General Official VR6 Mated to 997 5 Speed Tiptronic Swap [Archive] - DMCTalk Forum

81dmc

06-29-2018, 12:45 AM

Thought I'd make a new thread to have a clean start...

Update 1: Engine and transmission are out of car.
57057 Goodbye Kjet!

Will soon create a thread in the for sale section as I part out all that is not needed...

Also have ordered a 2.8 VR6 12V out of a 2001 VW Golf. I will be rebuilding it when I receive it. Will shoot for 400hp with a turbo, but we'll see where I get...
5705857059

Will be purchasing this beauty soon. 57060
It is the automatic tiptronic out of a Porsche 997 Carrera. It is a Mercedes built unit, and it is part of the 722.6xx family. This allows me to use a controller designed by http://ofgear.dk that doesn't require connection to the ecm.

Guess I'll be the 3rd VR6 swap? :headbang:

BTW, LS swaps are just SO overrated.:tongue_stick:

Nicholas R

06-29-2018, 07:43 AM

I'm just going to go ahead and forgo a response to the LS comment :wink:

This looks like an awesome build. I'm excited at the prospect of you building the first automatic transmission-swapped car. To my knowledge, there haven't been any automatic transmission swapped cars that can still function as a true automatic. The only one I know that comes close is the Rover V8 engine'd time machine that has a tiptronic transmission, but I believe that it still has to be shifted manually.

The only question I have right now is regarding the transmission size. That transmission looks to be pretty long, and pretty wide (especially at the end). Have you had the chance to measure everything out to be sure it will fit? (these dimensions are the main things that myself, Josh, etc. have been constantly fighting) My concern is making sure the end will fit as it gets farther and farther into the "v" portion of the frame. You can always start modifying the frame, I'm just curious what you're already planning for.

Either way, best of luck, and keep the updates coming! :thumbup: :wrenchin:

81dmc

06-29-2018, 10:11 AM

opethmike

06-29-2018, 09:27 PM

I dunno, I found that my LS fits the chassis pretty well. It really doesn't look out of place. That said, it's really cool to see such an unusual swap being done.

81dmc

07-01-2018, 01:54 AM

I've decided to use the cheaper Microsquirt system to control the VR6 using batch injection and the Ford EDIS coil pack. The microsquirt should integrate nicely with my Dakota Digital dash using their special BIM module for megasquirt controllers.

Anyways, I will need to learn more about gasoline tuning since I've only tuned common rail turbo diesels.:hmm:

81dmc

07-02-2018, 10:19 PM

Scratching the standalone edis and microsquirt idea. With more research, I realized it would be more trouble than its worth to add an unnecessary 36-1 crank wheel to my setup.

In light of that, I'll be shelling out the $$ for the MS3 Pro Evo. And unlike the microsquirt, this unit allows me to use both an idle control actuator AND an electronic wastegate solenoid. I'll be using the built in bosch 60-2 crank wheel to time my spark with the ms3 pro.

IMHO, it's kind of unnecessary to use sequential injection, so I'll be using batch injection, but I'm still deciding whether I want to run a wasted spark or coil on plug sequential...

Transmission shifter has been chosen and purchased. It is a unit out of a 1997 Mercedes W202, and will talk directly to the control unit from ofgear.dk 57112

Ras12

07-02-2018, 10:59 PM

Anyways, I will need to learn more about gasoline tuning since I've only tuned common rail turbo diesels.:hmm:

Why not do a Turbo Diesel swap? You have the knowledge and you will definitely be the 1st. It would be totally badass!

81dmc

07-02-2018, 11:17 PM

Why not do a Turbo Diesel swap? You have the knowledge and you will definitely be the 1st. It would be totally badass!

Believe me, I would love to, but then 400hp would be pipe dream, at least with an I4. Don't know of any I6 that will fit...

Anyways, the lift pump would have to be changed, the tank dropped, and the fuel inlet would have to be changed (diesel pumps have a wider spout). It's just not practical IMHO.

I specifically chose the VR6 because of its very compact design with the simplicity of a single head. It also is a very strong cast iron motor that is more than capable of 700hp if upgraded correctly. So, more room to grow.:cool:

Also, my cluster says "unleaded fuel only"... would hate to have a nice cluster that is wrong.

