Engine Not this $#!* again! (Coolant leak at rear of engine) [Archive] - DMCTalk Forum

DaraSue

11-21-2017, 01:53 PM

So the other night I'm pulling into the garage after work and I see a puddle of antifreeze near where the front of the car is when it's parked. (I noticed this as I was coming in, so I'm not sure when the leak actually occurred.) I wipe it up and the next morning there doesn't appear to be substantial new leakage, but maybe a few more drips so I put the pressure tester on.

It immediately gets worse from here.

I pumped the tester to about 10-11 PSI and then there's a pretty good stream of liquid coming down the back of the engine. I can't tell exactly where it's coming from but it looks like there are streams running down either side of the lower pulley, and antifreeze pooling on the flat part between the pulleys.

54640

The big hoses aren't noticeably wet by the clamps and the weeper hole under the water pump feels dry, too. I tried tightening the hose clamps and used the tester again this morning (only up to about 7 this time) and it still leaks.

The weird thing is, I checked where I'd parked the last couple days at work and didn't see any antifreeze on the ground there, either. So it's like the radiator leaked one time in my garage and then I broke something using the tester.

Has anybody else had this happen and not had to take the intake manifold off to fix it?

(I never did manage to replicate the leak from the front. I tightened the clamp on the driver's side of the radiator, though.)

dn010

11-21-2017, 01:56 PM

DaraSue

11-21-2017, 02:14 PM

My guess would be a leak that has filled up your "valley" and it's running down the timing cover. If you can't find any of the main, large & accessible hoses hoses leaking then it looks like you'll be removing the intake manifold to inspect the hoses on either side of the water pump and the ones at the back of the pump.

Arrrgh, that's what I was afraid of.

I found this guide: http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=48301&d=1484494853

Are the copper washers for the fuel lines something I need to order from DMC or is there an off-the-shelf replacement?

dn010

11-21-2017, 02:27 PM

Actually, while that appears to be a very thorough write-up, you don't actually need to remove all the lines from the fuel distributor (FD) or the FD from the car. You can unbolt the fuel distributor from the mixture control unit using the three flat head screws and just the one fuel line on the top center of the FD needs to be removed (I can't recall where it goes since I don't have K-Jet anymore) so that you can access the third screw that holds the FD in place. When you're lifting it off the control unit, be careful not to drop the plunger (you'll dump a lot of fuel and risk injuring the plunger). You can slide your hand under and hold the plunger in and once you clear the FD from the control unit, wrap something around it so the plunger stays in the FD. I used to tie wrap around the whole FD so that the plunger stays in and then tie wrap the FD to the bar on the back wall so it stayed out of the way. You'll also need to unbolt the cold start valve using the two hex bolts so that you can keep that line attached as well.

If you do choose to make things more complicated by removing every line on the FD, you can get the copper washers from a parts house. Since this is your first attempt at this, take pictures along the way of how the vacuum lines attach, and how the connectors are connected so you have something to go back and look at should you forget. Otherwise, post here and we'll walk you through.

EDIT: You should also be able to peek around with a flashlight to verify if indeed your VOD has been filled with coolant. Either that, or run a long screwdriver down a gap and see if it comes up with coolant on it.

DaraSue

11-21-2017, 03:32 PM

I just tried sticking a Q-tip on a stick down behind the water pump and it came back wet so I guess that's where the problem is. If I have time tonight I might try to get started just in case there's anything I need to go buy tomorrow.

Chris 16409

11-21-2017, 05:04 PM

You should be able to lift the mixture control unit out of the way enough to remove the intake manifold. That way you don't have to disturb any of the fuel lines. Maybe the leak is coming from the two hoses coming off the back of the water pump? I'd recommend Silicone hoses for the back of the pump. Once you tighten them down, they don't require additional adjustment unlike conventional rubber hoses may require.

dn010

11-21-2017, 05:14 PM

While a hose is the likely culprit, other causes could be a pinhole from rust in the water return line or, like what happened to me once, a cracked flange on the side of the head that you clamp the water pump hose onto!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

AugustneverEnds

11-21-2017, 06:25 PM

I dealt with a leak that looks like yours for close to a year. It would drip when the engine was cold and dissipate when everything warmed up. I replaced the hoses with silicone, tightened the clamps several times and still had a leak. Turned out to be the gasket between the water pump and its back plate, and the back plate had a few gouges that prevented a perfect seal. I bought a new back plate from DeLorean Europe and cut my own gasket out of cork type material and have been dry for over a year now.

DaraSue

11-21-2017, 07:54 PM

David T

11-21-2017, 09:11 PM

Well, I got as far as trying to take the W pipe off but it won't come loose (all 5 bolts are out). Any ideas?

(I realize "put it back together and take it to somebody who at least theoretically knows what they're doing" is probably the best one but everybody's going to be closed for the holiday. Arrrgh!)

Another potential issue: when I was taking the idle speed motor off, the pipe it was attached to on the back side was really loose and it just slid out. It looks like it has some electrical tape wrapped around the long end. Is this normal? I'm not 100% sure where it actually came out of so I hope I can get it back in.54644

If you removed all of the bolts just tap it and it should come loose. Tape on the pipe is not supposed to be there, someone tried to seal the pipe and did not know there is supposed to be an "O" ring that seals the pipe in the mixture unit. Often when you disassemble things you find all kinds of unusual things that have been done. Part of a job like this is to undo all of the stuff done incorrectly. Once you get the intake manifold off, pressurize the cooling system and the source of the leak should be obvious. In any case you will be doing the whole job anyway. Call your favorite vendor and order the "Master Water Pump kit". It should include all of the seals, gaskets, hoses, belts, and water pump to replace everything.

DaraSue

11-22-2017, 01:27 AM

Well, I never did get that [expletive deleted] W-pipe loose, and IDK WTF I'm going to do because it has the wire that goes to the A/C compressor threaded through it and I don't see any easy way to disconnect it. :swear1: But I was able to tilt it up enough to get a good look inside the VOD and holy antifreeze leak, Batman!

This is at the firewall end of the engine: 54647

I took a few more but they didn't turn out. But basically the whole valley was full of it. I shop-vacced up as much as I could and then pumped the pressure tester to about 7 and it was definitely dripping from the fat hose behind the water pump. Is it supposed to be this bulgy?

54648

It looked like maybe it was a little wet at the that t-junction at the firewall end of the engine (the one with the line coming off the forward end of the coolant bottle), too, but not as obviously drippy as the fat hose.

Also I lost a washer off the fuel lines and now I'm paranoid that it ended up in one of the cylinders. If I stuck the nozzle of my Dyson vac on the cylinder opening, would it hurt anything?

FABombjoy

11-22-2017, 10:16 AM

Also I lost a washer off the fuel lines and now I'm paranoid that it ended up in one of the cylinders. If I stuck the nozzle of my Dyson vac on the cylinder opening, would it hurt anything?
No, but you'll almost certainly not be able to get it out that way :(

Might be worth investing in a $10 USB borescope from ebay. Many of those cameras will come with a little hook that you can use to grab the washer. Or you can put some 2-sided tape or something sticky to find and then retrieve the washer.

While you're at this I would consider replacing the pipe of agony with a 1/2 NPT barbed hose fitting. Later implementations of our engine had a similar modification. It's such a poor design given the sensitivity of K-jet to vacuum leaks. If not, you can assemble the entire idle system on the bench which will make it easier.

