Topping up trans fluid.

[SIMid]

Hi everyone,

I've followed the instructions, warm up the engine, move the stick through the gears and then check the trans dipstick. But when i check the stick, its wet all alomg, not definition of exactly what the level is.

Any ideas? I dont want to overfill it :(

[WelmoedJ]

Wipe the stick and put it back in.
Let it in there shortly, pull and read it.

It works like checking the engine oil level, except for the warming up and the gear shifting part.

[SIMid]

So pretty much leave her cold and wip in and out with the dipstick? Maybe i was leaving it in too long possible, making the entire gauge bar all wet?

[Ron]

No, you must let it warm up first. The reason you are seeing it all along the stick is probably because you just added some...or it is already too full. If you have just put some in, it is clinging to the inside of the pipe. I have best luck waiting 15+ seconds then check, repeat until good reading, and ALWAYS test drive it and check again (this gets it all hot and lets the tube drain clean).
Putting the stick in and out quickly does help but you're prone to bend it...it's just a matter of patience ;-)

[David T]

Warm up the car, shift through the gears while standing still. Pull out the dipstick and wipe it off. Stick it all the way back in and count to 3. Pull it out and while holding it level (so it doesn't drip) check both sides looking for a line. It should be between the add and full marks. It should also be nice and red and not smell burnt. Rub some between your fingers and it should not feel gritty. Don't forget to also check the final drive. On the automatic it is a different area and you have to go under the car and remove the level plug to check.
David Teitelbaum

[Bitsyncmaster]

Your are leaving the engine running in PARK when you check the level?

[Ron]

Stick it all the way back in and count to 3.
I thought we were talking about hot transmission fluid, not STP fresh out of the freezer.

[SIMid]

Your are leaving the engine running in PARK when you check the level?

I had warmed the car and switched her off when checking the level. Should she still be running?

I didn't know there was another part to check, the final drive!! :(

[Ron]

Should she still be running?
Absolutely.
Trans fluid expands a lot and several internal parts drain when it is not running. Every auto trans I can think of requires it to be at operating temperature. Even a GrandAm that doesn't have a dipstick and you have to check though a plug in the top, located ~4 inches from the #*^%$# hot exhaust manifold.

[Good catch DM!]

[SIMid]

Thanks for that, im going to check her out running warm.
Question, where's the final drive plug, is this located on the driver's side, in front of the drive shaft? Im looking at the parts manual. Sec 4- sub-5 grp-7 part 20? If it is, does it just screw off? I read on the old forum (i think it was about the final drive) that the level should be just below the plug hole?

[SIMid]

Cool, found what i was looking for, but need a specific tool to get it off, nothing in my socket set will fit in this square hole :(

[Iznodmad]

Cool, found what i was looking for, but need a specific tool to get it off, nothing in my socket set will fit in this square hole :(

Pretty sure it is the same one that fits the original oil drain plug and the coolant drains for the engine block as well.

[David T]

As long as you are checking things, these are other things you should be checking on the automatic:
All of the exterior On-Car adjustments
Signs of external leakage
All of the wiring should be firmly attached and away from the exhaust pipes
Transmission mounts
The vacuum line to the modulator for leaks

David Teitlebaum

[TTait]

Cool, found what i was looking for, but need a specific tool to get it off, nothing in my socket set will fit in this square hole :(

I bought one off the internet from Maylaysia for a couple bucks, but it took weeks to arrive. I'm surprised that the vendors don't stock this item as it can be found cheap if you really really hunt for it.

You can go by a socket adapter, I think one that goes from 1/2" drive down to 3/8" (get one with no ball bearing in it) and then grind it down a little.

Then replace it with a standard drain plug - magnetic is a plus. (Hervey sells them, but you don't want to wait for shipping to Australia.) Get a second one for your oil drain plug if that's still oem too - I suppose its nice to use the oem ones if you are concours - but otherwise they are just a PITA.

