What is the “easiest” engine swap thats most reliable to most HP?

[Redsquall]

Curious what the opinions are
thanks!

[David T]

No engine swaps are easy. If you want more power consider DMC's Stage I and II, an Island Turbo or the BAE Turbo kits. All of these are close to bolt on and will get you the most power for the least bucks.

[jangell]

I'm certainly no expert (and hopefully someone will correct my mistakes/assumptions); apologies if you already know this stuff:

I believe the "easiest" swap (in a relative sense; none of them are exactly trivial) is the 160 HP 3.0L PRV from a 1989-1992 Dodge Monaco/Eagle Premier.

It's "easy" because after you swap the lower crankcase for the one in the 2.8L, it sits in the correct place in the engine bay. It also mounts directly to the DeLorean transmission just like the 2.8L does. The rest of the swap will be the same for any engine (new fuel system, new ignition system, updated vacuum routing, updated electrical, etc). MegaSquirt-based EFI with Ford EDIS ignition control seems to be the most popular way to go, and is the best documented, although you'll still be doing a lot of reading/research.

The trick with other engines appears to be twofold:

First you have to figure out how to get the engine positioned correctly in the engine bay. That probably involves welding up a kind of subframe adaptor that provides a bridge between the stock engine mount location and the mounting points on the engine.

Second, you need to figure out how to mate the engine and transmission. This means that you need at a minimum an adaptor plate between the transmission bell housing and the engine block, which you will likely have to have made as a on-off. This must be precisely aligned so that the shafts are perfectly coaxial. And then you have to figure out how to mate the transmission shaft to the engine shaft, which may not be trivial due to the differences in spline designs, and may require that an adaptor be built. There don't seem to be a lot of off-the-shelf parts to connect the DMC transmissions to other engines, so this seems to be the biggest hurdle to overcome.

After that, it should be basically the same work as doing a 3.0L swap. I've just (finally) finished a 3.0L swap, and sort of want to do an LS swap (I mean, once you've swapped one engine, you've already done the bulk of the hard work), but getting the transmission hooked up is something that I don't even know where to begin. By comparison, very little fabrication is required for the 3.0L engine (mostly alternator brackets, a VR sensor mount and welding the missing tooth gear to the crank pulley; the rest is pretty much just running hoses and wires).

Other more knowledgable people will be able to chime in with more specifics about LS swaps and the like.

On a somewhat related note, I would like to put just about any other automatic transmission (or engine/transmission pair) in my car. The problem is that rear the engine/rear wheel drive configuration is not common , and putting a front engine/FWD transmission in the DMC would give you 5 gears in reverse unless you flip the trans and relocate the pan and filler, which itself is non-trivial (although somewhat common for dune buggies, it seems). It looks like the only other viable option is a Porsche 911 (I've read that it bolts right up to the axles and engine, but requires frame modifications to fit), and I've gotten the impression that they're not much more reliable nor any cheaper, and that it might only work for the manual gearbox anyway. Oh well. Someday I'll do an electric conversion, once there are enough junked Teslas and my 3.0L setup kicks the bucket. Maybe another decade or so...

Also, the reason I did a 3.0L engine swap was because I discovered a hole in my 2.8L engine block, and the fuel system had been destroyed by water. It was cheaper to do the swap than to buy a new DMC engine, with the very large caveat that I was doing the labor myself, and it took me over five years from start to finish, having no real idea what I was doing when I started. I don't think I would have done the swap just to get more HP. I had simply planned on doing EFI on the 2.8L until I found the hole in the block.

-- Joe

[AugustneverEnds]

This past spring I had the chance to drive another owners Stage II and I was very surprised and impressed. Much more urgent throttle response, pulled stronger from the bottom and still wasn't out of breath at the top. All of this was just seat of the pants measured. Louder, more aggressive snarl in the exhaust note but not obnoxious and not really intrusive into the cabin. For reference sake my car is a stock auto so probably everything would seem like a major improvement to me lol

[dn010]

I don't think a 3.0 or B280F is an easy swap due to the need of the mentioned ignition/fuel components/electronics.

The easiest swap would be a B28 engine from a Volvo (760, 264, etc). Same fuel system. Same components. Just swap the crank case.

As for reliability? Can't comment on that, same with power. There are probably dozens of options. Reliability somewhat depends on the owner as well.

One thing I can say, I did the B280F swap with EFI and I now have the urge to do another swap to a totally different engine with more power.


I'm certainly no expert (and hopefully someone will correct my mistakes/assumptions); apologies if you already know this stuff:

I believe the "easiest" swap (in a relative sense; none of them are exactly trivial) is the 160 HP 3.0L PRV from a 1989-1992 Dodge Monaco/Eagle Premier.

It's "easy" because after you swap the lower crankcase for the one in the 2.8L, it sits in the correct place in the engine bay. It also mounts directly to the DeLorean transmission just like the 2.8L does. The rest of the swap will be the same for any engine (new fuel system, new ignition system, updated vacuum routing, updated electrical, etc). MegaSquirt-based EFI with Ford EDIS ignition control seems to be the most popular way to go, and is the best documented, although you'll still be doing a lot of reading/research.

[CFI]

I own a Stage II car and I recently drove a bone stock DeLorean. Big difference. I agree with David T, the easiest and maybe most cost effective way to get more power is probably a Stage II upgrade or some sort of turbo.

[jangell]

I don't think a 3.0 or B280F is an easy swap due to the need of the mentioned ignition/fuel components/electronics.

The easiest swap would be a B28 engine from a Volvo (760, 264, etc). Same fuel system. Same components. Just swap the crank case.

I totally agree -- it's "easy" in that you don't have to figure out how to mate the engine and transmission or deal with engine mounting to the subframe. Only relative to other engine swaps is it "easy", and only in that one specific area. It's still a hell of a lot of work.

The stock engine is a B28F, so using a Volvo B28 would be a lateral move, right? Which is handy if you want to get a cheap engine and just get back on the road with a fairly stock configuration.

-- Joe

[dn010]

There are many benefits to using the 3.0 / B280F 2.8. As you said, you don't have to use an adapter for the transmission. You also don't have to cut up your frame to modify it to fit an engine, nor do you have to figure out a mounting system for the engine. On top of that, you can use any vendor exhaust system or stock - you don't have to figure out how you're going to bend pipes to fit. You don't have to upgrade the transmission input shaft coupler to handle increased HP. You don't have to upgrade springs for a heavier engine. You don't have to upgrade brakes for higher HP. You don't have to figure out your AC system, alternator system, the list goes on. This all makes it 'easier' and less expensive.

One word of caution using a B28/F engine would be the oiling issues the early engines had. You'd want to find a later, 80s engine.


I totally agree -- it's "easy" in that you don't have to figure out how to mate the engine and transmission or deal with engine mounting to the subframe. Only relative to other engine swaps is it "easy", and only in that one specific area. It's still a hell of a lot of work.

The stock engine is a B28F, so using a Volvo B28 would be a lateral move, right? Which is handy if you want to get a cheap engine and just get back on the road with a fairly stock configuration.

-- Joe

[Nicholas R]

The terms "Easy-Reliable-High HP" remind me of the terms "Quality-Quick-Inexpensive." At work it's said that when it comes to a job getting done, you can always pick any 2 but you're never going to get all 3.

My guess would be:
Easy/Reliable: the PRV 3.0L swap
Reliable/High HP: LS Swaps
Easy/High HP: Any crappy half-assed engine swapped car that you find parked in someones barn that could potentially have good hp, but it doesn't run or fit worth crap, and isn't reliable in the least.

[Redsquall]

Thanks Guys
this is really interesting to me. I’ve got a stage 1 and may just go for the stage 2. I don’t want to be fiddling with something more than I have to :)

[opethmike]

Stage 2 is 'okay' at best, and MASSIVELY expensive for what you get. 30 horsepower for a few thousand dollars, plus the work to either pull the heads or the whole engine? Eeeeesh. When my block rotted, I went LS swap.

Let me be perfectly clear - while I think this is the best engine swap option because of the incredible reliability of the LS platform, as well as the monstrous horsepower, it is neither easy nor cheap. I spent around 100 hours and $12,000 on my swap. And I still have to finish installing air conditioning.

Thinking really hard about why exactly you want to do a swap, and be realistic. I think it comes down to two choices - if have a dead PRV and just want to get your car running again, go with the 3.0 swap. If you want TONS of power, go LS. In my opinion, the stage 2 is not worth the time or money.

[David T]

While a Stage II is not the most powerful option, it is a lot cheaper and easier than an engine swap. If a Stage II is not enough of an upgrade then you will spend a lot more money. Since the OP already has the Stage I, going to the II is not going to cost him as much as if he had a stock PRV. If he decided to do a swap he will lose what was spent on the Stage I. In this instance it makes the most sense to go for the Stage II IMHO. No way to know if it will be enough to satisfy him but it is a definite improvement over the stock PRV or even a Stage I PRV.

[opethmike]

Saying that the stage 2 isn't the most powerful option implies that it has any power at all. It doesn't. Even if it is less expensive when one already has the proper exhaust, it still is worth neither the time nor the money for it. This is particularly true when one considers that since the camshafts are merely re-grinds of stock shafts (not from billet), the lobe separation angle can't be changed. This means that at best, the power curve remains identical to the stock cams until the new profile 'kicks in', or at worst, there is a loss of power down low.

One has to ring the stage 2 cams out fully to experience the already minute gains. This idea that the stage is 197 horsepower is a complete crock. 150 horse tops, and that is at the crank. And that's still staying with the very poorly designed PRV platform.

[CFI]

I spent around 100 hours and $12,000 on my swap.

So if you paid someone $50/hr to do the swap for you that’s $5,000 for labor, or $17,000 total. Versus $7,000 for a Stage II.

For some people, the $10,000 difference is worth it. For me, it’s not. I have no idea how much horsepower a Stage II actually delivers (I doubt it’s as low as 150) but in my experience it’s definitely worth it.

[Andrew]

The "easiest" engine swap is by far a Volvo B28F swap. However, good B28F's are very scarce these days. I did this swap on 4194 back in 2016. It took about 2 hours worth of work to convert a Volvo B28F to a Delorean B28F. The swap involved transfering the DMC lower crankcase, crank pulley, alternator bracket, oil pressure and coolant temp senders and valve covers, etc. Once the parts were swapped over, the Volvo sourced engine looks almost identical to a stock DMC engine.

I also had to swap the coolant Y-pipe as the 84 style Volvo water pump and pipe assembly would not clear the Peugeot manifold that I'm running.

One of my long-term project ideas is to build an Eagle 3.0 engine with a 2.8 heads, performance cams retimed for even fire and a modified AMC distributor. But that is about 4 projects down the road :-)

[opethmike]

Stage 2 is definitely 150 crank. They dyno about 130 wheel, so adjust for drivetrain loss, and that's about 150. The 33% loss figure thrown around for the DeLorean is hokum.

[David T]

Without getting "into the weeds" about dyno numbers, the buttmeter will tell you a Stage II is a noticeable improvement over a stock PRV. The problem with performance improvements is that you very quickly adjust and want more. More costs and the more you want the more it costs by factors of magnitude. We get to the famous question "How fast do you want to go? Fast costs money so how much do you have? On an unlimited budget you have more options. Don't forget all of the systems of the car also need to be enhanced to handle more power like brakes, suspension, cooling, electrical, and fuel. At some point it makes more sense to get a better performing car rather than going for a transplant. This is exactly why I got a Lotus V-8, for the performance. IMHO it is the car the Delorean would have become if DMC survived.

[Jonathan]

I don't tend to think of big projects or working on the car in general in terms of it being 'easy' or what is 'easiest.' You might be after what is the most 'straight forward' or 'simplest' but not what is easiest. I might ask what engine swap options need the fewest amount of modifications or custom fabricated parts or brackets. Then weigh those options against what the engine's are going to deliver in terms of horsepower and parts costs too.

That might be what you meant anyway. Straight forward versus easy. Of course, I can think of some things on the car that are actually easy. For example, it is easy to fack things up and make it worse when tackling a project you thought was going to be straight forward. Although that's kind of a given and covered in the manual :)

[Nicholas R]

Stage 2 is 'okay' at best, and MASSIVELY expensive for what you get. 30 horsepower for a few thousand dollars, plus the work to either pull the heads or the whole engine? Eeeeesh. When my block rotted, I went LS swap.

Let me be perfectly clear - while I think this is the best engine swap option because of the incredible reliability of the LS platform, as well as the monstrous horsepower, it is neither easy nor cheap. I spent around 100 hours and $12,000 on my swap. And I still have to finish installing air conditioning.

