Bitsyncs: how many miles did you get out of your clutch? This is always a subject I'm interested in. The consensus I'm getting is that 50K miles is pretty good for a clutch in these things. SAD!
It's crazy, right? Based on the pics the clutch discs seem to show minimal wear. The pressure plates must have tinfoil springs.

Seems like the stock Valeo p/n is questionable (801300).
Anyone tried an Alpine turbo clutch (801299) or any other Alpine clutch options?

[Delorean Industries]

It's crazy, right? Based on the pics the clutch discs seem to show minimal wear. The pressure plates must have tinfoil springs.

Seems like the stock Valeo p/n is questionable (801300).
Anyone tried an Alpine turbo clutch (801299) or any other Alpine clutch options?

We use the alpine clutch on all of our performance builds along with a custom stepped flywheel spec. This does require a different master cylinder configuration as the stock unit makes the car hard to drive. You find yourself putting a little more than desired body weight into every shift.

[SamHill]

We use the alpine clutch on all of our performance builds along with a custom stepped flywheel spec. This does require a different master cylinder configuration as the stock unit makes the car hard to drive. You find yourself putting a little more than desired body weight into every shift.

Without holding you to it, would expect the DPI Alpine Clutch/different master to last roughly twice as long?

[Delorean Industries]

Without holding you to it, would expect the DPI Alpine Clutch/different master to last roughly twice as long?

Stock application yes for sure. We do install these in cars that are not boosted for owners eventually wanting to do the upgrade completely. IE forged internal bottom end with ports and return fittings installed for turbochargers. On boosted applications its all about how you beat on the component. It is a giving device that supplies a slip between to components. Its wear life is subject to this process and how it is used.

[DMC-81]

But you get my point. All of the "heavy lifting" to R & R the transmission is being done, it just makes sense to go over the insides of it. Especially if you do not know the history and if it was ever abused from driving it with a bad clutch hydraulic system. Being a 30 + year old car, changing the seals is probably due anyway. If you can't do this yourself and are on a very tight budget I can understand how you would be tempted to forgo touching the tranny. If you have to pay someone to do it, it will cost a LOT more than $0.20!

Yeah, even if you do the transmission refurb yourself, you're looking at roughly $300 as a best case cost above the clutch parts and flywheel resurfacing. If you run into pitted drive axle flanges, a rusted clutch fork, or opt for upgraded parts (e.g. a Nachi pilot bearing or a bulletproof coupler) that's all extra. That also doesn't include refurbing the drive axles.

At a minimum, I recommend to anyone removing the transmission that they remove the rear cover and check/add red loctite to the secondary shaft nut. (Ask me how I know :( ). In fact, that can be done with the transmission in the car.

[FABombjoy]

Awesome, that's good to know!


the stock unit makes the car hard to drive
This is pretty much a free-standing statement anyway, depending on the person :D

I'll never forget my first and only parade experience.

[BABIS]

This does require a different master cylinder configuration as the stock unit makes the car hard to drive. You find yourself putting a little more than desired body weight into every shift.

Josh is possible to buy the new master alone ?

[Delorean Industries]

Yes!

Our complete hydraulic kit offering is here:

http://www.deloreanindustries.com/clutch-hydraulics-complete/

This is a front to back update on the car. Gets rid of the hard line section across the transmission and includes mounting brackets etc to run the line. Also no issues trying to seal the system as with the factory flare fittings. Everything is switched over to AN. Res. is updated and the failure prone feed line to the master is updated as well to a braided section with AN fittings.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm going to delay doing much of anything with the clutch problem mostly because of limited and trying to keep up building inventory of my products. My otterstat has mostly been on hold because my inventory on a few items has got to low.

So far I think I will get the car up as high as possible and drop the tranny. I have not decided if I will do the roll pin yet but I do plan to check that nut that backs off. I also have that coupler that nick sold to install but that pretty much requires a full tear down of the tranny.

[Flash66]

In my experience, just a couple of days ago in fact, it's much easier to pull the engine out of a Delorean than the transmission. When I pulled my trans last about 15 years ago it was a major undertaking which lasted just about morning till night on my back. The other day, I had the engine out in about 3 hours tops! Clutch done, (Valeo Kit does NOT come with an alignment tool!) also, I've read in several places that the dust plates are really not necessary to reinstall which makes future pulls of the motor and trans much simpler. I am curious about the roll pin you guys are talking about? If it's the 2 roll pins installed in the block to line up the trans, mine were in great shape before dropping the motor back in.

[Josh]

In my experience, just a couple of days ago in fact, it's much easier to pull the engine out of a Delorean than the transmission. When I pulled my trans last about 15 years ago it was a major undertaking which lasted just about morning till night on my back. The other day, I had the engine out in about 3 hours tops! Clutch done, (Valeo Kit does NOT come with an alignment tool!) also, I've read in several places that the dust plates are really not necessary to reinstall which makes future pulls of the motor and trans much simpler. I am curious about the roll pin you guys are talking about? If it's the 2 roll pins installed in the block to line up the trans, mine were in great shape before dropping the motor back in.

The roll pins are inside the transmission, they hold the shift forks on to the shafts. There is a smaller roll pin installed inside the regular roll pin. This is just an extra preventative measure to ensure it does not back out. It is a fairly common practice in other manual transmissions.