[Alex Brooks]

They are all stock plugs Simon, I have the tool I would have sent it with the car but I have other cars that use it too. I bought from snap on

[sean]

Thread on the drain plug tool:
http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?1030-Oil-Drain-Plug&highlight=Snap

[SIMid]

Thanks everyone for the replies, I'll pop down to my local parts supply store and pick one up. :thumbup2:

[SIMid]

Hi again all,

I have tried to get this 5/16 Tool and no one has them in stock. :( Unbelievable!!

Any links to where I can grab one over the net? I've psoted on the OZdelorean forum to see where our local owners do to get this tool.

Thanks.

[Ron]

You might try a regular hardware store and ask for a "5/16 square male pipe plug socket"
Or, Google and pick one (http://www.google.com/search?um=1&hl=en&safe=active&biw=1015&bih=608&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=%225%2F16in+square+male+pipe+plug+socket%22+-spark+-+female+-hex&btnG=Search&oq=%225%2F16in+square+male+pipe+plug+socket%22+-spark+-+female+-hex&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=0l0l0l19047l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0ll0l0)

Or, trim a hard 1/2 to 3/8 drive adapter down, or a short 3/8 drive extension, .....

[David T]

The problem with filing down a socket (or adapter) is that they are case hardened. It is a thin surface that is heat treated to make it wear resistant. If you grind the part you will remove the surface treatment. A better way to go is to get some 5/16 square stock, bend it into an "L" shape and file (or grind) the short end.
David Teitelbaum

[SIMid]

The problem with filing down a socket (or adapter) is that they are case hardened. It is a thin surface that is heat treated to make it wear resistant. If you grind the part you will remove the surface treatment. A better way to go is to get some 5/16 square stock, bend it into an "L" shape and file (or grind) the short end.
David Teitelbaum

That's true David.

Snap-On in Australia do sell them for $35 + PH!!! WTF? Must be a rare tool for them to shift.

I'm better off getting one from DMC, support the company, and probably cheaper to buy it from them and mail it to me!

http://www.delorean.com/store/p-9097-drain-plug-socket.aspx

[Ron]

The problem with filing down a socket (or adapter) is that they are case hardened. It is a thin surface that is heat treated to make it wear resistant. If you grind the part you will remove the surface treatment. A better way to go is to get some 5/16 square stock, bend it into an "L" shape and file (or grind) the short end.
David Teitelbaum
FYI, usually:
"Square stock" is not case hardened. It is cold-rolled and its surface treatment is with zinc to protect it from oxidation.
Yes adapters are case hardened for wear -- And they are forged to be bend/twist resistant.

[David T]

I didn't say the square stock is case hardened, the sockets and adapters are. The square stock will not be as hard or as strong as an adapter (no forging or case hardening) but for limited use it can be used. The Snap On adapter is expensive, especially if you only use it once. Maybe you can borrow one? Or just have a shop remove the plug and replace it with a more standard type. Could be cheaper than buying the adapter. Another way is to get a square head bolt, cut the thread off it, and weld the head to a handle. None of this will ever be as strong as the proper adapter but it may be enough to get the plug out.
David Teitelbaum

[Ron]

Nobody even implied you said that part.
Let's not talk about putting people on the defensive, or why you offer all of these other suggestions here now instead of in the ~2/3 of your previous post used to knock sockets (and adaptors)...

Instead, please tell us why you say square stock is a better way to go when the square stock will not be as hard or as strong as an adapter.

[David T]

I didn't say square stock is the way to go, I only offer it as a suggestion to someone who is not able to get things as easily as we can here in the US.

Square stock" is not case hardened. It is cold-rolled and its surface treatment is with zinc to protect it from oxidation.
Yes adapters are case hardened for wear

I wasn't getting defensive and took no offense, I just wanted to make clear what I said. Since the original poster is in Australia he must find that he often must "cobble together" what he needs or wait until he can make a large purchase since shipping is such a big issue. I have seen in the past where PO's have made up "tools" out of square stock and I myself have done it when necessary but it is not a very good option, square stock is usually pretty soft so you can work it easily. And it doesn't harden very much. In rare cases the plugs are in so tight you will never get them loose with soft materiel like square stock. Sometimes I have to put a pipe on a breaker bar with my adapter, square stock will just twist and round off. But when you are desperate you start trying all sorts of things!
David Teitelbaum

[Ron]

I didn't say square stock is the way to go,
Agreed, you didn't say "the way", but no one implied that, either.


