New Overheating Issue and Growing Laundry list of Frustration

[Boxbot]

I purchased my car last fall under the impression that it "needed nothing," but anticipated I'd have to do some minor things. After purchasing, I learned the "new" door solenoids sometimes wouldn't unlock once locked - so I wasn't comfortable taking it places as I couldn't reliably lock it. Today, after a few weeks of not using it, I charged the battery (another problem) and let the car idle for a while. Looking over at the dash after a few minutes of messing with the passenger door mechanicals, I saw the temp was at the top of the gauge and noticed that the fans hadn't kicked on. I immediately turned the car off, then put the key in accessory position w/heater on to try to dissipate the heat. A small bit of steam started to come out of the coolant reservoir, but hopefully I caught it in time before doing damage. If not, I guess I'll have to add head gasket to my list of problems. PO apparently replaced fan fail relay and put new fans on - but I'm finding a lot of stuff that was "done" was not done properly, so who knows. I had already ordered all coolant hoses and clamps with new water pump and gaskets because it had developed a significant coolant leak. Now I'm ordering a new otterstat and thermostat from DPI following this incident, but feel like I'm just throwing darts. Is there anything else I should be looking at?

I'm starting to get really frustrated as it seems like problems are constantly popping up and a lot of the stuff I thought was done has to be redone. Some other problems (more for venting than diagnosis, I guess):

1. Driver's door is slightly convex on roof - not so bad that it's noticeable in the front, but it is in the rear where it meets the T-panel. Concerned the torison bar might have been over-torqued or something.

2. DeLorean NW Wings A Loft remote door locks and solenoid were installed by PO, and will always click when key turned or fob button hit, but will sometimes not unlock on driver's side and sometimes not on passenger's side. Once they won't unlock, I cannot open from inside or outside and it requires removal of door panel to pull on rods to open the door. They don't seem to be sticking/not resetting at common trouble point I read about and the length of the rods appears to be taught, so I am not sure what the issue is.

3. DeloreanGo window regulators installed by PO. Passenger side is jammed in the up position. Motor and tube will react and move slightly with switch but window will not go down. Pushing it up causes the tube to bend out towards the outside of the door. Not sure if ruined or can be adjusted. When I took apart door, I found the tube between the motor and the window was being held in place with duct tape and a piece of wood so obviously something wasn't set up/aligned right.

4. DeloreanGo external LEDs installed by PO don't seem to have a good connection. One rear tail light and now one rear side marker flicker and require tapping the plastic to turn on.

5. Windshield washer pump doesn't work. I have ordered a new one.

6. DMCH angle drive and dust cap were replaced by PO but speedo doesn't work. I have ordered a new kit from DMCH and a one piece cable from DeloreanGo to bypass Lambda counter.

7. Dome light and rear light when door open setting and seatbelt light/driver's door ajar light not working and are probably disconnected for some reason, but I can't find the wires. When buzzer is connected, it does not shut off so it remains unplugged.

8. Rear louvre not latching shut - doesn't seem to line up with latch.

9. Glove box light not working. PO changed to LED. I ordered new bulb from DeloreanGo, but still doesn't work. No idea why or see any indication that switch is broken.

10. Inner part of binnacle has completely separated from exterior part and is sagging all around cluster.

11. PO cut seal on rear panel (where speakers and seatbelt are). Driver's side fits well and there is only a very minimal gap. Passenger side has very noticeable 1" inch gap and I don't see any way to correct other than maybe drilling small holes through panel and into the tub and screwing in place, which I'm sure is a bad idea. I think I saw some vendor was selling replacement strips, but don't see them available anymore.

12. A/C has been converted to r134 but does not hold a charge. I'll have to take to a shop to sort out the leak, but I'm bracing for a worst-case scenario there too.

13. Battery drain - discharges at absurd rate. Unplugged door lights but that didn't resolve issue.


Annnnnyhow ... If anyone has any quick links that I should check out about any of this crap, or teach me some sort of mantra about ownership, that would be great - This overheating episode is just the proverbial straw as I keep getting further away from something that I can enjoy. Now, I can't drive at all for the moment for fear of overheating.

[DMC-81]

Hi there,

A lot of the issues seem to be electrical. What is the state of your wiring, connectors, etc. Is there a corrosion? Pictures are helpful.

For example, the overheating issue could be as simple as a corroded otterstat connection.

The bowing on the doors is due to early doors that don't have the extra structural reinforcements of later doors. I understand that leaving them open for a long time eventually causes the bowing. I have an early car as well, and because of this, I never leave the doors open for very long, (especially at shows). But, in addition to the natural situation with early doors, perhaps the PO torqued them up to aid the Wings a loft system. Do the doors seem to open with a lot of force and bounce at the top? A video would help.

Yes, there is a fix for the cut interior panel. Thankfully, my PO didn't cut them, but I had a split on the top portion of the passenger side, and I was able to fix it without resorting to the dreaded screws through the panel. I think I have pictures in my interior restoration album. I'll find them and post.

Keep your chin up! :) I think most of these things are relatively minor, so, I would take one thing at a time. It's easy to get overwhelmed if you don't. There are lots of people here that have been there and are willing to help.

[Jonathan]

These laundry lists of frustrations are no fun, no argument there. Had a dandy of my own in the first few years I had my car. And like you, I thought I was getting "the cleanest car our used manager has ever seen" that didn't need anything. Not exactly the case and some pretty awful experiences early on. Manageable though and like Dana said, better to try and tackle one thing at a time.

I would focus on the overheating issue first and leave the cosmetic stuff (binnacle, interior panels, louvre latch) for later. Some of those issues do sound all related to electrical problems and you may solve more than one at a time once you start digging into them.

Pictures are of value here and taking some of the fuse and relay area behind the passenger seat might be a good place to start. And the engine bay as well, from above and also from under if you can get an angle on the otterstat location and wiring. Getting those cooling fans to turn on AT ALL is the first step and then figuring out if or why they aren't turning on when they're needed is step two.

If you're already familiar with how to take the inside door panels off looking at internals, then that's good. Good chance your battery drain issue is related to the door locks or poppers or something similar. You can pretty easily disconnect just the electrical portion of those door locks and go manual for the time being. That'll let you keep a battery charged overnight and also let you park it somewhere without fear of it being unlocked.

These cars can really suck the fun right out of you when the problems keep piling up so lets not let that happen.

[SamHill]

Tackle the last one first and get a battery cut off.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Pull your fan relay and fan fail jumpers and verify all the pins in the socket are seated. Another common fault are the two diodes that drive the fan relay.

It's best to jumper the otterstat and with the key on, wiggle the diode connections and relay connections to find marginal conditions. So if the fans start and stop you can narrow down a bad connection.

[Boxbot]

Thanks, guys:

Trying to respond to all:

Electrical
History: searched through receipts. PO installed "Fan Relay Circuit Fused Wire Link, 40A circuit breaker, heavy duty accessory relay" and all new fuses from Delorean Go and "radiator cooling fan and motor" from DMCH. Photos of fuse box are attached.

Re: battery cutoff, I haven't yet purchased because I'm concerned the one that goes behind the passenger seat might get bumped and shut off power while driving. Maybe this is not something that could really occur - I'm also not wild about resetting clock and radio constantly. Has anyone worked out a relatively simple workaround to those issues, or do I just have to bite the bullet? When I got the car in November, I would notice weak starts if it sat for a week. Now the battery seems to die after a few hours.

Cooling
Photos of engine bay and what I think is the otterstat attached. Coolant leaks from what looks like behind the original water pump. I hope new pump and gaskets and hoses all around do the trick.

Cosmetics
I would love if you can find any sort of "cure" for the rear interior panel and let me know. As far as the doors go, they open relatively easily and both have new struts, but the driver's side seems to open easier than the passenger. It's not so effortless that it "bounces," however. Is there any fix for these? I'm imagining I'll have to go visit Grady at some point. I haven't been to any DMA events yet, but hopefully my car will be in shape to meet up in April when they have their annual "door alignment party."

5945859459594605946159462

[CFI]

My thoughts on a few of your issues:

1) The door skin problem is common, as mentioned.