Rich

11-22-2017, 01:41 PM

Well, I never did get that [expletive deleted] W-pipe loose...I was able to tilt it up enough to get a good look inside the VOD and holy antifreeze leak, Batman!

I took a few more but they didn't turn out. But basically the whole valley was full of it. I shop-vacced up as much as I could and then pumped the pressure tester to about 7 and it was definitely dripping from the fat hose behind the water pump. Is it supposed to be this bulgy?

It looked like maybe it was a little wet at the that t-junction at the firewall end of the engine (the one with the line coming off the forward end of the coolant bottle), too, but not as obviously drippy as the fat hose.

Also I lost a washer off the fuel lines and now I'm paranoid that it ended up in one of the cylinders. If I stuck the nozzle of my Dyson vac on the cylinder opening, would it hurt anything?

Well, you made some good progress on this.

No, that hose btwn the WP and the Y-pipe should not be that bulgy but bulgy isn't always the same as leaky. If you are into the VOD any hoses you see are candidates for replacement unless you know they are OK. And be sure whoever sells you the hose sells you the right clamps or use the (still looking good) ones that are on that hose.

Next point is about the T fitting, the one by the firewall you say might be leaky. You could have loose clamps, bad hoses or a cracked/leaky tee. Tend to that whether it fills the VOD or not.

Don't worry about the fuel line washer til you get the VOD opened up - you may find it sitting in the valley. If you do want to vacuum the intake ports just be sure your vacuum snorkel isn't going to crack or somehow drop any debris in there. Otherwise no harm in trying it. I would've suggested a magnet to fish for it but those aren't steel washers...

The borescope suggestion is good. No comment on price vs performance of those.

Finally, there was a note about the Pipe of Agony - in case the term is new to you it's the bent pipe attached to the idle motor you pulled.

DaraSue

11-22-2017, 08:53 PM

Made some progress today (hopefully).

I had the bright idea to try setting a plywood plank across the left side of the bay with another piece of wood under it and set the manifold on that since I couldn't get it out, but in the process of trying to move it around, the A/C wire that was looped through the W pipe came apart at this black cylindrical thing in the middle. Hopefully it was supposed to come apart and will go back together again with a minimum of aggravation. If not, well, at least it's winter. :banghead:

Once I got the valley accessible I tried to clean out all the antifreeze. (Is there an easier way to do this than shop vac + paper towels? I feel like I'm never going to stand up straight again...)

In the process I found the missing washer. Or at least I found a washer in a cranny where the one I lost could plausibly have fallen. It's quite a bit dingier than the rest of the small ones, though. Could that happen just from sitting overnight in a pool of coolant or do I still need to go sounding in the cylinders?

I tightened the clamps on the hoses behind the water pump. They only had about 20 in-lbs, if that. 40-ish is iwhat I want for the big ones, right? After tightening them I pumped it back to and it held while I went out to Harbor Freight so when I got home I went up to the 9-11 mark. About 20 mins later it was still holding so maybe if it's still good later I'll pump it up to 13 before I go to bed and if it's still good in the morning I'll think about putting it back together. The hoses feel solid and they should have all been replaced last year when I had the engine overhaul.

I got some copper washers at O'Reilly and the big ones look OK but the small ones, the hole in the center looks the same size but the actual circle part is wider, is that going to be OK or do I need to find ones that are an exact match?

54664 (Pardon my grimy fingernails)

I also got a set of generic o-rings. Will one of those be OK for the Pipe of Agony? I can't find a specific one for it on DMCH.

dn010

11-22-2017, 09:04 PM

DaraSue

11-22-2017, 11:27 PM

I don’t have a book in front of me nor do I remember the recommended pressure of the cooling system but you should be able to go a few lbs PAST the recommended pressure to test. If it is 14 then you should be able to hold 16.

Yes. Generic orings and copper gaskets are sufficient.

The AC wire has a connector that comes apart. Put it back together when you’re done and you’ll be fine. Also, if my memory is fine, the “pipe of agony” has a backing ring that goes behind the oring , do you have that....?

The system is supposed to be rated for 15, but I feel like all this escalated rapidly when I first pumped the tester to the 9-11 mark so I'm a little nervous about pushing it too hard. I just tried it up to halfway between the 9-11 and the 13-14 and first there were some drips from the bottom of the oil pan, although it wasn't anywhere near as bad as before I tightened the clamps. I depressurized and took another stab at the one clamp I hadn't been able to get to because the bolt was under the Y-pipe. I ended up installing a new clamp with the bolt facing the other direction but I still couldn't move the torque wrench far enough to make sure it was correctly tightened, but I could at least get at it with a stubby socket wrench so I tightened it to medium-ish resistance. When I pumped it up to 12-ish again, it's been about 1/2 an hour and no drips underneath yet, and the paper towels I put in the valley are still dry.

IDK, should I leave well enough alone? Worried that this clamp is still a weak link. Why did they put it in such a horrifically inconvenient place? :rant:

54666

What does the backing ring look like? I don't remember seeing it unless it's still in the mixture unit. Although I found a random O-ring over with the rest of the parts so maybe it came off of there.

Lwanmtr

11-23-2017, 12:39 AM

IDK, should I leave well enough alone? Worried that this clamp is still a weak link. Why did they put it in such a horrifically inconvenient place? :rant:

Its in the Laws of Engineering # 134: Always put as many small connectors and screws in an inaccessible location as possible.

sdg3205

11-23-2017, 03:02 AM

The system is supposed to be rated for 15, but I feel like all this escalated rapidly when I first pumped the tester to the 9-11 mark so I'm a little nervous about pushing it too hard. I just tried it up to halfway between the 9-11 and the 13-14 and first there were some drips from the bottom of the oil pan, although it wasn't anywhere near as bad as before I tightened the clamps. I depressurized and took another stab at the one clamp I hadn't been able to get to because the bolt was under the Y-pipe. I ended up installing a new clamp with the bolt facing the other direction but I still couldn't move the torque wrench far enough to make sure it was correctly tightened, but I could at least get at it with a stubby socket wrench so I tightened it to medium-ish resistance. When I pumped it up to 12-ish again, it's been about 1/2 an hour and no drips underneath yet, and the paper towels I put in the valley are still dry.

IDK, should I leave well enough alone? Worried that this clamp is still a weak link. Why did they put it in such a horrifically inconvenient place? :rant:

54666

What does the backing ring look like? I don't remember seeing it unless it's still in the mixture unit. Although I found a random O-ring over with the rest of the parts so maybe it came off of there.

Youve come this far. Pump it to spec! No one is going to die!

DMC-81

11-23-2017, 05:00 AM

If you stayed with rubber hoses and OEM clamps, you should be able to search for "Norma Torro clamp torque " and get a PDF of recommend tightening torque values for each size of those clamps. Like so:

54672

I replaced the hoses on the whole coolant system with OEM parts. When I was done, I pumped the system to 15 psi and made sure it held that pressure overnight. That was 2 years ago and I have a leak free system... So, I agree, that you should be able to go to 14 or 15 to test the system otherwise I'm afraid you may be doing this again.

I would get the correct copper crush rings if you aren't sure that you can get them locally.

Good luck with the job.