I only offer it as a suggestion to someone who is not able to get things as easily as we can here in the US.
That is not what you had offer-ED it as, when I asked. You offered it as,


.... A better way...
like what I said you did.

Since it's so hard, I'll answer for you- It's not.
Now I can find some something more productive to do like...um......kick my dog??

[Jonathan]

Question, where's the final drive plug, is this located on the driver's side, in front of the drive shaft? Im looking at the parts manual. Sec 4- sub-5 grp-7 part 20? If it is, does it just screw off? I read on the old forum (i think it was about the final drive) that the level should be just below the plug hole?

Kind of a follow-up to an older thread.

Simon mentions looking for the location and then in his next post mentions finding it. I would love a photo or something more specific than what I've come across so far if someone has one.

I have my rear end in the air, but only at home on jack stands and it's not a lot of room to work under so wanted a pretty good idea of what I was getting into before getting into it.

I think I did see where my leaks are coming from though. The gear oil one may be from the drain plug which begs the question: do the drain and fill plugs on the final drive require a copper crush/sealing washer like other spots similar (pan plugs for example)? It seems to make sense that they would but I wasn't sure.

I think I also see where at least one of the ATF leak spots is. I had this photo on my computer showing the trans cooler connections and sure enough, I can see a drip just below the hose clamp on the one side but no wet spots anywhere else. Might just be a bit loose, which would be a pretty simple fix.

This is the photo I meant:

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I would bet Dave likely put this photo with labels together for someone if I had to guess...

[DMCMW Dave]

I have my rear end in the air, but only at home on jack stands and it's not a lot of room to work under so wanted a pretty good idea of what I was getting into before getting into it.

I think I did see where my leaks are coming from though. The gear oil one may be from the drain plug which begs the question: do the drain and fill plugs on the final drive require a copper crush/sealing washer like other spots similar (pan plugs for example)? It seems to make sense that they would but I wasn't sure.

I think I also see where at least one of the ATF leak spots is. I had this photo on my computer showing the trans cooler connections and sure enough, I can see a drip just below the hose clamp on the one side but no wet spots anywhere else. Might just be a bit loose, which would be a pretty simple fix.

I would bet Dave likely put this photo with labels together for someone if I had to guess...

There are three plugs with crush washers on the automatic. - the ATF drain, the gear oil drain, and the gear oil fill.

The cooling hoses often leak, if you look at the hose end you'll see that the rubber is cracked. Often the addition of a hose clamp just behind the crimp clamp will help for a while, but ultimately you need to replace the hoses. If there are already worm-type clamps on the hose ends someone has already tried this.

Common Leak points on automatics:
ATF:
Cooler hoses
Governor Connections (O-rings)
Pan Gasket
Dipstick Tube (O-ring)
Shift Cable internal seal (replace the whole cable)
Torque converter seal (luckily pretty rare)

Gear Oil:
Differential drain plug
Axle Seals

The problem is that ATF goes everywhere. Hose leaks are pretty easy to identify, but the shift cable and dipstick tube will appear to be pan gasket leaks.

The best advice is to waste a can of brake cleaner and completely degrease everything. Then watch for leaks over the next day or so WITHOUT running the engine. If you don't see anything (not likely) then run the engine. The reason for this is that some items will leak all the time, and some only with the engine running.

If you find ATF inside the frame near the fuel accumulator, that's the shift cable as the oil will follow the cable to the open end inside the frame.

[DMCMW Dave]

To answer the original question - run the car until the trans is warm. This is a few miles of driving. Then park it with the engine running in "park" and let it sit like that for a few minutes, maybe as long as 5-10 minutes. Then check the level a couple of times on the dipstick. If you check it without the engine running it will look way over full, and if you check it too fast after you stop driving it, there will be oil in the dipstick tube and it will be hard to get a clean read on the stick. This is also the problem right after you add oil, you need to let it run down and settle a bit before checking it again as you just poured oil into the tube, it will make a false reading on the stick if it is still sticking to the sides of the tube.