2) The door latch/lock mechanisms can be finicky. Some people disable their locks entirely to avoid problems (that still doesn’t guarantee the latch won’t get stuck though). When mine acted up I removed, cleaned, reinstalled, and adjusted the latches.

4) The problem may not be the bulb. The tail light boards developed weak spots over time that cause one or two tail/brake lights to flicker.

6) The angle drive is a failure prone system and a few of us have bypassed it completely with a modern system

13) The door lock control module is a notorious battery drainer.

Stay positive. Old cars need time and patience to correct previous owner mistakes and wear and tear from old age.

[Boxbot]

Pull your fan relay and fan fail jumpers and verify all the pins in the socket are seated. Another common fault are the two diodes that drive the fan relay.

It's best to jumper the otterstat and with the key on, wiggle the diode connections and relay connections to find marginal conditions. So if the fans start and stop you can narrow down a bad connection.

Sorry, I'm not quite there with my terminology/knowledge yet. You're saying pull the blue relay in the photos and check the yellow fuses that are in it? And also wiggle red and green wires that are going to otterstat when car is at operating temp to see if it's just a short?

Thanks.

[Boxbot]

My thoughts on a few of your issues:

1) The door skin problem is common, as mentioned.

2) The door latch/lock mechanisms can be finicky. Some people disable their locks entirely to avoid problems (that still doesn’t guarantee the latch won’t get stuck though). When mine acted up I removed, cleaned, reinstalled, and adjusted the latches.

4) The problem may not be the bulb. The tail light boards developed weak spots over time that cause one or two tail/brake lights to flicker.

6) The angle drive is a failure prone system and a few of us have bypassed it completely with a modern system

13) The door lock control module is a notorious battery drainer.

Stay positive. Old cars need time and patience to correct previous owner mistakes and wear and tear from old age.

Re: bulbs - PO replaced rear boards and installed LEDs. They're only about a year old.

Re: door lock - the updated electronic solenoids should have resolved that problem, no?

[Jonathan]

Regarding the Wings A Loft door locks module, do you have any of the documentation that might have come with that kit?

The reason I ask is that it looks like there may be a termination on that circuit breaker that's not there. I have a slightly different version of the Northwest door locks kit (actuators kit that replaces heavy original solenoids) and mine has a thin gauged wire terminating on the one side of that circuit breaker but it also has the original, thicker red wire on it too. Perhaps if someone else on the forum knows better how that kit is to be wired, they could confirm?

Here's a pic. The smaller wire in my case is bright yellow. You can see the brown power wire on the one side of the circuit breaker and the other red heavy wire on the same side of the circuit breaker as the yellow one.

59463

Your otterstat looks quite nice, really. In good shape anyway. To do a simple test of whether that otterstat wiring will turn the fans on, you can jumper it right at those two connections. What you do is disconnect both of those wires right at the otterstat (those black female plastic connectors should just unclip from the otterstat) and then using a short length of wire with male spade connectors on both ends, plug that jumper wire into the two black, plastic connectors.

This is telling the car that the otterstat wants the fans to turn on. You don't need to turn the engine on, but with the ignition key turned to accessories and that jumper wire in place, you should have both cooling fans come on up front. You can visually check them (as well as hear them or feel the air blowing). If that works, then we go to the next step to having them work as intended.

[Boxbot]

Regarding the Wings A Loft door locks module, do you have any of the documentation that might have come with that kit?

The reason I ask is that it looks like there may be a termination on that circuit breaker that's not there. I have a slightly different version of the Northwest door locks kit (actuators kit that replaces heavy original solenoids) and mine has a thin gauged wire terminating on the one side of that circuit breaker but it also has the original, thicker red wire on it too. Perhaps if someone else on the forum knows better how that kit is to be wired, they could confirm?

Here's a pic. The smaller wire in my case is bright yellow. You can see the brown power wire on the one side of the circuit breaker and the other red heavy wire on the same side of the circuit breaker as the yellow one.

59463

Your otterstat looks quite nice, really. In good shape anyway. To do a simple test of whether that otterstat wiring will turn the fans on, you can jumper it right at those two connections. What you do is disconnect both of those wires right at the otterstat (those black female plastic connectors should just unclip from the otterstat) and then using a short length of wire with male spade connectors on both ends, plug that jumper wire into the two black, plastic connectors.

This is telling the car that the otterstat wants the fans to turn on. You don't need to turn the engine on, but with the ignition key turned to accessories and that jumper wire in place, you should have both cooling fans come on up front. You can visually check them (as well as hear them or feel the air blowing). If that works, then we go to the next step to having them work as intended.

I'm with you. Thanks. Will try that to diagnose tonight and let you know results. I'll see exactly what was ordered from Delorean NW re: the lock solenoids and electronic unit. The doors don't automatically open, so maybe I'm misstating the name of the product. I don't recall seeing any instructions, though.

[David T]

I agree the cooling system should be job 1. First you must get it so it doesn't leak. If you still have the original radiator or header tank, they should be replaced. Once you can get it leak-tight you get all of the air out. Next you have to figure out why the fans didn't come on. Could be the "O" switch, circuit breaker, wiring, fan fail, Bypass, etc.

If the car is not used you should use a Battery Tender to keep the battery fully charged. Once a month for a day. Test the battery and if it is bad or over 5 years old replace it.

Check the date codes on your tires. If over 7 years old replace them

Till you get the doors sorted out, disconnect the electronics so you don't get locked in or kill the battery.

Fix the speedometer. Could be something really simple and easy but you have to figure out what is wrong.

This is the order I would start, leaving the cosmetic stuff for later. All of the stuff you mention is normal and common in Deloreans not sorted out.

As for the DMA event, they do adjust torsion bars, they do NOT open the doors and do internal adjustments. Takes too much time. Be sure to get the overheat problem sorted out before driving from PA to NJ.

[dn010]

Just a few things that may help-

I think it took a week or two of sitting prior to my EFI conversion for the battery to drain completely. Now I can let it sit for a month or two before it is completely drained. Before hunting all over the place in the car, take your battery to a parts store and have it tested regardless of its age. It is not unheard of for a new battery to be bad and these days I'm happy to get three years out of a new one.

You can try to adjust for the door by removing the inner door seal, unscrewing the t-panel and raising/lowering it to where it makes things look even.

I had to tap on my one side marker for years in order for it to turn on. I cleaned up the socket and installed LEDs, got rid of some broken and corroded wiring and now the problem seems to be gone. Tail light issues could also be from those garbage bulkhead connectors, I think black is tail lights - check the condition of it.

Your washer pump is probably shot due to corrosion; water and debris like to collect in the housing around the washer bottle. Many people drill holes in it so water will drain (removed so you don't drill into the washer bottle). It is a pain to remove that housing and you'll probably be met with at least a few spinning riv-nuts. In my opinion the whole washer system is s--t. Even with a good pump my sprayer hits the top of the windshield and over the roof.

[Jonathan]

I'm with you. Thanks. Will try that to diagnose tonight and let you know results. I'll see exactly what was ordered from Delorean NW re: the lock solenoids and electronic unit. The doors don't automatically open, so maybe I'm misstating the name of the product. I don't recall seeing any instructions, though.

Will look forward to hearing how that test goes.

No worries on the terminology for the door locks unit. Sounds like it is the keyless remote one as opposed to the kit that will actually make your doors open with the fob too. The only feature I got with mine was just to replace the old, original and heavy metal solenoids with lighter, new, plastic actuators. And some of the wiring that went with that change. I suspect some of the battery drain if due to the door lock kit is because of it needing to stay 'on' so to speak for receiving the keyfob button press to unlock the doors.

Perhaps one more thing when you do the cooling fans test tonight... when you turn the ignition key to accessories, please make note of any and all of the instrument cluster lights that come on. And those that don't. On the right side, you should see the oil warning light come on showing low oil pressure (simply because the engine isn't running) and you should also see the battery warning light come on. The battery warning light coming on, at least initially, will tell us if the charging system is ok or whether there is a problem with it. That battery warning light bulb is the one in the cluster you should NOT change to an LED. Just want to rule that out for you is all.

