Bad squeaky sound, probably bent crank (3.0L)

[jangell]

About a month ago I took a break from my working on getting my 3.0L swap running to replace the entire A/C system with the help of a friend of mine (who is an actual mechanic, mostly working on classic cars). When it was time to fill the system, we tried cranking the engine and got this horrible squeaking sound. Our assumption was that the flex plate bolts or torque converter bolts were scraping against something. We confirmed the sounds related with every revolution of the engine by looking at the missing tooth gear on the crank pulley.

~10 second video of the noise: https://youtu.be/vvou5ZHh1tc

At one point, we looked up through the inspection hole in the automatic transmission and noticed that the flex plate is moving in and out, implying that it isn't seated correctly.

~6 second video of the wobble: https://youtu.be/9UqkfG25lPA

So we pulled the motor, leaving the transmission in the car (my friend is confident that it won't be that hard to reattach; I'd have pulled the engine and trans together, but hey). We checked the flex plate with calipers against a flat surface and found it to be pretty much perfectly flat. When we remounted the flex plate (which sat flush against the crank), we noticed it seemed slightly tilted, like the top was closer to the engine than the bottom.

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We tried turning the engine with a wrench, and got the same horrible squeaking sound, even without the flex plate attached. Measuring with calipers after rotation the engine in 60 degree increments seemed to find a deflection of about 0.26mm (not that I'd necessarily trust the measurements, but it fits with the very slight tilt of the flex plate).

At this point, we're assuming the crank is bent. How this happened is unclear.

This engine has never been running, not completely. I have turned it over by hand before putting it in the car (it was tough at spots, but that was just the engine compression -- our attempts today seemed much tougher than that). I had also cranked it with no issues. I had gotten the car to run very poorly with MegaSquirt for some initial testing (forgot to connect MAP, only two plugs were firing, timing way off, etc), but never heard this noise.

In fact, the noise only started after we replaced the A/C system. We did not turn the engine at all during that process. We raised and lowered the nose of the car, but that's all we did. It seems unlikely that we knocked something loose or out of alignment in the engine simply from that.

My friend assumes me that the untuned engine didn't bend the crank, as it is more likely that I'd have destroyed something else before the crank bent. He thinks the engine was overheated by the previous owner (it had 35k miles, according to the junkyard, and was working), and that this softened the metal enough to warp it slightly. But I can't explain why this noise suddenly started happening. I didn't think to look for flex plate deflection when I put everything together in the first place, so I don't know if this was present before.

Next weekend we'll likely tear down the engine, and I'll be hunting for a new 3.0L to install in its place. Luckily the amount of work here is only a small part of a 3.0L conversion, although obviously not a trivial amount of work. Hopefully it'll go fairly quickly.

Mostly I was wondering if anyone had seen this sort of thing before. It's very odd.

Thanks!

-- Joe

[DMC5180]

Remove the belt and turn the engine over. This should eliminate many items that could produce the sound you heard. The squeal screeching sure sounded like the belt was dragging across a frozen pulley. In the video i could not see the A/C pulley rotate due to the dark black paint.


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[jangell]

Remove the belt and turn the engine over. This should eliminate many items that could produce the sound you heard. The squeal screeching sure sounded like the belt was dragging across a frozen pulley. In the video i could not see the A/C pulley rotate due to the dark black paint.


The first video does have the belt still attached, but I removed it soon after to rule out the accessories (I was really, really hoping it was the belt). There’s a slight squeak from the alternator, so I got a new one, but the other very loud squeak is still present.

At this point, the engine is no longer in the car, has no accessories or the transmission hooked up, and it still makes the loud squeak when turned by hand.

My mechanic friend showed the second video to his boss, and they theorize that “it might likely have spun a bearing towards the rear of the engine and that's why that it's so hard to turn over by hand and that it has a slight wobble”. Possibly repairable, unless it damaged the crank or the block, in which case it’ll be cheaper just to get another 3.0L engine. We’ll be tearing it down this weekend, and then we’ll know how bad it is and how we’re moving forward.