FABombjoy

11-23-2017, 09:03 AM

If you stayed with rubber hoses and OEM clamps, you should be able to search for "Norma Torro clamp torque " and get a PDF of recommend tightening torque values for each size of those clamps. Like so:
The Norma clamps are worth the price for these hoses! They're narrow enough that you can even install 2 at most VOD locations as a backup.

Depending on how much you have to do to get it fixed, don't forget to clean up the pipe beads. They can get some serious mineral buildup and you might not get a good seal. I use a Dremel with little wire brush to remove the buildup or just a little sandpaper if I cant fit the Dremel. I changed my WP this summer and probably spend 20-30 minutes getting just the return fittings on each head back into shape.

It will generate quite a bit of dust, so I like to cover any engine openings and use a shop vac to help keep the dust contained.

NckT

11-23-2017, 10:47 AM

I used a hot air gun to completely dry out the valley address then vacuum out any residual dirt. I relayed this until the corners were purely just aluminium and not dirt. Once done I cleaned the aluminium with brake cleaner to degrade it. Once done my personal preference was to paint the area with motorbike engine paint used for aluminium cylinder air cooled cylinder heads for future protection.

Good luck with the project, it'll be worthwhile to change the hoses to silicone ones while you're in there

David T

11-23-2017, 11:51 AM

If all of the hoses, seals, gaskets and water pump are original they should all be replaced. You should not reuse the copper seals, Instead you should always use new ones. Just stopping the current leak is not going to "fix" this. When pressure testing, while very useful, you are doing it when the motor is cold and once it heats up you may still have a leak, especially with the old parts. Torque values on old rubber hoses with dirty clamps means nothing.

DaraSue

11-23-2017, 04:18 PM

I didn't get much done today b/c I had to make cookies for the Thanksgiving potluck at work tonight, but when I checked this morning there was a little dampness under the smaller hose behind the water pump (the one that I had trouble adjusting the clamp on). So I ended up taking the original clamp off and sticking it back on with the bolt turned so I can actually get to it with a wrench (because it was smaller and more maneuverable and also I wasn't 100% sure I wanted to trust a truckstop clamp inside the engine). I'm still poking around for a higher-res version of that torque spec chart posted upthread but I think I got it to 35-40-ish (the torque wrench is still a tight fit and for some reason that bolt was 9/32 instead of 7mm, which took some effort to figure out).

The hoses should all be fairly new since I had the engine overhauled and practically the whole coolant system replaced last winter. They should last more than 8000 miles, right? The waterpump was replaced (twice) last year, too.

DMC-81

11-23-2017, 05:26 PM

Here are a few links for the torque values...

https://www.normagroup.com/norma.nsf/res/NORMACLAMP_TX_en.pdf/$file/NORMACLAMP_TX_en.pdf

https://www.normagroup.com/norma.nsf/res/NORMA_TORRO_datasheet_en.pdf/$file/NORMA_TORRO_datasheet_en.pdf

http://www.groenclamps.nl/files/2014/09/NORMACLAMP-TORRO.pdf

David T

11-23-2017, 10:48 PM

Some of the vendors sell silicone hoses and better clamps in their kits. Because you can't retighten anything under the intake manifold silicone is the way to go but you must use special clamps too. If a hose was leaking, overtightening the clamp won't stop the leak. You must remove the hose, clean up the ends and reinstall the hose. Modern coolant contains additives that will try to seal any leak and they build up as deposits between the hose and the pipe where it leaks preventing a good seal. Make sure the "Y" pipe is not leaking at the "O" rings and filling the voids on top of the block.

DaraSue

11-23-2017, 10:50 PM

Thanks, I'll double check the clamps tomorrow.

Another thing - how much resistance should I encounter when pumping the pressure tester to 15? It takes a lot of effort just around 12 and I didn't think I was that weak. I'm still nervous that I'm doing something wrong (It's the Stant and I'm using the colored arrows, which is how I thought it worked.)

DMC5180

11-24-2017, 12:10 AM

What does the backing ring look like? I don't remember seeing it unless it's still in the mixture unit. Although I found a random O-ring over with the rest of the parts so maybe it came off of there.

The backing ring is brass metal cup shaped piece that the Air pipe O-ring fits into. I could not find a picture of one to post here, but the cross section looks something like this without the dots.

|__ ........... __|

The brass piece retains the O-ring and is pressed into the port in the bottom of the air metering housing.

It looks as though you were able to remove the housing, just look in the hole on the underside to see if the brass cup and O-ring are still in place.

Tip for reinstalling the pipe when the time comes. Disconnect the Rubber elbow hose from the ISM and just work with the pipe for getting it reinserted into the housing. Once it is in place, just rotate the pipe and hose towards the ISM and connect it.

The photo you showed with the large coupler hose bulging would be somewhat normal if the system was under 13-15 psi.

While there are other potential leak points around and behind the pump. The most common repeat leak offender is typically that large coupler hose. There is something about the hot/cold cycling that effects that connection more so than others.

Those connections really need constant tension spring type hose clamps aka GM style clamps. Unfortunately, I’ve yet to find one large enough for that connection.

Rich

11-24-2017, 12:21 PM

Another thing - how much resistance should I encounter when pumping the pressure tester to 15? It takes a lot of effort just around 12 and I didn't think I was that weak. I'm still nervous that I'm doing something wrong (It's the Stant and I'm using the colored arrows, which is how I thought it worked.)

That's all normal. You're not doing anything wrong. The Stant tester is a solid tool.

The instruction manual that came with mine says to pump a 15-16psi system "up to the line indicated by the light yellow arrowhead, do not exceed this point". That pressure is higher than 15-16psi.

Go for it.

DaraSue

11-24-2017, 01:09 PM

The clamps on the fat hose are 40-60 (as far as I could tell from trying to read it with a dental mirror upside down), and the spec sheet says the torque on that is supposed to be 3+.05 NM, which is just under 30 in-lbs. If I tightened it to 40 in-lbs did I break it and need to replace it?

That fat hose seems to be the culprit in the Valley, b/c it was damp under it again this morning (had leaked enough to get a pool in the crevice underneath it even through a paper towel) but I haven't found any leakage from the forked part of the Y-pipe. And now there are two new leaks, one just forward of the engine bay on the passenger's side: 54683 and one up front on the driver's side: 54684

I'd had the tester pumped to between the 9-11 and 13-14 arrows overnight (where the red line is in this pic: 54685) and it didn't really drop noticeably even though it leaked a little.

IDK, before I started messing with it I never saw it leak except for the one by the radiator that I still haven't been able to replicate. I feel like everything I'm doing is just making it worse. Is this normal, to have to redo all the coolant hoses once a year? Should I just put it pack together, let it drip until the snow starts falling and then dump it at the shop for the winter?

DMC5180

11-24-2017, 02:16 PM

You can expect that with as many clamps and hose connections on the Delorean, to need to re-tighten a clamp now and then. This is especially true on New hoses that may not have been properly torqued during initial installation. The Rubber goes through a process know as “Cold Flow”. This is where the rubber takes a permanent set leaving the hose clamp impression in the hose. Once the cold flow set has occurred the tension/compression from the clamp is reduced.
This where Constant force spring clamps really work nice. They are always applying a constant rate of force on the hose when the hose is expanding, contracting, softening and hardening from temperature changes.

40 in lbs is fine. Most hose clamps are generically rated 40-60 in lbs for torquing. Unless you strip the screw and feel it skip a tooth while tightening, you should be okay.

