In Defense of VIN Counters

[Citizen]

If anyone ever approaches me and asks for my vin I will assume it's just a crazy psycho who is obsessed with meaningless pursuits. I imagine Video Bob has a similar concern.

I suppose the “crazy psycho” comment was meant for me. No worries though, I am believing/hoping that was an exaggeration, and no one really believes I (and others) are psychos.

In response however, I would to point out the VIN counters actually provide a service of sort; in that collecting this information affords us the ability to know way more about these cars than we did before, form their births in Ireland, to their lives and deaths around the globe. This is interesting information for DeLorean specific car enthusiasts who are also history buffs. The information is free to those interested, and easily ignored by those who say it’s a “meaningless pursuit”. Here are some points of interest about the DeLorean automobile.

A. We know MUCH more about their ORIGINS, for example.


Over the years folks have thrown out production numbers from 6-10 thousand cars. But now you can accurately spread the true number at car shows and street-meets, etc., which is 8799.
Of those, 33% had automatic transmissions, 66% manual.
Of the total, 57% had gray interiors, 42% had black.
Of the total, 73% had grooved hoods.
Of the total, 29% had gas flapped hoods.


B. And We know MUCH more about WHERE-THEY-ARE-NOW. For example:


There are over 90 Back-To-The-Future builds world wide, with 68 being in the United States, 10 in the United Kingdom, and even 2 in Australia.
There are (or were) at least 92 painted cars.
There are at least 30 engine swaps, and another 33+ Eagle or Turbo engines, and another 56 Stage I, II, III. If you are considering an engine mod or swap, wouldn’t you want to know the VIN of some over 110 others who have blazed the trail ahead of you?
California wins the count prize hands-down, with over 1100 cars last reported there, more than twice the next closest state.
There are over 770 registered owners in the DeLorean Owners Directory (http://www.DeLoreanOwnersDirectory.net) (DOD), with active, verified email addresses, each who have voluntarily provided contact information for the benefit of other owners. My hat is off to these people, because any one of them may be the one that helps you one day, when you are stuck out on the road far away from home.


C. And, we know the specific VINs of:


At least 12 cars that have been signed by John DeLorean himself.
At least 88 cars that have more than 100k miles clocked.
At least 68 that are in museums around the world (thank you Dermot-Dangermouse )
5 gold cars, 7 electric and 33 Right-Hand-Drive cars.


D. Also, did you know?


The number one (highest sales) DeLorean Dealership was not in California? Nope, California can only boast having the 5th highest sales dealership in the United States. Guess which state has the #1 highest selling dealership?
The VIN (that we know of) is 4915, with a whopping 365k miles. Impressive to say the least!
The most research VIN is 16125 with some 1390 clicks, beating out pilots 19 and 20?
Approximately 772 owners are currently listed in the DOD, with active, verified (within the last 12 months) email addresses.


All the above information and more can be found HERE (http://www.citizenkidd.com/dmc/pages/vinview_totals.asp).

SO, if VIN counters didn’t count VINs, then VINs wouldn’t get counted, …uh, …um, …well all of the above would probably be unknown.

And finally, all of this is in fun (for me), so there is no offense taken or intended. I like dealing with data, and I have enjoyed working with the likes of Shannon, James, Sarah, Demot and many others who have contributed VIN information regarding DeLoreans. Hey, some people like to collect baseball cards, or like to watch birds. I like to count DeLoreans.

: )

Thomas

...

(Ref.)
In Search of VideoBob BTTF Build #22 (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?15625-In-Search-of-VideoBob-BTTF-Build-22&highlight=VideoBob)

[Shep]

Michael meant a spectator, right? Like, some dude walks up to my car and asks the VIN. If he doesn't know where the battery is, he ain't finding out is my rule of thumb. You need to know about DeLoreans to know about mine.

As for "crazy psycho", can we not make that a slur? Society's gone on long enough that the N word is just not okay at all, but if "crazy psycho" becomes offensive, I'm going to have to get all up in arms every time someone says "that's nuts!" as if I was personally insulted somehow. Fat people didn't complain when Marty McFly called everything heavy!

Brain has nothing to do with it!!!

[Michael]

Actually I was not referring to you at all. If memory serves, I was referring to those who keep track of every DeLorean out there, cyber stalking every owner and regurgitating anything that happens to appear on Instagram, FB, CL, etc. about any DeLorean even if it pops up in the most obscure darkest corners of the internet at 245am.

Now, what's your Social Security number?

[Shep]

even if it pops up in the most obscure darkest corners of the internet at 245am.Of all the times you could have picked dude. 2:45 AM here, last night, domestic dispute got so heated cops were called. Turned into a dumpster diving paradise. I passed on a full-size suitcase this morning because I have class :hihi:


Now, what's your Social Security number?7, why?

[Andrew]

I certainly appreciate the statistical info! Any count on how many carb and EFI conversions have been completed?

[Citizen]

...VIN info...

CORRECTIONS:


The actual production number is 8798.
VIN 4915 is the highest mileage car that we know of.