Thanks

— Joe

[Josh]

I can confirm the alternator and crank pulley are good (parts I supplied). No such noises on the accessory drive with my 3.0

This is a really strange problem, best diagnosed through isolating and eliminating components as mentioned by Dennis.

[jangell]

Since we're down to "the engine is out of the car and is really hard to crank by hand with no accessories and still makes the squeaking sound", the next step will be tearing down the engine.

My current theory is that maybe I didn't properly tighten the main bearing nuts properly when I swapped out the lower crankcase (although I swear I did it to the specs in the manual -- I even got an angle torquer for the required extra 75 degrees), that one or more of these came loose and it's letting the crank shift. I'll know if there's permanent damage (and if that's even what happened) once I get it apart. I'll report back when I know more.

I was hoping to have it on the road in time for Ready Player One (no particular reason; just seemed like a good arbitrarily deadline), but that's pretty unlikely at the moment.

Thanks again

-- Joe

[sdg3205]

Did you reassemble everything with assembly lube?

[jangell]

I only disassembled the lower crankcase to swap it with the 2.8L one, and didn't go any further than that. I didn't touch the crank or pistons at all, so I didn't do anything with any lubricants.

That's not to say I did it correctly (to be honest, I'm a little surprised everything had been going as well as it has, considering I've never done this before), but I did follow the instructions in the 3.0L manuals as closely as possible. I've detailed what I did here: http://www.tmproductions.com/repairs-and-maintenance-blog/2014/7/6/reassembling-the-30l-lower-crankcase.

-- Joe

[Ron]

Bent Crankshaft: I don't see anything in the info that would lead me to believe the crank was bent enough to cause the amount of movement I'm seeing in the flywheel/converter. (That would be hard to do in any case.)

Bent Flexplate: In one of the links a screwdriver was being used to hold the flexplate while torquing it. Unlike a flywheel, a flexplate is prone to bend if the screwdriver is not held perpendicular to the mating plane. Hard to do...I'd bet it's bent

Noise: Wild guess- Thrust washer segment(s) or main bearing shifted/moved while removing the lower crankcase (or "foreign object", e.g. tool, replacement bolt too long, or cap flipped/out of order.)
Did you check for end play/float after re-assembly?

Yeah, this IS odd! Should be easy to spot though...

[dn010]

Are you sure you have engine / trans alignment dowels installed?

Edit: Scratch that, I just realized you said it was doing this even out of the car. My apologies! If you put the bearings in without any assembly lube then you'd have destroyed the bearings, same if you put the wrong bearings in the wrong places. I imagine you'll find out the issue as soon as you remove the lower CC.

[jangell]

Bent Crankshaft: I don't see anything in the info that would lead me to believe the crank was bent enough to cause the amount of movement I'm seeing in the flywheel/converter. (That would be hard to do in any case.)

That's what I've been thinking too; all the information I've been able to find suggests this is highly unlikely.


Bent Flexplate: In one of the links a screwdriver was being used to hold the flexplate while torquing it. Unlike a flywheel, a flexplate is prone to bend if the screwdriver is not held perpendicular to the mating plane. Hard to do...I'd bet it's bent

That was my initial assumption as well, that it was either bent or somehow incorrectly mounted. But we took it off and checked it and found no deflection. I actually do have a bent flex plate that I had to replace (I was worried about using heat to break the main crank nut free due to a poor understanding of how much of a heat sink the engine block is and that I wouldn't risk damaging anything), although there I bent it at where the screwdriver went through the hole. I do wonder if I could flatten it back out, but I'm not willing to try it.

But the replacement flex plate appears to be unbent.


Noise: Wild guess- Thrust washer segment(s) or main bearing shifted/moved while removing the lower crankcase (or "foreign object", e.g. tool, replacement bolt too long, or cap flipped/out of order.)