Thinking really hard about why exactly you want to do a swap, and be realistic. I think it comes down to two choices - if have a dead PRV and just want to get your car running again, go with the 3.0 swap. If you want TONS of power, go LS. In my opinion, the stage 2 is not worth the time or money.

Whoa whoa whoa; you only estimate that you spent 100 hours on your swap?? That cannot possibly be true. When I was in the thick of my swap back in 2012, there were weeks where I spent 100 hours on it. I began disassembly Saturday January 14th, and had it back together and running with the new engine and manual transmission (after the transmission swap) on Saturday May 12th, 2012. My estimate was that in that 4 months, I spent around 1000 hours working on it, and I had roughly 1000 additional hours of support from other people (friends, family, etc.). Obviously I had a lot more unknowns, also did the transmission swap which included a body frame separation, and had things like 50 hours making a flywheel, but still. 100 hours seems grossly underestimated to me.

Even after my swap was "finished," I'm sure I spent a couple hundred more hours refining things in the following months. Things like a better intake, better exhaust, wiring cleanup, part improvements, AC work, tuning, etc. :wrenchin:


Without getting "into the weeds" about dyno numbers, the buttmeter will tell you a Stage II is a noticeable improvement over a stock PRV.

Agreed; we should definitely omit measurable empirical data and instead compare numbers based on the "buttmeter"... :rolleyes:

[Josh]

Whoa whoa whoa; you only estimate that you spent 100 hours on your swap?? That cannot possibly be true. When I was in the thick of my swap back in 2012, there were weeks where I spent 100 hours on it. I began disassembly Saturday January 14th, and had it back together and running with the new engine and manual transmission (after the transmission swap) on Saturday May 12th, 2012. My estimate was that in that 4 months, I spent around 1000 hours working on it, and I had roughly 1000 additional hours of support from other people (friends, family, etc.). Obviously I had a lot more unknowns, also did the transmission swap which included a body frame separation, and had things like 50 hours making a flywheel, but still. 100 hours seems grossly underestimated to me.

Even after my swap was "finished," I'm sure I spent a couple hundred more hours refining things in the following months. Things like a better intake, better exhaust, wiring cleanup, part improvements, AC work, tuning, etc. :wrenchin:



Agreed; we should definitely omit measurable empirical data and instead compare numbers based on the "buttmeter"... :rolleyes:

I will agree mike is underestimating his time, However it is all garage time and minimal engineering time. That is what really soaks up all those hours!
but at the end of the day we all have bad-ass engine swaps that give us much more power than a delorean should have :rollin::burnout:

As for stage 2 power numbers - everyone seems to forget it is pretty much just cams and exhaust on a 100whp stock setup. Furthermore there is no dyno information supplied by DMC.
Mike had DPI cams and exhaust as well as a meticulously tuned EFI setup and it just crested 150whp. You would be crazy to think DMC stage 2 is anywhere north of this.
For 7k (or whatever they charge) it is certainly not a good value to me.

[opethmike]

You guys are probably right that I am underestimating my time, but like Josh said, it was purely garage time. In my estimate, I wasn't factoring in research, time tuning carb once on the road, etc, etc.

Considering the 7k being spent on stage 2 setups, real dyno graphs should be getting supplied by the vendors. By that, I mean at the wheel numbers for the engine installed in a car, and at the crank for the setup on an engine dyno. Not only would this show what one is actually getting for the very high dollars to horsepower ratio, but it would also either confirm or dispel the supposed 32% drivetrain loss.

I'm still quite curious how in the DMC, the UN1 robs 32% power, but not in any of the other cars it is in, or when it is behind (in front?) of an LS, 2ZZ, etc.

[Michael]

Driving a stage II auto for the last 10 years I can say that I am glad my car is equipped with the stage II engine, but I am even more happy that I wasn't the one who paid for the upgrade.

[opethmike]

Driving a stage II auto for the last 10 years I can say that I am glad my car is equipped with the stage II engine, but I am even more happy that I wasn't the one who paid for the upgrade.

Yeah, they certainly are better than stock, but the price isn't worth imho, unless you do the work yourself.

[Nicholas R]

Driving a stage II auto for the last 10 years I can say that I am glad my car is equipped with the stage II engine, but I am even more happy that I wasn't the one who paid for the upgrade.

This might be the best Stage II tagline; "Stage II, the best upgrade a previous owner can buy" :wink:

[Michael]

This might be the best Stage II tagline; "Stage II, the best upgrade a previous owner can buy" :wink:

LOL...perfect!

Yeah on it's best day it equals 1bhp per 100 bucks spent. On the plus side, I have a base to move to the stage III but with the autobox, I'm going to just play the hand that I was dealt.

[David T]

If you are going to get into the numbers it is not all about raw maximum HP. To really understand what is going on you need to see and compare the before and after of the torque curve and the HP curve. Most people would still need explanation, that is why I refer to the "buttmeter". As for HP vs $$, $7K in the grand scheme of things as far as performance goes, is not all that much. I have seen where people pay a lot more for a lot less power. As you move up the scale every increase tends to be less and less improvement but the costs go up and up. The first 10 HP is a tenth of the next 10 HP and so on. I do agree the time to go for the Stage II is when you need to replace the motor. That way most of the cost is already justified. If you are looking for the most "Bang for the Buck" the turbo is the way to go. You can do it for $4K and get more than you would with the Stage II.

[opethmike]

A turbo... because you want to blow out the already weak cylinder liners...

[Michael]

A turbo... because you want to blow out the already weak cylinder liners...

What did the turbo kits of the day run anyway 5, 6 pounds?

[David T]

The problem with the turbo was control. It used a very rudimentary actuation system and if it failed you could overboost the motor and blow the pistons. The boost has to be kept below 6# or the cast pistons would die. To get more boost it takes forged pistons and intercoolers. The liners are OK to handle more pressure. With the turbo you don't need headers (Stage I) or aggressive cams (Stage II). For anyone thinking of going with Turbos the way to do it now would be to put a computer controlled EFI system on that can control the turbos and get rid of the restrictive K-Jet system. So now you are spending $4K for a turbo kit and another $1-2K for the EFI. Still less cost than a Stage II and more power. IMHO that is the way to go to get the most bang for the buck. And in the future if you want more you can change the pistons and increase the boost. If that isn't enough you can add intercoolers so you have a path to increase the power too.

[Nicholas R]

If you are looking for the most "Bang for the Buck" the turbo is the way to go. You can do it for $4K and get more than you would with the Stage II.

I'm confused, where do you get a $4,000 bolt on turbo kit for a DeLorean?

[opethmike]

What did the turbo kits of the day run anyway 5, 6 pounds?

Yeah, and still issues with blow-by, detonation, etc. Most of that though can be contributed to the rather bootleg modifications to fueling and timing included with the kit. As evidenced by the Esprit, K-Jet and a distributor can absolutely support a turbo (my old, non-intercooled 1987 Esprit Turbo ran 9.5 pounds of boost with K-Jet, and had zero blow-by issues), but the supporting modifications need to be done intelligently.

Nowadays, if I were to turbo a PRV without touching the internals, I would convert to EFI and at a minimum control the distributor via the same computer. Luke Sandel would be the guy to talk to about that stuff though. He has real world knowledge of it, whereas I am just theorizing.

[CFI]

Driving a stage II auto for the last 10 years I can say that I am glad my car is equipped with the stage II engine, but I am even more happy that I wasn't the one who paid for the upgrade.

Same here!:)

[opethmike]

The problem with the turbo was control. It used a very rudimentary actuation system and if it failed you could overboost the motor and blow the pistons. The boost has to be kept below 6# or the cast pistons would die. To get more boost it takes forged pistons and intercoolers. The liners are OK to handle more pressure. With the turbo you don't need headers (Stage I) or aggressive cams (Stage II). For anyone thinking of going with Turbos the way to do it now would be to put a computer controlled EFI system on that can control the turbos and get rid of the restrictive K-Jet system. So now you are spending $4K for a turbo kit and another $1-2K for the EFI. Still less cost than a Stage II and more power. IMHO that is the way to go to get the most bang for the buck. And in the future if you want more you can change the pistons and increase the boost. If that isn't enough you can add intercoolers so you have a path to increase the power too.

But ultimately, you still have the PRV as your power center. Block rot becoming increasingly more common, poor quality aluminum, and I could go on and on.

[FABombjoy]

I'm confused, where do you get a $4,000 bolt on turbo kit for a DeLorean?
That's probably what I spent on my scratch-built (er, "bespoke") turbo/efi setup. A business would have to sell a lot of kit pre-orders to get the price to $4K and make probably zilch money in the process.

Also eventually servicing the 80's turbo kits will become a problem and I wouldn't steer anyone towards them that isn't prepared to deal with semi-advanced problem solving.
I wasted a lot of time trying to find Island turbos w/ proper carbon seals and settled on a Garret T3 which are easier to build for draw through. But so few turbo use carbon seal that even my rebuilder managed to screw it up.
You can find bolt-on RHB5s that fit on the Island hardware all day long and almost none will actually work if you want to keep oil in the crankcase.

[Redsquall]

The problem with the turbo was control. It used a very rudimentary actuation system and if it failed you could overboost the motor and blow the pistons. The boost has to be kept below 6# or the cast pistons would die. To get more boost it takes forged pistons and intercoolers. The liners are OK to handle more pressure. With the turbo you don't need headers (Stage I) or aggressive cams (Stage II). For anyone thinking of going with Turbos the way to do it now would be to put a computer controlled EFI system on that can control the turbos and get rid of the restrictive K-Jet system. So now you are spending $4K for a turbo kit and another $1-2K for the EFI. Still less cost than a Stage II and more power. IMHO that is the way to go to get the most bang for the buck. And in the future if you want more you can change the pistons and increase the boost. If that isn't enough you can add intercoolers so you have a path to increase the power too.

Is there anyone around that knows what they’re doing with this that would do this? I’m in Indiana

[Redsquall]

No one has dyno’d before and after getting a stage 2?

[David T]

The Island Turbo kits are few and far between but they do become available every now and then when an owner takes one off and goes back to stock. The turbos are hard to find but there are rebuilders who can still do them. I agree control was the big problem with them between controlling the boost, timing, and fuel delivery. BUT! Now we have an alternative that wasn't available back in the 80's. You can buy an EFI system, bolt it on, and program it yourself. Don't fool yourself, the K-jet is a very limited and restrictive system. It became a hodge-podge of added system on added system to try to stay modern but it's basic feature, the venturi with the air flow sensor, makes it very restrictive to the free flow of air. It was the best they could do "back in the day" but, like carburetors, their day has passed. For the record, I have an Island Turbo kit and I would consider selling it but it does NOT come with an EFI system. I leave that up to whoever buys the kit. As for the price, I am guessing it is worth around $4K based on what I have in it. Anyone considering buying it would have to have some experience with turbos. As far as I know the only DMC shops with any experience is DMC CA or PJ Grady. The other shops just want to take them off. To them it is't worth the trouble to keep them going. They are finicky.

[mr_maxime]

I drove Andy Blackmon's stage 2. It's more power but I'd say not really worth it and its not a swap.

While I'm still a long ways away, everything is steering me to the LS. They are the most well documented swaps that I've seen and you'll find the members that have done an LS swap posting in nearly every engine swap thread on this forum.

[opethmike]

No one has dyno’d before and after getting a stage 2?

Yes, plenty. The DMC gets 95-100 horsepower at the wheel stock, and then 130-135 at the wheel with stage 2. That works out to 145-150 at the crank. Does not come close to the advertised 197 crank that the vendors advertise.

No vendor does turbos. A VERY good speed shop could do turbos for you, but realistically going to be looking at much, much more than the out of thin air $4k that Guru came up with.

Actually, no. DPI does a turbo setup, but it's around $25,000.

I have experience with many different kinds of performance mods for the car, and many other kinds of cars. My first question is - what exactly are you looking for power wise? My second question is - how much are you willing to spend?

I can come across as a bit cranky when discussing DeLoreans and power, but I'm not trying to be combative or snotty with anyone. The thing is, I've been around these cars for 15 years, and have been into high performance car modification for just as long. And the DeLorean scene is full of false claims around power gains, lack of evidence for supposed improvements, etc. And that's got to go with the prices involved.

[opethmike]

Also, if anyone is seriously considering an LS swap, you are very welcome to drive my car for a few hours, provided you are willing to come to Rochester NY.