Josh

07-04-2018, 01:48 PM

The length if fine, but if the width becomes a problem, I will just have to notch out and extend the frame rail on the passenger side. There is actually quite a bit of clearance between the frame and the tub for that type of mod. In any case, hopefully it fits without any frame modifications.

Also, I love LS DeLoreans, but IMHO, the LS is just a tad to big for the tiny DeLorean chassis. :cheers:

When properly completed, the LS(4) fits very well into the delorean chassis. Most maintenance and accessability is just as easy or easier than with the PRV.

Like I mentioned before, you are most certainly going to have to make some fairly frame modifications with that humongous transmission and retaining a reasonable driveshaft angle. I have the 6spd version sitting in a frame in my garage, it is a tight fit. That side differential shaft is going to give you problems.

EDIT, I looked at the picture of the transmission again. I am 100% confident it is not fitting in the delorean frame. That rear "transfer case" is much too large to fit where the frame funnels in. I am not trying to be a "hater" just passing some experience on to you.

Josh

07-04-2018, 01:53 PM

6sp G96 mocked up in the delorean frame.

https://i.imgur.com/jIoWHgB.jpg

81dmc

07-04-2018, 05:42 PM

6sp G96 mocked up in the delorean frame.

https://i.imgur.com/jIoWHgB.jpg

I'm not going to use an additional adapter plate that would push the transaxle forward. Instead, I'll be replacing the adapter plate Porsche already used for that transmission.

In the end, I'll have to see how much clearance there is between the axles and the cradle. If necessary, I could end up pushing the entire engine and trans assembly rearward...

Josh

07-04-2018, 07:41 PM

I'm not going to use an additional adapter plate that would push the transaxle forward. Instead, I'll be replacing the adapter plate Porsche already used for that transmission.

In the end, I'll have to see how much clearance there is between the axles and the cradle. If necessary, I could end up pushing the entire engine and trans assembly rearward...

You're going to have to have to push it much more forward than the thickness of the adapter (1.5") to clear that transmission, and even then...

Just looking at the size of this the transmission. If you pushed everything 4 inches or so rearward, the transfer case at the end of the transmission is still going to be scraping the inside of the trailing arm.

I have had my hand in engine swapping several deloreans and explored the options of many different transaxles and I am telling you this will not fit without some pretty serious frame modifications. To the point it is not worth it (in my opinion).

81dmc

07-10-2018, 11:34 PM

Got the engine today!

Still wrapped and on the pallet.
57264
(Tire's a great choice huh?:rolleyes1:)

Will rebuild head and replace timing chains for sure. Will also pull crank and pistons to mic everything. Hopefully all checks out good.

81dmc

07-17-2018, 06:50 PM

Picked up transmission today in Jacksonville...

57387

81dmc

07-21-2018, 10:45 PM

57437

Honing marks are still faintly visible on the cylinder walls where the rings ride. Bare in mind, this is an engine that saw just under 200k...
57439

I will be removing springs and valves from head and will be sending it out to be decked and hot tanked. After that is said and done, I will be installing Ferrea valves and new 262 cams as the stockers are pitted.
57440

Tired stock pistons and rods will be tossed. New ones will be higher strength, and the pistons will have a CR of 8:1 (Final CR is 8.5:1 because I'm using the MK4 MLS headgasket).

Will post again when more progress is made.

Henrik

02-08-2019, 10:24 PM

Hey Rodolfo - how is the VR6 swap going?

81dmc

02-08-2019, 10:45 PM

Hey Rodolfo - how is the VR6 swap going?

Just got my engine back from the machine shop, and just bought a 1982 Mercedes 300SD Diesel. So not much progress.

Will be building it soon using wossner 8.5:1 pistons and forged rods, but I'm going to take my sweet time with it.

For fitment, I've measured as much as possible and have determined the tiptronic should fit. If needed, I'll notch the frame as the transaxle has a couple awkward corners. I have an audi bell to vr5 adapter plate that will mostly bolt to the 997 bellhousing. I'll just have to find a way to adapt the torque convertor to the flexplate. I'm thinking a pilot adapter and adapter ring sandwiched between torque converter and flexplate....