A foreign object is a possibility. I don't think I replaced any of the bolts here, but I did replace a lot of other ones, so it's possible I used the wrong length somewhere, or accidentally put a 2.8L bolt in instead of a 3.0L bolt. I'll be checking to see if anything has shifted as well.


Did you check for end play/float after re-assembly?

Not in any specific way, other than eyeballing it. Also, I had cranked the engine over after it was completely assembled, and I had it running (very, very poorly) in December and it was just fine. It was only after raising the car to do A/C work and lowering it again that it started doing this. Which means something must have have been just a TINY bit off.

I'll see what I find this weekend. Thanks!

-- Joe

[jangell]

Are you sure you have engine / trans alignment dowels installed?

Edit: Scratch that, I just realized you said it was doing this even out of the car. My apologies! If you put the bearings in without any assembly lube then you'd have destroyed the bearings, same if you put the wrong bearings in the wrong places. I imagine you'll find out the issue as soon as you remove the lower CC.

Ah. I had seen a lot of references to assembly lube when rebuilding the engine, but only if I got deeper than the lower crankcase, so I was able to ignore all of that. Now I know that it'll destroy the main bearings if I do get that far (I know it was bad, but not how specifically bad).

At this point I am wondering if I have destroyed the bearings anyway, though, given the noise and the misalignment. The engine has been turned over (by starter and by hand) maybe 40 times since this problem appeared, but I imagine that with the forces involved, just once was enough to wreck everything. I have no idea where to get new main bearings (no luck on RockAuto), assuming that this hasn't also damaged the block itself. Which means I might be getting a new engine either way -- but I won't jump to conclusions until I see inside the engine.

And I do have the alignment dowels in. :)

Thanks!

-- Joe

[jangell]

Ok, torn down the bottom of the engine today. We drained all the oil from the engine, proving that there was indeed oil in the engine (the dipstick showed it as full, too). We pulled oil pan and baffle, and eventually the lower crankcase.

The engine is bone dry. It's like it didn't even have oil in it. The implication is that the oil pump failed somehow. The chain appears to set up correctly (my mechanic friend confirmed this). We know there was plenty of oil in the engine. It simply wasn't getting circulated.

There's also a little "glitter" in the oil, which I'm told implies metal flakes from the dry engine turning. There are also gouges on the few main bearings that we removed.

So it looks like I'm in them market for a new 3.0L engine. Josh, you don't happen to have your old 3.0L sitting around after four years do you? Not that I'm sure what's involved getting it shipped from Canada to Massachusetts... :)

Attached are some pictures. The drained oil, baffle and pan are mostly to prove the engine really did have oil in it, in contrast to the completely dry crank shown in the other pictures. We looked into the oil filler and it was bone dry in the cams as well.

Thanks again for the help everyone. Now the question is, why would the pump fail like that? Although I guess it's academic now; the engine is pretty much junk at this point.

-- Joe

55679556785568055681556825568355684

[dn010]

Ok, torn down the bottom of the engine today. We drained all the oil from the engine, proving that there was indeed oil in the engine (the dipstick showed it as full, too). We pulled oil pan and baffle, and eventually the lower crankcase.

The engine is bone dry. It's like it didn't even have oil in it. The implication is that the oil pump failed somehow. The chain appears to set up correctly (my mechanic friend confirmed this). We know there was plenty of oil in the engine. It simply wasn't getting circulated.

There's also a little "glitter" in the oil, which I'm told implies metal flakes from the dry engine turning. There are also gouges on the few main bearings that we removed.

So it looks like I'm in them market for a new 3.0L engine. Josh, you don't happen to have your old 3.0L sitting around after four years do you? Not that I'm sure what's involved getting it shipped from Canada to Massachusetts... [emoji4]

Attached are some pictures. The drained oil, baffle and pan are mostly to prove the engine really did have oil in it, in contrast to the completely dry crank shown in the other pictures. We looked into the oil filler and it was bone dry in the cams as well.

Thanks again for the help everyone. Now the question is, why would the pump fail like that? Although I guess it's academic now; the engine is pretty much junk at this point.