[Christian Dietrich]

I have a Spec-1 exhaust and no cats, larger air box with a CAI and a throttle body spacer. Vast improvement over stock by ditching the stock emissions crap. My car pulls nicely but new cams are in its near future! I don't need a swap cause i dont believe in them and can be expensive. Do a mild engine build with a Stage 1 or 2. For reliability, I can't knock the PRV. My car is a VERY reliable ride! I carry no tools or parts. Been that way for 4 years now. I built it right and been trouble free! I commute to work in her at least three times a week a 182 miles a day and get 24mpg climbing up and down mountains and everything! https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190122/d66befd5e8d72517b861473059cb87e0.jpg

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

[Mark D]

Speaking of engine swaps...

My new favorite hobby is searching through Pick-n-Pull type salvage yards to find BMW parts for a project I'm working on... Yesterday I came across this beauty. Anybody interested in a 3.0L swap?

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=59083&d=1548166155

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=59084&d=1548166155

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=59085&d=1548166186

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=59086&d=1548166186

[dn010]

I love that people are still going on about how the new 'throttle plates' increases performance when there is absolutely no testing done and could be actually doing worse for you.

I've had the original engine with numerous exhaust setups and the air box cut off below the filter. I wasted time with different coils and plugs/wires. I now have the B280F with EFI, spec 1 and other goodies. It is an improvement over the stock engine but I still don't consider it to be a 'vast' improvement performance wise. It's still a PRV.

I agree on the reliability of them though, as long as you've maintained it. In 17 years of ownership, neither the original nor replacement PRV has let me down, never left me stranded and never needed a tow home, thankfully.

[opethmike]

^ That's the whole thing that gets me; it's a chronic issue in the DeLorean performance modification scene - unsubstantiated claims of performance gains that I never, ever see anymore "proof" of than "well to me my car feels faster". Well, great, I'm happy for you that you feel your time and money were well spent, but has it actually been shown to be an improvement? How much of an improvement? Where in the power band? Frankly, I think it is dishonest of anyone selling these supposed performance improvement parts without any actual data to back up claims. I've never seen any other car community demand so little of its performance vendors.

[jangell]

I see talk of turbos, but I never really see anyone talk about superchargers. Is there a reason for that? I realize that they take engine power to make engine power (due to being belt driven), but it seems a lot easier for a DIY'er to fab up a mounting bracket for a small supercharger and a Y pipe to the throttle body than it does to rework the exhaust for a turbo.

I've been toying around with the idea recently. Something like an Aisin SD12, which is pretty small and gives around 10 pounds of boost (although that would need to be gated down quite a lot to stay in the safe limits of the engine, even more so for me since I have an auto and need to stay under 200 ft/lb... so like 3-5 pounds, maybe?), and it has an electrically-controlled clutch so you can turn it off when you don't need it. Or an even smaller AMR300 or AMR500, although those don't have the clutch and would be on all the time. Any of these can be had for $300-$800 on eBay, but you'll have to figure out the mounting, the bypass valve, and the belt and air connections yourself. I already have EFI on my 3.0L, so boost control and overboost protection shouldn't be a problem.

Also, I learned most of these words in the last week or so, so I probably still don't know what I'm talking about. :)

-- Joe

[Michael]

... the DeLorean performance modification scene

It's a mean scene here man!!

[opethmike]

It's a mean scene here man!!

LOL! I love you man.

[Nicholas R]

^ That's the whole thing that gets me; it's a chronic issue in the DeLorean performance modification scene - unsubstantiated claims of performance gains that I never, ever see anymore "proof" of than "well to me my car feels faster". Well, great, I'm happy for you that you feel your time and money were well spent, but has it actually been shown to be an improvement? How much of an improvement? Where in the power band? Frankly, I think it is dishonest of anyone selling these supposed performance improvement parts without any actual data to back up claims. I've never seen any other car community demand so little of its performance vendors.

It's all measured by the buttmeter Mike!

[opethmike]

It's all measured by the buttmeter Mike!

True. I should have just gotten one of those $4k turbo kits that make good power.

[eight8toy]

Shouldn't we all just forget the horsepower and "enjoy the ride"?

[opethmike]

Sure, if you don't mind paying good money for parts with unsubstantiated claims behind them.

[Michael]

People that engine swap can't enjoy the ride. Huge mistake, very Sad

[opethmike]

People that engine swap can't enjoy the ride. Huge mistake, very Sad

This is true. Every time I drive my super powerful DeLorean, I get very sad.

[David T]

I can certainly agree with you on all kinds of claims (substantiated and unsubstantiated). That's why I say the difference in performance is subjective. What might seem like a big improvement to one person may be a minor amount to someone else. Using numbers to try to figure out which mod or improvement is good better/best is also hard because you do not get the story behind the numbers and you can not compare them directly since the testing is not done the same. As for my $4K number for a turbo kit. That is parts ONLY. It needs to be installed. A handy DIY'er could do it but if you pay someone it could cost another $1K at least. And that is assuming you are putting it on a good, well maintained car that doesn't need anything else too. As for supercharging, it takes a lot more fabrication to mount up a SC and you would have to replace the whole belt system. Big job. While a SC doesn't have lag it takes a LOT of power out of the motor, more than a turbo. Good if you want a lot of boost especially at low RPM's. Not really what is needed for the PRV. Can't put too much boost into the stock PRV and at low RPM's the power loss is unacceptablely high. You would also have to chop up or lose the engine cover and rear louvers to get the room to put it on top of the motor. Bottom line, the cheapest way to add a lot of power is to put a turbo on it. The downside is the cost and living with the "finikyness" of the set-up. Adding EFI would go a long way to making the turbo more reliable and less finiky. One member of the DMA did a Nissan engine swap I believe and that car really took off! Of course there was a lot of custom fabbing to get it all to work but it was impressive! No, he did not dyno it so there are no numbers but the buttmeter had a high reading!

[opethmike]

Your $$$ estimates on the turbo setup are hilariously low dude.

[Nicholas R]

This is true. Every time I drive my super powerful DeLorean, I get very sad.

Me to. I cry all the way to the top of my power curve :cry:

[CFI]

Shouldn't we all just forget the horsepower and "enjoy the ride"?

I do exactly that on a regular basis. It’s great that people are experimenting with engine swaps, turbos, etc. but I’ve never been interested in any of that stuff. Maybe it’s because I’m used to traveling at 400+mph. After a while you realize that all land based transportation is just different levels of “slow”.:)

[mr_maxime]

I can come across as a bit cranky when discussing DeLoreans and power, but I'm not trying to be combative or snotty with anyone. The thing is, I've been around these cars for 15 years, and have been into high performance car modification for just as long. And the DeLorean scene is full of false claims around power gains, lack of evidence for supposed improvements, etc. And that's got to go with the prices involved.

My favorite is this from Hervey "Looks great. Who knows how much HP or fraction of HP we could be getting with this Modification."

[Michael]

DeLorean horsepower is best measured in ducks

[opethmike]

DeLorean horsepower is best measured in ducks

Llama llama duck

[Ras12]

Anyone considered swapping in a Subaru Boxster engine? Tons of conversions done on rear engine VW's that have similar constraints as the Delorean such as cooling, stock transmission HP capabilities, etc. The engines would definitely fit into the existing bays with the challenging part being adapting the transmissions to the engine. I also see a lot of supercharged 3800 V6 Pontiac GXP engine swaps into Fieros. Again similar issues. A Pontiac swap would (in a round about way) pay homage to JZD's former Pontiac - Muscle car days. Just a thought.

[opethmike]

A Subaru Boxer engine wouldn't fit because of the tight shape of the DMC engine cradle.

[powerline84]

My car was a bae turbo car when I got it . And at 38 000 miles the motor was toast . I was shocked at how much oil I poured out of the exhaust manifolds lol. Those turbo kits were primitive at best . Why someone would buy an origional set up is beyond me. Archaic boost control. Garbage turbo. Blah blah blah. I ditched the@#×% immediately. I will say that after seing Luke's car I am a believer. But he is also an efi homade turbo pioneer of sorts and has years of r & d in that car. It's a bad ass car.

[Josh]

Anyone considered swapping in a Subaru Boxster engine? Tons of conversions done on rear engine VW's that have similar constraints as the Delorean such as cooling, stock transmission HP capabilities, etc. The engines would definitely fit into the existing bays with the challenging part being adapting the transmissions to the engine. I also see a lot of supercharged 3800 V6 Pontiac GXP engine swaps into Fieros. Again similar issues. A Pontiac swap would (in a round about way) pay homage to JZD's former Pontiac - Muscle car days. Just a thought.

I had an EJ in my garage and an empty frame. I took one measurement and sent the motor off to the scrap yard. It is WAYYYY too wide to fit in the delorean engine cradle. If you cut off the rear section of the frame, rebuilt it (also re designing the rear suspension) you could make it fit.

But that is a lot of work for a garbage Subaru engine.

[Riley88]

My favorite is this from Hervey "Looks great. Who knows how much HP or fraction of HP we could be getting with this Modification."
Omg everytime i go view his website for lolz i read that and laugh. ' WHO KNOWS!?!??!?!"

[Ras12]

I had an EJ in my garage and an empty frame. I took one measurement and sent the motor off to the scrap yard. It is WAYYYY too wide to fit in the delorean engine cradle. If you cut off the rear section of the frame, rebuilt it (also re designing the rear suspension) you could make it fit.

But that is a lot of work for a garbage Subaru engine.

That's great to know as the VW scene has a lot of these conversations and it seemed like a possible option...that's why I threw it out there. Totally agree that Hacking up the frame isn't worth all the reengineering needed. Thank you for the input. Anyone know if the Pontiac Supercharged Series III would fit?

[Josh]

That's great to know as the VW scene has a lot of these conversations and it seemed like a possible option...that's why I threw it out there. Totally agree that Hacking up the frame isn't worth all the reengineering needed. Thank you for the input. Anyone know if the Pontiac Supercharged Series III would fit?

Well the engine hangs out the back end of the car, the frame stops around the bellhousing area. I do find it funny that a subaru engine is more reliable than a VW engine, yikes.
There have been a few Buick V6 swaps. It is a 60deg v6 so it fits in the frame nicer than the PRV as far as I am concerned. The most notable example is the "The World's Fastest Delorean" as claimed by Donald Steger. They had a custom bellhousing made that interfaced it with the stock delorean transmission but it was a few decades ago and they are near impossible to find now. This bell housing was for the conventional gm v8 bolt pattern but would work on the Buick RWD bolt pattern (or visa versa). This car has been sold and disassembled i think it is being returned to stock (don't quote me on that)

My LS4 adapter would interface a FWD Buick V6 with the stock delorean transmission though as they are the same GM metric bolt pattern.

[opethmike]

Well the engine hangs out the back end of the car, the frame stops around the bellhousing area. I do find it funny that a subaru engine is more reliable than a VW engine, yikes.
There have been a few Buick V6 swaps. It is a 60deg v6 so it fits in the frame nicer than the PRV as far as I am concerned. The most notable example is the "The World's Fastest Delorean" as claimed by Donald Steger. They had a custom bellhousing made that interfaced it with the stock delorean transmission but it was a few decades ago and they are near impossible to find now. This bell housing was for the conventional gm v8 bolt pattern but would work on the Buick RWD bolt pattern (or visa versa). This car has been sold and disassembled i think it is being returned to stock (don't quote me on that)

My LS4 adapter would interface a FWD Buick V6 with the stock delorean transmission though as they are the same GM metric bolt pattern.

You know what you must do...

[leroylem]

I could not resist joining this discussion-----everyone entitled to his opinion/preference---right. I chose a sbc (327) because I had one available at no cost---of course I spent quite a few $$$ building it to 400 plus HP---luckily found one of the Don Steger bellhousings new in the box---had to build engine mounts, flywheel mods, clutch mods, etc, but at really very moderate expense, the car is now a great high performance, dependable driver---several thousand miles since the conversion---so far very satisfied with the swap. I love originality in any/all classic/collector cars, but lots of horsepower adds to the fun.

Leroy 2126

[Farrar]

#2613 has a 3.0L engine. Yes, it is probably the "easiest swap," but it was still a lot of work, even without electronic fuel and spark management.

That said, I wasn't looking for speed. I was looking for replacement of a dead stock engine with another one that was cheap and readily available.

