DMCL Engine EPA Certification ***SPLIT From What's The Best Oil***

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Scientific interests are why Volvo TSB is so interesting. Volvo used a wide variety of PRVs for far longer and would have had access to scientific testing and a large sampling of statistical data regarding oil-related failures. If feel like if I have to take the word of DMC or Volvo I would side with Volvo.

Remember that DMC was really struggling to meet EPA certification. They couldn't piggyback on Volvo's certification (as Bricklin did with AMC's certification). DeLorean oil spec may well have been based on EPA requirements rather than engine health/longevity concerns.

DeLorean's iteration of K-Jetted PRV differs from Volvo in several respects. Not only is DeLorean missing air injection, but its ignition advance is totally different (both centrifugal and vacuum). Lighter oil spec may well have been part of the detuning process.

Bill Robertson
#5939

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Internally DeLorean's PRV is identical to Volvo B28F. Differences were in bolt on devices (spark advance vacuum cutoff, smog pump, distributor internals, etc).

Interesting nuance on my 1983 Volvo (B28F): a bolt on vacuum pump to power the climate control system.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DMCVegas]

Remember that DMC was really struggling to meet EPA certification. They couldn't piggyback on Volvo's certification (as Bricklin did with AMC's certification). DeLorean oil spec may well have been based on EPA requirements rather than engine health/longevity concerns.

DeLorean's iteration of K-Jetted PRV differs from Volvo in several respects. Not only is DeLorean missing air injection, but its ignition advance is totally different (both centrifugal and vacuum). Lighter oil spec may well have been part of the detuning process.

Bill Robertson
#5939

I've honestly no idea what you're talking about...

The PRV was indeed an engine certified by the EPA in 1976. Now as with any engine, once it itself is certified as an engine to operate within the United States, it then in turn must have a separate certification for any platforms it is installed upon. So for example when Ford came out with a Triton Modular 4.6 V8, that engine went through testing and became certified within itself. But then it has lesser certifications for which it then must go through and be approved for specific platform use. Which in this case would have meant testing for the Mustang, F-150, Crown Victoria, Grand Marquis, and Mark VIII. Etcetera, so on and so forth for ANY engine that comes to market. This is the specific law with which the EPA regulates engine swaps with.

The DMC-12 is the same thing here. When the PRV was first certified for use in the United States in 1976, it did so with K-Jetronic CI Fuel Injection. So when De Lorean Motor Company wished to use the same certified engine in the DMC-12 platform, they needed to only incur minimal application testing. Hence only 50,000 miles. Now unless there was some sort of Federal rule change previously, this is the EXACT same process that Bricklin would have went through. Use AMC's EPA certification of the 360ci V8 with a minor platform certification for the SV-1.

The plumbing on the Idle Speed Circuit is different simply because BOSCH developed a more advanced system that could better handle emissions. CIS, or Constant Idle Speed. The initial incarnation of K-Jetronic CI (to be technically correct, CI stands for Continuous Injection, and CIS actually means Constant Idle Speed) used an Auxiliary Air Valve. But the air valve had absolutely NOTHING at all to do with primary management of idle speed. BOSCH used the 3 screws aft of the Butterfly Valves to set idle speed, and to rough balance air between the cylinder banks. The final "plumbing" that you see was a pipe to let ΔP fine-tune the balance between the two. The sole function of the Auxiliary Air Valve was to bypass the idle speed screws for both cold operation, and A/C operation to prevent bogging down of the engine. Just like a kicker solenoid on a carburetor.

CIS was introduced to allow the engine to be able to set specific idle speeds regardless of specific load or temperature, which further reduced emissions from the engine. But make no mistake, that was a BOSCH revision, not a DMC modification. Otherwise you're comparing the B27F engine in the 260 Series to the B28F in the DMC-12 which DID get utilized in the 760 Series Volvos.

As for "lighter spec" oil, again, I don't know where you're getting that from. DMC actually placed recommendations for heavier oil than Volvo ever did. Volvo tops-out at 15w40, and DMC was recommending to go to 20w50. Otherwise, the oil recommendation ranges are identical.