-- Joe

55679556785568055681556825568355684

Some bad bearings doesn’t mean the engine is trashed. Did you remove the pump and disassemble to see what was happening? Pickup clogged? Pict of the cylinders from the bottom?


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[DMC5180]

So you swapped the girdle section from the 2.8L to the 3.0L. Did you also use the 2.8L oil pan? If yes, did you transfer the oil pickup tube and extension spacer from the 2.8 to the 3.0? This sets the oil pickup tube deeper in the oil pan. If you didn’t do this, your pickup may have been positioned above the Oil level.


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[David T]

So you swapped the girdle section from the 2.8L to the 3.0L. Did you also use the 2.8L oil pan? If yes, did you transfer the oil pickup tube and extension spacer from the 2.8 to the 3.0? This sets the oil pickup tube deeper in the oil pan. If you didn’t do this, your pickup may have been positioned above the Oil level.


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If the motor has not actually run you may only have damaged the bearings. Examine the crank and cylinders and you should be OK with new main and con rod bearings. Of course you must figure out why the oil pump isn't pumping oil. When you removed the oil did you measure how much came out?

[jangell]

So you swapped the girdle section from the 2.8L to the 3.0L. Did you also use the 2.8L oil pan? If yes, did you transfer the oil pickup tube and extension spacer from the 2.8 to the 3.0? This sets the oil pickup tube deeper in the oil pan. If you didn’t do this, your pickup may have been positioned above the Oil level.

That's an excellent question. I did indeed use the 2.8L oil pan, mostly because it seemed way nicer than the 3.0L one. When we disassembled the engine yesterday, we did take out a spacer, but I had to check the manuals to see if there was a spacer in the 3.0L and if I'd installed that instead (I don't actually remember if there was a spacer or not). As best I can tell, the 3.0L engine did not use a spacer, so I definitely installed the 2.8L spacer. I made sure to put in new O-rings, too. I also used the 2.8L oil baffle and inlet tube (the tube has one vs two mounting points, which made it obvious). Finally, all the lower crankcase parts that were removed were clearly submerged in oil, so they were definitely below the oil level.

-- Joe

[dn010]

That's an excellent question. I did indeed use the 2.8L oil pan, mostly because it seemed way nicer than the 3.0L one. When we disassembled the engine yesterday, we did take out a spacer, but I had to check the manuals to see if there was a spacer in the 3.0L and if I'd installed that instead (I don't actually remember if there was a spacer or not). As best I can tell, the 3.0L engine did not use a spacer, so I definitely installed the 2.8L spacer. I made sure to put in new O-rings, too. I also used the 2.8L oil baffle and inlet tube (the tube has one vs two mounting points, which made it obvious). Finally, all the lower crankcase parts that were removed were clearly submerged in oil, so they were definitely below the oil level.

-- Joe

Take the pump out and see if there is an issue with the gears or relief, if the spring is broken, etc. Run some oil passage cleaners through. Take the valve covers off and look at the camshafts, rotate the engine to look at the cylinders and piston skirts from the bottom. Get new bearings if everything looks good and put it back together, as said I doubt you’ve trashed the engine. It looked like you only just ‘wiped’ the bearings.


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[DMC5180]

That's an excellent question. I did indeed use the 2.8L oil pan, mostly because it seemed way nicer than the 3.0L one. When we disassembled the engine yesterday, we did take out a spacer, but I had to check the manuals to see if there was a spacer in the 3.0L and if I'd installed that instead (I don't actually remember if there was a spacer or not). As best I can tell, the 3.0L engine did not use a spacer, so I definitely installed the 2.8L spacer. I made sure to put in new O-rings, too. I also used the 2.8L oil baffle and inlet tube (the tube has one vs two mounting points, which made it obvious). Finally, all the lower crankcase parts that were removed were clearly submerged in oil, so they were definitely below the oil level.