Sorry for the confusion.



Actually I was not referring to you at all....[SNIP]

Now, what's your Social Security number?

Thanks Michael.

BTW, my SSN is 3341.
...Oh wait, that's my VIN.


Thomas

...

[Citizen]

I certainly appreciate the statistical info! Any count on how many carb and EFI conversions have been completed?

Thanks!

Actually, we do keep Carb and EFI information, if owners feel so incline to reveal it. It's a bit harder to count, because it is kept in the notes part of the VIN database, and is not a specific counter item. The number for Carb and EFI could be derived (let me see what I can do), but we don't have any way of knowing of they have been completed (although this could be assumed).

I'll be back.

...

[Iznodmad]

I personally love the vin registry website and visit it often to reference different things. I appreciate the efforts that I've seen occur over the past 20 years to accumulate all the info. I wish all the vendors would willfully add the info they have to make it more complete. I wish others wouldn't try and "reinvent" the wheel and start this process all over again. Thanks Thomas for keeping up with all this stuff. However, I believe the car with the most miles would have to be the Hollers car with 800k miles or so? Also, what about the claim that Barrie Wills makes that the actual number is 9200 (IIRC)?

[Citizen]

I personally love the vin registry website and visit it often to reference different things. I appreciate the efforts that I've seen occur over the past 20 years to accumulate all the info. I wish all the vendors would willfully add the info they have to make it more complete. I wish others wouldn't try and "reinvent" the wheel and start this process all over again. Thanks Thomas for keeping up with all this stuff. However, I believe the car with the most miles would have to be the Hollers car with 800k miles or so? Also, what about the claim that Barrie Wills makes that the actual number is 9200 (IIRC)?

The Hollers car, isn't that the MJF foundation car)? If so, you are most certainly right, and I will make that correction. The 8798 is only the number we have are able to verify. If Barrie Wills' number is the true number, we'll go with that, but at the moment we don't know what the missing VINs are to add to our DB to bring the count up to the real number. I'd certainly welcome Mr Wills' help!

Thanks for the good words!

Thomas

...

[David T]

IMHO this is not to keep track of modified cars. That would include lowering, carbs, engine swaps, paint, etc. The notable cars should be tracked like early cars, the gold cars, celebrity cars, BTTF cars, that kind of thing. It would also be nice if we could track cars that had bad titles from fires, floods and crashes. This info is for everyone, just remember, you may own the car now but eventually someone else will too. You are only the steward of the car now during it's lifetime (hopefully longer than yours!).

[? ? ? ?]

I too have always enjoyed the vin registry site. The pursuit of the actual production number has always fascinated me. It's like a fun mystery to try and solve.


The 8798 is only the number we have are able to verify.
...

I always thought that the actual production number was 8987? (6700 81s, 999 10,XXX/15,XXX, 1000 11,XXX/16,XXX, 171 17,XXX, 105 20,XXX, and the 12 or so RHD ones)

[Shep]

CORRECTIONS:

The actual production number is 8798.Back up, even Nick Sutton doesn't know that one, he was there from start to finish and estimated higher, with the re-VINs at 83, you gotta cite an independent source for that number if you're going to get THAT specific.

Also the sheer number of 500 series cars that are a mystery of whether or not they ever existed at all says that's not a valid number. Where's 501?

[Citizen]

I certainly appreciate the statistical info! Any count on how many carb and EFI conversions have been completed?

I did a quick search of VIN notes and found the following:

Here are the VINs that have reported EFI conversions:

700 Turbo/EFI
1049 LS4 engine swap, EFI (MegaSquirt), Z7U intake
2329 EFI (MegaSquirt Fuel & spark control
2942 EFI
3307 Twin Turbo, EFI, numerous engine modifications
3416 3.0L odd-fire, EFI
3635 BAE Turbo
3662 Twin Turbo with EFI
4088 EFI
4502 2.8 even fire PRV, EFI
5003 EFI (MegaSquirt), even fire PRV
6147 EFI conversion
10920 EFI

Here are the VINs that have reported Carb conversions:

2607 Carb conversion
3968 Carbureted
5052 Carbureted (Peugeot 604 intake, dual Solex carbs)
5482 Carbureted
5835 Carbureted, "Boo"
16510 Carbureted




I always thought that the actual production number was 8987? (6700 81s, 999 10,XXX/15,XXX, 1000 11,XXX/16,XXX, 171 17,XXX, 105 20,XXX, and the 12 or so RHD ones)

Those comments written by Shannon are from some years ago. I know there has been at least one found (with a VIN plate photo as verification) that was not in Shannon's original count. Yes, we should update the comments section of the Registry information page accordingly.



Back up, even Nick Sutton doesn't know that one, he was there from start to finish and estimated higher, with the re-VINs at 83, you gotta cite an independent source for that number if you're going to get THAT specific.

Also the sheer number of 500 series cars that are a mystery of whether or not they ever existed at all says that's not a valid number. Where's 501?