I don't really know anything about how DMC was "struggling" to pass EPA standards, and I've never heard of that before. Especially when Volvo was passing emissions with the same engines in cars that weight over a quarter-ton MORE than the DMC-12. As I have understood it, the overzealous catalytic converter was done to guarantee a pass rather than to tune for performance. And that makes sense given that the 260 was rated at 130hp as well. But without any specific citation, we're both operating off of hearsay on that point. Europe was also known to have different emissions and leaded fuel standards during that time, so it may be possible that the different distributors contributed to that. But again, without specific documentation, who knows.

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I've honestly no idea what you're talking about...

Read Nick Sutton's book. DMC's EPA struggles are also in the earlier books. Renault really struggled to get the DeLorean EPA certified.

DMC did *NOT* piggyback on Volvo's EPA certification. They had to prove their PRV installation from scratch.

Bricklin, by contrast, piggybacked on AMC's 360 certification. As such Bricklin only had to do a couple thousand miles of proving. According to Terry Tanner they knocked it out in a week (altogether Bricklin was about 6 months from the Grey Ghost to production automobiles).

Bill Robertson
#5939

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Volvo used CIS on its North American installations. Difference in idle plumbing is full time ported vacuum to spark advance:

40362

B28F distributor has a couple of other differences:
- Heavier centrifugal weights
- Vacuum diaphragm allows more advance (total advance is determined by length of the diaphragm connecting arm)
Combined effect is a steeper advance curve and greater total advance.

Bill Robertson
#5939

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2 years ago a group of DeLorean owners spent a day visiting with Terry Tanner at his Bedford VA shop (Tanner was the lead engineer for productionizing the Bricklin). He gave a very detailed presentation of the car's development, including EPA certifications (both AMC 360 and Ford 351).

Tanner has since passed away.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[David T]

Read Nick Sutton's book. DMC's EPA struggles are also in the earlier books. Renault really struggled to get the DeLorean EPA certified.

DMC did *NOT* piggyback on Volvo's EPA certification. They had to prove their PRV installation from scratch.

Bricklin, by contrast, piggybacked on AMC's 360 certification. As such Bricklin only had to do a couple thousand miles of proving. According to Terry Tanner they knocked it out in a week (altogether Bricklin was about 6 months from the Grey Ghost to production automobiles).

Bill Robertson
#5939

Not quite true. DMC had to do an abbreviated certification, the engine package was already "certifiable" by the EPA. DMC built 2 mules and ran then each for 50,000 miles along with the formal documents and testing.

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I am traveling and thus do not have my books at hand, but people who were there clearly state in their memoirs that Volvo was in no way involved with DMC's EPA certification -- it was all Renault. I will post page references after I get home.

DMC's installation differs from North American Volvo in several respects (external differences -- engine internals are the same). Fuel injection is basically the same -- same Series 066 CPR for example -- but ignition is markedly different in several respects. Volvo also used EGR and air injection. I suspect DMC would have had easier EPA certification if they used EGR and air injectrion as well.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DMCVegas]

I am traveling and thus do not have my books at hand, but people who were there clearly state in their memoirs that Volvo was in no way involved with DMC's EPA certification -- it was all Renault. I will post page references after I get home.

DMC's installation differs from North American Volvo in several respects (external differences -- engine internals are the same). Fuel injection is basically the same -- same Series 066 CPR for example -- but ignition is markedly different in several respects. Volvo also used EGR and air injection. I suspect DMC would have had easier EPA certification if they used EGR and air injectrion as well.

Bill Robertson
#5939

No one is saying that DMC had anything to do with Volvo. Hell, even DMC got into an argument with Lotus over Volvo's involvement.