-- Joe

The 3.0 did not use the spacer. But 2.8 does and needs it for the deeper pan. Glad you verified it was installed. That means it’s still a head scratcher as to why you didn’t have any oil pressure. Makes one wonder if there was blockage in the pickup circuit or a missing or worn-out component within the pump assembly. I wonder if the pressure relief valve is functioning properly. If, it was missing a component it may never build pressure.


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[jangell]

Some bad bearings doesn’t mean the engine is trashed. Did you remove the pump and disassemble to see what was happening? Pickup clogged? Pict of the cylinders from the bottom?


I have not removed the pump yet. That was the plan today, but before we took off the main pulley nut and the timing cover, we decided to oil up the engine and test for deflection at the flex pate again. Our logic was that if the crank is somehow bent, it doesn't really matter if the oil pump is working or not. After manually oiling the engine (removing the main bearing caps, pouring oil into the holes and on the surfaces, re-installing the lower crankcase piece to secure the bearings, and oiling the cams for good measure), we found it far easier to rotate by hand, as it should be.

I don't have a dial indicator (yet), so for a quick test we marked a piece of metal and placed it next to the rear take-off where the flex pate mounts (not sure what that's called) and rotated the engine. The mark appeared to be aligned with the edge of the take-off the entire time. We did a second test at a different point and it still seemed fine.

Then we put the flex plate on. Rotating the engine we could see it wobble in and out. We marked the high point and low point of the wobble, which oddly didn't seem to be opposite each other -- it was more like the high point was at a specific location about 60 degrees off from the low points (so imagine if a clock was bowed out a little bit at the 12 position, but got level again by 3 and stayed level through 9 before starting to bow again). This was a crude visual test.

I have a second flex plate -- the one where I put a screwdriver through the hole to keep the engine from rotating, which in turn bent it when I attempted to remain the main pulley nut. Since flex plates can only be installed in a specific orientation, we mounted that one as well and did the test again, and found the deflection appeared to be in the same place and in the same manner.

My guess is that this means one or more of the following:
- Both flex plates are bent in very similar ways. This seems highly unlikely.
- The crank is bent. This seems very hard to do, although we theorize that the engine may have been overheated routinely before I got it, and running it hot for a prolonged period of time could have slightly warped it. But it still seems very unlikely, especially with the specifically-placed deflection we're seeing.
- The spacers/shims/whatever-they're-called that sit on either side of the flex plate are misshapen. They don't look misshapen, and the bolts appeared to be flush when installed, so this doesn't seem likely either.

I'm out of ideas about what is causing this. My friend is taking both flex plates and the shims to see if they really are flat. We're also going to get a dial indicator to confirm that the end of the crank really is flat and level, just to be sure.

I should also mention that I never tested the alignment of the flex plate before I put the engine in the car. The squealing from the complete lack of oil was the only reason we looked at the inspection hole in the transmission and noticed that problem.

-- Joe

[dn010]

I have two cranks if you need one...


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[jangell]

If the motor has not actually run you may only have damaged the bearings. Examine the crank and cylinders and you should be OK with new main and con rod bearings. Of course you must figure out why the oil pump isn't pumping oil. When you removed the oil did you measure how much came out?

I admit I assumed that I wasn't going to be able to find bearings for this engine and would just have to replace the whole thing (gaskets are easy to find, though), but a quick check of NAPA's site showed that they are indeed available (~$90 for the set of main bearings, and ~$8 for each con rod bearing), so that's good news. That will save a lot of trouble over having to get a new motor. I want to get this deflection issue sorted before I replace the bearings, though. And as you said, this is all moot if the oil pump doesn't work, so I'll be taking that out once the deflection is solved.

I didn't measure the amount of oil, but I still have it all in the pan that I drained it into. I'm betting it's all the oil in the system. There's a picture of that oil in another post, which is mostly filling an 8 qt pan. I can empty it into bottles to test it (or maybe I can measure it with a scale...).

Thanks!