Our 8798 number is lower because that's all we could verify. It is not set in stone. If anyone at any time can verify more actual VINs, I am happy to add them to our database. Nick Sutton is probably right that there are more, we just don't know about them yet (more precisely speaking, we don't know what the actual VIN is). We would LOVE to know the numbers of the missing cars, bring them on!

501 (http://www.citizenkidd.com/dmc/pages/vinview_disp.asp?start=501) is in the database.

Thomas

...

[Iznodmad]

I retract the 9200 stated before according to Barrie. It was 9,080. I'm still searching for his explaination of how he arrived at that number. Btw, if you want to update some cars, then my 5000 and 16128 both have PRV even fire efi twin turbo engines (from DPI) and 5000 also has a stainless frame (also DPI).

[Citizen]

Btw, if you want to update some cars, then my 5000 and 16128 both have PRV even fire efi twin turbo engines (from DPI) and 5000 also has a stainless frame (also DPI).

Great to know, updated.

Thanks

...

[lazabby]

It's about 9,000 cars manufactured give or take a few. There are fewere in our database due to skips in the VINs where we don't have any evidence of the car being made. For example we don't know if VIN 6700 was made because we don't have evidence yet but it probably was. Making some reasonable assumptions puts the count of cars made at around 9,000.

[Shep]

"8798 produced" becoming "our 8798 number" straight to "501 is in our database" -- hang on dude, get one story and stick with it because I have three by now. If it's your own registry number, great, but please quantify that correctly.

501 is now 500, as the leading theory goes, which is up at Crawford Auto Museum. I have seen it and it's in dire shape, museum owners simply do not care anymore, honestly the car needs a megaton of work and they wouldn't let DPI Josh fix it on his own dime (he tried to offer pro bono fixes and parts, they refused to even acknowledge it). That's why I mention 500 series. Do yourself a favor, PJ Grady UK's site, 500 chronology, amazing read.

Original 500 -- as per leading theory -- crashed into a wall, a quick VIN plate swap and original 500 was very likely shoved back into the line for repairs or, honestly, probably sat beside my own car for the same purpose -- state-side part-out (yes, my car was a parts car before they even sold any stateside. Which means my car's a hipster... grumble grumble gah *angst*)

I would also like to point out that 559's page is screwed up a bit the pics and data are off, mind sending me a PM or got an email I can send correct data to?

[Iznodmad]

I think we can *mostly* agree the number is right around 9000 cars. We will likely never know for sure. The 500/501 saga has been discussed in great detail in the past. The biggest problem with that theory is that 500 is a 5 speed car, 501 was an automatic. No way they switched the frames and transmission. 500 was not a total loss and was likely repaired and "kept for posterity", at the direction of higher level authorities. 501 has not been found to date. Most easy cars had some decals placed somewhere on the finerglass mid bodies. Talk those folks at CAM to let you use a snake-cam on 500 and find out for sure.

[opethmike]

501 is in my basement.

[Citizen]

I would also like to point out that 559's page is screwed up a bit the pics and data are off, mind sending me a PM or got an email I can send correct data to?

PM sent.

And to anyone else who finds errors, you can PM me here for corrections.

Also, for those who are not yet members of the DeLorean Owners Directory (http://www.DeloreanOwnersDirectory.net) (DOD), when you join, your confirmed entry automatically updates the location data in the Registry.

Thomas

...

[Shep]

Agreed on mostly accurate numbering. It's about 9,000 made, give or take a few hundred.

As for 501 being an automatic, that doesn't require a frame swap. Read more about the 500 series here, and note the gaps, they are due to zero information being known: https://www.pjgrady.co.uk/500-series-chronology

The guys at Crawford are quite overprotective to the point of decay. If we can't get them to agree to let us fix it for free (I have tried too, not just DPI Josh), I can't fathom how they would be willing to let us put in a snake cam that they surely feel could destroy their "investment".

Although let's be serious, the value has tragically plummeted on account of it not running anymore. They dolly it around inside, it does not appear in their annual "run 'every' car in the inventory" warm-ups, not to mention they stopped showing it years ago. Crawford hosted a "stainless cars of history" display 3-4 years ago at the Autorama and 500 was a no-show. I have pics of this event I will dig out if anyone's interested. Almost a diversion, but likely the exact time when they realized how far gone it was. $20,000 for a historic beast would be seriously pushing it. And that's sad.

[Iznodmad]

I think you may be interpreting the history incorrectly. There was a certain story that was circulated for a very long time that was more recently changed with the publication of a book of a former high ranking employee. 500 had superficial damage on the day/night before JZD was supposed to be inspecting "Job 1" as it was referred to by the inner circles. Rather than not have something for him to inspect, they simply substituted 501 as *the* car to go over with a fine toothed comb. That is why the term "swapped" is being used. I don't think the term swap is to be used in a sense of swapping VINs or parts from one car to another. This is the way is written by Barrie Wills who was there that day and appears in the historical pictures. It has been a while since I read his book and my memory of the details may be fuzzy. Regardless, it is believed that 501 was one of many early cars to be scrapped. Also, I've never personally swapped a transmission either way (auto to manual or manual to auto), but the hole in the frame where the gear selectors go through are different. There are apparently very few owners that give a crap about any of this stuff, but I find it fascinating. Also sad that 500 is decaying. I saw it in the year 2000, which is also the one and only time I got to meet JZD and get his autograph.