In any case I'll start updating when I gain some speed on this project.

Henrik

02-10-2019, 11:52 PM

Just got my engine back from the machine shop, .... So not much progress.

That IS progress :)

I am sure you are aware of the SEO Motorsports / Delorean03 (Jeremiah) VR6 swap with a D automatic (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?7884-Turbo-VR6-DeLorean&p=116081&viewfull=1#post116081). IIRC not long after the swap Jeremiah started making plans for a beefed up auto D tranny and not long thereafter I believe he shifted (no pun intended) to manual transmission, like me. He may have some insight on VR6s + automatics.

81dmc

02-11-2019, 12:10 AM

Henrik

02-11-2019, 09:54 AM

If I run into issues, I'll check if he has any insight.

BTW, your dyno video pushed me to buy the VR6!:) I love just how nice Ed was able to get your car.

Now I wonder how much I can get for the stock automatic...

Yep - my VR6 engine swap was a total success. I get e-mails asking about Ed quite often so there is definitely a demand for his talent. I sold my stock auto for $1,000.

DeLorean03

02-20-2019, 01:10 AM

That IS progress :)

I am sure you are aware of the SEO Motorsports / Delorean03 (Jeremiah) VR6 swap with a D automatic (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?7884-Turbo-VR6-DeLorean&p=116081&viewfull=1#post116081). IIRC not long after the swap Jeremiah started making plans for a beefed up auto D tranny and not long thereafter I believe he shifted (no pun intended) to manual transmission, like me. He may have some insight on VR6s + automatics.

Yeah heres my advice on that: don't. Complete waste of time. The stock auto trans started slipping clutches at about 8 PSI. Even at 5 PSI, it was just a matter of time.

You are correct. We are about to pull the auto trans out and put the 5 speed in this weekend. We being HillBillyDMC here and myself. We did all the 5 speed upgrades that you did, Henrik. Some suspension upgrades too to include the billet aluminum LCAs and polyurethane bushings from DMCNW. I wont derail this thread anymore than that.

I do have a completely unused master gasket kit for the 3 speed auto by a company named Aldo they sell kits that are on par with modern GM transmission components. Once we did that to my auto trans, one of the metal pressure drums cracked, and that was it for me. Converting to 5 speed manual and never looking back. We guesstimate one more month and itll be ready for a test drive. That is, if we dont have any "oh shit" moments.....

81dmc

02-20-2019, 01:40 AM

Yeah heres my advice on that: don't. Complete waste of time. The stock auto trans started slipping clutches at about 8 PSI. Even at 5 PSI, it was just a matter of time.

You are correct. We are about to pull the auto trans out and put the 5 speed in this weekend. We being HillBillyDMC here and myself. We did all the 5 speed upgrades that you did, Henrik. Some suspension upgrades too to include the billet aluminum LCAs and polyurethane bushings from DMCNW. I wont derail this thread anymore than that.

I do have a completely unused master gasket kit for the 3 speed auto by a company named Aldo they sell kits that are on par with modern GM transmission components. Once we did that to my auto trans, one of the metal pressure drums cracked, and that was it for me. Converting to 5 speed manual and never looking back. We guesstimate one more month and itll be ready for a test drive. That is, if we dont have any "oh shit" moments.....

TBH, I never thought of putting the stock auto behind anything with more power. That's just asking for trouble! Anyways, good luck with the manual swap.:)

I'm going to do some assembly on my engine soon ("soon" seems like never for me:p). So hopefully I can get to it and make plans to adapt the flex plate to the convertor.

Bob635

03-20-2019, 06:16 PM

Rodolfo,

I put the 4HP22E Porsche trans in the 97 Delorean Time Machine over 20 years. Had to build my own controller.

I am doing this conversion again in the Iron Man Delorean with 5.0L Aluminum V8.

What your D needs is full size power windows. I put these in the 2015 electric D, the 97 D Time machine and now the Iron Man Delorean.