Although there could be other wiring issues under there as you mentioned the door buzzers and door ajar lights aren't working correctly. That could be something like the two main connectors are just plugged into each other instead of the board the relay and buzzer is mounted on. That's this board shown here: http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?10336-Assorted-Helpful-Technical-Photos&p=152175&viewfull=1#post152175

It might be hanging down in the driver's footwell if not clipped back up into place. Might explain wiper problems, although with the delay rather than the fluid pump. That connection for the pump is hanging up under the front left corner by the reservoir. Could just be a bad connector or dirty or unplugged. The common ground wire connection for a few things up front is located at the base of the lefthand side radiator bracket. It might be worth checking on too and confirming it's clean and tight.

[Jonathan]

Did you get a chance to do anything more with your car? Some of the troubleshooting stuff that was mentioned here?

[Boxbot]

Your otterstat looks quite nice, really. In good shape anyway. To do a simple test of whether that otterstat wiring will turn the fans on, you can jumper it right at those two connections. What you do is disconnect both of those wires right at the otterstat (those black female plastic connectors should just unclip from the otterstat) and then using a short length of wire with male spade connectors on both ends, plug that jumper wire into the two black, plastic connectors.

This is telling the car that the otterstat wants the fans to turn on. You don't need to turn the engine on, but with the ignition key turned to accessories and that jumper wire in place, you should have both cooling fans come on up front. You can visually check them (as well as hear them or feel the air blowing). If that works, then we go to the next step to having them work as intended.

Sorry. Life got in the way of my car - I've been dealing with a sick relative.

Anyway, back to business. I connected a jumper to the otterstat wiring. Both fans kicked right on and stayed on several seconds after being disconnected.

I jumped the battery (completely dead, generic, and kind of under-sized at 525 cold cranking amps). The car took a while to warm up under idle. The fans kicked on several times once the needle got close to the middle of the temp gauge, but the needle continued to climb into the red even with the fans on. After it continued to climb past the first red mark, I turned the engine off, then left the car in "on" position with the heater on. I noticed that the "cooling fan fail" light was flashing three times. It did this at least four times that I noticed. As the temp came back down below the red line, it stopped flashing.

[Boxbot]

Will look forward to hearing how that test goes.

No worries on the terminology for the door locks unit. Sounds like it is the keyless remote one as opposed to the kit that will actually make your doors open with the fob too. The only feature I got with mine was just to replace the old, original and heavy metal solenoids with lighter, new, plastic actuators. And some of the wiring that went with that change. I suspect some of the battery drain if due to the door lock kit is because of it needing to stay 'on' so to speak for receiving the keyfob button press to unlock the doors.

Perhaps one more thing when you do the cooling fans test tonight... when you turn the ignition key to accessories, please make note of any and all of the instrument cluster lights that come on. And those that don't. On the right side, you should see the oil warning light come on showing low oil pressure (simply because the engine isn't running) and you should also see the battery warning light come on. The battery warning light coming on, at least initially, will tell us if the charging system is ok or whether there is a problem with it. That battery warning light bulb is the one in the cluster you should NOT change to an LED. Just want to rule that out for you is all.

Although there could be other wiring issues under there as you mentioned the door buzzers and door ajar lights aren't working correctly. That could be something like the two main connectors are just plugged into each other instead of the board the relay and buzzer is mounted on. That's this board shown here: http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?10336-Assorted-Helpful-Technical-Photos&p=152175&viewfull=1#post152175

It might be hanging down in the driver's footwell if not clipped back up into place. Might explain wiper problems, although with the delay rather than the fluid pump. That connection for the pump is hanging up under the front left corner by the reservoir. Could just be a bad connector or dirty or unplugged. The common ground wire connection for a few things up front is located at the base of the lefthand side radiator bracket. It might be worth checking on too and confirming it's clean and tight.


Re: dashboard - all lights replaced as LED except brake light and trip odometer. I will take some photos of the various unconnected wires I see. Off to buy a new battery now.

[Boxbot]

Sit rep:

Battery situation: Purchased AC Delco size 78 battery (800 CA and 110 RA) to replace undersized and 4 year old size 70 battery (525 CA and 70 RA). Car turns over much more quickly now. I will order a battery cutoff as several people have recommended.

Cooling situation: As mentioned above, when let idle, car eventually got into the red and I got the flashing cooling fan fail light. I took it out for what ended up being an hour long drive in mixed conditions. On the highway, it is as happy as a clam. The temp gauge holds steady below the first quarter mark on the gauge. In stop and go traffic, it will creep up at stop lights, but never went above the mid-point line. When I came home, I let idle for a good 10 minutes. The fans kicked on and stayed on. The gauge went to the first red line and settled in just below it for about 5 minutes. So now I don't know what to think.

Window and lock situation: I still have my passenger door torn apart and can not repair either the window or the lock issue.

[Jonathan]

Life can and will get in the way. Ain't that the truth. No worries. One thing at a time.

You said you replaced the instrument cluster light bulbs with LEDs. The battery warning light CANNOT be an LED. It MUST be a normal incandescent bulb. The charging system will NOT work with an LED in that location. Yes, it is kinda dumb for that to be the case, but that's how it is. I believe it is to force a driver to know when the alternator belt is gone. This is actually more important for engine cooling because if that belt goes, your water pump stops and no coolant is flowing and you'll overheat and damage the engine. So that bulb must work for the charging system to work and it cannot be an LED. If it is an LED, you need to change it back to a standard bulb.

You mentioned your cooling fans stayed on even after you turned the car off. I would suggest inspecting the fuse and relay area behind the passenger seat and specifically the spot in the lower left hand corner that is for that fan fail. Cooling fans staying on like that might be a few different things, but one of them might be some melting going on in that relay receptacle. Check it out and report back. Take a photo or two of that area as well if you can.

Hard to say what effect your cooling fans are having on the engine temp with what you've experienced. The car will do a good job in keeping itself cool just from the wind blowing by at highway speeds. And more so on cooler days, not the hot days of July or August. Maybe those fans aren't working as well as you think or it could be a blockage in the coolant lines or it could just be a gauge issue and nothing more. I would start with inspecting the relay area first. And that LED bulb has to go.

EDIT: sorry, forgot you added photos earlier in this thread. Still inspect them as Dave mentioned earlier. You should be able to wiggle that blue cube out as well as the two individual fuses in it. What can happen is the wires connecting underneath those relays (or this blue cube thingy) can push out and then they aren't connected to anything. They're just hanging there out of sight. Make sure that hasn't happened. You need to be a bit of a contortionist to get a good look or feel in that spot, but it's necessary.

[Bitsyncmaster]

You have my solid state fan relay and fan fail unit. My fan relay is why your fans will stay running an additional 20 seconds if you shut the engine off when fans are running. If your seeing the fan fail light flashing a sequence of three flashes then the fan fail unit is overheating.

For the fan fail to overheat you must have OEM fans that draw to much current. Keep your fuse box cover off and see if that keeps the fan fail unit cooler until you can replace your high current fans.

[Boxbot]

Life can and will get in the way. Ain't that the truth. No worries. One thing at a time.

You said you replaced the instrument cluster light bulbs with LEDs. The battery warning light CANNOT be an LED. It MUST be a normal incandescent bulb. The charging system will NOT work with an LED in that location. Yes, it is kinda dumb for that to be the case, but that's how it is. I believe it is to force a driver to know when the alternator belt is gone. This is actually more important for engine cooling because if that belt goes, your water pump stops and no coolant is flowing and you'll overheat and damage the engine. So that bulb must work for the charging system to work and it cannot be an LED. If it is an LED, you need to change it back to a standard bulb.

You mentioned your cooling fans stayed on even after you turned the car off. I would suggest inspecting the fuse and relay area behind the passenger seat and specifically the spot in the lower left hand corner that is for that fan fail. Cooling fans staying on like that might be a few different things, but one of them might be some melting going on in that relay receptacle. Check it out and report back. Take a photo or two of that area as well if you can.

Hard to say what effect your cooling fans are having on the engine temp with what you've experienced. The car will do a good job in keeping itself cool just from the wind blowing by at highway speeds. And more so on cooler days, not the hot days of July or August. Maybe those fans aren't working as well as you think or it could be a blockage in the coolant lines or it could just be a gauge issue and nothing more. I would start with inspecting the relay area first. And that LED bulb has to go.