[at88mph]

Well for me, I went with the Vortec 4.3 V6 back in 2000 b/c there wasn't NEAR as many swaps that had been done and not much info out there. I originally wanted to go LS1 but with the auto trans, and the size of the auto bellhousing that Don offered (which was the ONLY one around at the time) that wasn't going to work. Even with the 4.3 I had to run a short water pump and STILL had to notch a slight hole in the back of the rear fascia. in 03 I swapped out the stock auto trans with a 72 915 Porsche transaxle out of a 911. The entire size of the bell-housing I needed (which is why I went with a Porsche transaxle b/c a lot of the Porsche guys have done swaps of all kinds) was AMAZINGLY smaller than the one for the stock auto trans. The Porsche bell-housing is MAYBE 3/4 to an inch thick! Now I was VERY lucky and did the install by myself, BUT I don't think I had more than $5k in the complete swap! (Granted, here in AL. you can pick up 4.3 Vortec motors all day long for $400-600 and I got STUPIDLY lucky on finding someone on the Porsche forum that was interested in my swap and just wanted to get the trans out of his garage and sold it for $450 SHIPPED but that being said, my GOAL was reliability and I'm happy to admit, it was the best decision I've made since owning the car. I know people say all the time how reliable the stock PRV is and I'm glad so many owners haven't had hardly any issues out of them, BUT mine seemed to have issues every other week!! ALWAYS something so, for me, the swap was great! I got what I wanted. My DeLorean was finally dependable and I can now drive it anywhere/anytime :)

[Malevy]

Wow, I forgot how many "experts" there are on DMCTalk.. LOL!

Interestingly, the guys on this thread who have actually done an engine swap are the most accurate. Who would have thunk it?

[David T]

Your engine swap was among the best I have seen. Why don't you relist what you did? Not only was it a clean looking job, you wound up with a lot of performance too. Also you have experience with the Island Turbo so your comparison would be useful as to how they compare to the engine swap and the stock PRV.

[Josh]

Wow, I forgot how many "experts" there are on DMCTalk.. LOL!

Interestingly, the guys on this thread who have actually done an engine swap are the most accurate. Who would have thunk it?

Pfft. You dont know anything.

[Farrar]

One of my long-term project ideas is to build an Eagle 3.0 engine with a 2.8 heads, performance cams retimed for even fire and a modified AMC distributor.

Do the "performance cams" that are on the market have a distributor gear and fuel pump lobe as on the 2.8L camshafts, or are those features absent as on the 3.0L camshafts?

[Malevy]

Your engine swap was among the best I have seen. Why don't you relist what you did? Not only was it a clean looking job, you wound up with a lot of performance too. Also you have experience with the Island Turbo so your comparison would be useful as to how they compare to the engine swap and the stock PRV.

Relist what I did? I put a VQ35 with a 915 (done with the confidence of those before me like Duke and Bob Brandys) in 6068, then got stupid and put a ProCharger on it. More recently I put a MS3 on it. I stopped keeping track of the number of hours the car has in to it, and suspect it will never be "done" because I will always want to improve it. The install has been cleaned up since you last saw it David.

Island turbo was not all it was cracked up to be, or maybe it was- because I have looked at a lot of stock DeLorean engines that had "turbo kits" added, and they all blow oil. I suspect cracked rings, but I have never taken one apart to diagnose (including mine, which is still sitting on the garage floor). I think it would be too expensive to do a proper turbo PRV build (like Legend), but there are some that claim to have done it (Josh @ DPI and Ed in Europe). The blowing oil on the Island setup is what pushed me to do the engine swap.

The exhaust and cam modifications sold by various vendors are decent, but (as others have said) don't seem to achieve the published performance increases. the "butt dyno" may say otherwise, but it is the unnecessarily loud exhaust that gives that impression. There is also the reality that there are a lot of poorly running DeLoreans in the wild. It is impressive how well a stock DMC actually runs when it is set up properly, even though a modern Maxima will still beat it.

My initial swap was probably the best "bang for the buck", IMHO. Got a $600 junkyard engine, another $1000 on the trans, by the time I was done I had about $8K in to the swap, and 400 man hours (in the garage). Dyno was about 210 HP at the wheels (less that it should have been because I had it running on a VQ30 ECU). It was fun to drive. I have since spent way more on it, and put in countless hours making it "better".. and it is, but I have passed the point of it being financially practical to encourage others to take the same path (maybe stop at just the engine!). With people like Nick and Josh who have been very generous with their information and custom parts, the LS route may be the best way to go at this moment for someone willing to make the investment and do the work needed for a project like this.

Anyone thinking about it should be going in WITHOUT a financial or time budget. If you have one, you will be disappointed.. I think that goes for any custom project.

Wait a few more years, and just convert to electric.. LOL

[opethmike]

Do the "performance cams" that are on the market have a distributor gear and fuel pump lobe as on the 2.8L camshafts, or are those features absent as on the 3.0L camshafts?

They're simply the stock 2.8 cams reground with slightly different specs. Definitely not an optimized performance grind as a result. There are gains, but they are all in the second half of the power band, so if you aren't planning on ringing out your engine, then I personally wouldn't consider them worth it. Cam swaps on a PRV aren't easy. You either have to pull the heads, or pull the engine.

[opethmike]

With people like Nick and Josh who have been very generous with their information and custom parts, the LS route may be the best way to go at this moment for someone willing to make the investment and do the work needed for a project like this.

Anyone thinking about it should be going in WITHOUT a financial or time budget. If you have one, you will be disappointed.. I think that goes for any custom project.




I can't begin to express how thankful I am for Josh and Nick, as someone who is passionate about big horsepower (the LS platform in particular), but does not have the expertise/skill to engineer his own swap. Without their generosity, I would never have started, and certainly not completed, my LS4 swap, and frankly, probably have sold my car.

+1 on the time/finance budgeting. I went in expecting to spend ~$10k, and ~3 months on my swap. Six months and $15k later, I finally took it for the first drive. Then spent another five months tuning, working out bugs, and fixing a variety of (thankfully small) problems.

[Farrar]

There are gains, but they are all in the second half of the power band,

Ah, so pretty much pointless. LOL

Looks like if a DMC owner wants torque, it's best to just ditch the PRV for an engine with a lower power band.

[Malevy]

Cam swaps on a PRV aren't easy. You either have to pull the heads, or pull the engine.

Cut an access hole in the fiberglass? :P


Six months and $15k later, I finally took it for the first drive. Then spent another five months tuning, working out bugs, and fixing a variety of (thankfully small) problems.

I had heard you were working on a LS swap.. Glad to hear it was successful.

[opethmike]

Cut an access hole in the fiberglass? :P



I had heard you were working on a LS swap.. Glad to hear it was successful.

Has.... has anyone actually done the access hole cutting?

Well, as successful as engine swap can be, I suppose. How's the Nissan?

[Malevy]

Has.... has anyone actually done the access hole cutting?

I did see a car at a past DCS show that had an access hole cut there, and asked the owner about it.. said it was done to change the cams. So, based on hearsay someone has done it.



Well, as successful as engine swap can be, I suppose. How's the Nissan?

Took a long time to get the last batch of stuff done, lots of other cars in the shop to work on! When we got to mine, reworked the intake and intercooler, swapped for a larger TB. Had to change all of the timing components from VQ30 back to VQ35 (with VVT), also had to change the tooth-ring on the flywheel. Then making the custom MS3 harness. Spent a few months chasing down a sync issue that turned out to be a stuck timing chain tensioner, but also used some of that thinking time to install dynomat. Also installed the Neiland vented rotor setup. Did a few other things too, and the car did see about 25 road miles before I parked it a few weeks ago. It will need lots of tuning. Runs very rich under load, and I have not even tried to tune the VVT yet. Will probably get some dyno time next spring.

[David T]

So it would seem, from a practical point of view, financially and time wise, an engine swap is not a good way to get more horsepower. Especially if you are not handy and have to pay someone to do the work. Only small gains from doing the PRV swap which would be the one swap with the least amount of machining and custom parts. Small gains also for the Stage II but that would be a bolt-on kind of thing. So the only way to get a bunch more HP without breaking the bank would be the Island Turbo or BAE Turbo kits. I agree, if you don't control it you WILL blow the pistons lands. Not so much if but when. That is why I like the idea of going to EFI to optimize engine control and have built-in protection for the motor to prevent overboost. The downside is it will add to the cost and add a lot of time to fine-tune it. The upside is you could probably get more HP out of it and not worry about blowing it up.

[opethmike]

So it would seem, from a practical point of view, financially and time wise, an engine swap is not a good way to get more horsepower. Especially if you are not handy and have to pay someone to do the work. Only small gains from doing the PRV swap which would be the one swap with the least amount of machining and custom parts. Small gains also for the Stage II but that would be a bolt-on kind of thing. So the only way to get a bunch more HP without breaking the bank would be the Island Turbo or BAE Turbo kits. I agree, if you don't control it you WILL blow the pistons lands. Not so much if but when. That is why I like the idea of going to EFI to optimize engine control and have built-in protection for the motor to prevent overboost. The downside is it will add to the cost and add a lot of time to fine-tune it. The upside is you could probably get more HP out of it and not worry about blowing it up.

I acknowledge that you have made a statement.


Runs very rich under load, and I have not even tried to tune the VVT yet. Will probably get some dyno time next spring.

Morbidly curious how rich very rich is?

[FABombjoy]

Island turbo was not all it was cracked up to be, or maybe it was- because I have looked at a lot of stock DeLorean engines that had "turbo kits" added, and they all blow oil. I suspect cracked rings, but I have never taken one apart to diagnose (including mine, which is still sitting on the garage floor).
Having turbos installed in draw-through confounds the root of this issue. Horsing around with my own draw-through setup I was "gifted" almost every failure mode in this regard due to a variety of circumstances. As such, oil escaping the bearing housing or consumption via blowback is a symptom of multiple potential issues which should be ruled out systematically. Well.. blowback is probably a cracked ringland but you could have:

-excess crankcase pressure
-insufficient drain
-excessive oil feed pressure
-bad carbon seal
-cracked housing
-probably other reasons I'm forgetting


So the only way to get a bunch more HP without breaking the bank would be the Island Turbo or BAE Turbo kits. I agree, if you don't control it you WILL blow the pistons lands. Not so much if but when. That is why I like the idea of going to EFI to optimize engine control and have built-in protection for the motor to prevent overboost.
Converting to EFI lets you do make three substantial changes:

1: You can run the turbos in blow-through mode instead of draw through. This frees you from consuming oil via the compressor housing seal route, and opens up a world of dynamic seal turbos.
2: You can run a proper spark curve based on load and not that cockamamie nonsense of welding a distributor weight.
3: You can have fueling that is actually based on air density (k-jet does not do this and I have real world data to back this up)

I suspect #2 and #3 go a long way in ringland preservation. Factory ring gaps are not set up for turbo so you need to exercise some restraint - if they rings expand and touch, they will swell against the ringlands which are aluminum and will lose the battle. If you run a clobbered distributor per the BAE / Island setup, you can spend a lot of time at cruising RPMs with late ignition. It's my understanding that this results in a less efficient effort on the piston and greater transfer of heat into the cylinders, heads, etc. I suspect that some of ringland failures occurred under these conditions - higher than optimal piston & cylinder temps, ring swelling, coupled with transient throttle inputs, late timing & lean mixtures leading to ringland damage. I've only seen one picture of a failed stock piston and it didn't appear to show any of the classic symptoms from detonation. Keeping cylinder temps lower and (hopefully) keeping the ring ends from meeting is the biggest reason why I run water injection.

In conclusion: LS swap

[opethmike]

Haha, you said 'cock'

[Malevy]

Morbidly curious how rich very rich is?

At some points, I think I maxed out the AFR gauge...



So it would seem, from a practical point of view, financially and time wise, an engine swap is not a good way to get more horsepower. Especially if you are not handy and have to pay someone to do the work. Only small gains from doing the PRV swap which would be the one swap with the least amount of machining and custom parts. Small gains also for the Stage II but that would be a bolt-on kind of thing. So the only way to get a bunch more HP without breaking the bank would be the Island Turbo or BAE Turbo kits. I agree, if you don't control it you WILL blow the pistons lands. Not so much if but when. That is why I like the idea of going to EFI to optimize engine control and have built-in protection for the motor to prevent overboost. The downside is it will add to the cost and add a lot of time to fine-tune it. The upside is you could probably get more HP out of it and not worry about blowing it up.

How much would it be to create a turbo kit today? Or even buy a used one? Add to that cost the proposed EFI, and inter-coolers (to do it correctly) and you are approaching what Mike reports to have just spent on his LS conversion. the cost VS power ratio still seems better with an engine conversion.

I think you are trying to find a "one size fits all" answer to getting more power in a DMC. I don't think it exists.

[opethmike]

I agree with Marc. The only advantage that *I* could see to going to the intercooled/EFI turbo setup would be that there would be less custom fabrication, and the physical installation would be less complex. But certainly nowhere near simple, and I feel that if you could do all that, you could do the swap. Paying someone else to do the work for either project would easily cost as much as buying a lightly used modern car!