Bob

81dmc

03-20-2019, 09:15 PM

I put the 4HP22E Porsche trans in the 97 Delorean Time Machine over 20 years. Had to build my own controller.

I am doing this conversion again in the Iron Man Delorean with 5.0L Aluminum V8.

Looks like the 4hp22 has a similar setup to my mercedes built 772.6. You could use a 722.6 in your swap as well, and there is a controller already made for it...

What your D needs is full size power windows.

I'm hooked if they use real glass. Plexi is a no go for me haha.

Farrar

03-20-2019, 11:39 PM

Looks like the 4hp22 has a similar setup to my mercedes built 772.6.

I'm curious to know more about this... Is there a thread on your transmission?

Bob635

03-23-2019, 10:34 AM

Rodolfo,

I too would prefer real glass, but at $50,000 a car for custom glass, I decided on Lexan. Lexan is polycarbonate with an embedded
silicone hardening layer on the outside surfaces. This is the same material required for the windshields in race car. I figured if its good
enough for cars going 250 MPH, it's probably OK.

After over 20 years in the 97 Delorean Time machine, they still are great.

Just finished installing the passenger door mirror with the LED turn signals. I have decided to use all the extra wires in the doors for
a new speaker and get rid of the ones in the dash.

Bob

Nicholas R

03-25-2019, 10:50 AM

Rodolfo,

What your D needs is full size power windows. I put these in the 2015 electric D, the 97 D Time machine and now the Iron Man Delorean.

Bob

I just have to ask, are you ever planning to sell a kit or something for these at any point? You've been stating for years that this is an upgrade that people need in their cars. If I recall correctly, I saw your car at DCS 2004 with these and was enamored with them. I even expressed interest in doing the modification 10 years ago, but to my knowledge this is not something you've ever actually sold. Are you planning to make it available?

Bob635

03-25-2019, 11:08 AM

I just have to ask, are you ever planning to sell a kit or something for these at any point? You've been stating for years that this is an upgrade that people need in their cars. If I recall correctly, I saw your car at DCS 2004 with these and was enamored with them. I even expressed interest in doing the modification 10 years ago, but to my knowledge this is not something you've ever actually sold. Are you planning to make it available?

I considered doing this about 15 years ago. I posted to get a request of people who would want to buy a kit. If I got 10 people to commit it would have made it economically viable. However, no one was willing to commit. Unfortunately, these are all custom parts and consequently quite expensive. Custom H channel, customs aluminum bending, powder coating, custom Lexan windows, custom motors, etc. Parts cost >$3000

I did make enough parts to convert 3 cars, back then. Mainly for my cars, and possibly to sell one. Two of these are now in the 2015 Electric Delorean and the Iron Man Delorean. The other is in a display door, that people can try at Delorean Weekend.

I am considering selling the display doors in the near future. Whom ever buys them, will either have to disassemble them and install them in their car or swap doors. The SS on the doors needs straightening.

Unfortunately, the owner of the shop that made the Lexan windows (and race car windshields) has retired. I'm sure there is another firm that could do this.

I made a video of how to install these windows. It is on the delorean weekend website. It is about 45 minutes long.

Timeless

04-18-2019, 11:07 AM

Any updates?

81dmc

04-18-2019, 11:20 AM

Any updates?

Well, I mocked the tiptronic in the frame. I'll have to notch the frame to allow for more clearance, but thats on hold until after a wedding I have to attend on May 4th. I'll just make a triangular notch below the trailing arm mount, bend that triangle out, and weld additional pieces to bridge it. Just have to decide whether I should buy a stick or MIG welder...

The engine is ready to assemble too. Only thing I've been fretting is aligning the trans to the engine. I'll have to do that on a day I'm free and focused enough to properly map the measurements. Not knowing CAD makes things a bit more challenging for me...

Josh

04-18-2019, 06:01 PM

Well, I mocked the tiptronic in the frame. I'll have to notch the frame to allow for more clearance, but thats on hold until after a wedding I have to attend on May 4th. I'll just make a triangular notch below the trailing arm mount, bend that triangle out, and weld additional pieces to bridge it. Just have to decide whether I should buy a stick or MIG welder...