-- Joe

[jangell]

Take the pump out and see if there is an issue with the gears or relief, if the spring is broken, etc. Run some oil passage cleaners through. Take the valve covers off and look at the camshafts, rotate the engine to look at the cylinders and piston skirts from the bottom. Get new bearings if everything looks good and put it back together, as said I doubt you’ve trashed the engine. It looked like you only just ‘wiped’ the bearings.

I'm thinking you're right that this engine can be saved. I saw that I can get a new oil pump at NAPA for about $140 or so, or a rebuild kit for $40, so I'll probably do the rebuild. My friend and I will be sure to go over everything as you describe it. Thanks!

-- Joe

[jangell]

The 3.0 did not use the spacer. But 2.8 does and needs it for the deeper pan. Glad you verified it was installed. That means it’s still a head scratcher as to why you didn’t have any oil pressure. Makes one wonder if there was blockage in the pickup circuit or a missing or worn-out component within the pump assembly. I wonder if the pressure relief valve is functioning properly. If, it was missing a component it may never build pressure.

We had intended to poor oil into the pump today and then crank the engine and watch it spray everywhere (or do nothing), but the flex plate deflection occupied our time. Once we have the timing cover off we'll check all the passages for blockages, and check the pump itself. Thanks!

I did take apart the 2.8L pump (mostly I was using the old engine to get a better understanding of how everything works by disassembling the whole thing), but I don't think I took apart the 3.0L. Which at least means that I don't think _I_ broke it. :).

-- Joe

[dn010]

The original 2.8 and 3.0 pumps are different, they cannot be interchanged unfortunately. Majority of the pumps I’ve taken apart had damaged relief springs.


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[jangell]

I have two cranks if you need one...

Sweet -- I may well take you up on that. I get the impression that there is no practical way for me to tell if the crank is really bent/damaged without taking it a machine shop. If I've ruled out all the other possible reasons that the flex plate is wobbling, it seems I may have to resort to replacing the crank.

Thanks!

-- Joe

[jangell]

The original 2.8 and 3.0 pumps are different, they cannot be interchanged.

Good to know. I disassembled the 2.8L pump to learn; I don't think I actually have it anymore. I mostly don't recall if I took the 3.0L one apart; I don't think there was any need to, so I don't think I did. But that just means that it might have always been broken.

-- Joe

[jangell]

One last thing -- it'll be 3 weeks before I can do anything on this again (out next week, easter weekend trip the next week). Then I'll do the dial indicator test on the hub, and then we'll likely remove the timing cover and test the oil pump.

Thanks again for the help everyone!

-- Joe

[Ron]

There are also gouges on the few main bearings that we removed.

55680

Does the main journal mated to the bearing pictured above have scars on one edge only like this bearing?
If so, is the crank scared all the way around?

Bad pump/lubrication or not, it looks REALLY dry...

[jangell]

Does the main journal mated to the bearing pictured above have scars on one edge only like this bearing?
If so, is the crank scared all the way around?

So far it looks like only the bearings were damaged, and the itself crank doesn't have any marks, but we didn't check the other side, so we're not totally sure about the other side yet. That particular bearing was the worst of them, if I remember correctly. My friend thought it looked like the damage was only to be bearings (he was doing most of the work here, as he knows a lot more about engines than I).

My friend says: "The front one had that marking on it, but I was able to start scratching it off with my fingernail so it wasn't impregnated into the metal itself -- it was just right at that the material from the bearing was rubbing off on it, but if it had gone any longer it would've started digging into the metal so we got it before damaged it." Said friend is a classic car mechanic, but not specifically a DeLorean mechanic (he's more of an Alfa Romeo guy).

I'll get pictures of all the bearings and the crank next time we take it apart (so, in about 3 weeks).


Bad pump/lubrication or not, it looks REALLY dry...

That's an understatement -- even in person, it looks like it never had oil in it, even though the pan was full. Definitely looks like a pump failure. I think it was almost two years since I put oil in it, and then it sat for quite a while as I figured out what to do about an exhaust, and installed the new fuel system and electrical, which I guess was plenty of time for all the oil to drain into the pan.