[Malevy]

I agree with Marc. The only advantage that *I* could see to going to the intercooled/EFI turbo setup would be that there would be less custom fabrication, and the physical installation would be less complex. But certainly nowhere near simple, and I feel that if you could do all that, you could do the swap. Paying someone else to do the work for either project would easily cost as much as buying a lightly used modern car!

I agree with Marc too. Another point for a swap is reliability.. For example, an unmodified LS will be more reliable than a modified PRV with forced induction.

[FABombjoy]

The only advantage that *I* could see to going to the intercooled/EFI turbo setup would be that there would be less custom fabrication, and the physical installation would be less complex
I did it for the learning experience, and because it was fun, and to have a one-of-a-kind setup. Plus I have no place to store even half a drivetrain, so I could do most of the conversion in situ.

Based on recorded IATs, at 6-7psi I think an intercooler may only interfere with throttle response. I worked one in but just running water/akly injection would probably do more for you. But now it's too late and I'm going to throw ducting and a pusher fan on it to be PWM controlled from Megasquirt.

I did everything I could to make K-jet turbo work like modern EFI and it was a colossal waste of time and resources.

I gained a bit of respect for the PRV after seeing what kinds of stupid shit k-jet will do depending on the weather or mood.
I had k-jet AFRs tuned decently in the summer/fall only to have it lean out about 2 full points on a 25F day. It went to 13.6:1 at non-intercooled 7.5PSI. No sounds of detonation and an inspection showed no damage. Not worth the concern so EFI was the only way to go.

I would love to LS swap but would want to add a care bears mode if another family member were to drive.

[David T]

Reliability can only be as good as the craftsmanship of the work. That goes for all of the engine swaps and mods. And if you overdo the HP you will decrease the longevity of the transaxle, the next weak link. As for the expense, it is going to far less expensive and a whole lot quicker (and more reliable) to just get a faster car. IMHO the cheapest way to get the most HP in a Delorean is a turbo and to make it better add EFI. For short sprints you don't need intercoolers but water/meth injection is probably a good idea. If you recall, this was the concept behind the collaboration of DMC and Legend Industries. They wanted to improve performance and the easiest way to go was to put two turbos on the car. Of course they had to be concerned with emissions certification, warranties and reliability, none of this is important to owners doing engine swaps.

[opethmike]

I agree with Marc too. Another point for a swap is reliability.. For example, an unmodified LS will be more reliable than a modified PRV with forced induction.

Talking to yourself, lol?

There are a few things I would consider mandatory reliability mods to an LS while it is waiting on a stand (oil pump, trunion bearings).

[opethmike]

Reliability can only be as good as the craftsmanship of the work. That goes for all of the engine swaps and mods. And if you overdo the HP you will decrease the longevity of the transaxle, the next weak link. As for the expense, it is going to far less expensive and a whole lot quicker (and more reliable) to just get a faster car. IMHO the cheapest way to get the most HP in a Delorean is a turbo and to make it better add EFI. For short sprints you don't need intercoolers but water/meth injection is probably a good idea. If you recall, this was the concept behind the collaboration of DMC and Legend Industries. They wanted to improve performance and the easiest way to go was to put two turbos on the car. Of course they had to be concerned with emissions certification, warranties and reliability, none of this is important to owners doing engine swaps.

I acknowledge that you have written a comment.

[Michael]

I acknowledge that you have written a comment.

David has what we call a "Firm grasp on the obvious".

[opethmike]

David has what we call a "Firm grasp on the obvious".

I'd like to firmly grasp you in a hug.

[Michael]

I'd like to firmly grasp you in a hug.

Is there any other way?

[Michael]

...it is going to far less expensive and a whole lot quicker (and more reliable) to just get a faster car.

LOL..in other words, just get any other car. Go outside and throw a rock, whatever car it hits will be faster and more reliable,...buy it.

Open the classifieds. Close your eyes and point. The car your finger lands on will be faster and more reliable, buy it.

Offer to trade with the first person that wants a DeLorean, the car you get will be faster and more reliable.

There may be other ways, but you did want the "easiest".

[opethmike]

LOL..in other words, just get any other car. Go outside and throw a rock, whatever car it hits will be faster and more reliable,...buy it.

Open the classifieds. Close your eyes and point. The car your finger lands on will be faster and more reliable, buy it.

Offer to trade with the first person that wants a DeLorean, the car you get will be faster and more reliable.

There may be other ways, but you did want the "easiest".

I wanted a faster car, so I bought a faster car. Then I bought another faster car. Then I made my DeLorean faster.

[Malevy]

I did everything I could to make K-jet turbo work like modern EFI and it was a colossal waste of time and resources.


Hmm.. Legend did it back in 1981.



I would love to LS swap but would want to add a care bears mode if another family member were to drive.

MegaSquirt can do that.



If you recall, this was the concept behind the collaboration of DMC and Legend Industries. They wanted to improve performance and the easiest way to go was to put two turbos on the car. Of course they had to be concerned with emissions certification, warranties and reliability, none of this is important to owners doing engine swaps.

And Fred Dellis was quoted as saying when they bolted turbos up to a stock DeLorean PRV, it blew up. There is a reason they spent so much time and money developing new engine internals.


Talking to yourself, lol?

Yes, it is the best way to grantee intelligent conversation!

[dodint]

No one has dyno’d before and after getting a stage 2?

I bought my car with Stage 2 and it got 114hp on the dyno.

[opethmike]

Yes, it is the best way to grantee intelligent conversation!

guarantee* :) :) :)

Well, as long as you don't lose an argument to yourself; 'cause I've lost arguments to myself before and it is embarrassing.


Lotus also did turbo with KJet for the 86 & 87 HCi Esprits. But the implementation is SUPER complex, and absolutely not optimized for when driving in anything but boost. I think what Luke meant by his comment that the KJet/turbo combination is difficult to optimize across all driving conditions.

[About time]

OKOK, so let me post this possibility.

A person drives his/her D and the engine has a total failure, engine needs replacing, period.

What do you go with that will give you 200 or more HP and fits without going nuts with mods/cost? Assume all work has to be done at a speed shop or DMC itself?

[Malevy]

OKOK, so let me post this possibility.

A person drives his/her D and the engine has a total failure, engine needs replacing, period.

What do you go with that will give you 200 or more HP and fits without going nuts with mods/cost? Assume all work has to be done at a speed shop or DMC itself?

I don't think "DMC Itself" (people still think the company in Houston has any connection to the original DeLorean Motor Company?!) will do an engine conversion yet.

There is nothing that will just drop in. Most cost effective way to get back on the road is to fix/replace your stock DMC engine.

If you want to pay someone to do an engine conversion for you, I know of a great shop with lots of experience (specifically with DeLoreans) in New Jersey.. :)

[Malevy]

guarantee* :) :) :)

Really smart people spell it grantee.

[FABombjoy]

Hmm.. Legend did it back in 1981.
From the materials I have reviewed I don't think it worked very well. But there is a lot of pen-on-paper theory and I don't really know what was in prototype when they folded.

Out of curiosity, as these had not been worked out by 11/16/81:
-Does your engine have the solenoid controlled enrichment via the WUR?
-Does your distributor have a push-pull advance/retard mechanism?

I suspect that half the reason they upgraded the pistons / head bolts / head gaskets was to provide better resistance to poor engine management.

Their knock-based boost control system is also a unique approach to compensating for bad fuel.

I understand what they were working with at the time and don't mean to sound disparaging. I just wish there was a little more released publicly about the Legend cars because it's historically interesting stuff, even if people find out Legend cars only cross the '1320 at 89MPH.

[Farrar]

OKOK, so let me post this possibility.

A person drives his/her D and the engine has a total failure, engine needs replacing, period.

What do you go with that will give you 200 or more HP and fits without going nuts with mods/cost? Assume all work has to be done at a speed shop or DMC itself?

How fast do you want to spend?

DMC will not give you an engine swap that does not involve a 2.8L PRV. DMC will give you a 2.8L PRV with or without modifications for more power.

A speed shop will give you whatever you can pay for.

This merry-go-round has been running for a very, very long time.

If you plan to dyno your car a lot, get something with a ton of horsepower, make the engine compartment pretty, take your car to shows and watch kids wet themselves over your dyno numbers. If you plan to drive your car a lot, get something with a ton of low-end torque, take your car everywhere, and enjoy the ride. Thus endeth my 2¢.

[opethmike]

Really smart people spell it grantee.

Really sexy* people spell it grantee.

[About time]

I don't think "DMC Itself" (people still think the company in Houston has any connection to the original DeLorean Motor Company?!) will do an engine conversion yet.

There is nothing that will just drop in. Most cost effective way to get back on the road is to fix/replace your stock DMC engine.

If you want to pay someone to do an engine conversion for you, I know of a great shop with lots of experience (specifically with DeLoreans) in New Jersey.. :)

Assuming I get this car (still getting closer) I have no intention of spending thousands on a new engine, I'm just thinking, if I did need a new engine at some point and wanted more power that would be the smart time to make the swap.
A Delorean isn't a burner, and I wouldn't want to make it into one, just looking for the most reliable way to bump the HP without ruining the car frame etc.
I'm sure I'm not alone in asking for the shop name in NJ you're referring to. Thanks

[opethmike]

Assuming I get this car (still getting closer) I have no intention of spending thousands on a new engine, I'm just thinking, if I did need a new engine at some point and wanted more power that would be the smart time to make the swap.
A Delorean isn't a burner, and I wouldn't want to make it into one, just looking for the most reliable way to bump the HP without ruining the car frame etc.
I'm sure I'm not alone in asking for the shop name in NJ you're referring to. Thanks

Marc does work on DMCs along with his friend Tom. Message him, I'm sure he'll be glad to help you out.

FYI, I put an LS into my car without ruining the frame :) If 2.8L grenaded on you, the 'cheapest' way to get back on the road, along with a tiny bump in power, is putting in a 3.0L PRV.

[David T]

If you are faced with having to replace a blown PRV and you want more power the "path of least resistance" would be to get the Stage II from DMCH. If you already have a good PRV and want more power, turbos are an option. Any other engine swap either isn't going to get you much and/or will cost you a lot.

[opethmike]

If you are faced with having to replace a blown PRV and you want more power the "path of least resistance" would be to get the Stage II from DMCH. If you already have a good PRV and want more power, turbos are an option. Any other engine swap either isn't going to get you much and/or will cost you a lot.

I acknowledge that you have commented in this thread.

[Gfrank]

If you are faced with having to replace a blown PRV and you want more power the "path of least resistance" would be to get the Stage II from DMCH. If you already have a good PRV and want more power, turbos are an option. Any other engine swap either isn't going to get you much and/or will cost you a lot.

Granted I’m not done, so can say I’m full of shit if you wish, but I’m calling bs on the last part. My swap will cost less then half a stage 2, and have a min 100hp over one. Granted a lot comes down to personal skill and who you know

[Malevy]

Out of curiosity, as these had not been worked out by 11/16/81:
-Does your engine have the solenoid controlled enrichment via the WUR?
-Does your distributor have a push-pull advance/retard mechanism?

My Legend TT, 1860 does not have any of the custom electronics that were designed to control boost. My install uses vacuum/boost controlled waste gates. Admittedly, I keep the waste gates adjusted so the boost stays pretty low.. It is just not worth the risk to me to damage an engine that I can't get spare parts for.

I think my car may have a modified CPR. The previous owner actually installed a supplemental EFI system on it, but once I got the engine running properly I found it was not needed and removed it. It is possible he was trying to run higher boost levels than I am.

Grady had some of the electronics Legend had made. I don't know which (if any) car it was used on. John or Chris may be able to shed more light on this.




I understand what they were working with at the time and don't mean to sound disparaging. I just wish there was a little more released publicly about the Legend cars because it's historically interesting stuff, even if people find out Legend cars only cross the '1320 at 89MPH.

Meeting Fred a few times, he specifically said he did not want his information published publicly. Honestly, I don't understand it- but it is his prerogative. I imagine it is more of an emotional choice. That said, I have looked at a lot of his document, and did get copies of some of them from another source (through another Legend employee). Some of the documents talk about tricks to control fuel enrichment without any fancy technology. Most of the custom electronics were an effort at boost control and to control knock.

I do agree with you, modern EFI would have made the Legend effort better.


if I did need a new engine at some point and wanted more power that would be the smart time to make the swap.

Why are you planning on needing a new engine? Is there something about this particular car that has you concerned? 2 things will kill a PRV.. Overheating (can sometimes be repaired), and block rot.