DaraSue

11-24-2017, 02:22 PM

I picked up the $99 borescope from Autozone with a $25 off coupon and poked it around in the cylinder where I was worried that I'd lost the washer. Obviously I couldn't get it under the actual valve but from what I could see it didn't look like there was anything down in there. There was just enough of a gap that I'm still a little nervous but I'm hoping it would be just too much of a coincidence that I would happen to lose one down a cylinder and there's another one that got lost down the valley in the same spot. :paranoid:

While I was out I'd left it pressurized to the 9-11 arrow and it looks like it leaked a little more up front but not by the water pump hoses. Arrrghh...

Rich

11-24-2017, 02:37 PM

That fat hose seems to be the culprit in the Valley, b/c it was damp under it again this morning (had leaked enough to get a pool in the crevice underneath it even through a paper towel) but I haven't found any leakage from the forked part of the Y-pipe.

And now there are two new leaks, one just forward of the engine bay on the passenger's side and one up front on the driver's side.

I'd had the tester pumped to between the 9-11 and 13-14 arrows overnight (where the red line is in this pic: 54685) and it didn't really drop noticeably even though it leaked a little.

IDK, before I started messing with it I never saw it leak except for the one by the radiator that I still haven't been able to replicate. I feel like everything I'm doing is just making it worse. Is this normal, to have to redo all the coolant hoses once a year? Should I just put it pack together, let it drip until the snow starts falling and then dump it at the shop for the winter?

Taking these in order:
Get a mirror under the fat hose after you dry it off and the pressure is on. See which end the leak is at or whether the hose itself is failing. Work from there. Since it's a relatively new hose it is probably OK but you need to know where it's leaking while you are in there.

About the new leaks, first be sure they are both coolant, not oil (rear one) or brake/clutch fluid (front one). Then start tracking them both down. The rear one could be from a bad connection at the tee to the coolant bottle or at the heater valve also near front of engine and a bit over toward the passenger side. Again, get a good light on every suspicious fitting after feeling around for wetness. Dry off anything wet, pump up the system and then look for or feel for the leaks. Fix, rinse, repeat til you have a solid system. The off-season is the perfect time for this kind of work if you have the time and the patience. Otherwise any good shop can do it for you, setting aside getting it there now that the VOD is opened up.

About the test pressure, go higher than what you showed us on the gauge. Yellow arrow is past 15psi and that's your standard/target for holding pressure. Any leaks you see at lower pressure need attention to start with but you need to eventually show no leakage at the yellow arrow with system cold. Or at least at 15psi, the cap pressure. The slight over-pressure offset at the arrow from Stant might be set to account for gauge tolerance and/or high-temp effects as mentioned by others.

Finally, no, it's not normal to have to chase leaks annually. Nothing you do on one connection affects other connections, assuming you aren't wrestling the coolant pipes around. Good hoses/clamps/components can go many years without attention on this car. As for how many there are and the VOD setup being so unfriendly, well, it's the price one pays for having a DMC-12 - they come with an old French/Swedish motor far away from the radiator...

DaraSue

11-24-2017, 02:56 PM

Rich

11-24-2017, 03:19 PM

The new leaks were definitely antifreeze b/c it was bright green where I saw it dripping off the bottom of the car. I'll try poking around with it some more tomorrow.

The weather looks like it's going to be hit and miss for the next couple weeks now so maybe I'm just done for the season and I'll have to mess around with it over the winter. Really wish I'd just left well enough alone and enjoyed the last few warm-ish days before I started taking things apart. :banghead: I filled the tank last time thinking I was going to have another couple weeks to drive before the snow hit, can I safely siphon out the excess fuel and put it in one of my other cars?

Now I see why you were trying so hard to get it back on the road. Sorry you'll miss the last few runs of your season.

Yes, siphoning the gas out is OK, same as in any other car. Your other cars won't care as long as the octane rating works. Along with that plan you may want to see what some in the community say about fuel and winterizing. Maybe you already know how best to do it.

LINK to one winterization thread (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?2015)

dn010

11-24-2017, 04:52 PM

At this point I'd say change both left and right hoses and get new clamps. Lowes - get a bag of stainless clamps and use them. Just because the hose looks good doesn't mean the clamp didn't puncture it on the underside. Moving the clamps around or adding a second clamp still leaves a hole to eventually leak. I also cannot find a picture of the brass ring that goes around the air tube but it is the same size as the O-ring and it presses into the hole of the mixture unit in order to seal the o-ring. I'll look around for a part number.

Also, what winter storage are you using, indoor or out?

dn010

11-24-2017, 04:54 PM

I believe this is the ring: #102294, of course out of stock!

DMC5180

11-24-2017, 05:40 PM

I don’t recall for sure, but I think you need to unbolt the water pump or Y-pipe in order to replace the connector hoses.

dn010

11-24-2017, 05:41 PM

If you spray them down with silicone spray you can get them on without disassembling anything. It’s just tedious.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

DaraSue

11-25-2017, 07:53 PM

So I might have been a little hasty in blaming the fat hose for all my woes. I pumped it up to the 13-14 mark this afternoon (and it was really resisting even getting that far). I kept seeing moisture on the wall of the valley next to the fat hose, but the pattern and where it was looked like it would have had to have squirted sideways out of that hose, and I couldn't see that happening. So I took a closer look at the hose coming off the bottom left side of the thermostat housing and it turned out there was some coolant running out of that one and dripping down the line between where the cylinder holes are and where the lower "V" of the valley is. Which would explain how it got all the way to the forward end of it.

54698

So I tightened the lower clamp and it appeared to stop. We'll see what happens when I get home.

A new wrinkle: drips from the big bolt on the right side of the thermostat housing. Now what?

54699

And this is the hole that (AFAIK) the pipe of agony came out of. Is it supposed to look like this? It looks like there's a scratch or crack inside it.

54700

Dan, I'm storing it inside but it's not a climate-controlled garage.

DMC5180

11-25-2017, 08:14 PM

Some good news, your brass backup ring/retaining cup and o-ring are in place. The crack you see is just a surface flaw. Nothing to worry about.

The big bolt you mentioned having a drip is actually a threaded plug with a copper or aluminum gasket under the head. You might try tightening it with a torque wrench 18-20 ft lbs should be enough.

DaraSue

11-26-2017, 02:54 AM

Update: when I got home from work about 9 hours later, it had lost a couple pounds of pressure.The leakage from the hose by the thermostat was negligible but the leak on the front driver's side was substantially worse.

This pic is from this morning when it wasn't leaking as bad, but it's dripping from the low points at the edges of the closing plate.

54705

If I feel around on top of the plate where the fuel lines run, it feels dry. It's like it's leaking from between the two layers of the plate. There looks to be a coolant hose running under the plate but I guess I have to take the plate off to get to it?

Lwanmtr

11-26-2017, 02:57 AM

The coolant pipes run along side the fuel tank behind that plate

DaraSue

11-26-2017, 05:33 PM

It looks like maybe there are some hoses I can reach if I can get under the car. When using a floor jack under one of the normal jack points, is it normal for the suspension to creak a lot?

dn010

11-26-2017, 05:39 PM

My springs seem to make noise when I jack up the car.

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DMC5180

11-26-2017, 05:40 PM

Yes.

It would be better if you could lift the front using the frame cross member between the front wheels just in front of the closing plate bolts.

dn010

11-26-2017, 05:41 PM

Or just drive up on a few ramps.