[Jonathan]

There are three plugs with crush washers on the automatic. - the ATF drain, the gear oil drain, and the gear oil fill.

The cooling hoses often leak, if you look at the hose end you'll see that the rubber is cracked. Often the addition of a hose clamp just behind the crimp clamp will help for a while, but ultimately you need to replace the hoses. If there are already worm-type clamps on the hose ends someone has already tried this.

Common Leak points on automatics:
ATF:
Cooler hoses
Governor Connections (O-rings)
Pan Gasket
Dipstick Tube (O-ring)
Shift Cable internal seal (replace the whole cable)
Torque converter seal (luckily pretty rare)

Gear Oil:
Differential drain plug
Axle Seals

The problem is that ATF goes everywhere. Hose leaks are pretty easy to identify, but the shift cable and dipstick tube will appear to be pan gasket leaks.

The best advice is to waste a can of brake cleaner and completely degrease everything. Then watch for leaks over the next day or so WITHOUT running the engine. If you don't see anything (not likely) then run the engine. The reason for this is that some items will leak all the time, and some only with the engine running.

If you find ATF inside the frame near the fuel accumulator, that's the shift cable as the oil will follow the cable to the open end inside the frame.

Thanks a lot for that explanation Dave. It really helps me visualize what's going on underneath. The view from under the car is never quite so clear when you're only able to get it as high as your jack stands or ramps will allow.

You are right about the hose clamps on the cooler lines. I expect this has been tried before by someone. This is an older photo, but still pretty close to the current condition. Maybe not where the leaks or wet spots are right now, but the hoses or clamps would look the same.

29280

I also for some reason thought the final drive fill plug was on the passenger side, and was not sure why it was so hard to see. I got around to the other side and realized it is on the driver's side. Just to confirm, this is the final plug, right?

29281

Interesting you mentioned ATF following the cable into the fuel accumulator access area. I had been wondering what this small drip of oil/ATF was on the bottom of the accumulator itself as it didn't look at all like fuel. Is this about what you meant by the shift cable leaking comment?

29282

And thanks for mentioning the crush washers on the three spots on the auto trans cars. I have a half dozen extras and assume they are the same size as the auto trans pan/engine oil pan drain plug ones?

[DMCMW Dave]

I also for some reason thought the final drive fill plug was on the passenger side, and was not sure why it was so hard to see. I got around to the other side and realized it is on the driver's side. Just to confirm, this is the final plug, right?
--

Interesting you mentioned ATF following the cable into the fuel accumulator access area. I had been wondering what this small drip of oil/ATF was on the bottom of the accumulator itself as it didn't look at all like fuel. Is this about what you meant by the shift cable leaking comment?
--

And thanks for mentioning the crush washers on the three spots on the auto trans cars. I have a half dozen extras and assume they are the same size as the auto trans pan/engine oil pan drain plug ones?

Yes that is the fill plug

No, that is a very tiny fuel leak, almost a vapor leak, at the crimp in the accumulator. I've seen them do that and never get worse. If you ever see wet fuel dripping it's a problem. The AFT leak will puddle at the base of the frame, if you stick your fingers and feel the bottom of the frame, you'll the ATF.

They are (6) all the same:
--engine oil drain
--engine coolant drain x 2
--auto trans ATF drain
--auto trans differential drain
--auto trans differential fill

[Chris 16409]

Dave, do the auto cooler line fittings use an O-Ring for the seal? I thinking no, but just wanted to ask. Also the metal fittings on my friend's cooler hoses rotate. Shouldn't they be fixed in place. It doesn't seem like they should be able spin in the hose.

[DMCMW Dave]

Dave, do the auto cooler line fittings use an O-Ring for the seal? I thinking no, but just wanted to ask. Also the metal fittings on my friend's cooler hoses rotate. Shouldn't they be fixed in place. It doesn't seem like they should be able spin in the hose.

No o- rings they are compression. If the hoses turn that easy they are bad and leaking .


Sent from phone

[Ryan King]

No o- rings they are compression. If the hoses turn that easy they are bad and leaking .


Sent from phone

They are leaking badly. Pouring out fluid all over the ground. Going to have them rebuilt locally, sealed up the pan better. What should those bolts be torqued to on the pan?