I'm sure I'm not alone in asking for the shop name in NJ you're referring to. Thanks


Marc does work on DMCs along with his friend Tom. Message him, I'm sure he'll be glad to help you out.

What Mike said.. Tom and I work on all sorts of cars on a part-time basis, DeLoreans are always in the shop. Lots of custom work too, we did a lot of work on the DMC-24 as well.

https://www.facebook.com/Tom.Garage/


If you are faced with having to replace a blown PRV and you want more power the "path of least resistance" would be to get the Stage II from DMCH. If you already have a good PRV and want more power, turbos are an option. Any other engine swap either isn't going to get you much and/or will cost you a lot.

Agree on "path of least resistance", and would go further to say it would probably help resale value more than a custom swap, but for someone looking to do a swap themselves I think it can be done for just as much or even less than a stage 2. Of course, there are ways of doing a "Stage 2" without buying all of the parts from the company in Houston. Doing it yourself can also be done on a budget.


Granted I’m not done, so can say I’m full of shit if you wish, but I’m calling bs on the last part. My swap will cost less then half a stage 2, and have a min 100hp over one. Granted a lot comes down to personal skill and who you know

What is your swap?

[David T]

For those of you considering an engine swap here is an engine for one! There has been one other known conversion using this engine.
https://sarasota.craigslist.org/pts/d/wauchula-unused-lotus-v8-turbo-engine/6802831857.html

[FABombjoy]

My Legend TT, 1860 does not have any of the custom electronics that were designed to control boost. My install uses vacuum/boost controlled waste gates. Admittedly, I keep the waste gates adjusted so the boost stays pretty low.. It is just not worth the risk to me to damage an engine that I can't get spare parts for.
Understandable. I suspect all of the issues related to legend motors knocking under boost are related to improper spark timing. That's why I'm curious about if the ignition distributor was modified.

It sounds like they got pretty far during testing without really modifying timing, which is crazy since you leave power on the table and induce knock.

I run an timing map that emulates the stock distributor with about -1 degree per lb, but I doubt that's optimal. I'd like the opportunity to schedule dyno time and get a tuned spark map.

[David T]

Don't know what Legend did for timing but the Island kit had the timing reset and the advance was limited. The boost was controlled directly with waste gate actuators hooked up with hoses right to the intake manifold. I would guess Legend was similar because the person who created the Island kit worked at Legend. All of the control was very rudimentary, at the time all they could really do was tinker with the settings. Now, with digital engine management, you can do what it took a whole department of engineers to do. You can have complete control over fuel, timing, and boost and do it safely. That means you do not have to hold the boost back to 5# to be safe under all conditions. You can tailor it so that you can maximize all of your engine parameters without fearing you will cause detonation. Same with the timing. IMHO an Island or BAE turbo kit with EFI can really take advantage of all a turbo can offer and do it safely today. This is turning out to be a great thread.

[opethmike]

Hey Dave, do you like turbos?

[Farrar]

For what it's worth, someone who has driven both a Stage II and my 3.0L said the 3.0L was comparable to the Stage II. The 3.0L swap cost thousands of dollars less, but I did not have to pay labor charges and my exhaust is homemade. Shop labor rates can run $200 in some places. If you do the work yourself, you can come out ahead, but if you get a shop to do it, including custom exhaust, the difference could actually be negligible, or the 3.0L could cost you more than the price of a Stage II.

It comes down to personal preference... which I think is the lesson of this thread. LOL

[mr_maxime]

Not nearly as represented, but does someone who has done one have any input on electric conversions?

[Malevy]

Understandable. I suspect all of the issues related to legend motors knocking under boost are related to improper spark timing. That's why I'm curious about if the ignition distributor was modified.

It sounds like they got pretty far during testing without really modifying timing, which is crazy since you leave power on the table and induce knock.


I don't think Legend left power on the table. Fred claimed they could easily exceed the 300HP target for the "Type S" DeLorean package. Biggest problem was blowing up gear boxes.



Not nearly as represented, but does someone who has done one have any input on electric conversions?

http://www.electricdelorean.com/

[opethmike]

It comes down to personal preference... which I think is the lesson of this thread. LOL

No. It comes down to LS swap.

[FABombjoy]

I don't think Legend left power on the table. Fred claimed they could easily exceed the 300HP target for the "Type S" DeLorean package.

vehicle ignition system development has been
limited to slight retard of basic engine timing in order
to eliminate detonation
This says to me that the spark map is not good and is probably hurting performance.

300 HP cocktail napkin math:
Legend baseline n/a engine: 127HP @ 5600 RPM
VE = 64.42%, 96g/s airflow

To make 300 net HP in that scenario you need 227g/s, around 240Kpa MAP, or about 20psi boost. That assumes 0 temperature increase so higher than that in the real world.
The RHB52 family seem to be generically good for around 180-200HP
300 is probably possible under ideal conditions but k-jet tuning becomes even more critical since primary pressure isn't compensated for intake manifold pressure.
At that pressure ratio the turbo exhaust configuration becomes a pretty big deal but "final prototype" specs aren't published.


Biggest problem was blowing up gear boxes.

Development testing of turbocharged vehicle no. 502 has
confirmed that we have exceeded the torque capacity of
the production clutch.
[...]
Implementation of this fix has been hindered by
the fact that no less than three different types of
transmission input shaft splines have been found on our
test vehicles.
I suspect they were breaking 10-spline input shafts which were likely cut, versus later 21-spline versions which were likely rolled. I've never heard of a 3rd style though, can anyone shed light on that?

[David T]

Lotus figured out how to push 250 HP through that gearbox. Of course they did limit boost in 1st gear. I remember Fred D telling us how they kept popping input shafts. Going to a one piece without the coupler and pin is probably the way to go. As I said in a previous post, an auto manufacturer must limit things because of warranty, emissions, and longevity issues. An owner doing a swap to get more power is not held back by such considerations. After the input shaft the next weak link is the final drive. Because in the Delorean application, (Lotus too) they flopped over the Crown gear so they would not have 5 speeds in reverse. That makes the pinon run the "wrong way" against the Crown wheel putting enormous stress on the teeth in the wrong direction. I have seen the teeth ripped off of the Crown wheel in a Lotus from "dropping the clutch" at high revs. Can't lie about that, just have to do a dump of the ECU to see what the RPM's vs road speed were. We just had a "group buy" for those who wanted the beefed up input shaft and re-engineered pinion and Crown wheel. Some also went for the Quaiffe limited slip diff. If you are tracking the car you are past the point that other systems can't keep up. Now you must upgrade the cooling system, brakes, and suspension. Pretty soon you are basically rebuilding the whole car. It's always more than just adding more HP.

[opethmike]

Lotus figured out how to push 250 HP through that gearbox. Of course they did limit boost in 1st gear. I remember Fred D telling us how they kept popping input shafts. Going to a one piece without the coupler and pin is probably the way to go. As I said in a previous post, an auto manufacturer must limit things because of warranty, emissions, and longevity issues. An owner doing a swap to get more power is not held back by such considerations. After the input shaft the next weak link is the final drive. Because in the Delorean application, (Lotus too) they flopped over the Crown gear so they would not have 5 speeds in reverse. That makes the pinon run the "wrong way" against the Crown wheel putting enormous stress on the teeth in the wrong direction. I have seen the teeth ripped off of the Crown wheel in a Lotus from "dropping the clutch" at high revs. Can't lie about that, just have to do a dump of the ECU to see what the RPM's vs road speed were. We just had a "group buy" for those who wanted the beefed up input shaft and re-engineered pinion and Crown wheel. Some also went for the Quaiffe limited slip diff. If you are tracking the car you are past the point that other systems can't keep up. Now you must upgrade the cooling system, brakes, and suspension. Pretty soon you are basically rebuilding the whole car. It's always more than just adding more HP.

250? No. Try 350. Lots and lots and lots and loooooooooots of V8 Esprits with blown up transmission.

[Nicholas R]

I suspect they were breaking 10-spline input shafts which were likely cut, versus later 21-spline versions which were likely rolled. I've never heard of a 3rd style though, can anyone shed light on that?

The failure of the input shafts doesn't have anything to do with the clutch spline pattern; it has to do with where the shaft splines into the coupler. Regardless of the clutch pattern, the splines going into the coupler are the same, and they're all rolled. The stock input shaft coupler (on both 10 and 21 splined gearboxes) is garbage. It's only partially splined, and it's significantly softer than the 2 shafts it's joining, both of which are case hardened.

And before anyone tries to make the BS "the coupler is a mechanical fuse and designed to fail" arguement; see below. This is what happens when a coupler fails; it takes the main shaft with it by breaking the end off. It's hardly a fuse when it destroys the most expensive part of the gearbox in the process. Also for reference, this failed gearbox is from a 100% stock PRV car; no performance enhancements:

5915959160591615916259163

[FABombjoy]

Ah, interesting. Thank you for providing actual data!

[Nicholas R]

After the input shaft the next weak link is the final drive. Because in the Delorean application, (Lotus too) they flopped over the Crown gear so they would not have 5 speeds in reverse. That makes the pinon run the "wrong way" against the Crown wheel putting enormous stress on the teeth in the wrong direction. I have seen the teeth ripped off of the Crown wheel in a Lotus from "dropping the clutch" at high revs. Can't lie about that, just have to do a dump of the ECU to see what the RPM's vs road speed were. We just had a "group buy" for those who wanted the beefed up input shaft and re-engineered pinion and Crown wheel. Some also went for the Quaiffe limited slip diff. If you are tracking the car you are past the point that other systems can't keep up. Now you must upgrade the cooling system, brakes, and suspension. Pretty soon you are basically rebuilding the whole car. It's always more than just adding more HP.

Are you saying the DeLorean differential is running on the wrong side of the differential teeth? Because if you are, you're wrong. Yes its true that versions of the 369/UN1 run in the reverse orientation, but the pinion & diffs are cut the opposite direction to run in those orientations. In the DeLorean, the teeth are cut to run in our rear-engine configuration. A hypoid gear has a drive and a coast side, and what you're saying would mean that the DeLoeran is running on the coast side of the gear. This is not true. The DeLorean loads the drive side of the hypoid gear as intended. See below:
59164
The outside of the curvature of the hypoid is the drive side; the inside is the coast side. We load the drive side.

For reference, here is a photo of an excerpt from the Renault R20 Service Manual, which uses a 369 gearbox in the front wheel drive configuration. You'll note that the differential crown gear is cut with the teeth in the reverse orientation because this is a FWD application.
59166
Conversely, below is an excerpt from the DMC service manual, which uses the 369 in the RWD config. The teeth are cut for RWD.
59167

The weak part of the differential is the not the crown and pinion, it's the shaft between the spider gears, and the fact that there are only 2 spider gears instead of 4. I've seen multiple instances of broken spider gear shafts.

The other weak part of the transmission is the cast aluminum case. Enough load and you'll crack the aluminum case where it holds the input shaft main bearing, and dislodge the whole input shaft. Ask me how I know... :burnout:

EDIT: Added service manual stuff.

[dn010]

The weak part of the differential is the not the crown and pinion, it's the shaft between the spider gears, and the fact that there are only 2 spider gears instead of 4. I've seen multiple instances of broken spider gear shafts.


I've had the unfortunate experience of having this spider gear shaft shatter where the pin goes through.

[David T]

We can disagree over which is the weakest point, they all are subject to failure under shock loads and heavy stresses. Don't forget the 5th gear overhanging on the rear. My point in bringing up the shortcomings of the transaxle is you can't just add HP without paying attention to other things too. And while the Renault trasnaxle was never meant for so much HP, there are ways to handle it. Lotus did. But not if you flog it or subject it to shock loads like letting a wheel spin and then catch or dumping the clutch at high revs. Yes, there are blown Renault transaxles in Lotus's, but abuse anything and you can break it. As for blown spider gears, I have seen many Deloreans running with little to no gear oil in the transaxle. It gets a little hard to shift but it keeps on going for a long time. If you are blowing spider gears either you had no oil in there or you were spinning a rear wheel and when it caught the shock loads killed it. Doesn't always happen right away, it is a cumulative affect and eventually it breaks. This stuff was not made for drag racing but if you insist on using it for that you will be buying a lot of expensive parts. Lotus too (those parts are a lot more expensive and harder to find!). Thanks for correcting me on the way the Crown wheel is loaded. I will check but it must be the wrong way in the Lotus application and not the Delorean.