[Flash66]

Ah! Right on Josh! Thanks for clarifying this. I was worried about the roll pins in the block putting the motor back in as I never got the nice plop sound when mating the motor to the trans ever in a Delorean via hoist. Finally sat well together and bell housing bolts threaded in easy so I guess all is well. Will know once I get everything buttoned up. All in all pulling the motor out of a Delorean is really straight forward and easy to do. Great opportunity to clean up everything also! My frame cleaned up like new as well!


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171010/026e3e853dab144aaaf548aef5d0b2cc.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171010/e4bc15ec692e65892c435f4afa7f4cad.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171010/19eb6f14c231c6571df93ef270a19fda.jpg

[dn010]

Having pulled my transmission for various reasons at least half a dozen times, I have to say for me it was much easier to remove the transmission only instead of the engine. There is much less to disconnect, no fuel lines to mess with, you don't have to drain and refill your cooling system. The hardest part is removing the axles but if you have them (I know Dave does), it's simple to remove Allen bolts than it is the hex head original ones, saving you a ton of time. I also found it was easier to align the engine/transmission using the transmission than it was using the engine when I installed my swapped engine. Dust shields were mentioned - I haven't had them installed for over a decade with no issue, I think I even lost the one that holds the "magnetic pickup" so I didn't have a choice.

[Flash66]

I noticed the magnetic pickup in mine as well but was unsure what the hell it was for lol!

[Bitsyncmaster]

My dust shield for the magnetic pickup was just hanging (on the exhaust) when I bought my car. I guess when the clutch was replaced they could not bolt it back up. So I just removed the plate and removed the diagnostic plug also.

I need to pull one axle anyway to do new boots. The other axle is new. So what is the alignment tool? How is it used?

I did order the Valeo kit from DeLorean-go and it should be here in a few days. The work still has to wait.

[dn010]

My dust shield for the magnetic pickup was just hanging (on the exhaust) when I bought my car. I guess when the clutch was replaced they could not bolt it back up. So I just removed the plate and removed the diagnostic plug also.

I need to pull one axle anyway to do new boots. The other axle is new. So what is the alignment tool? How is it used?

I did order the Valeo kit from DeLorean-go and it should be here in a few days. The work still has to wait.

The alignment tool has splines that match the clutch disk, you put the clutch on the tool, the tool in the pilot bearing and then slide the pressure plate over it all and bolt it down. This holds the clutch in position so your input shaft goes right through it and into the pilot bearing without it being "off". Most of the time, the clutch kit comes with the tool but I see the one from DeLoreanGo does not!

[Flash66]

In the Valeo Kit, it doesn't. Either go to clutchtool.com and purchase #44 or I made a clutch tool with a 3/8" ratchet extension and wrapped it in 2 places with electrical tape the same size as the pilot bearing and disk spline. Worked perfectly.

[dn010]

Also, I hate to say it at this point, but you could have gotten your Valeo clutch kit (WITH Alignment tool) on Amazon, for $178. Search Valeo 52352501.

[Flash66]

Bought mine from rock auto, same part # and it didn't come included for 158.00

[PJ Grady Inc.]

The roll pins are inside the transmission, they hold the shift forks on to the shafts. There is a smaller roll pin installed inside the regular roll pin. This is just an extra preventative measure to ensure it does not back out. It is a fairly common practice in other manual transmissions.
The idea behind the added pin is for extra strength to prevent shearing. It is installed in the second gear shift fork locator position which comes under added stress when the car is driven with a hydraulic fluid leak.
Rob

[dn010]

Bought mine from rock auto, same part # and it didn't come included for 158.00

That is good to know, I was only going by the description. The past two I've ordered did come with the tool but that was a long time ago.

[Josh]

The idea behind the added pin is for extra strength to prevent shearing. It is installed in the second gear shift fork locator position which comes under added stress when the car is driven with a hydraulic fluid leak.
Rob

I stand corrected! Thanks Rob

[Bitsyncmaster]

Also, I hate to say it at this point, but you could have gotten your Valeo clutch kit (WITH Alignment tool) on Amazon, for $178. Search Valeo 52352501.

Now you tell me.:8ball:

I was getting some other parts anyway so did not even think to shop around.

[Flash66]

If you don't have one in your kit, the extension with electrical tape works like a charm. Also the #44 tool is only $10

[dn010]

I can also send you one to borrow as long as you can spend the $1.19 to send it back when you get around to it after being done. LOL

[Bitsyncmaster]

I can also send you one to borrow as long as you can spend the $1.19 to send it back when you get around to it after being done. LOL

That would be great. I'll let you know when I will be doing the work. It may have to wait till grandkids are on winter break.

[DMC-81]

If you don't have one in your kit, the extension with electrical tape works like a charm. Also the #44 tool is only $10

Definitely. Here is where I got mine:
http://www.clutchtools.com/index.php?productID=43344

They have a category for Delorean but the tool number is TBA. I called them and told them that their tool 44 was the right one when I ordered it. They must not have updated the website.

[Victor]

I have use a simple cap from a big felt marker, for alignment tool. Worked perfectly. I saw that on youtube.

I also add a tube of Lubrimoly to the transmission fluid. Shift so smoothly now. Incredible.

[SS Spoiler]

Just turn a metal / wood rod ti fit the
pilot bearing and the clutch disk....