It's also not "piggybacking" at all. It's called a Certified Configuration. Once an engine is approved for use by the EPA, a Certified Configuration then has to be sought and approved for said power plant's installation into a specific platform, or multiple platforms as my prior example demonstrated. Now if there was a prior exemption 7-8 years prior, that may be. But DMC didn't have to "re-certify" the PRV at all. They just needed a Certified Configuration for the DMC-12 platform. I haven't had a chance to look at Nick Sutton's book, and mine are no where near me right now, but I'm pretty sure there was also mention made of this either in De Lorean or Dream Maker.

As for EGR valves on PRVs, which year and engine type is it that you're referencing? Because it sounds like you're talking about the B27F. The DMC-12 used the B28F with the revised oil passages and emissions systems. Which Volvo utilized a year after DMC in the 760 Series. Same engine and configuration in the North American Market, and in Europe I'm pretty sure the old emissions systems were ditched as well.

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B28F EGR was done through the U pipes. That's what the blockoff plate is for.

Air injection was done into the exhaust pipe (before the converter).

Of course Volvo's catalytic converter was different.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DMCVegas]

B28F EGR was done through the U pipes. That's what the blockoff plate is for.

Air injection was done into the exhaust pipe (before the converter).

Of course Volvo's catalytic converter was different.

Bill Robertson
#5939

There's the Bill I know. If I ask one question at a time, you start getting elusive as a way to stay on top. If I post them all at once, you then just deflect to criticizing the length of my posts.

That is the same engine, with completely different emissions controls, and is different than what we're talking about.

Mods, please split this thread.

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There's the Bill I know. If I ask one question at a time, you start getting elusive as a way to stay on top. If I post them all at once, you then just deflect to criticizing the length of my posts.

That is the same engine, with completely different emissions controls, and is different than what we're talking about.

Mods, please split this thread.

Be nice. *YOU* asked if EGR was B27F only -- Post #36:


As for EGR valves on PRVs, which year and engine type is it that you're referencing? Because it sounds like you're talking about the B27F. The DMC-12 used the B28F with the revised oil passages and emissions systems. Which Volvo utilized a year after DMC in the 760 Series. Same engine and configuration in the North American Market, and in Europe I'm pretty sure the old emissions systems were ditched as well.

I answered your question: Volvo definitely used EGR on B28F.

If you really don't want to know if EGR was B27F only, don't ask.

If you ask if EGR was B27F only, don't get mad when someone answers your question.

I included air injection because the two typically went hand in hand at the turn of the 80's. Mist cars with EGR also had smog pumps, as did Volvo on its B28F equipped vehicles.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[David T]

Be nice. *YOU* asked if EGR was B27F only -- Post #36:



I answered your question: Volvo definitely used EGR on B28F.

If you really don't want to know if EGR was B27F only, don't ask.

If you ask if EGR was B27F only, don't get mad when someone answers your question.

I included air injection because the two typically went hand in hand at the turn of the 80's. Mist cars with EGR also had smog pumps, as did Volvo on its B28F equipped vehicles.

Bill Robertson
#5939

For reference refer to Stainless Steel Illusion page 50 "Re-Engineering For Renault" for an explanation of what DMC had to do to get the motor approved by the US EPA. I suppose there were many different configurations they could have chosen, we have what we have for because of a lot of compromises. Getting WAY of topic here, if we are supposed to be talking about oil!
Another thing to add, because of the fuel injection when just about every other car was using a carburetor, the Delorean was a VERY clean running car in the early 80's. It didn't need EGR, PCV, air injection, and would have passed without the cat but it needed it because everyone else had to have one.

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it needed [catalytic converter] because everyone else had to have one.

Except Honda Civic of course (carbureted, thank you very much). Civic didn't get catalytic converters until 1984.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[David T]

Except Honda Civic of course (carbureted, thank you very much). Civic didn't get catalytic converters until 1984.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Actually it depends on what State you are talking about. Most States required a catalytic converter by 1981 (even on Honda Civics).

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CVCC engine met all 50 states' emissions without a catalytic converter. Straight 1200 did not. If you read period Civic advertisements they clearly state that only CVCC is available in California:

Bill Robertson
#5939