[DMCMW Dave]

They are leaking badly. Pouring out fluid all over the ground. Going to have them rebuilt locally, sealed up the pan better. What should those bolts be torqued to on the pan?

Not much more than finger tight. Easy to split the gasket.

[Jonathan]

Ryan/Chris... I assume you're talking about the same car?

Another place to look for a good seal is the bottom of the dipstick tube where it enters the top of the pan.

It's not the easiest thing to see when you're under your car, but could be another potential source of the ATF leaks you're seeing. The original seal is made by an o-ring. You can put that same type o-ring back in or use two of the same ones as well. You can also try to use an otterstat seal as others have found this fits well.

There is a bolt holding the tube in place by a small bracket at the end which mates up with a threaded hole in the transmission. If that is still bolted together there, it'll need to be undone to get it out enough to replace the seal.

I found it to be a PITA myself, especially once you are trying to get things lined up or sealed and your hands and parts are covered in slippery ATF.

[Ryan King]

Ryan/Chris... I assume you're talking about the same car?
Another place to look for a good seal is the bottom of the dipstick tube where it enters the top of the pan.


Yeah, the same car. I have actually replaced the dipstick tube rubber with an outterstat seal, which worked perfectly. I havent had any leaks since!

My transmission was leaking terribly from the Transmission Cooler Lines. I had them rebuilt locally in town with better rubber tubing and stronger fittings. I have also throughly resealed the transmission pan with sealant around the pan and additional sealant on the transmission governor plugs. Which leads me to my next question..

Dave/Anyone - Do you recommend or use any Thread sealer when installing the cooler lines onto the cooler pipe? I purchased "Permatex Thread Sealant" to insure I have no leaks after installing the hoses. I am sick and tired of having transmission fluid leaking out and getting the underside of the car doused in fluid. I want to cover all my bases.

Below I will enclose photos of the new hoses & the sealant packaging.

[Ryan King]

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30034
30035

[Ryan King]

Dave -

Okay. I have replaced the Transmission Cooler Lines with new rebuilt heavy duty lines, but I still am finding puddles of fluid under the car. I would say I am easily loosing half a quart with every drive down the street and back.

I replaced the Pan Gasket a few years ago with a cork version from DMCH, but I have since ordered a new Silicon Gasket from Josh at DPI, since his doesn't require any sealant to the pan, and at 20 dollars, thats worth a shot.

But in addition to that, I think its a possibility that the transmission shifter cable could be a culprit at this point. But I don't know how to tackle sealing that. Should I remove it? What do you suggest I do?

Also, some could be coming from the Governor plugs... How do you suggest going about that as well? I figure since I am under there, I could at least check those off the list and make sure those are sealing properly. Do those just pull out, or will adding extra sealant do the trick? I dont want to damage anything at this point.

I am afraid I will burn out the transmission if I drive it anywhere, and it seems like just driving it around the block and back produces a slight burning smell. Either its the transmission, or its because I drive the car every few weeks or so and its burning off dust and spider webs O.o

[David T]

Dave -

Okay. I have replaced the Transmission Cooler Lines with new rebuilt heavy duty lines, but I still am finding puddles of fluid under the car. I would say I am easily loosing half a quart with every drive down the street and back.

I replaced the Pan Gasket a few years ago with a cork version from DMCH, but I have since ordered a new Silicon Gasket from Josh at DPI, since his doesn't require any sealant to the pan, and at 20 dollars, thats worth a shot.

But in addition to that, I think its a possibility that the transmission shifter cable could be a culprit at this point. But I don't know how to tackle sealing that. Should I remove it? What do you suggest I do?

Also, some could be coming from the Governor plugs... How do you suggest going about that as well? I figure since I am under there, I could at least check those off the list and make sure those are sealing properly. Do those just pull out, or will adding extra sealant do the trick? I dont want to damage anything at this point.