EDIT: sorry, forgot you added photos earlier in this thread. Still inspect them as Dave mentioned earlier. You should be able to wiggle that blue cube out as well as the two individual fuses in it. What can happen is the wires connecting underneath those relays (or this blue cube thingy) can push out and then they aren't connected to anything. They're just hanging there out of sight. Make sure that hasn't happened. You need to be a bit of a contortionist to get a good look or feel in that spot, but it's necessary.

Sorry, I misspoke. Battery light is def. still incandescent (not the brake light). Cooling system still has leaks and prob. air in it at this point. That could lead to idle overheating problems, right? Fans are black in color, but I don't have any paperwork showing they or the rad have been replaced. Car has about 8,000 miles on it. No signs of rad leaking - but I suppose it could have some crud in it. Coolant is a nice color. Am I foolish for not replacing radiator when I put in all new hoses, thermostat, otterstat, etc.? Also, I don't think it's a gauge issue as I had steam coming out of the reservoir cap when the gauge pegged previously at idle.

Photos attached. No sign of melting as far as I see. I run with the plastic fuse box top off per PO's instruction. Blue relay wiggles and appears to be connected, but I couldn't quite remove it and didn't want to force it. Yellow fuses on top are intact and come out.

59647

59648

59649

[Boxbot]

You have my solid state fan relay and fan fail unit. My fan relay is why your fans will stay running an additional 20 seconds if you shut the engine off when fans are running. If your seeing the fan fail light flashing a sequence of three flashes then the fan fail unit is overheating.

For the fan fail to overheat you must have OEM fans that draw to much current. Keep your fuse box cover off and see if that keeps the fan fail unit cooler until you can replace your high current fans.

You mean run with the entire wood panel off for now? How can I tell if my fans/rad have been replaced? Fans themselves are black in color.

[Bitsyncmaster]

You mean run with the entire wood panel off for now? How can I tell if my fans/rad have been replaced? Fans themselves are black in color.

Yes, leave the wood panel off until you get new fans. My fan fail unit does not measure coolant temps so it seems funny you have only seen the flashing when your running hot. Maybe your otterstat is turning on to high.

[Jonathan]

Do your brake lights work ok? Not the warning light in the instrument cluster, but the actual brake lights in the rear? Reason I ask is normally you would see a fuse in that #18 spot in the lower right hand corner of the fuse box. That's the "stop lights" fuse. Did that get relocated somewhere?

[David T]

If the temp gauge keeps going up and the fans are running, make sure both fans are running, make sure the fans are both firmly attached to the motor shafts, and make sure the system is bled of all air. The temp gauge should not continue to move higher once the fans start and should, after a couple of minutes, start moving down.

[iflights]

Do your brake lights work ok? Not the warning light in the instrument cluster, but the actual brake lights in the rear? Reason I ask is normally you would see a fuse in that #18 spot in the lower right hand corner of the fuse box. That's the "stop lights" fuse. Did that get relocated somewhere?

In early cars there is no #18 fuse in that position. There is an inline fuse under the dash for brake lights.

[Jonathan]

In early cars there is no #18 fuse in that position. There is an inline fuse under the dash for brake lights.

Beauty. Thanks for clarifying.

[Boxbot]

Yes, leave the wood panel off until you get new fans. My fan fail unit does not measure coolant temps so it seems funny you have only seen the flashing when your running hot. Maybe your otterstat is turning on to high.

How can I tell if my fan/shroud has been replaced/upgraded?

[Bitsyncmaster]

How can I tell if my fan/shroud has been replaced/upgraded?

Post a photo of the fan motor. Try also to show the blade shape.

[Boxbot]

Post a photo of the fan motor. Try also to show the blade shape.

I had front wheel off tonight. Photo attached of fans. Also, after test drive of about 20 miles and getting the car up to operating temperature, the blue relay was not warm.

Second, I noticed in the dusk that the LED lights in the door remained on - very dim but on - even when the wire to the door switch was disconnected. I pulled the courtesy light fuse and that shut them off completely. I'm certain that was at least part of my battery drain.

In a related matter, I FIXED THE SPEEDO! The cable coming out of the lambda counter wasn't turning. I bypassed the counter with a one piece cable from DeloreanGo. Got onto the highway and it seems pretty accurate and steady. Is there anything else I need to do now that I'm bypassing the lambda counter? I know this is a routine job for most on here, but I'm proud of myself for my first successful project - even if my back was wrenched getting under the steering column.

Custom plate came in as well. The state limited me to four characters on the antique plate, but now I won't have to get an annual inspection or emissions test.

5967359674

[David T]

Those are not the OEM motors or fans. The only purpose of the Lambda counter was to remind you of a service due. It lights a light in the binnacle every 30,000 miles. At that time you are supposed to do a tune-up replacing the spark plugs, air filter, and checking and adjusting the valves, timing, and A/F mixture. Under normal use that would translate into 10,000 miles a year to a service every 5 years. Service on most Deloreans is no longer timed to mileage, rather to time or as-needed.

[Boxbot]

Those are not the OEM motors or fans. The only purpose of the Lambda counter was to remind you of a service due. It lights a light in the binnacle every 30,000 miles. At that time you are supposed to do a tune-up replacing the spark plugs, air filter, and checking and adjusting the valves, timing, and A/F mixture. Under normal use that would translate into 10,000 miles a year to a service every 5 years. Service on most Deloreans is no longer timed to mileage, rather to time or as-needed.

Understood. I was just wondering if I need to disconnect the wires running to it or any fuse or relay.

[Bitsyncmaster]

I think you have Toby's fans since that looks like the OEM fan shroud. Verify both fans blow air out the back (turning correct way). If your fan fail light still comes on you may have my first fan fail unit which tests the fans current. You can pull the fan fail unit and read the revision number printed on the bottom.

[Boxbot]

Fan fail unit is kind of wedged in the corner. Didn't want to force it out. Fans functional and blow towards the rear of car. I'm going to guess at this point that I have air in my system due to the several coolant leaks that I have on the list to repair and hope that takes care of things.

I replaced my stovepipe today. While I had everything apart, I noticed there was a big hole in the intake hose, so I was sucking in air right next to the engine block, and the air filter assembly wasn't clamped together properly, so there was an additional gap sucking in hot air past the filter. Also one of the mounts for the coolant pipe was dislodged, but luckily the bottom part of the bracket was sitting on the tub below, so I repaired that as well.

Before:
596815968259683

After:
59684

[Boxbot]

Maybe it's psychosomatic, but the car seems to be more responsive now to throttle from a dead stop. Also, the engine bay looks a whole lot better without that rusty metal and paper Rube Goldberg device!

[David T]

If you have several coolant leaks, the best plan of attack is to just replace all of the hoses. if you try to do them one-by-one you wind up dumping and filling the system and bleeding it many times.

[Boxbot]

If you have several coolant leaks, the best plan of attack is to just replace all of the hoses. if you try to do them one-by-one you wind up dumping and filling the system and bleeding it many times.

Yup. Have the full kit of 26 hoses and clamps ready to go along with thermostat and new water pump w/gaskets. Just need my mechanic friend to find time to help me out.

[Jonathan]

Window and lock situation: I still have my passenger door torn apart and can not repair either the window or the lock issue.


Second, I noticed in the dusk that the LED lights in the door remained on - very dim but on - even when the wire to the door switch was disconnected. I pulled the courtesy light fuse and that shut them off completely. I'm certain that was at least part of my battery drain.

I noticed something happening on my own car that made me think it might be part of your problems too.

I had my doors apart working on window motors and realized the door lights were staying on. This is because the door light plungers get pushed in to shut the lights off by coming into contact with a piece of that lower door trim panel. When the panel is off the door, the gap is too far and the plunger doesn't engage. So the lights stay on even with the door closed and they are very hard to notice because the light gets trapped and doesn't shine out other than through that small seam left from where the door panel isn't.