[Shep]

I apparently wiped out the "typo explains the transmission mistake" (remember 559's officially a manual, but has never been), but more than anything my info is outdated. I didn't even know Barrie had a book out! Nick Sutton's book release was the last book I knew came out.

That does explain the unique things only 500 has. Blackout HVAC being one of them, I have always questioned how a last-minute swap would have that result.

500 is still around, it may be worth asking if DPI Josh can make the offer again. He was still McFly Motorsports when that conversation happened (showing my age here!!!) and I'm sure the name led to it not being taken seriously.

[Iznodmad]

The black out Hvac panel shows up on some pilot cars as well, maybe even a few more really early 500 series cars. That explains why the lights behind are always lit, all the way through the production run. It was decided that it was difficult to see when the sun was shining in and this started the run of at least 6 different versions of the decal. All later versions are able to be seen without being illuminated from behind.

[? ? ? ?]

Those comments written by Shannon are from some years ago. I know there has been at least one found (with a VIN plate photo as verification) that was not in Shannon's original count. Yes, we should update the comments section of the Registry information page accordingly.


That'd be great if you guys could update that, would love to know what new information has been found in the last few year.

[David T]

As sad as it is to hear they are letting the car get run-down, as long as it is kept inside it will never get so bad as to not be restorable. The only thing that could prevent that is the unavailability of certain parts. That may already have occurred and the way around that is to just make custom parts for anything that is missing and unique to the car. Be happy the car is still around and available to the public at all. Look how they took care of the BTTF "hero" car till they did something about it.

[Shep]

Completely agree. It's not too far gone, it will never get that bad. But I truly think they would be far more receptive to the idea now that they realize it doesn't comfortably run anymore. Last I saw it the headliners were sagging also. It doesn't take much to convince them we're onto something, and it's been years since anyone last offered.

I do think if we ask now, they'd at least be convincable. Before they just flat out found it offensive to ask. Given the BTTF resto (thanks for reminding me on that one), I think it won't take much for them to let us.

If we can manage to get an original DMC employee to show up to talk about 500, help out, maybe be there for candid pics, I don't think it would be hard at all to have them let us do it. Barrie might provide a lot of insight as he's there in original pics of 500's finishing touches too (as Darren mentioned), and that kind of reunion is sure to get them to hold onto the car for a very long time and be far more open to us tuning it up every now and then.

I mean hey, we're here to preserve history here, that's it.

[lazabby]

Back in 2010 I wrote a paper on the production of Deloreans. At that time I came up with 8,975 cars. What I wrote can be found at this link:
http://www.citizenkidd.com/dmc/pages/vin.asp
The article probably needs to be updated due to additional information uncovered since it was written but it should be fairly accurate.

Thomas Kidd has pulled together a lot of great statistical information that is posted at that website.

[SamHill]

Interest in the details of individual cars and numbers relating to the marque has spawned a few published books and websites in the last handful of years. There are yet mysteries to be untangled. Just the other day I was messaged about claims about former celebrity owned car -- which are not substantiated. Other times people have sold cars unaware of a direct connection with JZD and factory employees. Efforts have gone into uncovering the story behind the Saudi cars now floating around Europe. Reasons abound.

[SpudMurphy]

Did somebody mention Saudi cars? Now that's an interesting story :)

If you want to see some Dubai sand go here.

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?15782-Side-Mirror-repair-is-yours-floppy-(now-with-pictures)&p=226260#post226260

[Shep]

Did somebody mention Saudi cars? Now that's an interesting story :)

If you want to see some Dubai sand go here.

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?15782-Side-Mirror-repair-is-yours-floppy-(now-with-pictures)&p=226260#post226260

Dude, really? We don't "plug" our own stuff here. I'm all for linking relevant information but that's about as giant of a stretch as you can get, don't do that.

[Michael]

Dude, really? We don't "plug" our own stuff here. I'm all for linking relevant information but that's about as giant of a stretch as you can get, don't do that.

Your authority to displine other's as to what they can or can not post is pretty much below zero. Don't be surprised at your "rules" being ignored.

[Shep]

Your authority:confused0:

[louielouie2000]

501 is now 500, as the leading theory goes, which is up at Crawford Auto Museum. I have seen it and it's in dire shape, museum owners simply do not care anymore, honestly the car needs a megaton of work and they wouldn't let DPI Josh fix it on his own dime (he tried to offer pro bono fixes and parts, they refused to even acknowledge it).

How is the car deteriorating? Also, if you have any pictures of the car, I'd love to see them. I've only ever really seen distance shots of this car- never anything up close or interior related.

[Shep]

How is the car deteriorating? Also, if you have any pictures of the car, I'd love to see them. I've only ever really seen distance shots of this car- never anything up close or interior related.I'll try to dig for pics if anyone still wants the autorama one I mentioned, I have a cloud for family pics and might be able to find it.