[opethmike]

We can disagree over which is the weakest point, they all are subject to failure under shock loads and heavy stresses. Don't forget the 5th gear overhanging on the rear. My point in bringing up the shortcomings of the transaxle is you can't just add HP without paying attention to other things too. And while the Renault trasnaxle was never meant for so much HP, there are ways to handle it. Lotus did. But not if you flog it or subject it to shock loads like letting a wheel spin and then catch or dumping the clutch at high revs. Yes, there are blown Renault transaxles in Lotus's, but abuse anything and you can break it. As for blown spider gears, I have seen many Deloreans running with little to no gear oil in the transaxle. It gets a little hard to shift but it keeps on going for a long time. If you are blowing spider gears either you had no oil in there or you were spinning a rear wheel and when it caught the shock loads killed it. Doesn't always happen right away, it is a cumulative affect and eventually it breaks. This stuff was not made for drag racing but if you insist on using it for that you will be buying a lot of expensive parts. Lotus too (those parts are a lot more expensive and harder to find!). Thanks for correcting me on the way the Crown wheel is loaded. I will check but it must be the wrong way in the Lotus application and not the Delorean.

So is your idea of abusing the gearbox in a Lotus just driving the car normally? 'Cause plenty o' Esprits get driven without much vigor and still lunch gearboxes.

By the way, do you like turbos?

[dn010]

That makes the pinon run the "wrong way" against the Crown wheel putting enormous stress on the teeth in the wrong direction.



I'm still wondering when this will be addressed...

[DMC-81]

That makes the pinon run the "wrong way" against the Crown wheel putting enormous stress on the teeth in the wrong direction.


I'm still wondering when this will be addressed...

Lol. I think it has, by a mechanical engineer who just happened to design and commission both a bulletproof coupler and a one-piece input shaft for our gearbox. Of the 2 arguments, I tend to believe Nick....


Are you saying the DeLorean differential is running on the wrong side of the differential teeth? Because if you are, you're wrong. Yes its true that versions of the 369/UN1 run in the reverse orientation, but the pinion & diffs are cut the opposite direction to run in those orientations. In the DeLorean, the teeth are cut to run in our rear-engine configuration. A hypoid gear has a drive and a coast side, and what you're saying would mean that the DeLoeran is running on the coast side of the gear. This is not true. The DeLorean loads the drive side of the hypoid gear as intended. See below:
59164
The outside of the curvature of the hypoid is the drive side; the inside is the coast side. We load the drive side.

For reference, here is a photo of an excerpt from the Renault R20 Service Manual, which uses a 369 gearbox in the front wheel drive configuration. You'll note that the differential crown gear is cut with the teeth in the reverse orientation because this is a FWD application.
59166
Conversely, below is an excerpt from the DMC service manual, which uses the 369 in the RWD config. The teeth are cut for RWD.
59167

The weak part of the differential is the not the crown and pinion, it's the shaft between the spider gears, and the fact that there are only 2 spider gears instead of 4. I've seen multiple instances of broken spider gear shafts.

The other weak part of the transmission is the cast aluminum case. Enough load and you'll crack the aluminum case where it holds the input shaft main bearing, and dislodge the whole input shaft. Ask me how I know... :burnout:

EDIT: Added service manual stuff.

[dn010]

Lol. I think it has, by a mechanical engineer who just happened to design and commission both a bulletproof coupler and a one-piece input shaft for our gearbox. Of the 2 arguments, I tend to believe Nick....



What I meant was, I was waiting to see what David had to say in response- his last post lacked any kind of response to Nick's regarding it. +1 though, I wouldn't challenge Nick at all when it comes to this stuff.

[DMC-81]

What I meant was, I was waiting to see what David had to say in response- his last post lacked any kind of response to Nick's regarding it.

Yeah, I know.:) I highlighted Nick's response again as unfortunately, I've seen this movie before.

[Malevy]

The RHB52 family seem to be generically good for around 180-200HP


Is that for a single turbo? or twin turbo?


Of interest, I just flipped through my Legend documents again, and found this (referencing failure during testing);

"Inspection revealed that the second and third ring lands had failed. This leads to the conclusion that piston failures have been caused by inadequate land strength, not thermal problems"

This is the point the decided to go with forged Venolia pistons and a special top ring with "scuff resistant plasma moly face coating".

The document includes a nice photo of the broken ring.

[opethmike]

Want me to take a look at your MS3.msq and see if I can figure out why you're running so rich?

[Malevy]

Want me to take a look at your MS3.msq and see if I can figure out why you're running so rich?

Done messing with it until spring, but thanks.

[FABombjoy]

Is that for a single turbo? or twin turbo?
Per turbo


Of interest, I just flipped through my Legend documents again, and found this (referencing failure during testing);

"Inspection revealed that the second and third ring lands had failed. This leads to the conclusion that piston failures have been caused by inadequate land strength, not thermal problems"
I think we're looking at the same documents. It's a big chunk for sure. I wish they detailed what kinds of conditions those failures were occurring at. Opening the ring gap coupled with accurate tuning would probably have helped preserve the stock pistons. I'm banking on the second anyway.


Ring land area is the focus of most of the pounding that knock gives a piston.

[opethmike]

Done messing with it until spring, but thanks.

Can I buy you a donut?

[About time]

As you can tell I am asking out of complete ignorance here, so....
With todays 4 cylinder turbo engines pumping out 240 HP and more is it easier to install one of them with it's own transmission. Or does going that route open a whole new can of worms?

[jangell]

The problem with doing another transmission is that the DeLorean is rear engine and rear wheel drive, and the engine behind the transmission setup is basically the opposite of nearly every other car on the road. If you could fit another engine/transmission pair, it would be mounted backwards relative to the donor car, and you'd have five gears in reverse.

I'd love to get just about any other automatic in my DeLorean, but it seems there really aren't any practical options.

All of this means that you're probably stuck with the original transmission and can only really swap the engine. Others here have mentioned that the design of the engine cradle mean that V-style engines fit most easily. I'm definitely not an expert here (I went with the "simple" 3.0L swap), and maybe you could figure out how to fit an inline four. But you'd still probably have to hook up it up to the stock transmission.

-- Joe

[AugustneverEnds]

The problem with doing another transmission is that the DeLorean is rear engine and rear wheel drive, and the engine behind the transmission setup is basically the opposite of nearly every other car on the road. If you could fit another engine/transmission pair, it would be mounted backwards relative to the donor car, and you'd have five gears in reverse.

I'd love to get just about any other automatic in my DeLorean, but it seems there really aren't any practical options.

All of this means that you're probably stuck with the original transmission and can only really swap the engine. Others here have mentioned that the design of the engine cradle mean that V-style engines fit most easily. I'm definitely not an expert here (I went with the "simple" 3.0L swap), and maybe you could figure out how to fit an inline four. But you'd still probably have to hook up it up to the stock transmission.

-- Joe

Never done an engine swap and have no plans to but a Porsche 911 transmission, same rear engine/rear wheel drive should work. You and I are more limited by our automatics in comparison to manuals.

[opethmike]

I think a Porsche gearbox is what Marc Levy used for his?

[jangell]

A Porsche 911 transmission is pretty much the only option, as I understand it. I've heard that it even bolts right up to the DeLorean axles, although I'm less clear on how hard it is to mate it to the engine. However, they seem to cost as much as a DeLorean transmission, and for some reason I thought they weren't much more reliable either. So not much of an upgrade in that sense, other than the extra power they can handle and presumably more gears. If I'm wrong about the reliability and cost, and if it easily bolts to the axles and engine, I'd be happy to try the next time my automatic fails (I'm getting really tired of replacing them).

-- Joe

[Gfrank]

The problem with doing another transmission is that the DeLorean is rear engine and rear wheel drive, and the engine behind the transmission setup is basically the opposite of nearly every other car on the road. If you could fit another engine/transmission pair, it would be mounted backwards relative to the donor car, and you'd have five gears in reverse.

I'd love to get just about any other automatic in my DeLorean, but it seems there really aren't any practical options.

All of this means that you're probably stuck with the original transmission and can only really swap the engine. Others here have mentioned that the design of the engine cradle mean that V-style engines fit most easily. I'm definitely not an expert here (I went with the "simple" 3.0L swap), and maybe you could figure out how to fit an inline four. But you'd still probably have to hook up it up to the stock transmission.

-- Joe

Of course it depends on the engine, but my 4 pretty much mounted itself. Tons of room to fiddle and no cutting to frame. For me no real reason to ditch the un1

[AugustneverEnds]

If I'm wrong about the reliability and cost, and if it easily bolts to the axles and engine, I'd be happy to try the next time my automatic fails (I'm getting really tired of replacing them)
-- Joe

Out of morbid curiosity how many times has your automatic failed?

[jangell]

I’ve had the car for over 15 years, and I’m on the fifth.

The original had been rebuilt before I got it with the wrong torque converter. It failed in a few months.

The next one died due to low fluid, because I didn’t know that they leaked all the times

The third one died due to a weld breaking inside the transmission. I was able to limp it to a shop in first gear.

I’m not sure what failed in the fourth one, but I lost all gears in a matter of minutes in outer Boston traffic.

But the fifth one, it stands! So far...

— Joe

[opethmike]

Have you tried hugging the transmission?

[SamHill]

Hoping that electric conversions become affordable alternatives in the next 10-15 years.

[opethmike]

Hoping that electric conversions become affordable alternatives in the next 10-15 years.

Have you tried hugging the conversion?

[David T]

I think the reason the final drive is "going the correct way" in a Delorean as opposed to the Lotus, in a Lotus the engine is mounted in front of the transaxle making the car mid-engined (the motor is in front of the rear wheels). That, and the direction of rotation of the motor is what causes the final drive to be spun the "wrong way". Not a problem in a Delorean. Yes, the biggest problem with engine swaps in a Delorean is the very limited choices among transaxles. If you don't use the Renault transaxle about the only other choice is the Porsche and they are not easy to find and are expensive. Newer ones have computers you have to deal with so you need to find an old one. Electric conversions are becoming more and more popular and don't require a transmission. The motor is the cheap part, the batteries and electronics to run it are the expensive part! Because electric cars have such limited range and the batteries are so expensive, (and it takes so long to recharge them) right now hybrid is the way to go so you can charge the batteries as you drive. Dave Delman's car only has a range of 25 miles. Bob Brandies's car has more range but he spent a LOT more on batteries and electronics. I think he also has regenerative braking.

If we add electric conversions to engine swaps maybe we need another thread for that.

[About time]

Of course it depends on the engine, but my 4 pretty much mounted itself. Tons of room to fiddle and no cutting to frame. For me no real reason to ditch the un1

Not knowing you, tell me about your "4"? 4 cyl?

[Gfrank]

Not knowing you, tell me about your "4"? 4 cyl?


Gm ecotec, 2.2L with a turbo

[Josh]

lots of different porsche gearboxes out there.

A couple different types have been used in deloreans

[About time]

Gm ecotec, 2.2L with a turbo

I did a quick search and came up empty, any chance you have a link to your swap, I'd like to read up on it?

[Farrar]

Renault 4141 used in automatic DMC-12s was used in a lot of FWD applications. For DeLorean they flipped the ring gear and it became a RWD transaxle. Ta-dah, engineering magic! LOL

Biggest problem I could see with using a modern turbo engine/transaxle combination would be integrating the computer modules. My daily has a turbo 4 producing 230 HP & 245 lb/ft of torque. It also has six computer modules, all of which talk to each other. It is also going to turn 13 years old this year; I am sure that by now things have become even more computerized.

LS swaps are going to become so common that eventually people will be bored with them. Back when I was a teenager I went to some car shows. The number of Chevy 350s crammed into old cars and trucks was pretty high. (I even saw an S-10 with a 350 in it. Didn't handle very well, but was really good at smoking tires.) Eventually it got to the point where you were just counting the 350 swaps. (Except for the smaller engine compartments, which had Buick V6s in them.) I'm sure that the LS swap is going to be the new 350 swap, if it isn't already...

[opethmike]

Renault 4141 used in automatic DMC-12s was used in a lot of FWD applications. For DeLorean they flipped the ring gear and it became a RWD transaxle. Ta-dah, engineering magic! LOL

Biggest problem I could see with using a modern turbo engine/transaxle combination would be integrating the computer modules. My daily has a turbo 4 producing 230 HP & 245 lb/ft of torque. It also has six computer modules, all of which talk to each other. It is also going to turn 13 years old this year; I am sure that by now things have become even more computerized.