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DMC5180

11-26-2017, 05:44 PM

Or just drive up on a few ramps.

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A few ramps, that would be neat trick.

How about a couple ramps [emoji6]

DaraSue

11-27-2017, 02:01 PM

The engine's still in pieces so I couldn't use ramps but I did manage to successfully use the jack and stands to get it lifted high enough to get underneath. The clamps were near the rear end of the closing plate so I didn't actually have to take the plate off, although I loosened the end bolt on the driver's side since it looked like it had been dented slightly (probably happened when I ran over a lane divider in Akron last spring). Once again there wasn't enough room to get a ratchet or torque wrench on the bolt so I had to use a regular old box-end wrench to loosen the clamp and turn it about 45 degrees counterclockwise. I torqued it down to 3-ish NM so we'll see what happens.

While I was under there I saw some seepage by the... hydraulic line? that goes up the inside rear passenger's side. 54723 What fresh hell is this? I couldn't tell what color the fluid was when I was under there but it looks kind of green in this pic so I'm crossing my fingers that it's just some stray antifreeze.

dn010

11-27-2017, 02:10 PM

It looks like antifreeze and road grime but you should still check the area out for anything leaking, especially the rubber hoses on the ends of the heater lines you have pictured - the two smaller aluminum pipes.

Also the black hose is your A/C line, the clutch line runs along the other side of the frame.

DaraSue

11-28-2017, 03:45 AM

Found the leak (I think)

54734

That hose seems to be attached to the back of the solenoid or something? I could only get at it from under the car and the whole assembly kind of wobbled when I tried to tighten it so I was afraid to be too forceful with it. Is this the one that they tell you not to overtighten?

On the bright side, the hose under the closing plate didn't leak anymore while I was at work.

dn010

11-28-2017, 09:15 AM

That's the hot water valve, #100763. The one connector is plastic so it's possible to crack it if it is old and brittle and you over tighten. I'd suggest you take the hose off of it, make sure the connector is not cracked & the hose is not split. You'll lose some coolant but also you'll verify you don't have any damage that might be only masked briefly by cranking down on the clamp, only to fail again later.

The water valve is only held onto the car by the two hoses so it will move freely, it should have a vacuum line connected to it as well.

DaraSue

11-28-2017, 11:32 AM

Is there an easier way to get to it than crawling under the car and reaching up? Another one that's in a really awkward spot, arrgh. (According to my invoice from CA they installed a complete hose kit so that part should have been included but I'll see what I can see.)

Is there a limit to how high it's safe to jack the car? I've been doing it just high enough to get a set of stands at the lowest height under the side jack points with the jack under the center piece in the front and it sounds like the car is protesting even that much, but it's a pretty tight fit to get under there and really awkward to move around...

dn010

11-28-2017, 11:51 AM

It is also accessible from above but with the fuel distributor and lines there, either way it's a PITA.

How safe? Depends on the jack stands as some are either very cheap and flimsy or very heavy duty. For me if I need to, I'll go midway up the jack stands or a notch more and I'm comfortable but mine are pretty heavy duty. I've worked on many vehicles with them maxed out to the highest without ever having an issue but I never felt safe that way and always had a backup like you have- a jack under it somewhere or additional jack stands at other points.

Is there an easier way to get to it than crawling under the car and reaching up? Another one that's in a really awkward spot, arrgh. (According to my invoice from CA they installed a complete hose kit so that part should have been included but I'll see what I can see.)

Is there a limit to how high it's safe to jack the car? I've been doing it just high enough to get a set of stands at the lowest height under the side jack points with the jack under the center piece in the front and it sounds like the car is protesting even that much, but it's a pretty tight fit to get under there and really awkward to move around...

NckT

11-28-2017, 12:52 PM

Chock the wheels as well as axle stands if you're jacking the rear of the car up as the handbrake operates the rear only.

Be safe, be seeing you :)

PJ Grady Inc.

11-28-2017, 04:13 PM

I believe this is the ring: #102294, of course out of stock!
We have these available but this one looks usable.
Rob

DMC5180

11-28-2017, 04:27 PM

With intake off, you should have access to it from the topside without to much trouble. You could remove the black shock tower cradle cross brace to get that out of your way if need. One bolt on each side.

DaraSue

11-28-2017, 04:38 PM

Today's update: it lost a few lbs of pressure overnight but weirdly didn't lose much fluid. This time it was leaking from the T-pipe at the forward end of the engine. I think the leak was coming from the passenger's side heater hose but the clamp on the smaller hose at the top of it (the bleed hose that comes off the coolant bottle) was really loose, like I could move it around without even loosening it further. I tried tightening it but while I was trying to use the torque wrench it got to a point where it felt like it got loose again? I was subsequently able to tighten it again after that but does that mean it was stripped and it's a time bomb that should be replaced?

Edit: pic of the t-pipe, in case some other sucker has this problem and wants to know exactly what I'm talking about: 54740

It seems to be a running theme that it will hold pressure while I'm at work (3-11 ish at night) and then when I go down to check it the next morning (usually around 8-9 am) it's down a few lbs. Is there some other reason this could be happening other than that my clamps are mysteriously loosening after 10 hours? Would low overnight temps cause the pipes to contract that much? It's in a garage but it's not heated or airtight and it's probably been 30-40 F overnight.

(P. S. Don't worry, I've the wheels chocked on both sides when I lift the car. I swear I used to be able to fit under it without even jacking it up. Either my new shocks are lower than the old ones or I need to lay off the cupcakes...)

(P. P. S. I tried taking the hose off the hot water valve from underneath the car but it really didn't want to come off the plastic bit so I figured I'd better just leave well enough alone.)

dn010

11-28-2017, 04:41 PM

DaraSue

11-28-2017, 05:06 PM

Perhaps you can compare your pressure stats with the ones here? As I stated in that thread, just because the system is sealed doesn't mean the tool itself won't leak off some pressure after a period of time.

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?16002-Head-Gasket-issue/page2

Huh, maybe that's a possibility. What's considered a cheap tester? Mine's the Stant from... I think Napa? I got it in Rock Springs when I first bought the car. I think it was around $100.

If the valley hoses hold tonight, I might start putting it back together tomorrow and see what happens.

DMCMW Dave

11-28-2017, 07:11 PM

Huh, maybe that's a possibility. What's considered a cheap tester? Mine's the Stant from... I think Napa? I got it in Rock Springs when I first bought the car. I think it was around $100.

If the valley hoses hold tonight, I might start putting it back together tomorrow and see what happens.

The Stant is a fine unit. I wouldn't get too hung up on long term (over an hour is a lot) pressure loss. Air will leak where fluid won't. If you see fluid running and hitting the ground you have a problem.

Sometimes you'll get a leak where the tool attaches due to flaws in the header bottle, but the leak won't be there with the real cap.

dn010

11-28-2017, 08:56 PM

Point is, there is a reason there are specs “should not lose 1lb in 3 minutes”, “no more than one lb in 10 minutes” etc. It will never hold pressure for extended periods of time. So, as long as you are within the parameters of that tester you should be fine, especially if you don’t see drips anywhere. But, as in my case, I had to rule out a faulty tester (by putting soapy water in the neck of the radiator then pressurizing which caused bubbles until I put an oring on that particular vehicle which was a Nissan”. There are so many points in which the Delorean can leak coolant, just go over them to be sure and you won’t have to revisit it for a long time especially if you have the hose kit already.