"Deteriorating" -- I may another set of outdated info here, I looked around and found a guy who took pics this past December (2016), from the date it was 2016-12-28. One 360 shot and this nice rear 3/4 shot.

Thank you Joe Sterne for the shots inside and the 360 also (note it's grouped with the other stainless cars as it usually is):

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=53953&d=1507846098
[source (https://goo.gl/maps/51J2xvdB3312)]

But there are some things they just don't have the capacity to fix without assistance. We wouldn't either until we knew what we're dealing with. Early VIN stuff like the blackout panel, honestly I'd question mark the binnacle and seats given I've caught wind of "first 50-100 cars had ____" and after years of hunting myself we just need a donor to make a replica first, there's no way to donate nor even obtain outright.

Looks like they are getting assistance from someone. I for one am glad to be wrong, there was at least a two-year stretch where it just sat on the sidelines while nobody seemed to notice nor know where it was. Here we are and it's looking great :)


One oddball I'm seeing, but I will ask vaguely to make sure I'm not seeing things. Does anyone notice anything "off" about the rear driver's side? Lighting maybe?

EDIT:
Zoomed in on the source, huh, I wasn't seeing things. Wonder if this was like that before or not:

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=53958&d=1507846985

[louielouie2000]

I saw this on Instagram last night... appears to be VIN 500 out in the sunlight!

53985

I guess I'm one of those obsessive DeLorean history enthusiasts... I'd love to know the more complete story of this particular car. How the Crawford came about the car, how long they've owned it, etc.

[Shep]

I saw this on Instagram last night... appears to be VIN 500 out in the sunlight!

53985

I guess I'm one of those obsessive DeLorean history enthusiasts... I'd love to know the more complete story of this particular car. How the Crawford came about the car, how long they've owned it, etc.Last night? Damn it was gloomy as hell outside, I'm kinda surprised they didn't put an awning over it at least. It was sprinkling in some parts too. Good lighting for pics though!

They've had 500 a loooooooong time, since I was still playing in ballpits. Over two decades easy -- I first saw it when I was probably five, they already had it years before that, I'm 27 now. I've grown up with it not too far away. I'm sure that played a role in my own ownership.

As for "how", I'm 100% speculating here, this has no basis in anything beyond just how I imagine it playing out. But, my leading theory is that after having the other three stainless prototypes, I'm sure it was easy to convince a buyer to let them have it. Never having to worry about it being flipped, or being abused, hell they had three unique cars and it would be part of a collection, that's quite timeless in and of itself. And for the first DeLorean ever made, what better way to preserve it than to put it alongside other "first of its kind" vehicles?

I will note real quick in the pic you posted that there is no DMC emblem on the grille, nor holes to mount it. Also note the smooth-looking side mirrors (which I swear to god I hate with a passion, those things are even worse than keeping a black car spotless, the textured ones are far better). The first 50-100 cars especially often had the "optional" stuff omitted to get them out the door, or had a few small-quantity runs of parts that didn't work out and were added because initial excitement was high and no one would care if their mirrors looked like hell after a couple days. I will refer also to my own door sill VIN plate as another example of "optional not-attached parts":

54005

Or lack thereof. I've heard from a couple people that they added one at a later date, I haven't yet confirmed nor denied this, but what I can confirm is that if 500 has one, it is a reproduction. The windshield one is still there, but painted black.


Also note the front fascia painted to match the stainless. Most owners just assume the wheels started dark and then matched stainless and that's it. In reality though, the fascias had the opposite treatment. It was easier to color match when it wasn't literally right next to the part you're trying to color match, so they made the fascias darker and the wheels lighter by simply swapping colors.


EDIT: I have the timeline backwards, they didn't just swap like I'm thinking, everything was dark, then they made the wheels light, then they liked that so they tried to match the fascias to be light too and the company went under. I think. I don't know my later cars well, my bad!!! Also need to refer to multiple pics before I get carried away, literally two posts up shows that's clearly not true

(Pretty much all of this knowledge by the way was gathered from a few sources that are very familiar with the early cars, more so than I can ever hope to be. Tony Swann, Rich W, Nick Sutton, brainfarting on another guy, him too though, DMCSeller documents, etc.)

[DMC-81]

This discussion on VIN 500 is fascinating! Maybe it should be moved to its own thread?




Also need to refer to multiple pics before I get carried away, literally two posts up shows that's clearly not true


Shep, I also noticed the shade of the front fascia outside. I was wondering if the lighter shade was because of the bright sunlight. My early car's fascias were re-painted with the correct oil based paint code and sheen, and they seem to match the inside picture of rear fascia. To help with the comparison, here is a picture of mine outside on an overcast day:

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=47390&d=1479172701

Do you have a picture of the front of the car inside the museum to compare it to? (Notwithstanding that different lighting conditions and fresh paint vs original will make them vary a bit.)