The engine is ready to assemble too. Only thing I've been fretting is aligning the trans to the engine. I'll have to do that on a day I'm free and focused enough to properly map the measurements. Not knowing CAD makes things a bit more challenging for me...

Interested to see pictures of the mockup.

FOr welding the frame, and most other hobby projects it is recommended to get a MIG welder. Welding 16ga sheet metal with an arc welder is damn near impossible.

81dmc

04-18-2019, 09:06 PM

Interested to see pictures of the mockup.

FOr welding the frame, and most other hobby projects it is recommended to get a MIG welder. Welding 16ga sheet metal with an arc welder is damn near impossible.

Mockup was only temporary as I did not want to leave the tranmission down there. The pan is a sideways pan, so it's hard to stabilize the damn thing.

Also, yeah I was definitely leaning towards MIG. I've welded before, but it was for fun, and didn't look very pretty. I'm going to have to practice a bit before I'm ready to weld on the delorean...

As a side note, I'll be receiving my MS3 Pro Evo with 8' harness. I wish I could find a base tune for the vr6. Oh well, I'll probably bring the car to a professional VW tuner with a dynamometer. I have 0 experience with gas tuning. Now if it was diesel, then I'd be all set...

DeLorean03

04-18-2019, 09:19 PM

As a side note, I'll be receiving my MS3 Pro Evo with 8' harness. I wish I could find a base tune for the vr6. Oh well, I'll probably bring the car to a professional VW tuner with a dynamometer. I have 0 experience with gas tuning. Now if it was diesel, then I'd be all set...

Ping Henrik on here. He has MS3 Pro. His base file may help you. I am running MS3, which is a different CPU, and I'd hate to give you my file only for it to fry your cpu/cause inadvertent damage to something.

81dmc

04-19-2019, 08:45 AM

5974859749

It's a monster, but it will fit nicely once the frame is notched under the right trailing arm mount. Plenty of clearance available for cv axles.

Timeless

04-20-2019, 10:53 AM

As a side note, I'll be receiving my MS3 Pro Evo with 8' harness. I wish I could find a base tune for the vr6. Oh well, I'll probably bring the car to a professional VW tuner with a dynamometer. I have 0 experience with gas tuning. Now if it was diesel, then I'd be all set...
Forgive me if I didnt see this posted but are you doing this project in TX or Naples? If Naples I know a tuner with a dyno in Ft. Myers.

81dmc

04-20-2019, 11:04 AM

Forgive me if I didnt see this posted but are you doing this project in TX or Naples? If Naples I know a tuner with a dyno in Ft. Myers.

I removed the prv in Texas, but I'm currently doing the rest in Naples.

You can go ahead and post or PM his info if you want.

Timeless

04-21-2019, 11:11 AM

I removed the prv in Texas, but I'm currently doing the rest in Naples.

You can go ahead and post or PM his info if you want.
I live in Naples. I would love to see the project! PM incoming....

Henrik

11-17-2023, 03:49 PM

Ping Henrik on here. He has MS3 Pro. His base file may help you. I am running MS3, which is a different CPU, and I'd hate to give you my file only for it to fry your cpu/cause inadvertent damage to something.

What happened Rodolfo? OH NO.... you were going to a wedding and then the updates stopped.... it all makes sense now :)

Seriously, are there any updates on the VR6 swap?

4+ years later... I would be more than happy to share my MS3-Pro file. Just PM me with your email.

81dmc

11-17-2023, 03:55 PM

What happened Rodolfo? OH NO.... you were going to a wedding and then the updates stopped.... it all makes sense now :)

Seriously, are there any updates on the VR6 swap?

4+ years later... I would be more than happy to share my MS3-Pro file. Just PM me with your email.

Wasn't feasible as transmission required frame mods, and the only welder I knew to trust for such a task passed away.

With that said, I have since converted to manual, so the swap is back on table for the future :). I also pre wired the MS3 Pro for future upgrades :D. Now I just need to somehow make an adapter plate to UN1.

I still have the parts to build a 12v have the cylinder head, low comp pistons, rings, H beam rods, chains etc. need a block, crank, and cam is all.