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DaraSue

11-29-2017, 11:39 AM

It held pressure overnight and I didn't see any new leaks this morning. I think maybe that hose on top of the T-pipe was the culprit for the pressure loss? I replaced the clamp on it last night with one from AutoZone so hopefully it holds up. I'm feeling pretty good about putting it back together now.

I can't find a specific torque spec for the bolts that hold the manifold onto the engine, is there one?

dn010

11-29-2017, 01:24 PM

The book gives two different torques for the same thing.

A:03:04, 9ft lbs - 14Nm
C:02:03, 11ft lbs - 15Nm

So, I'd go with 10ft lbs.

Edit: I am not sure if you did this but it's a good idea to put paper towels or something clean into the head intake ports when the intake is removed. I sometimes put masking tape over them so no debris falls in. It's a good idea to use a shop vac in those ports before you put the intake back on so you're sure you don't have any crap making its way into the cylinder.

DaraSue

11-29-2017, 04:28 PM

54745

Taking lunch break before I tackle the fuel lines. Three hours later I guess I'm about halfway done. I double checked with MW on the intake bolts and Jason said officially it's 11 but since it's so hard to get a torque wrench down in there I'm mostly going with "snug." I'd had some paper towels stuffed in the ports while I was messing around and I just left them in there until I had the manifold mostly-situated and then lifted it up enough to pull them out.

Looking at the copper washers, it looks like they don't actually have to fit inside anything so I guess since the replacements I bought have the same diameter on the inside, they should be okay?

One potential snag: I have no idea WTF I did with my radiator cap. Really hoping I didn't leave it sitting on the back of the CRX and then drive away with it still on there. :banghead: Can I get a replacement from any auto parts store?

dn010

11-29-2017, 04:37 PM

DaraSue

11-29-2017, 10:04 PM

David T

11-29-2017, 10:55 PM

Dinner break.

The guys at MW thought an off the shelf one would work.

Are the fuel line connectors that go into the engine supposed to be loose? Mine wiggle around a little and I didn't notice whether they were like that before.

If you are referring to the fuel injectors, yes, they are in rubber seals and can move a little. There are small metal clips that prevent them from coming out. Any 15# rad cap that fits properly should work, you don't need to buy one from a Delorean vendor.

DaraSue

11-29-2017, 11:48 PM

As long as the copper washers fit the hollow bolts you're fine. Tighten them down, pressurize and make sure they don't leak. Don't over tighten the bolts or they'll snap pretty easily.

As for the radiator cap, that is a good question. It's a shame, I just threw away a plastic radiator and doubt the copper radiator I have sitting has a cap but I'll check and if it's there I can send it to you if you can't find yours. I thought I had a second plastic radiator stored but I may have tossed that one out too over the years!

Whoops. I said radiator cap but it's actually the coolant bottle cap I'm missing. I got one at Autozone that looked like it might work but hopefully the other one turns up.

If you are referring to the fuel injectors, yes, they are in rubber seals and can move a little. There are small metal clips that prevent them from coming out. Any 15# rad cap that fits properly should work, you don't need to buy one from a Delorean vendor.

Yeah, the injectors. After running to Autozone (and Wal-Mart for a new fire extinguisher) I'm pretty beat and it's probably too cold to work with the garage door open/test drive if there's a higher-than-normal probability of a breakdown so I'll attempt a start tomorrow morning.

DMC5180

11-30-2017, 12:09 AM

Dinner break.

The guys at MW thought an off the shelf one would work.

Are the fuel line connectors that go into the engine supposed to be loose? Mine wiggle around a little and I didn't notice whether they were like that before.

Make sure you replace both gaskets on each hollow bolt and torque them this chart.

I prefer the low number for each. I’ve seen someone (not me) break an M8 from using the good n tight method.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171130/ef43c93926b0150213c60ea8d7a86531.jpg

DaraSue

11-30-2017, 12:37 AM

Make sure you replace both gaskets on each hollow bolt and torque them this chart.

I prefer the low number for each. I’ve seen someone (not me) break an M8 from using the good n tight method.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171130/ef43c93926b0150213c60ea8d7a86531.jpg

I replaced the ones on the distributor, I don't need to replace the ones on the injectors if I didn't take them off, do I?

DMC5180

11-30-2017, 06:35 AM

I replaced the ones on the distributor, I don't need to replace the ones on the injectors if I didn't take them off, do I?

No

DaraSue

11-30-2017, 01:05 PM

Success! (More or less.) I was off to a rocky start when I tried to start it and found leaks on two of the forward passengers side bolts. I'd turned the key to the II position to prime it first and didn't see or smell any leaks but I must have either not tightened them enough or missed torquing them entirely while puzzling out which ones to attach first.

I replaced those washers and re-fastened them and finally got the car started. i let it idle and watched it for a few minutes while I put the air filter back on and then took it for a spin. It drove pretty normally except it's idling at 2000. If that's the biggest issue I have I can live with it but did I accidentally mess something up while fumbling around with the throttle or the switches?

No overheating issues or coolant leaks that I saw.

When I got back I felt around the fuel lines and the 17MM one on the back was a little wet underneath so I'll re-do that one in a little bit after it cools off.

David T

11-30-2017, 02:26 PM

Because of the high pressures in the fuel system you can have a leak and the escaping fuel can vaporize immediately so you don't see a leak but you will smell the fuel. Be careful retightening any hollow bolts, if you torqued it and it leaks you must replace the washers. Overtightening to stop a leak will just break the bolts. Once you use the copper seals they get work-hardened and won't seal properly again unless you anneal them to soften them up. Not worth it, just use new seals. You do not have to replace any seals that you didn't touch unless they are leaking.

dn010

11-30-2017, 02:46 PM

Check your electrical connections and harness to be sure you didn't miss a ground connection, also check the inside of the idle speed motor connector-harness side, make sure a pin didn't get pushed in (mine had a wire break under the weather boot once). Be sure your throttle spool returns all the way to the closed position and is not binding. You've already gotten good advice about the fuel connectors and reattaching/sealing them. This is why it's easier to remove the whole fuel distributor from the mixture unit using the three mounting screws than it is to unbolt every connector and deal with the washers, etc.

DMC5180

11-30-2017, 02:47 PM

The High idle rpm may be due to play in the Throttle linkage. Since you disturbed this stuff with the intake removal the idle micro-switch may not be tripping.

Its easy to verify by manually pressing the switch with a screwdriver.

DMC5180

11-30-2017, 03:19 PM

Also verify vacuum advance solenoid electrical connector is plugged in.

DaraSue

11-30-2017, 07:21 PM

After replacing the washers on the 17mm bolt and the 12mm next to it several times without success, I finally called MW in desperation thinking I might need to replace the lines, but Mike said sometimes you have to tighten them past the spec torque to get them to stop leaking. So i tightened them to 15 and 9 respectively and then gave them another crank with the socket wrench and it seems like that did the trick. It held on my test drive and on my way to work (I stopped to double-check before I got on the freeway).

Now I'll start chasing the idle issue. So far the vacuum lines look ok and from what I can see with the scope, the pipe of agony appears to be in place (although I left the tape on it, figuring that if it worked like that before, I didn't want to introduce any new variables).

Bitsyncmaster

11-30-2017, 07:47 PM

Also verify vacuum advance solenoid electrical connector is plugged in.