Like you said, the door lights may have been a big contributor to the battery drain issue. This might be why your door lights were staying on. Once you start to get things back together, and plug those door plunger switches back in, you might find out they work ok afterall. Assuming there isn't some other wiring mistake hiding in there too.

[David T]

The plunger also has (or is supposed to have)a small rubber tip. If it is missing that is enough to keep the lights on. You can stick a short piece of vacuum hose on the plunger to get the lights off.

[Boxbot]

I think you have Toby's fans since that looks like the OEM fan shroud. Verify both fans blow air out the back (turning correct way). If your fan fail light still comes on you may have my first fan fail unit which tests the fans current. You can pull the fan fail unit and read the revision number printed on the bottom.

I declined to pull the relay, but found instructions in my file that say it is "Rev K."

[Boxbot]

I noticed something happening on my own car that made me think it might be part of your problems too.

I had my doors apart working on window motors and realized the door lights were staying on. This is because the door light plungers get pushed in to shut the lights off by coming into contact with a piece of that lower door trim panel. When the panel is off the door, the gap is too far and the plunger doesn't engage. So the lights stay on even with the door closed and they are very hard to notice because the light gets trapped and doesn't shine out other than through that small seam left from where the door panel isn't.

Like you said, the door lights may have been a big contributor to the battery drain issue. This might be why your door lights were staying on. Once you start to get things back together, and plug those door plunger switches back in, you might find out they work ok afterall. Assuming there isn't some other wiring mistake hiding in there too.

Agreed, and I seem to have lost the rubber bit for the passenger side switch (Do you know a part number?) but this is happening even with both door lights unplugged so I have no idea what could be partially completing the circuit.

[Jonathan]

Agreed, and I seem to have lost the rubber bit for the passenger side switch (Do you know a part number?) but this is happening even with both door lights unplugged so I have no idea what could be partially completing the circuit.

The 'official' part is here: https://store.delorean.com/p-7014-tip-courtesy-light.aspx

Although, you can buy an assortment pack of 'vacuum caps' at any auto parts store and just use one that is the size you need. You could stick a wad of tape on the end of it if you really felt like it. I know that'd be Red Green approved anyway.

Might be a good idea to have a long look at the interior lighting wiring diagram and see what isn't right on your car. The wires underneath the dash going to the door light plungers can get mixed around. The driver's side ones can get mixed up with the door ajar buzzer ones and the wires on the passenger side can get mixed around with the ones meant for the glovebox light. It's confusing in that they are all very similar colours and a pain in the butt to get your head up under there to see what is going on.

Interior lights also tie into the two dome lights, which have an always on position, an off position and a position where they are supposed to come on with the door lights. The door lights are also supposed to come on only when that particular door is opened. Passenger door opens, passenger door lights come on. Similar for the driver's side. Either door open turns on the dome lights though. And there are a set of three diodes under the driver's footwell to accomplish this. I suspect something in all of that is crossed up somehow and you get to have some fun figuring it out :) It's the sort of thing that's a rite of passage for D ownership. Hours of frustration trying to make one silly little light come on.

[Boxbot]

The 'official' part is here: https://store.delorean.com/p-7014-tip-courtesy-light.aspx

Although, you can buy an assortment pack of 'vacuum caps' at any auto parts store and just use one that is the size you need. You could stick a wad of tape on the end of it if you really felt like it. I know that'd be Red Green approved anyway.

Might be a good idea to have a long look at the interior lighting wiring diagram and see what isn't right on your car. The wires underneath the dash going to the door light plungers can get mixed around. The driver's side ones can get mixed up with the door ajar buzzer ones and the wires on the passenger side can get mixed around with the ones meant for the glovebox light. It's confusing in that they are all very similar colours and a pain in the butt to get your head up under there to see what is going on.

Interior lights also tie into the two dome lights, which have an always on position, an off position and a position where they are supposed to come on with the door lights. The door lights are also supposed to come on only when that particular door is opened. Passenger door opens, passenger door lights come on. Similar for the driver's side. Either door open turns on the dome lights though. And there are a set of three diodes under the driver's footwell to accomplish this. I suspect something in all of that is crossed up somehow and you get to have some fun figuring it out :) It's the sort of thing that's a rite of passage for D ownership. Hours of frustration trying to make one silly little light come on.

Yes, my car came with the poster sized wiring diagram from DMCH, so that will be helpful - but it's going to be a lot of diagnosis. Lights all upgraded to LED, but:
1) seat belt light doesn't work
2) buzzer disconnected because it doesn't shut off
3) door lights don't turn off
4) courtesy lights not connected to driver's door
5) rear courtesy light doesn't shut off after door closes when flipped that way
5) door ajar light not connected to driver's door
6) windshield washer doesn't work (could be electrical or mechanical)
7) glove box light doesn't work

[Jonathan]

Yes, my car came with the poster sized wiring diagram from DMCH, so that will be helpful - but it's going to be a lot of diagnosis. Lights all upgraded to LED, but:
1) seat belt light doesn't work
2) buzzer disconnected because it doesn't shut off
3) door lights don't turn off
4) courtesy lights not connected to driver's door
5) rear courtesy light doesn't shut off after door closes when flipped that way
5) door ajar light not connected to driver's door
6) windshield washer doesn't work (could be electrical or mechanical)
7) glove box light doesn't work

The good news is, many of those things will likely turn out to be related. So once you fix a couple of them, the rest will follow suit.

Since that's just about the entire interior lighting system mentioned, you could probably be okay with just unplugging everything and starting from scratch. Identify what wire is supposed to go where, plug it in, and move on to the next, until you're finished. And keep in mind that those LEDs have a polarity to them, so not seeing them working might just mean they are plugged in 180 degrees off. Not all of them are reversible that way, but many are. And the way those dome lights get wired up is anything but obvious or straightforward, so that could be something unique to just how they are connected inside the housing.

[CFI]

Personally, I don’t like any of the interior lights. I feel they are all just a battery drain waiting to happen, leaving me stranded on date night with my wife....who isn’t a huge fan of the car to begin with. I’ve disconnected the interior dome lights, glove box, trunk, and engine lights. Most of those are of dubious usefulness anyway (I’m looking at you, engine light). I like the door marker lights, so I’ve kept those connected. They are LED though and confirmed to not have any affect on battery life even when left on for many hours at car shows.

[Boxbot]

I fixed the passenger side window and reassembled the passenger side door. I had to ply the top of the tube open slightly wider as the gear was getting hung up. It's not as refined as the driver's door operation, but it doesn't get jammed in the up position any longer, so a win.


And now two new issues!

The car has developed a high pitched rotational squeak/squeal at low speed when turning left. CV boot or wheel bearing maybe?

There is also a seriously irritating chirping sound that sounds like it's coming from the rear deck behind the seats. Seems to be present even if I have fusebox lid off. Any known common causes?

[dn010]

Wheel bearing would be my bet if it’s noisy while turning. You’ll have to figure out if front or rear. Replace them in pairs.

[AugustneverEnds]

There is also a seriously irritating chirping sound that sounds like it's coming from the rear deck behind the seats. Seems to be present even if I have fusebox lid off. Any known common causes?

When you say fusebox lid do you mean the wooden cover for the entire relay compartment or the plastic one just for the fuse block? If you mean the latter don't bother putting it on, it only traps the heat and helps melt the fuse block

The chirping might be a relay clicking on and off. When you notice it does anything turn on like the cooling fans or the blower motor specifically speeds 3 or 4?

Your squeal suggests a wheel bearing but might be something rubbing. Do you feel anything in the steering when it squeals?

[Boxbot]

When you say fusebox lid do you mean the wooden cover for the entire relay compartment or the plastic one just for the fuse block? If you mean the latter don't bother putting it on, it only traps the heat and helps melt the fuse block

The chirping might be a relay clicking on and off. When you notice it does anything turn on like the cooling fans or the blower motor specifically speeds 3 or 4?

Your squeal suggests a wheel bearing but might be something rubbing. Do you feel anything in the steering when it squeals?

I was saying it's present even if I have the wooden cover off. Chirping sound is not mechanical. It sounds like two parts on the rear shelf rubbing together and causing a chirp sound when driving. It's possible it's from the engine compartment, but sounds like it's in the passenger compartment with me.