[Shep]

I'm going to dig around, if I have any, they're at least 5 years old, but it it worth checking for my own sanity

[Shep]

Wow, it was on display in December! Might even still be, not sure yet, check out these pics! Clearly it's in immaculate shape though, doors staying open on their own is a far cry from where I last saw it.

https://plus.google.com/photos/photo/115437262187342139732/6500647067539211938
https://plus.google.com/photos/photo/101913706022753994849/6497317792126298482
https://plus.google.com/photos/photo/100174563402365237865/6499973442654261314
https://plus.google.com/photos/photo/101913706022753994849/6497317791607708834
https://plus.google.com/photos/photo/101913706022753994849/6497317790925551458
https://plus.google.com/photos/photo/116882988040655942001/6504046393756538770

First time I've ever seen cave paintings on the doors like that though! WR30_ (1? 7?) on the passenger door from the front, passenger is faded and not too well shown in the pics I found. Man I need to swing up there and start asking about it, I am floored at how "out there" VIN 500 is! Weather is blistering cold though, flu season too, just hoping all goes well and I'm able to make it while it's still on display (and hoping it still is for that matter!!!)

[JETS 81 DMC]

Wow, it was on display in December! Might even still be, not sure yet, check out these pics! Clearly it's in immaculate shape though, doors staying open on their own is a far cry from where I last saw it.

https://plus.google.com/photos/photo/115437262187342139732/6500647067539211938
https://plus.google.com/photos/photo/101913706022753994849/6497317792126298482
https://plus.google.com/photos/photo/100174563402365237865/6499973442654261314
https://plus.google.com/photos/photo/101913706022753994849/6497317791607708834
https://plus.google.com/photos/photo/101913706022753994849/6497317790925551458
https://plus.google.com/photos/photo/116882988040655942001/6504046393756538770

First time I've ever seen cave paintings on the doors like that though! WR30_ (1? 7?) on the passenger door from the front, passenger is faded and not too well shown in the pics I found. Man I need to swing up there and start asking about it, I am floored at how "out there" VIN 500 is! Weather is blistering cold though, flu season too, just hoping all goes well and I'm able to make it while it's still on display (and hoping it still is for that matter!!!)


Noticed that "DMC" is missing from the front grill.
The early prototypes had the logo on the grill. Wonder why it is not there on this one?

[Shep]

Noticed that "DMC" is missing from the front grill.
The early prototypes had the logo on the grill. Wonder why it is not there on this one?Not sure what prototypes you've seen, here's the most comprehensive list I know of:
https://www.pjgrady.co.uk/pilot-chronology
Most prototypes didn't have the logo. In fact, the only ones I've seen with it were restored incorrectly, likely by someone that couldn't source the correct part (like my continual "OEM leather binnacle" search, not a one has come up for sale in six years and I'm having to replicate one from a close VIN)

Some of the earliest 500 series didn't have the logo either:
https://www.pjgrady.co.uk/500-series-chronology

Note that "early" doesn't mean "low number". 514 for example (50,000 mile endurance car) pre-dates 513 by quite a bit, but 514 is one of the few without said logo. As for why, same reason any "early" part made its way onto later cars -- you have the parts, gotta phase them out somehow, why not use them up?

Pretty sure the logo-less grilles were meant for prototypes only. I suspect they may have been playing around with the logo placements given one of the pilots had no "De Lorean" in the rear bumper. That to me says they hadn't decided anything final when the parts were made.

[JETS 81 DMC]

Not sure what prototypes you've seen, here's the most comprehensive list I know of:
https://www.pjgrady.co.uk/pilot-chronology
Most prototypes didn't have the logo. In fact, the only ones I've seen with it were restored incorrectly, likely by someone that couldn't source the correct part (like my continual "OEM leather binnacle" search, not a one has come up for sale in six years and I'm having to replicate one from a close VIN)

Some of the earliest 500 series didn't have the logo either:
https://www.pjgrady.co.uk/500-series-chronology

Note that "early" doesn't mean "low number". 514 for example (50,000 mile endurance car) pre-dates 513 by quite a bit, but 514 is one of the few without said logo. As for why, same reason any "early" part made its way onto later cars -- you have the parts, gotta phase them out somehow, why not use them up?

Pretty sure the logo-less grilles were meant for prototypes only. I suspect they may have been playing around with the logo placements given one of the pilots had no "De Lorean" in the rear bumper. That to me says they hadn't decided anything final when the parts were made.


Thanks for the good info and the chronology link which I have not seen before.
That is a very interesting link. The early prototype that came to my mind is the one on display at AACA Museum until April 30, 2018. This prototype is from 1976 and has the logo on the front grill.
Here is the link to the Delorean at AACA:
http://www.aacamuseum.org/delorean-prototype/

[Shep]

Ah! Yes, well, helps when it's one of the first two "publicity" vehicles made and driven in the 70's -- that's Proto 1, owned currently by DMC Florida (currently called "Gulf Coast Motor Works"). Proto 2 rolled off an embankment and was totalled early on. Pilots aren't held to the same standard and pretty much anything goes it seems. Some of the pilots were 95% re-used, pulling parts from recent pilots and only changing minor things. Proto 1 and Proto 2 on the other hand were for press releases and were meant to emphasize what the final car could look like when it comes out, so they were far more finished in that regard by default. After all, what car in modern memory doesn't identify itself on the front somehow?