+1

I ended up soldering wires on the solenoid and putting a different two pin connector on those wires. If it falls off that will defiantly mess up your idle.

David T

11-30-2017, 08:28 PM

+1

I ended up soldering wires on the solenoid and putting a different two pin connector on those wires. If it falls off that will defiantly mess up your idle.

You may have to adjust the quadrant link so the throttle arm goes all the way closed and you hit the idle micro. It has a right-hand thread on one end and a left-hand thread on the other so you can adjust it very precisely. The ball sockets often develop a lot of play so you may have to lengthen it enough to push the throttle arm all the way.

DaraSue

11-30-2017, 09:47 PM

I'll start checking these things out tomorrow. Something else I noticed when putting the mixture assembly back in, the throttle body was a little wiggly where it attached to the mixture part. Is that a potential issue?

(I should probably confess that I tripped over the assembly and tipped it over while it was out. It was already on the floor so it didn't drop or anything but could something in it have gotten damaged?)

DMC5180

11-30-2017, 10:00 PM

There is a flexible joint between the throttle assembly and metering housing. A little wiggle is normal.

Damage from tripping over it, not really.

DaraSue

11-30-2017, 11:04 PM

Another thing - when it's idling, i hear this sort of faint popping sound, like a quiet backfire or misfire. I hear that sound when I back off the accelerator at freeway speeds but I don't remember hearing it during idle before.

DaraSue

12-01-2017, 01:42 AM

Another potential clue to the mystery: when I started up after work (it sat for about 8 hours, it was just above freezing by the end of the night) it was idling around 1500 and I wasn't hearing the noise. After driving about 5 miles on the freeway, I stopped to check the gas lines and it was back around 2000 and I was hearing the noise again.

When I got home I double-checked the electrical connectors on the warm up regulator, idle speed motor, solenoid and cold start valve and nothing looked visibly amiss. I'll take a look at the throttle and idle switch tomorrow.

DaraSue

12-01-2017, 01:36 PM

Problem found: 54759 54760

The cable was partly out of its groove, which was making the screws not hit the switch. After putting it back it idles lower but it's still around 1500. If I push down on the arm with the two screws I can make it go lower but then it goes back to 1500 if I rev the engine and let it drop back down.

Do I need to adjust the screws? David T, when you refer to "quadrant link" and "throttle arm", exactly which pieces are those?

dn010

12-01-2017, 02:42 PM

This was one of the aggravating issues I had with this engine. The damn spool, no matter what, would never return to closed for me. There would be that little bit it would stop open and I too had high 1500+ revving engine. #102555 is the link that needs adjusting - I tried this and it never worked but mine was worn so I installed a spring from the spool to the closing panel to help.

Make sure nothing is binding or holding the spool from closing, make sure the spring on the top of the spool is set to it's highest tension [by picture it looks like it is correct] and then lastly adjust the linkage.

DaraSue

12-01-2017, 02:49 PM

So I need to twist those bolts by the ball sockets on the end of that rod to lengthen or shorten it?

dn010

12-01-2017, 02:52 PM

Disconnect the spool end (remove the clip and push or gently knock the socket off the ball stud), hold the socket end with a vice grip and loosen the nut with an open end wrench- the nuts are there to lock the sockets in place. Then spin the disconnected socket outwards a turn or two, reconnect it and see if it helped. If it did, tighten up the nut, put the clip back on the socket and have a beer. If it did not, try more adjusting.

dn010

12-01-2017, 02:53 PM

C:13:01 has a picture of the clips if you have your workshop manual handy.

DaraSue

12-01-2017, 03:10 PM

Oh, I didn't realize the long end of the clip was supposed to go through the ball socket. I'm going to try fixing that before I do anything else.

DaraSue

12-01-2017, 03:46 PM

Correcting that clip didn't help, but I was able to adjust the linkage rod and then it idled normally.

Hopefully that's it for this thread... thanks for your help, everybody! I probably saved at least $1500 and two weeks of sitting around pining for my car by doing it myself, lol...

DaraSue

12-01-2017, 05:22 PM

D'oh, it was back up at 1500-1700 on my way to work. Still, I'm assuming I'm on the right track since it briefly went back to normal after I adjusted that linkage? I'll mess with it some more tomorrow.

Bitsyncmaster

12-01-2017, 05:42 PM

Another tip for you guys with a sticky throttle is to put some grease on the springs (spool and butterfly arm). I did that 5 years ago when mine was sticky and have not had the problem since.

DMC5180

12-01-2017, 06:06 PM

Lubing the springs will help. You can also adjust the stop screw in a turn or two . This will help overcome the force required to depress the switch itself.

DMC5180

12-01-2017, 06:13 PM

Another tip for you guys with a sticky throttle is to put some grease on the springs (spool and butterfly arm). I did that 5 years ago when mine was sticky and have not had the problem since.

Dave, do you still use the micro-switch in conjunction with your custom ECU?

Bitsyncmaster

12-01-2017, 07:32 PM

Dave, do you still use the micro-switch in conjunction with your custom ECU?

No I removed both the idle switch and WOT switch. Removing the idle switch also puts less pressure on the throttle returning to idle.

DMC5180

12-01-2017, 07:43 PM

No I removed both the idle switch and WOT switch. Removing the idle switch also puts less pressure on the throttle returning to idle.

Well if you removed them,then its probably not a fair statement to say you have not had any sticky throttle issues for 5 years. The assumption being the sticky throttle would not allow the micro switch to trip and cause the high idle on occasion.[emoji6]

AugustneverEnds

12-01-2017, 07:45 PM

Nice job diagnosing and fixing your problems :thumbup:

If greasing the springs in the throttle assemble doesn't solve your idle issue you may want to have a look at your ignition coil. I spent two weeks this summer adjusting the throttle linkage and couldn't get the idle to stop intermittently rising to 1500ish. Out of desperation I pulled the ign. coil and found years of crud built on the electrode. Replacing the coil returned the idle to its regular 750ish.

DaraSue

12-02-2017, 01:47 AM

Now I'm really confused. When I started up after work (11pm, around 40F), it hunted for a minute and then settled a little below 1000, which is pretty close to normal. Then as I was waiting at the gate it was around 1200-1300. When I got off the freeway it was back up around 1700. Then as I was getting to my house it was around 1100-1200. I drove around my neighborhood for another 15 minutes and it stayed there.

????

Also, if I need to grease the throttle cable do I use WD40 or is there something else that's better?

P.S. Nick, I replaced my coil last spring, although the coil turned out not to be the culprit for that issue so the old one is probably still good. I guess if all else fails I could try that.

Lwanmtr

12-02-2017, 02:21 AM

For alot of that kind of lubrication I like to use a silicon spray..works good and its dry and wont promote rust. Im sure other folks have suggestions as well.

AugustneverEnds

12-02-2017, 08:17 AM

You're probably right about the coil not being the cause since you replaced it recently.

I use white lithium grease on the throttle return spring and the small deceleration springs in the butterfly assembly.

Have you looked behind the drivers seat under the carpet at the idle ECU? Everything plugged in securely?