I am afraid I will burn out the transmission if I drive it anywhere, and it seems like just driving it around the block and back produces a slight burning smell. Either its the transmission, or its because I drive the car every few weeks or so and its burning off dust and spider webs O.o

Instead of shooting at every possible seal, replacing them and taking the chance of MAKING new leaks, I would suggest you clean up the transmission and see where it is leaking from and then attempt to repair THAT SPOT! Yes, there are a lot of possible places it can leak but most won't unless they get touched. First of all you have to be sure you are not overfilling. Check the level as per G:04:02. There are 2 kinds of leaks. One kind is where it leaks if the car is parked and the other kind is when you are driving. The first kind is easier to find and fix. Typically you fix leaks by replacing the "O" ring or gasket that is leaking, you shouldn't need to use any kind of a sealer. Always check not just the gasket or "O" ring, but the surfaces they mate to for the correct finish, scratches, gouges, flatness, etc. They are not meant to prevent leaks if the surfaces are all messed up.

[Jonathan]

David,

Could you elaborate on what you said there about leaks from overfilling as well as leaks while driving versus parked?

What leak points are more of a problem when you have it overfilled? Is this related to the fluid level sitting above a seal when it is parked instead of below it?

If the car had the exactly correct amount of ATF in it and was cold and shut off, where would the level be relative to the different seals? Above or below the dipstick tube seal, governor connections, cooler lines, etc.? What about while hot with the engine running?

I am thinking in terms of a car cross sectional drawing that would show where the level should be both cold and hot and where that level is relative to the different trans fluid system components? Maybe this already exists or someone crafty with CAD software could take a shot at it?

I know I have been chasing ATF leaks as well and figuring out where it is coming from seems to be the main problem. I too think determining the level is easier said than done. If we had a sketch of the car showing a low, good, and overfilled level versus the components, I think an auto trans owner could use that with the drip pattern on the garage floor to help figure it out.

Thanks.

[David T]

David,

Could you elaborate on what you said there about leaks from overfilling as well as leaks while driving versus parked?

What leak points are more of a problem when you have it overfilled? Is this related to the fluid level sitting above a seal when it is parked instead of below it?

If the car had the exactly correct amount of ATF in it and was cold and shut off, where would the level be relative to the different seals? Above or below the dipstick tube seal, governor connections, cooler lines, etc.? What about while hot with the engine running?

I am thinking in terms of a car cross sectional drawing that would show where the level should be both cold and hot and where that level is relative to the different trans fluid system components? Maybe this already exists or someone crafty with CAD software could take a shot at it?

I know I have been chasing ATF leaks as well and figuring out where it is coming from seems to be the main problem. I too think determining the level is easier said than done. If we had a sketch of the car showing a low, good, and overfilled level versus the components, I think an auto trans owner could use that with the drip pattern on the garage floor to help figure it out.

Thanks.

When you drive the car certain parts are under a lot of pressure like the cooler hoses and they can leak but not leak when the car is parked. If you overfill you can put too much pressure on seals and they will leak.

[Ryan King]

When you drive the car certain parts are under a lot of pressure like the cooler hoses and they can leak but not leak when the car is parked. If you overfill you can put too much pressure on seals and they will leak.

So it is a possibilty that mine is overload. I dont have my manual handy at the moment, but does anyone know how many quarts the transmission requires?

[Ryan King]

Anyone??

[David T]

Anyone??

You cannot properly measure how much is in the transmission by how much you remove. You can't get it all out unless you take it completely apart. To check the fluid level you get the car warmed up to operating temperature, park the car on level ground, leave the motor running, move the shift through each gear, place in park and check the dipstick. It has to be between cold and hot, should not smell burnt and when you feel it with your fingers should not be gritty or dark.

[DMCMW Dave]

So it is a possibilty that mine is overload. I dont have my manual handy at the moment, but does anyone know how many quarts the transmission requires?

As David T said, it's kind of an irrelevant number. If you were to completely drain the trans you might be able to get 8 quarts in it, but you can't really drain it without taking it apart. You measure it with the dipstick when hot and running. After adding fluid wait a few minutes to check it as you'll get an erroneous reading until it drains out of the filler tube.

[Jonathan]

Thought this was as good a place as any to ask an auto trans question.

Looking through the automatic transmission section (G) in the workshop manual, I saw a number of references cautioning the scalding hot temperature of the ATF. It says to be careful when checking or adding ATF as it is scalding hot, near 80 deg C or 176 deg F.