Thanks!

-- Joe

[dn010]

I'm assuming you didn't see if there was any pressure on the gauge while cranking the engine? My bet would be the pump's pressure relief spring is broken and the valve is stuck open. There is really nothing else that can go wrong with the pump, unless you have clogged passages. The pump is basically just two gears and then the valve. Luckily, you CAN use the spring from the 2.8 if the 3.0 spring is indeed broken, as long as the 2.8 spring isn't broken as well.

Check it out next time you see the engine. Good luck!

[jangell]

I have an update on the flex plate. My friend was able to mount it on a tire balancer, and recorded this video showing it wobbling. This suggests pretty strongly that the flex plate itself is bent.


https://youtu.be/Zo2_0gSt0cs (in case that doesn't embed: https://youtu.be/Zo2_0gSt0cs )

So it looks like I'm in the market for a new flex plate again ($400 for NOS from DMC, it seems). My friend only tested the one, but the fact that both plates were wobbling in the same way on the engine concerns me a little. I'm not really sure how it would have gotten bent, or if I have to worry that, say, the torque converter is somehow damaging it. Obviously I don't want to get a new one just to have it bend again.

Thanks again. We'll be checking the oil pump out on Sunday morning. I hope to order all the new parts on Monday for installation next weekend.

-- Joe

[Ron]

$.02
The converter itself would be low in my list.
I'd more suspect using the flexplate to hold the crank during dis/reassembly or a clearance problem while separating/joining the engine-trans.

[jangell]

I may well have damaged something during installation. I don’t think I tried to tighten the main crank nut with this flex plate (I did that with the other, and bent it), but this was a (supposedly good) used one, and I may have still screwed something up. My much more experienced friend will be installing the new one when I get it.

Thanks

— Joe

[jangell]

The end of the crank has about 1/10000th of an inch variance in our dial indicator test, so it looks like I'm good there -- it's just the flex plate that's bent. I just need new bearings, and an oil pump rebuild kit (it probably is the spring; unfortunately, I don't have the old 2.8L oil pump anymore, so I can't salvage the spring from that).

I thought I had found the main bearings and oil pump kit on NAPA's site, but it turns out they don't have a way to filter by engine, so I was looking at 2.5L parts, not 3.0L parts. My other searches for these parts haven't come up with anything useful.

Does anyone where where I can buy main bearings, connecting rod bearings, and oil pump parts for the 3.0L engine? At worst, I'll have to get another entire engine and combine the good parts from the two to get one working engine, but if I can just get the parts I need it'll be a lot easier and cheaper.

Thanks!

-- Joe

[dn010]

Are the gears shot or do you just need a spring? I think I have a pump or two worth of parts, just no springs!

[jangell]

I think the gears are OK, but I don't really know what I'm looking at. :) There are some marks on the metal behind where the gears sit, but they seem fine otherwise.

55901 55903

There's a slight amount of play on the shaft that the sprocket attaches to the water pump, but I don't think that's a problem.


https://youtu.be/PiU-FduAdeY
Video of play: https://youtu.be/PiU-FduAdeY

I'm going to swing by the garage tomorrow morning and take a look at the spring itself, just to make sure it's really bad. I'm going to pull some of the main bearings and many some connecting rod bearings to see how badly they're scraped, and if there are any identifying marks on them that I can use for a cross reference. I'm also going to see how close the 2.8L bearings are, since DMC sells everything I'd need, if they'll fit in the 3.0L. I think I still have some of the old 2.8L bearings in box that I keep meaning to send off to recycling, but never get around to. I'm not sure if the even fire/odd fire difference between the engines and the larger displacement and other factors rule out using 2.8L parts, but it'll be pretty obvious if they're the wrong size once I get in there.

Thanks!