[Boxbot]

Started headliners tonight. Didn't get to finish up. I am replacing with a fiberglass set from DMCH. The 40 year old duct tape had separated from the roof entirely and was a gummy mess. Cave drawings were minimal.

My original cardboard units are in really nice condition and came off without bending or tearing. i could have (and should have) had them recovered. I'll be listing the originals for sale in the near future.


597295973059731

[steve]

I was saying it's present even if I have the wooden cover off. Chirping sound is not mechanical. It sounds like two parts on the rear shelf rubbing together and causing a chirp sound when driving. It's possible it's from the engine compartment, but sounds like it's in the passenger compartment with me.

If manual trans. could it be the throwout bearing. Does it disappear when pressing the clutch in?

[Boxbot]

If manual trans. could it be the throwout bearing. Does it disappear when pressing the clutch in?

Not sure. I will check. I certainly hope not. Clutch and TOB were replaced by PO and only have a few hundred miles on them.

[Boxbot]

Updates:

Took car on first real trip this weekend to DMA event and met a lot of great people. Probably about 400 miles round trip. I Averaged 27 MPG or so and it appears I have a functional car!

Coolant
Took car in to shop to have new coolant hoses, thermostat, water pump and bled system. During trip, engine temp was steady on 1/4 mark. After coming home, I let it run for a while at idle. Between 1/4 and 1/2 mark, fans kicked on and temp came back down towards 1/4 mark. Seems to work 100%. No more coolant leaks. Shop found significant amount of coolant in the VOD.

A/C
(Hopefully) I dodged a bullet here. They found a corroded and leaking low side R134a conversion valve. After cleaning it up, it appears to hold pressure and they didn't notice any other leaks. A/C appeared to work fine on trip, but it was pretty balmy.

Exhaust
Mechanic installed second hand Stage 1 exhaust with new rubber mounts and new gaskets. It's ... um ... very loud. Only one of the cats is functional. The other is caved out. There's a lot of burbling at any RPM whenever I'm off the throttle and a lot of droning when I'm on the gas. I guess for now I'll see if I can learn to love it, but I have a feeling I'll be looking at other options down the road. I doubt this is how it sounded from the factory.

Oil
Oil change with 15W-40 Rotella and Bosch filter, and replacement of oil pressure sender light (I had replaced crush washer previously but the internals were spinning and causing an ongoing leak). No more oil leak!

Transmission
Replaced unit that was leaking in passenger compartment with new DMCH unit. Filled and bled system. I'm missing my flywheel protection shield and I have a leak at the driver's side drive shaft seal but apparently so do a lot of these.

Steering
Missing cotter pin through castle nut on driver's side. Previously, steering felt a bit floaty at highway speeds. The mechanic found the steering wheel shaft was loose and tightened it. I now feel like the steering is notchy or sticky at highway speeds - but subsequent inspection that the DMA event found I need a new tie rod end, and when I returned home I discovered I was running about 28 PSI in the front, 32 in the rear. Haven't been back out since changing to 23 PSI front/30 rear but maybe that will help. Rotational squealing when low speed turning left and rubbing sound when low speed turning right are diagnosed for now.

Trailing arm covers
I reattached them even though they only serve a dubious purpose. I didn't notice any additional noise or benefit but at least they're not taking up space in my garage.

Fuel
Hoses by fuel accumulator had no rubber left on them. I have a new set ordered. My fuel filter is not mounted to the frame. It's just hanging there. This is really bad because if the metal hose breaks, I'm removing the frame to fit a new one. The fuel tank plate is being held on by 6 bolts instead of 20. Does anyone know the correct size bolts needed to mount the filter bracket to the frame and the ones needed for the tank plate? (14 of one with washers and 6 of another).

Interior
New fiberglass headliner in and fixed broken glove box light.

[DMCMW Dave]

Updates:

Fuel
Hoses by fuel accumulator had no rubber left on them. I have a new set ordered. My fuel filter is not mounted to the frame. It's just hanging there. This is really bad because if the metal hose breaks, I'm removing the frame to fit a new one. The fuel tank plate is being held on by 6 bolts instead of 20. Does anyone know the correct size bolts needed to mount the filter bracket to the frame and the ones needed for the tank plate? (14 of one with washers and 6 of another).
.

Filter bracket are just common 5mm bolts and nylocks.

The tank plate bolts are not common. They are 8 mm bolts but are very short (sorry I don't recall the spec length, maybe 15 mm?). The washers used are 8mm (about 3/8") center hole fender washers but the OEM ones were very thick. You can approximate this by stacking a couple of them. If you use bolts that are too long, the too-long-ness will poke holes in your A/C hoses. So be sure you get the right onse. You won't find these at the hardware store. The small ones across the front are not as critical but are 6 mm bolts. These all might be worth ordering from a DMC Vendor but the large washers don't show up on the parts page so you may end up having to find them at the hardware store.

[Boxbot]

Filter bracket are just common 5mm bolts and nylocks.

The tank plate bolts are not common. They are 8 mm bolts but are very short (sorry I don't recall the spec length, maybe 15 mm?). The washers used are 8mm (about 3/8") center hole fender washers but the OEM ones were very thick. You can approximate this by stacking a couple of them. If you use bolts that are too long, the too-long-ness will poke holes in your A/C hoses. So be sure you get the right onse. You won't find these at the hardware store. The small ones across the front are not as critical but are 6 mm bolts. These all might be worth ordering from a DMC Vendor but the large washers don't show up on the parts page so you may end up having to find them at the hardware store.

Yikes. Got it. Thanks for the heads up.

[dn010]

I opted to use stainless bolts and washers there- an air cut off tool and a vice makes it fast to get them to the proper size. Not sure it's worth it for 14 $0.27 bolts though.

[Boxbot]

This car continues to try my patience. Fuel tank cover bolted up with proper hardware, fuel filter reattached to frame, new front pass tie rod end, new rear pass wheel bearing, new brake lines, new fuel lines near accumulator and speedo cable bracket installed. My driver's side recall castle nut unit didn't have a hole for a cotter pin, so they had to drill one.

I had my shop try to diagnose some ongoing issues, all of which are still happening or have gotten worse:

1) Since used Stage 1 exhaust was put on, car was tuned but now hunts on idle between 600 and 900 RPM both hot and cold, with or without A/C and lights on. I don't even know where to start diagnosing that. When it dips down oil pressure light will flicker on.

2) rear rotational squeal on low speed left turns

3) steering tighter and no longer vague, but still notchy steering at highway speeds

4) transmission/shaft was damp. I purchased a new seal kit and o rings since. They installed but now it leaks much worse. Shop says it's a bad seal. Vendor says they probably installed wrong. Shop tried a new seal from a Lotus they had on hand, but still leaking like crazy. I should have left well enough alone.

5) doors don't latch/close cleanly and will sometimes not unlock

6) some sort of new "tuck tuck tuck " sound from behind me when car is in motion.

[David T]

Fixing up an old car can try your patience and your wallet. It seems when you cross one thing of your list 2 more things appear. It can take a while to start getting ahead.

1) If you have the Stage II cams, it will hunt more than a stock PRV. If you have the stock cams and it is hunting recheck the idle motor system.
2) Make sure you have the correct air pressures in the tires. If they are over 7 years old replace them. Maybe the speedometer cable is touching something. Is the bracket installed correctly? Is the cable too long?
3) Tire pressures, old tires, or the rack needs to be rebuilt or the steering shaft is worn out (the u-joints).
4) Someone may have touched the carrier bearing adjustment. If the diff is loose you will have to take the transaxle out and readjust the bearings. See how much play (up and down) there is. If it is noticeable the bearings need adjustment.
5) Probably have a burnt solenoid, damaged lock module and/or interior adjustments in the doors.
6) Hardware kit on the rear calipers so the pads don't make noise.

[Boxbot]

Responses transposed below:

1) If you have the Stage II cams, it will hunt more than a stock PRV. If you have the stock cams and it is hunting recheck the idle motor system.
Stock cams. Will check idle motor - but seems like it could be any number of things, right?