LS swaps are going to become so common that eventually people will be bored with them. Back when I was a teenager I went to some car shows. The number of Chevy 350s crammed into old cars and trucks was pretty high. (I even saw an S-10 with a 350 in it. Didn't handle very well, but was really good at smoking tires.) Eventually it got to the point where you were just counting the 350 swaps. (Except for the smaller engine compartments, which had Buick V6s in them.) I'm sure that the LS swap is going to be the new 350 swap, if it isn't already...

Oh it already is, lol

[Michael]

Oh it already is, lol

Another looser DeLorean with LS swap. Boring, unimaginative, everybody agrees with me. Sad

[opethmike]

Another looser DeLorean with LS swap. Boring, unimaginative, everybody agrees with me. Sad

I'll just be over here; sadly driving to 60 in less than 4 seconds... <cry cry cry>

[mr_maxime]

I heard people started putting ls motors in those things cause the stock motor couldnt even get that 5000lb stainless car to 60mph.

[Michael]

I'll just be over here; sadly driving to 60 in less than 4 seconds... <cry cry cry>

You can try but you can't run from your mistakes.

[Nicholas R]

You can try but you can't run from your mistakes.

Unless you have more horsepower than your mistakes... which now Mike has :burnout::burnout::burnout:

[nullset]

I heard people started putting ls motors in those things cause the stock motor couldnt even get that 5000lb stainless car to 60mph.

Everyone knows the stock delorean is quite a bit of slug so the turbo is a super nice up grayed

[Mark D]

up grayed

https://www.reddit.com/r/BoneAppleTea/

[Michael]

Conversions...puhhlease. You non kjetters will never again know the thrill of wondering if your DeLorean will start with a crowd of starstruck onlookers livestreaming your folly.

[DMC-81]

Conversions...puhhlease. You non kjetters will never again know the thrill of wondering if your DeLorean will start with a crowd of starstruck onlookers livestreaming your folly.

:hysterical:

[Mark D]

Conversions...puhhlease. You non kjetters will never again know the thrill of wondering if your DeLorean will start with a crowd of starstruck onlookers livestreaming your folly.

Nahh, You're forgetting they will still have the thrill of wondering if leaving the doors open for an extended period combined with normal parasitic power loss has sufficiently drawn the battery down so that it won't crank over. :bigcry:

[AugustneverEnds]

Nahh, You're forgetting they will still have the thrill of wondering if leaving the doors open for an extended period combined with normal parasitic power loss has sufficiently drawn the battery down so that it won't crank over. :bigcry:

Even with LEDs? I've left my doors up for six hours straight without a problem. I did have the ignominy of being observed when my starter solenoid decided to take a lunch break and I had to crawl under in a nice shirt to jump it with pliers

[David T]

As far as reliability is concerned, a well maintained K-Jet system can be as reliable as any conversion with two caveats, it needs to be used at least once in a while and you can't let any dirt or stale fuel into it. This applies to any fuel system.

[Michael]

As far as reliability is concerned, a well maintained K-Jet system can be as reliable as any conversion with two caveats, it needs to be used at least once in a while and you can't let any dirt or stale fuel into it. This applies to any fuel system.

Well I was an idiot to expect the concept of humor to strike everyone here equally.

[CFI]

Conversions...puhhlease. You non kjetters will never again know the thrill of wondering if your DeLorean will start with a crowd of starstruck onlookers livestreaming your folly.

Lol I tell my wife that’s part of the excitement of owning a DeLorean. Will it start?:umm::burnout::partyhat:

[David T]

When I first got my car it was like that. You never knew if you would be driving it back home or not. After the second time, my wife would not go out anywhere in the car till it was perfect. Most women expect a car to do at least the very minimum and get you to where you want to go AND BACK. When a hose burst on the A/C and it didn't work, by the time we got home (10 minutes) we were both drenched. Now, not only must the car be reliable, the A/C had better work too!

[Spittybug]

I see talk of turbos, but I never really see anyone talk about superchargers. Is there a reason for that? I realize that they take engine power to make engine power (due to being belt driven), but it seems a lot easier for a DIY'er to fab up a mounting bracket for a small supercharger and a Y pipe to the throttle body than it does to rework the exhaust for a turbo.

I've been toying around with the idea recently. Something like an Aisin SD12, which is pretty small and gives around 10 pounds of boost (although that would need to be gated down quite a lot to stay in the safe limits of the engine, even more so for me since I have an auto and need to stay under 200 ft/lb... so like 3-5 pounds, maybe?), and it has an electrically-controlled clutch so you can turn it off when you don't need it. Or an even smaller AMR300 or AMR500, although those don't have the clutch and would be on all the time. Any of these can be had for $300-$800 on eBay, but you'll have to figure out the mounting, the bypass valve, and the belt and air connections yourself. I already have EFI on my 3.0L, so boost control and overboost protection shouldn't be a problem.

Also, I learned most of these words in the last week or so, so I probably still don't know what I'm talking about. :)

-- Joe

I've wondered the same. I even went so far as to buy an ebay G-Lader scroll type supercharger. It was from a VW Corrado, a smaller engine than ours. The idea was to mount it above the alternator. I had already replumbed the radiator reservoir to the other side of the car. I wouldn't want to go more than just a few pounds of boost and my back of the envelope calculations told me that I could get there even with this smaller SC. I got cold feet when I started to run into the reality of the rebuild cost (a must for a used, old SC) and no guarantees that I could get the setup working by myself. I still have the parts and may still go down that path one day..... Having an EFI system is definitely a must in my opinion. The ability to ensure adequate fueling and proper timing based on engine load would be key to avoiding issues.

I've always thought that our cars simply need those few seconds of boosting for good acceleration. I'm perfectly happy driving down the highway at 75 or 80 and don't need more engine there. It's the desire to have that g-force acceleration down low that I think most people want. We all know that the electric fan type "turbos" (Chinese crap on ricer sites) don't do squat. But in that vein, who hasn't marveled at the thrust coming out of today's modern hand dryers in public restrooms? WOW, they are forceful and voluminous. They come on nearly instantly too. What if something like that could be mounted like a super charger and have its own power source like some big capacitors or small battery? The idea would be to constantly charge the unit under normal driving but allow it to rapidly discharge when the unit needed to come on for a few seconds during acceleration events. Those of us with EFI control can look at our logs and see when the acceleration enhancement boost of fuel gets applied; it isn't very long in duration..... a big rush of forced air and a squirt of gas would do wonders for acceleration. No monkeying with exhaust and no parasitic supercharger. Think of it like a nitro boost. I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable about the power requirements or the actual output of those air units, but next time you see one, try blocking off the airflow and tell me that isn't impressive and might not work?

[FABombjoy]

You have to both move a lot of air and compress it. 200HP needs about 140CFM but all of the 140CFM fans you can buy won't help :D Purpose-build eSuperchargers don't seem available at the levels needed to be worth the effort (150kW?).

If you want power once in a while put a N2O system on it. Properly tuned it would be easier on the motor than either supercharging or turbocharging.

A properly sized turbo with a boost controller is surprisingly responsive. The BAE & Island setups running boost reference right in to wastegates w/ 5lb springs is going to be laggy. And since the ignition isn't properly controlled, adding even a basic manual boost valve to either setup would be dangerous.

[Spittybug]

I think something like this as an aftermarket item will end up being the answer.....https://www.facebook.com/orbiswheels/videos/185245885745552/ It's not there quite yet, but soon I think.

[jangell]

That's interesting -- it seems like it's everything but the electric motor, meaning you still need to find a place to put that. On their site they mention that for a Honda Civic Type R they removed the rear seats to fit the two 50 HP electric motorcycle motors they used. In a DMC setup you'd attach them to the front wheels, which makes me wonder how the electric motors would be connected. Here's their main site: https://orbisdriven.com

I saw something a few years back that was sort of similar, but clunkier. It was an electric motor assembly that mounted on the outside of your wheel, and would give you another 30 or so HP per wheel. It was mostly a way to retrofit a car into a hybrid gas/electric, albeit in a Mad Max kind of way. It required limited modifications to the car, and charged itself when braking, or something like that (it's been a while).

Electric motors entirely contained within the wheel is the holy grail of electric conversions as far as I'm concerned. Then the entire engine bay and transmission area can be filled with batteries (or you can distribute them between the trunk and engine if you want more of a 50/50 weight distribution), and from there it's just a matter of running some wires to the wheels. This company is working on them (100 HP per wheel), but I have no idea when we'll see anything like this on the market: https://www.proteanelectric.com/protean-drive/#overview (other details here: https://www.nanalyze.com/2014/03/proteans-unique-100hp-in-wheel-electric-motor/ ). The main question is how to actually mount such a thing onto a DMC, and for them to make them a bit smaller than the 18"-24" wheel design they have at the moment. Other companies are working on this, too, so if it pans out we might have some options in the next decade.

-- Joe

[David T]

Mounting an electric motor within each wheel may seem to be a simple, intuitive solution, but it has problems. It adds to the "Unsprung Weight" and the suspension has to deal with the torque and braking loads. You also need to handle differential speeds while turning. The easier way is to retain the differential and mount the motor to it. As for putting in a Supercharger verses a turbo, mounting it is a problem, it robs HP especially where you need it the most (low RPM's). A turbo gets "free" power that would otherwise be lost and if it can spool quickly lag is minimized. What you see most of today is smaller displacement motors using turbos as opposed to what you saw years back, large displacement with superchargers. One way to get around lag is to use 2 smaller turbos instead of one large turbo. The BAE setup used one large turbo, the Island setup has 2 smaller turbos. Smaller turbos are easier to mount and because they have less mass, can spool up faster. I agree, the main problem with both turbo setups was control. The ultimate would be a full-blown engine management system controlling fuel, ignition, timing, and boost. That is how modern cars get so much power out of such small motors reliably.

[jangell]

Unsprung weight specifically came up in some of the articles about these in-wheel motors. They mention that the entire assembly with tire wights about 100 pounds, and includes regenerative braking. Still more than a normal tire/wheel/brake setup, but possibly manageable.

The differential shouldn't be much of an issue, as some fairly simple software adjust each motor's speed based on steering wheel angle. If you're feeling particularly trusting of your software, you could do some pretty advanced traction control and antilock regenerative braking as well, but you'd want to test the hell out of anything like that before going anywhere near a road.

We're still years out from this being remotely practical simply due to the lack of availability of these motors, but it looks promising.

-- Joe

[mr_maxime]

I did some looking to see how much a Tesla motor would cost. Turns out someone stuffed one in his 81 accord, but now he's also working on an electric delorean. Still looking for more info on it.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BtZS_ltHbNw/?utm_source=ig_web_options_share_sheet

[Farrar]

Is that the "TesLorean" ...?

[mr_maxime]

Maybe. I only found small bits of info from instagram. The accord is the teslonda. The DeLorean uses a leaf motor though.

[opethmike]

Engine swaps ruin value, and destroy purity. People that respect the DeLorean don't do engine swaps.

[Michael]

Engine swaps ruin value, and destroy purity. People that respect the DeLorean don't do engine swaps.

https://img1.etsystatic.com/023/0/8451796/il_fullxfull.490031437_kf1t.jpg

[Chris_Von_Bron]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/8t-d4XZJOJzuKnX6wr-dtFRUkYuXI-mq7Qzvh1vxbCBg8MukZzOb4zHvVGYuiG0R9X6Cmwavafp70bOU tIhOnpEVMs7VIJpEKyGw-CuTPtAQkicJeWO3xKaayXR1v0I6iPLq8tK1vG0Vb4mbtdsHEl_ 4eLfh2iax0YIwLbWwj1Pftd0asXQnFP-FiYzYItMARjbrzF9PGJAXeT3Ft3zydhz1hXry7poT7_Ty93g_W 68xSf5bQHzI5zbLO3NFw1gxjE0TmFPmNlRp-gChk6__UlxgXCtBqBTTsXw2o3vBtj4-irB4eMrNdOERCcF5TS9SOdia-0NMoDTpC3DE1qzc-qPg_MICLo-FstJk7tWRZxnmaO-iQRfjOKXezRdWRFZwF6w7K3fTvLQkp_4IJ8SYtfCY-9yvl39XgeLzOaPGI6C9VridCAUtjSx3H_9QteRJ7PmPn0GfoxB sz5vqt9uv7zrp8k4wcc4YkwQAN3yuGNLGm22DrVtJpk5z5FeEA o0Ywg9u4Vea7bfn_vRg2PpnkOJeJ1pOFEsz18_FqA8XFNljEnW GnsEvgEC0uJOsVD0gvXP1ieP5CKQ9N1Kbj0AsypOG_RXj1YSuJ DkuiTVHIl23dr9dQRCh09m3iLcdI75eLWaQko0UCSdSNtUA2Wi rWl75IAEheD8=w1560