-- Joe

[jangell]

A couple of updates:

It seems the 2.8L main bearings fit perfectly in the 3.0L engine. I had exactly one main bearing left over from when I tore down the 2.8L, and it seems to be an exact width, thickness and radius match for the 3.0L. It fits perfectly in the 3.0L carrier, too. Makes sense -- why engineer new bearings just to increase the bore size? There's a small notch on the 3.0L bearings, but I can't imagine that would matter here.

The only possible issue might be if the split journals on the the 3.0L crank (to make it even fire) affect the size of the connecting rods, but if they used the same connecting rods it's not a problem. In fact, now I'm wondering if you can put the 3.0L crank in a 2.8L engine to make an even-fire 2.8L. Unfortunately, I don't have any 2.8L connecting rod bearings to test, but it seems likely they used the same ones here as well.

I also got some numbers off the 3.0L bearings. Unfortunately, they seem to be serial numbers, since they're different on different bearings (E267265 vs E266219).

2.8L bearing on the left in the picture (the dirtier one -- it was in a box of things to be recycled, so I wasn't concerned about keeping it clean for installation). the last pictures shows the 2.8L bearing in the 3.0L carrier.

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I also took apart the oil pump. The spring looks just fine, so I don't think that's the problem. The piston inside of it doesn't move all that freely, though. I had to tap it against the table a few times before it fell out. I'm wondering if it's simply supposed to move more smoothly, and that cleaning the bore will fix it up. My mechanic friend has experience with this and should be able to take care of that this coming weekend, assuming that is the problem.

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Thanks again everyone!

-- Joe

[jangell]

The original 2.8 and 3.0 pumps are different, they cannot be interchanged unfortunately. Majority of the pumps I’ve taken apart had damaged relief springs.

Well... crap.

I was going through my website to re-familiarize myself with how to re-assemble of the engine, and noticed that I have some comment about breaking a bolt on the oil pump, and not being able to get the broken bolt out. Since the 2.8L pump looked identical to the 3.0L pump, I simply installed that.

So I'm guessing that's the problem.

I'm curious what makes the 2.8L and 3.0L pumps different. They look identical and mount up identically. I found an old picture I took of the two of them side by side. Of course that says nothing of the internals.

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So... anyone have a 3.0L oil pump they'd like to sell me?

-- Joe

[dn010]

Well... crap.

I was going through my website to re-familiarize myself with how to re-assemble of the engine, and noticed that I have some comment about breaking a bolt on the oil pump, and not being able to get the broken bolt out. Since the 2.8L pump looked identical to the 3.0L pump, I simply installed that.

So I'm guessing that's the problem.

I'm curious what makes the 2.8L and 3.0L pumps different. They look identical and mount up identically. I found an old picture I took of the two of them side by side. Of course that says nothing of the internals.

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So... anyone have a 3.0L oil pump they'd like to sell me?

-- Joe

The gears are different length . If you used the original D pump, I have there correct gears for you.


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[jangell]

I didn't change the gears at all. I'll gladly buy those gears from you!

-- Joe

[dn010]

I didn't change the gears at all. I'll gladly buy those gears from you!

-- Joe

Give me a few minutes and I’ll find the pump and take a photo.


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[dn010]

Give me a few minutes and I’ll find the pump and take a photo.


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Took longer to find than I had hoped. Here is the measurement (1 7/16). As you can see, both gears are the same length on this pump. The original D pump has a shorter gear on the pump body. This is your problem. The gears I have in the photo have surface rust but otherwise good. I have another pump somewhere but I won’t be able to find it until this weekend.

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[jangell]

Here's a shot of my 2.8L pump's gear. It seems to not be much shorter -- 1 3/16". I'm sort of surprised that such a small difference would matter, since it's only 15% shorter and you'd think there'd be enough contact area along the rest of the gear, but obviously more would be better. I have no problem putting in the right gear.

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-- Joe

[jangell]

I followed up in another thread, but the short version is that replacing the main bearings and using the proper oil pump seems to have fixed the problem, and I'm back to trying to get this thing tuned again. Thanks everyone!

-- Joe