2) Make sure you have the correct air pressures in the tires. If they are over 7 years old replace them. Maybe the speedometer cable is touching something. Is the bracket installed correctly? Is the cable too long?
New tires. 23 front. 30 rear.

3) Tire pressures, old tires, or the rack needs to be rebuilt or the steering shaft is worn out (the u-joints).
Pressures and tires good. Hoping rack doesn't need rebuild but maybe that's it. Everything else seems nice and tight. New wheel balance and alignment done.

4) Someone may have touched the carrier bearing adjustment. If the diff is loose you will have to take the transaxle out and readjust the bearings. See how much play (up and down) there is. If it is noticeable the bearings need adjustment.
Not sure about this. Will be taking back to shop on Monday.

5) Probably have a burnt solenoid, damaged lock module and/or interior adjustments in the doors.
New uprated solenoids. Locks lock and make good sound, but sometimes the physical lock doesn't release. I believe the rods need to be re-adjusted.

6) Hardware kit on the rear calipers so the pads don't make noise.
What kit is that?

[David T]

1) Likely suspects, idle motor system, vacuum leaks. Leaks reduce the effect of the idle motor system.
6) Springs included in some of the vendor brake kits can reduce the clunk. One possible source of the clunking noise is if the rotor is cut and not scuffed. It causes "threading" where the pads rise up and fall down like a needle in a record. The faces of the rotor get scuffed up to remove any pattern. When the pads fall down they clunk or tick. Springs can also help with that and squeals.

[Boxbot]

So today, the car didn't want to rev when cold. If I pushed the gas pedal, the revs dropped and it threatened to stall. Stayed that way until the temp gauge moved off the bottom. Felt like the car had bananas in the tailpipe. What is causing this now?!

[David T]

I would put the fuel pressure gauge on and watch the control pressure as the car warms up. If ti is not within specs the CPR needs to be rebuilt. This is assuming the car runs OK once it warms up. The CPR acts like a choke on a carburetor. It richens the A/F mixture till the motor warms up to make the car drivable.

[Boxbot]

I would put the fuel pressure gauge on and watch the control pressure as the car warms up. If ti is not within specs the CPR needs to be rebuilt. This is assuming the car runs OK once it warms up. The CPR acts like a choke on a carburetor. It richens the A/F mixture till the motor warms up to make the car drivable.

Car does run ok as soon as it starts to warm up (when needle moves even slightly off the bottom mark) but then the lack of throttle is replaced with a noticeable idle hunt that I didn't have previously surging from 600 RPM to about 1,000 RPM, causing the oil press and battery to drop as well - whether or not the A/C is on. Related issue or 2 different issues?

[David T]

Surging (once the idle system activates and the ECU goes into "closed loop") is a sign of vacuum leaks and/or a sticky/dirty idle motor. Can also be a sign of dirty injectors and time for a tune-up. Again, if you are having issues during warm-up it is usually the CPR. From your comments it sounds like you need a tune-up and a rebuilt CPR.

[Boxbot]

Surging (once the idle system activates and the ECU goes into "closed loop") is a sign of vacuum leaks and/or a sticky/dirty idle motor. Can also be a sign of dirty injectors and time for a tune-up. Again, if you are having issues during warm-up it is usually the CPR. From your comments it sounds like you need a tune-up and a rebuilt CPR.

Shop pulled and examined the CPR and say it is in good shape. They diagnosed the fuel pressure as being too high and are trying to diagnose.

[David T]

If the Primary Pressure is too high it is either a restricted return line or the Primary Pressure Regulator needs to be adjusted. Once the shop can get that set they should recheck the Control Pressure, watching it as the motor warms up, making sure it is within spec.

[opethmike]

If the Primary Pressure is too high it is either a restricted return line or the Primary Pressure Regulator needs to be adjusted. Once the shop can get that set they should recheck the Control Pressure, watching it as the motor warms up, making sure it is within spec.


*eats Dave*

[Boxbot]

Return line is clear. Pressure is still too high. Recommended they look at primary pressure regulator per your comments. Any other known culprits?

[Bitsyncmaster]

Return line is clear. Pressure is still too high. Recommended they look at primary pressure regulator per your comments. Any other known culprits?

What pressure are they reading? I wonder if they hooked up the gauge correctly. It is pretty easy to pull the return hose from the pump and see if any fuel is returning.

[Boxbot]

450 Kpa.

[Bitsyncmaster]

450 Kpa.

65 PSI is not to high for primary pressure. It should be 75 PSI but most cars are running around 70 PSI that I've tested.

[Boxbot]

65 PSI is not to high for primary pressure. It should be 75 PSI but most cars are running around 70 PSI that I've tested.

Not to second guess Dave, but can anyone confirm?

[FABombjoy]

D:02:01 in the service manual has the specifications.
Checking value: 4.9-5.5 bar
Setting value: 5.1-5.3 bar

4.5 bar (450kPa) would be a bit low.

[Bitsyncmaster]

D:02:01 in the service manual has the specifications.
Checking value: 4.9-5.5 bar
Setting value: 5.1-5.3 bar

4.5 bar (450kPa) would be a bit low.

So you want to set 5.2 bar (75.4 PSI) if your adjusting it to design. I set mine but I did not notice any change in engine operation from where it was at 70 PSI.

[Boxbot]

From mechanic:

The control pressure out of the warm up regulator is showing that pressure, which the spec should be 49-53 PSI. We should have been seeing 345-375 kPA at the temperatures we were working at.

[Bitsyncmaster]

From mechanic:

The control pressure out of the warm up regulator is showing that pressure, which the spec should be 49-53 PSI. We should have been seeing 345-375 kPA at the temperatures we were working at.

OK. Your control pressure is to high. Most likely you need a rebuilt warm up regulator but if the filter on the WUR (inlet screen is plugged or dirty) that can cause the pressure to be to high.

[Boxbot]

OK. Your control pressure is to high. Most likely you need a rebuilt warm up regulator but if the filter on the WUR (inlet screen is plugged or dirty) that can cause the pressure to be to high.

That's where we started. I mentioned on page 7 they pulled and examined the CPR (warm up regulator) and said it looks like new. They pulled the return hose but control pressure is still too high.

I've asked them to order shims for the primary pressure regulator. Not sure what else it could be.

[Bitsyncmaster]

That's where we started. I mentioned on page 7 they pulled and examined the CPR (warm up regulator) and said it looks like new. They pulled the return hose but control pressure is still too high.

I've asked them to order shims for the primary pressure regulator. Not sure what else it could be.

It won't be corrected by adjusting the primary pressure unless that is to high.

[Boxbot]

If it's not the CPR or the return hose, what else could it be? Could CPR need to be rebuilt even if not clogged?

[David T]

The CPR can lose calibration, the screen can get plugged up and the wiring for the internal heater burns up. To understand the CPR better read D:01:11, :12. To test it get the fuel pressure gauge on the system and refer to the chart and specs on D:02:01. Before testing the CPR verify the vacuum hoses are hooked up correctly and not leaking.

[Ron]

If it's not the CPR or the return hose, what else could it be? Could CPR need to be rebuilt even if not clogged?Which return hose?
The return hose from the CPR to the FD and the return hose from the FD to the tank must both be clear. These two hoses share a chamber in the FD, which also has to be clear (check for broke o-ring/trash in PPR chamber/ports/passages/etc). Otherwise, your your Control Pressure will approach/match the Primary Pressure.

Your Primary Pressure is a bit low but ~OK, so it has to be the CPR is not trying to bleed off pressure or the path it uses to bleed pressure back to the tank with is restricted.
PUMP 90psi+ >>> FD-PPR 75psi > CPR INPUT HOSE > CPR > CPR RETURN HOSE > FD > SHARED CHAMBER > FD RETURN HOSE > TANK

Similar problem/info here. (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?17266-Uneven-Injector-Output-***Split-from-PPR-Shim-Source-***&p=246264&viewfull=1#post246264)

[Boxbot]

Which return hose?
The return hose from the CPR to the FD and the return hose from the FD to the tank must both be clear. These two hoses share a chamber in the FD, which also has to be clear (check for broke o-ring/trash in PPR chamber/ports/passages/etc). Otherwise, your your Control Pressure will approach/match the Primary Pressure.