That makes me wonder about my own car as I have checked the ATF many times over the years, and a couple times recently, and any time I check it, it is no where near scalding or 80 deg C. I have followed the level checking procedure of parking it on flat ground, running the engine at idle speed long enough to get the cooling fans to cycle on and off (A/C is off), putting the shifter through PRND21 and back again, and then checking the level on the dipstick with the engine still running.

I can immediately feel the fluid on the paper towel right after taking it out of the dipstick tube and it is not HOT. I wouldn't even say WARM really, as if it were soup that temperature, it'd be sent back to the kitchen. My ATF level when I check is often beyond the COLD mark and somewhere approaching the WARM, but never it seems up to HOT. ATF is pretty thin and it doesn't stick or stay well on the dipstick, making it more difficult to see well, but my test seems like it is at a good level for about WARM, but the steps I take to get the engine up to coolant fan cycling temperature (below the half way tick on the temperature gauge (220 deg F), but after the one right before that), make me think it should be HOT.

What's the story here? Am I doing something wrong or is there some concern I should be looking into with ATF that doesn't seem to get very hot?

The transmission and car overall are doing fine. I know my kickdown switch is working ok as I can take it out on the highway and hammer it and it shifts down and has surprisingly good pick-up power. I kind of drove the sh!t out of it tonight, a little bit anyway for the normally conservative me, and it seemed to shift into 3rd from 2nd a little more boomingly (like not violent, but not subtle either). The last couple times I've gone for a drive, it seems like it doesn't get power to immediately get on with it right away after backing out of the driveway, yet it's fine by the time I'm at the far end of my street.

I don't believe there are any electrical fuse problems or harness wires melted or damaged, but I'll be checking again. Fluid doesn't smell burnt and is a nice bright colour red. I have my original filter that has never been pulled apart for cleaning and put back together (from the looks of it anyway when I had my pan off last year). I recently lubed my throttle spool and it seems ok and isn't sticking, but that delay I think is happening might be some slack in the linkage underneath the spool and connecting to the butterfly valves lever arm. I have adjusted it in the past and it might need another half turn to tighten it up. The corresponding end of the throttle cable that goes back down to the governor has not been adjusted anytime recently.

I don't know if what I have seen getting started on a drive would be considered "slipping from D" because in the diagnostic section of the workshop manual, it says that is the #32 issue and means rebuilding the roller clutch after you've taken the trans out of the car (yikes, no thank you).

I'll do the checks in order as I can but would like to hear what anyone thinks of ATF that isn't very HOT and if that or anything else comes to mind I should look into.

[Dangermouse]

I don't think you get any heat in the transmission until you put some load on it. Transfer of energy and all that.

Did you check the level after the run tonight? Was it still cool?

[Jonathan]

I don't think you get any heat in the transmission until you put some load on it. Transfer of energy and all that.

Did you check the level after the run tonight? Was it still cool?

You know, that makes sense. I didn't check it after the run tonight, but I'll do a repeat of it tomorrow and then check the level when I get back.

I can see the engine temperature gauge saying it is hot, but when you have the engine cover open and feel it on your face, that ambient heat coming off after just idling is nothing compared to doing it after just getting home from an afternoon drive.

I'll do some of the other checks on electrical and the linkages and then do the drive then test and report back. Thanks Dermot.

[David T]

It has to be checked after a good drive at operating temperature. Most of the heat is produced in the torque convertor. Because of all of the fluid, when it gets hot it expands and will read higher than cold. The cooler it runs the better but temperature isn't a problem unless it gets very high. Look for lost motion (play) in the quadrant link ends between the throttle spool and the throttle arm. You can't really judge things when it is cold and any power issues are probably due to the warm-up cycle. Abrupt shifts can be because the vacuum hose to the line pressure regulator aka vacuum capsule, are disconnected or leaking. Refer to 4-5-6 in the Parts manual #'s 26, 27, 28 and where it connects to the intake manifold. Don't forget to check the level in the final drive too, that's gear oil. Also do all of the external checks as per G:05:02-:03

[Jonathan]