[DMC-81]

Ah! Yes, well, helps when it's one of the first two "publicity" vehicles made and driven in the 70's -- that's Proto 1, owned currently by DMC Florida (currently called "Gulf Coast Motor Works"). Proto 2 rolled off an embankment and was totalled early on. Pilots aren't held to the same standard and pretty much anything goes it seems. Some of the pilots were 95% re-used, pulling parts from recent pilots and only changing minor things. Proto 1 and Proto 2 on the other hand were for press releases and were meant to emphasize what the final car could look like when it comes out, so they were far more finished in that regard by default. After all, what car in modern memory doesn't identify itself on the front somehow?

I just wanted to clarify/correct the bolded statement. DMC Florida, ( DMCFL ), the authorized franchise location of DMC moved to Orlando last March and has no affiliation with "Gulf Coast Motor Works" or "Gulf Coast DeLoreans" which is still in Bonita Springs. As for Proto 1 the last I heard it was still owned by GCMW but it is currently on display in Pennsylvania.

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?14665-Announcement-about-DMC-Florida-January-10-2017

[Shep]

I just wanted to clarify/correct the bolded statement. DMC Florida, ( DMCFL ), the authorized franchise location of DMC moved to Orlando last March and has no affiliation with "Gulf Coast Motor Works" or "Gulf Coast DeLoreans" which is still in Bonita Springs. As for Proto 1 the last I heard it was still owned by GCMW but it is currently on display in Pennsylvania.

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?14665-Announcement-about-DMC-Florida-January-10-2017 Learned something new today, thanks! :)

[ssdelorean]

snip

They've had 500 a loooooooong time, since I was still playing in ballpits. Over two decades easy -- I first saw it when I was probably five, they already had it years before that, I'm 27 now. I've grown up with it not too far away. I'm sure that played a role in my own ownership.

snip


Back in the late 90's (probably the time Shep was at McDonald's in a ball pit) and a couple times in the early 2000's, the DeLorean Club of Ohio had a few events at the Crawford. A few of our founding club members have also been members of the Crawford for years. Just like Shep and Josh B., our efforts to offer free cleaning and maintenance to their DeLorean has been met with resistance. It always seemed like they had something against the DeLorean but not the other stainless cars as they were always in top notch condition.

I am glad to see the car has finally received the much needed attention. Maybe it's most recent display is the reason? Also very surprised that it does not have any ropes to discourage "jumpers" from getting in it. All the time in the past it has been kept at a distance behind ropes.

[Shep]

I'm offering zero promises, but I do want to try and get up there if I reasonably can. Weather's been brutal and cold, and I would have to venture solo most likely, or maybe with my Dad if he can score a day off, but if I can see it while it's still on display, I will promise a treasure trove of pics. On a legitimate camera also, not just a crappy smartphone lens (try zooming on one).

[Gfrank]

"8798 produced" becoming "our 8798 number" straight to "501 is in our database" -- hang on dude, get one story and stick with it because I have three by now. If it's your own registry number, great, but please quantify that correctly.

501 is now 500, as the leading theory goes, which is up at Crawford Auto Museum. I have seen it and it's in dire shape, museum owners simply do not care anymore, honestly the car needs a megaton of work and they wouldn't let DPI Josh fix it on his own dime (he tried to offer pro bono fixes and parts, they refused to even acknowledge it). That's why I mention 500 series. Do yourself a favor, PJ Grady UK's site, 500 chronology, amazing read.

Original 500 -- as per leading theory -- crashed into a wall, a quick VIN plate swap and original 500 was very likely shoved back into the line for repairs or, honestly, probably sat beside my own car for the same purpose -- state-side part-out (yes, my car was a parts car before they even sold any stateside. Which means my car's a hipster... grumble grumble gah *angst*)o?


Likely beating a dead horse at this point, but just seeing this thread. That’s just story’s. No vin plates got swapped. 501 the auto car just took 500’s place for some of the photo/video etc

[Shep]

Likely beating a dead horse at this point, but just seeing this thread. That’s just story’s. No vin plates got swapped. 501 the auto car just took 500’s place for some of the photo/video etcVery dead horse and it was already addressed when that was posted as well. Barrie Willis (sp?) gave insight I hadn't heard when I posted that saying they gave 501 to JZD for close scrutiny and pushed 500 out the door. This was also very easy as the only spot the VIN was located was under the windshield painted black (if VIN 500 has a door sill plate, it was added later).

As for swapping tranny types for pics, this is a new one to me, and I would urge caution before believing that blindly. Firstly, that's a glaringly obvious change and also shortchanges DMC publicizing a 3-speed automatic sports car (which generally were stick back then -- "more in tune with your car" as the saying goes). The stigma alone is reason enough to push a different manual out the door vs. an automatic, even if automatic does actually get the advertised 18 MPG from my experience.