Your Primary Pressure is a bit low but ~OK, so it has to be the CPR is not trying to bleed off pressure or the path it uses to bleed pressure back to the tank with is restricted.
PUMP 90psi+ >>> FD-PPR 75psi > CPR INPUT HOSE > CPR > CPR RETURN HOSE > FD > SHARED CHAMBER > FD RETURN HOSE > TANK

Similar problem/info here. (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?17266-Uneven-Injector-Output-***Split-from-PPR-Shim-Source-***&p=246264&viewfull=1#post246264)

65 PSI references high control pressure NOT low primary pressure.

[Ron]

Yes 65 is a bit low for primary pressure, but probably not enough to cause major problems...

I'm not getting your point since the problem is high Control Pressure. I.E., Didn't you mean the Primary and Control Pressures were the same here (65psi)?

So you want to set 5.2 bar (75.4 PSI) if your adjusting it to design.

From mechanic:

The control pressure out of the warm up regulator is showing that pressure...

[Boxbot]

I replaced my battery (again) and took the car out twice this week. There were no issues with shifting the manual transmission at all. Today, I went to start it and the car will not go into reverse. It just grinds with the clutch pedal fully engaged. Forward gears are available, but very hard to get the stick to go into location with the engine running.

If I turn the car off, I can shift the car into reverse. In fact, if I have the car turned off, it rows through the gears fine. Clutch pedal has resistance, but I can't sense an engagement point as I can't get it into gear. I doubt I burned up the clutch as I've been driving manuals my whole life and didn't smell any smoke or anything like that. Again, everything was fine. I parked it overnight and now it won't go into gear. What fresh hell is this?

Clutch was replaced by PO before I bought it. My shop replaced the leaking clutch master cylinder last year. The clutch slave cylinder was reported to be ok, so we did not replace that. I do not see any fluid under the car.

[Ron]

The Fluid God is punishing you for leaving us hanging with the previous issue...:deviltail:

Sounds like the clutch is not disengaging fully. A burnt up clutch shouldn't cause this, but slipping problems instead.
Since only the master was replaced, I'd first suspect the slave since you have no leaks. Then:
The OEM plastic fluid line needs to be replaced.
System needs bleeding.
Trans fluid very low.

[82DMC12]

Maybe when the clutch master was replaced, and all the fluid was changed, it flushed out some junk that was keeping the slave somewhat functional. Fresh fluid / wrong fluid might be leaking internally in the clutch slave. As Ron said, I would change the slave, change to a braided line, and flush/bleed completely.

[Boxbot]

The Fluid God is punishing you for leaving us hanging with the previous issue...:deviltail:

Sounds like the clutch is not disengaging fully. A burnt up clutch shouldn't cause this, but slipping problems instead.
Since only the master was replaced, I'd first suspect the slave since you have no leaks. Then:
The OEM plastic fluid line needs to be replaced.
System needs bleeding.
Trans fluid very low.

Thanks.

Didn't follow up because the issue was never corrected. I just ended up warming the car up before attempting to go anywhere. I was hoping to get it to a specialist over the winter, but that ended up not happening.

Anyway, the clutch lines were replaced/upgraded. I think the system was bled, but will look into it. Thanks, guys.

[Boxbot]

Maybe when the clutch master was replaced, and all the fluid was changed, it flushed out some junk that was keeping the slave somewhat functional. Fresh fluid / wrong fluid might be leaking internally in the clutch slave. As Ron said, I would change the slave, change to a braided line, and flush/bleed completely.

Lines are new, but slave sounds plausible. I have one sitting in a box. It's the only part of the system that wasn't replaced.

I don't think it's trans fluid level as I don't see any leak/fluid and this all happened suddenly. Thanks.

[dn010]

What happens if you pump the pedal a bunch of times before trying to shift? Or try shifting in first and then reverse.

[Ron]

Thanks.

Didn't follow up because the issue was never corrected. I just ended up warming the car up before attempting to go anywhere. I was hoping to get it to a specialist over the winter, but that ended up not happening.

Anyway, the clutch lines were replaced/upgraded. I think the system was bled, but will look into it. Thanks, guys.
I'd almost bet that your warm up regulator is bad. And that someone here would be willing to let you try a good one off a carb or EFI conversion laying around w/o committing to purchasing??

======

I'd try bleeding the slave first, paying close attention to the color and amount of air in what first comes out.


+1 Dan!

[DMCMW Dave]

I'd try bleeding the slave first, paying close attention to the color and amount of air in what first comes out.

+1 Dan!

Agreed. I'd NEVER change only the master or slave unless I know the other one is new. I've seen just flushing an old system cause one or the other to fail within days.

Best thing is to flush the fluid every year or two, and when one fails change both.

Don't drive it like this, this is what causes transmission internal rollpin and/or sliding gear failures.

[David T]

Agreed. I'd NEVER change only the master or slave unless I know the other one is new. I've seen just flushing an old system cause one or the other to fail within days.

Best thing is to flush the fluid every year or two, and when one fails change both.

Don't drive it like this, this is what causes transmission internal rollpin and/or sliding gear failures.

X2 Almost always if the clutch fluid is bad the brake fluid is also bad and vice versa. If the fluid is thick or dark it is bad. If you can't remember when it was last changed it has been too long. Flushing old, dark fluid out of a system that has been neglected usually results in it leaking everywhere within a few days. Just as a test you should flush the clutch system to get it to work but expect to replace things when they start leaking. Look under the carpet on the driver's side for a leaky master cylinder. You can drive with the plastic hose but when you replace the cylinders you should change the hose to a S/S hose. Very bad to drive and force shifts, as Dave says you will cause internal damage to the transmission.

[Boxbot]

X2 Almost always if the clutch fluid is bad the brake fluid is also bad and vice versa. If the fluid is thick or dark it is bad. If you can't remember when it was last changed it has been too long. Flushing old, dark fluid out of a system that has been neglected usually results in it leaking everywhere within a few days. Just as a test you should flush the clutch system to get it to work but expect to replace things when they start leaking. Look under the carpet on the driver's side for a leaky master cylinder. You can drive with the plastic hose but when you replace the cylinders you should change the hose to a S/S hose. Very bad to drive and force shifts, as Dave says you will cause internal damage to the transmission.

As I mentioned, new non-leaking master cylinder installed and system flushed last year and hoses have been upgraded to stainless.

[Boxbot]

What happens if you pump the pedal a bunch of times before trying to shift? Or try shifting in first and then reverse.

Pumped it a bunch of times and now it can't find any gears while running. There's resistance in the pedal, but no clear engagement point. I guess it's the slave cylinder. Every other part in the system is new. Can someone point me towards a how to for bleeding the system and/or replacing the slave cylinder?

[dn010]

Pumped it a bunch of times and now it can't find any gears while running. There's resistance in the pedal, but no clear engagement point. I guess it's the slave cylinder. Every other part in the system is new. Can someone point me towards a how to for bleeding the system and/or replacing the slave cylinder?

At least that narrowed it down. Here is a post about replacement, it contains links to other useful posts regarding same. Before I swapped engines to go EFI, I went under the car, wrapped my hands up and around the transmission and removed the slave that way. PITA.

Post 23 gives you instructions on both cylinder removal and bleeding the system. Save your old slave cylinder, you'll probably need to send it as a core.

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?2723

[David T]

Doing it from underneath you do wrap your hands around the transmission. Two bolts. Awkward but doable. The other way is from the top but there is so much in the way and it takes small hands and you still have to go underneath to undo the hose.. Remove the slave cylinder WITH the short metal line and take it off once you get the cylinder out. Some vendors want the old one, some don't. Find out BEFORE you toss it away. Some vendors offer cylinders resleeved in brass or S/S. Nice but not necessary if you flush the system at least once every 2 years. Flushing is a WHOLE lot easier and cheaper than replacing parts.

[Boxbot]

Update: it seems the PO strikes again. One of the stainless clutch cables had come loose and I lost pressure in the system. It's as if the guy didn't own a metric socket set - so many things are unsafely hand tightened. At least it didn't leave me stranded. Anyway, tightened and flushed system and we're back to normal.