DaraSue

12-02-2017, 03:56 PM

After greasing the spring on the microswitch lever it's now idling pretty consistently around 1200. Something else I discovered while playing around with it this morning was that if I opened the throttle slowly by hand while idling, it would stick at around 1700 but if I snapped it fast it would drop back down around 1000. The lever seems to be sitting where it should be when the engine is off which I assume is why it will idle below 1000 when I first start up. So I guess I'm still looking for something between the spool and the switch? Or is it time to adjust the screws? Something else I noticed while driving around, if the RPM was below 1000 because I was slowing down, it would go up above 1000 when I put the clutch in to stop.

I may have to pick this back up in the spring because it's supposed to snow on Monday and rain tomorrow, but I put about 40 miles on it just driving around in circles today and I'm down to a little over 1/4 tank so by the time I get home from work I should be pretty well set to park it for a couple months if I have to...

DMC5180

12-02-2017, 08:42 PM

Try shortening the rod end linkage 2-3 turns. If that doesn’t do it, adjust the micro-switch screw in a couple turns.

DMC-81

12-03-2017, 05:06 AM

^ Additionally, how free is your throttle cable? I wonder if perhaps the cold temperatures are causing a little bit of water in the sheath to freeze and make it stick.

DaraSue

12-03-2017, 12:56 PM

Try shortening the rod end linkage 2-3 turns. If that doesn’t do it, adjust the micro-switch screw in a couple turns.

I think that did the trick. I took it out for a spin and it stayed comfortably below 1000. 54801 Maybe still a smidge high, but I can live with it. I don't spend a ton of time in stop and go traffic anyway.

^ Additionally, how free is your throttle cable? I wonder if perhaps the cold temperatures are causing a little bit of water in the sheath to freeze and make it stick.

What other symptoms would I see if that were the case? It seems pretty normal when I'm actually driving.

DMC5180

12-03-2017, 01:15 PM

I think that did the trick. I took it out for a spin and it stayed comfortably below 1000. 54801 Maybe still a smidge high, but I can live with it. I don't spend a ton of time in stop and go traffic anyway.

What other symptoms would I see if that were the case? It seems pretty normal when I'm actually driving.

If the cable were to freeze, you would know it. The pedal wouldn’t move or you would have stiff pedal when applying initial pressure that suddenly releases.

I think in your case, you disrupted the configuration when removed all of the components to access to VOD. Reassembly was not exactly in the original positions.

You said, idles below 1000. It should be 775 +\- 25 unless the guys at one the service shops tweaked it up a little. What are you actually seeing?

dn010

12-03-2017, 01:42 PM

I thought I read somewhere earlier saying you obtained an inspection camera / bore scope - you should use it to confirm you have the pipe of agony installed and sealed correctly, very easy for that washer to pop out of the intake and the o-ring to get crunched. Silicone spray is your friend when installing that pipe. Odd question but how did it feel when you installed the pipe into the intake? If it went right in with no resistance maybe it is damaged and that is why it had tape on it - and now you've got a vacuum leak causing your increased RPM at idle.

DMC5180

12-03-2017, 02:11 PM

At the end of the day, You took on the challenge of going into the VOD to fix the problem yourself. THAT IMO is totally awesome [emoji122]

You go girl [emoji106]

David T

12-03-2017, 02:50 PM

Try shortening the rod end linkage 2-3 turns. If that doesn’t do it, adjust the micro-switch screw in a couple turns.

That was my suggestion back at post #79!

DaraSue

12-03-2017, 03:49 PM

If the cable were to freeze, you would know it. The pedal wouldn’t move or you would have stiff pedal when applying initial pressure that suddenly releases.

I think in your case, you disrupted the configuration when removed all of the components to access to VOD. Reassembly was not exactly in the original positions.

You said, idles below 1000. It should be 775 +\- 25 unless the guys at one the service shops tweaked it up a little. What are you actually seeing?

The pic of the gauge that I posted above is about where it sits at a warm idle. It fluctuates a little bit but it stays below 1000 now.

I thought I read somewhere earlier saying you obtained an inspection camera / bore scope - you should use it to confirm you have the pipe of agony installed and sealed correctly, very easy for that washer to pop out of the intake and the o-ring to get crunched. Silicone spray is your friend when installing that pipe. Odd question but how did it feel when you installed the pipe into the intake? If it went right in with no resistance maybe it is damaged and that is why it had tape on it - and now you've got a vacuum leak causing your increased RPM at idle.

This pic isn't from today but I took it after reinstallation. 54807 I did notice when I took it out originally that it came out very easily. I thought it went in pretty easily unless it's not actually in all the way but I had to stick the borescope in and nudge it around to even see where it was going. I take it that it should have taken more effort to get it stuck in there?

At the end of the day, You took on the challenge of going into the VOD to fix the problem yourself. THAT IMO is totally awesome [emoji122]

You go girl [emoji106]

:cheers: It was definitely a learning experience. Our own opethmike who wrote the how-to said he could do it in 45 minutes but it took me like a day on either side. Hopefully the next time will be faster now that I have a slightly better idea what not to do. Good practice if I ever need to do it in a Motel 6 parking lot in Nebraska, LOL.

That was my suggestion back at post #79!

I actually did try adjusting the rod yesterday but I guess the problem was actually that the spring was sticky and I needed to adjust it back again to get it in the ballpark? Maybe I need to keep fine tuning it (in the springtime).

It was 55 and partly sunny this morning so I got to take it out for one last cruise, at least. I'm down to about 2 needlewidths above empty so at least now I don't have 3/4 tank sitting there getting sludgy for the next couple months.

54808

opethmike

12-03-2017, 04:54 PM

Hello! I'm very glad that my guide continues to be useful. It could stand to be refined, but I am happy that it has helped several people. True, I can do it in < 45 minutes nowadays, but the first time took me a whole day too.

It's a very good project to do as one of your first bigger tasks. You should be proud of yourself, diving this deep can be intimidating, and you did just fine. Some small things at the end, but it sounds like you've overcome the problems.

Congratulations! Next up, LS swap! :) :) :)

DMC-81

12-03-2017, 04:54 PM

DaraSue, I'm glad you got it sorted. Very impressive! :thumbup:

These cars can sometimes wear on your patience.

DMC5180

12-03-2017, 07:02 PM

That was my suggestion back at post #79!

David, Your suggestion, however, was too lengthen the link.

You have to shorten it to remove the slack and preload it at idle. The slack then moves to opening the throttle, which is of no concern.

DaraSue

12-04-2017, 11:53 AM

Thanks again for your help and advice, everybody! It was quite a project (especially considering I'd never even changed my own oil before buying this car, and technically still haven't), but it was worth it to have a few extra days of driving before the snow hit.:driving1:

opethmike

12-04-2017, 01:41 PM

I'm glad the guide proved useful. Can I hug your car?

DaraSue

12-04-2017, 02:05 PM

I'm glad the guide proved useful. Can I hug your car?

LOL, if I ever make it back to the east coast, sure. :biggrin:

opethmike

12-04-2017, 04:07 PM

Already bought plane tickets and on my way.

DaraSue

02-16-2019, 04:46 PM

A postscript to this story... I had the intake off to replace the plug wires, didn't see any coolant in there (a lake of clutch fluid though) but pressure tested it just to be sure and got leaks around 14. Ended up ordering hoses & clamps from DMCMW and DPI in the hopes that one of them would arrive in time for my friend (our own hippieman9) to help with the install, DPI's arrived earlier in the morning so that's what we went with. They're the silicone ones so I'll give that a try and if it doesn't work out at least I've already got a spare set.

Seen here during installation: 59261