Secondly, I have not seen nor heard of any automatic cars pictured in "first DeLorean produced" literature. Media frenzies were a thing even then, and I can't fathom the car would be out of their sight until everyone was done taking pics. I think that's the ultimate nail in that coffin. Modern phrasing is "pics or it didn't happen", well, the entire "first DeLorean made" event was a heavily documented success story, so it's hard to fathom that they didn't see the doors up and a clear shot of the shifter handle (which just to note is bulkier and more 90's-like on earlier VIN's).

While there was a healthy 50/50 mix of automatics and manuals at the start of production (mine's an automatic), DMC made a large effort advertising it as an upcoming sports car. Automatic had a way to go before it could truly compete with manual, even now we've only barely gotten there with the latest Dodge Challenger Hellcats being slightly faster automatic than manual. Back in the 80's, the shift computers were pretty rudimentary and the automatic transmissions themselves were more of a work in progress to accommodate the slower shift computers. Shifting was slow, clunky, and unintuitive at times. It doesn't feel as natural as modern automatics, and only having three speeds to work with, I have a hard time believing they wanted to advertise an automatic car to publications that were read mostly by stickshift car guys and a few news stories you'd see on TV briefly or read in a newspaper for a morning.

Especially when guys like me can't drive stick but still wanted one! :)

[Gfrank]

They didn’t advertise it as a automatic. As far as everyone was concerned it was vin 500 rolling off the line. I’m also not speculating as I just had a conversation with Barrie about this. Granted it’s been some years sense, but I still take his word. 500- manual 501-auto. Which makes sense testing both down the line

[Shep]

VIN 500 is still on display and will be this Saturday, my Dad and I are still planning to go. Here's another link with a few pics, this time from the museum curators:

https://www.wrhs.org/cleveland-starts-here/

Seems like it's tied into the 150th anniversary of the Western Reserve Historical Society somehow. I can only speculate the reason for now, I will be sure to take a picture of the plaque saying what role it played that's bound to be somewhere. That also explains why it had such a lengthy restoration prior to the "reveal", 150 is a nice round number and they clearly planned ahead of time.

JZD was born in Detroit, and beyond the DeLorean-Cadillac dealership many older-than-myself people remember (born in 90) there's not much specific to Cleveland. Not that anyone's complaining though!

That said, there are still some DeLorean family members around Cleveland, I won't get into specifics without knowing how much attention they want. The one I see most frequently has license plate of "I AM DMC" though...

[Shep]

Guess that DeLorean-Cadillac dealership was family-owned! That's what the sign said. Pics coming ASAP, I'm grabbing them onto my laptop, sorting through them, posting them on Imgur this time (most of my older pictures, while still existing, are no longer at the original links, and I want to avoid that here -- plus Imgur hosts them at full resolution, which is amazing for a free service with zero bandwidth restrictions). I will start a new thread when I have the pics uploaded to Imgur.

Few interesting notes:
- First thing you see when you walk in. Like, you walk in, it's right there. I think you can technically grab a few pics before you need to pay.
- Leather binnacle, vinyl steering wheel -- this is correct, and both are in great shape
- No dash pics (too dark, no flash allowed, can't tell mileage unfortunately but I wanted to badly!!!)
- Blackout HVAC panel, although some pics might have shown the temperature control as red/blue (it was really blackout from human eyes)
- Windshield VIN plate was incorrectly cleaned off, there is supposed to be black paint on it like there is on mine (later ones aren't painted)
- Door sill VIN plate, this should not exist at all -- my Dad's iPhone was the winner at avoiding a blurry shot, but it was a bit of a reach!
- Rear bumper "DeLorean" logo was outlined in gray paint. Don't know who thought that was right.
- Despite major (?) restoration work, they picked the shittiest left rear side marker lens that had scuff marks and what looked like paint or serious dirt on it.
- Also not terribly sure if the undercarriage is faring well, I got a shot of the passenger side fiberglass and it was about 90%, there were some things that said "this might need work" but other things that didn't, such as:
- PRISTINE Goodyear NCT's! Looked like original rubber to me! I think I saw the little stubs coming out where they inject the rubber even. Brand new. Worth a pretty penny and quite the lookers!
- Door latches were "slots", I took some close-ups as there was writing around each one, which was interesting (the slots I knew about from my own car though)
- They had free magnets with two shots of VIN 500 on them, which was amazing, except I kinda wished I could pay for those so I could buy like a thousand and not feel bad when I give them away for free at the next DCS. Now I only have four of them out of the stack of eight, one of which I will give to DPI and three kept for myself. I took a pic of it though for posterity.

Again, image megadump and Imgur link coming soon, I will link to the new thread as soon as that's done! It's really worth the visit, but I could tell some of the loaner cars there were just cars that had only moderate historical significance but wild popularity and thus easy "hey can I park this here in the winter?" "hell yeah!" kind of reasoning to be there.

[Shep]

Finally finished (phew! busy guy these days). New thread:

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?16172-VIN-500-Imgur-Megadump