It has to be checked after a good drive at operating temperature. Most of the heat is produced in the torque convertor. Because of all of the fluid, when it gets hot it expands and will read higher than cold. The cooler it runs the better but temperature isn't a problem unless it gets very high. Look for lost motion (play) in the quadrant link ends between the throttle spool and the throttle arm. You can't really judge things when it is cold and any power issues are probably due to the warm-up cycle. Abrupt shifts can be because the vacuum hose to the line pressure regulator aka vacuum capsule, are disconnected or leaking. Refer to 4-5-6 in the Parts manual #'s 26, 27, 28 and where it connects to the intake manifold. Don't forget to check the level in the final drive too, that's gear oil. Also do all of the external checks as per G:05:02-:03

Thanks for that, David. I'm glad to hear you say that.

I got to testing a few things yesterday:

- First off I checked fuse #13 and it looked fine as did the rest of the fuse and relay area. I have not yet gone under the car to inspect the governor harness wiring as it's hard for me to see or locate from the times I've tried before.
- I got looking a little closer at the throttle spool and linkage and saw the same excessive "play" you mentioned. The majority of it is coming from the ball and socket connection of the linkage, on the end that connects to the lever arm. Not much realistically, but say 1 mm from when you pull on the throttle cable until the lever arm starts to move. It's almost as if the socket is now too big for the ball, or the ball is too small. I would guess there is a "bearing" of sorts helping to "clip in" the ball (in addition to the safety clip you insert) and maybe it is a bit worn out? I see the linkage itself is still available from the NOS inventory in case I need to get a replacement.
- I adjusted what I could, with the set screws on the lever arm, and it got better and is a bit more responsive. I may need to keep playing with it though to keep it idling well when stopped and not feel like it's stumbling or about to stall.
- I went on the same drive as the day before to get the engine HOT. I'll do it again on a longer drive, but once home, the ATF level did read better, or it did read closer to where it should be. I could feel more heat on the dipstick and paper towel once removed. I don't think it got right up to full temperature as I didn't go very far on the drive, so we'll repeat that part soon.

I will get looking around more for the vacuum hoses you mentioned to double check nothing is split or leaking. All the coolant hoses on my car are new since I bought it, but not every vacuum hose has been replaced (yet). I have found a couple here or there that were cracked or split and have been replacing them as I find them.

[Jonathan]

One question, David:

The vacuum hose (#27 on the 4-5-6 page) where it connects to the intake manifold... is that at this connection?

http://store.delorean.com/p-6423-fitting-vacuum.aspx

It is #39 on that diagram and is on the driver's side of the engine as opposed to #41, which is also labelled as vacuum fitting and is on the passenger side. The description in the parts store page says one fitting for manuals and two for autos, so it is needed, no doubt, just not sure where it routes off to.

[David T]

One question, David:

The vacuum hose (#27 on the 4-5-6 page) where it connects to the intake manifold... is that at this connection?

http://store.delorean.com/p-6423-fitting-vacuum.aspx

It is #39 on that diagram and is on the driver's side of the engine as opposed to #41, which is also labelled as vacuum fitting and is on the passenger side. The description in the parts store page says one fitting for manuals and two for autos, so it is needed, no doubt, just not sure where it routes off to.

It doesn't matter which fitting so long as it connects to the intake manifold and sees engine vacuum all the time and doesn't leak.

[Jonathan]

It doesn't matter which fitting so long as it connects to the intake manifold and sees engine vacuum all the time and doesn't leak.

Got it. Was just wondering if one side or the other was historically for one connection versus another? Just to help me trace it if I can't follow every inch of the tubing as it snakes under and around the engine or trans.

I see that the vacuum is the same type or amount regardless of which side, it was more a matter of trying to better understand what was the original intention and then spot some irregularity that might pinpoint my problem.

What vacuum line hooks up to the second vacuum fitting then? Assuming they aren't both used to tie in directly to the auto trans components.

[DMCMW Dave]

Got it. Was just wondering if one side or the other was historically for one connection versus another? Just to help me trace it if I can't follow every inch of the tubing as it snakes under and around the engine or trans.

I see that the vacuum is the same type or amount regardless of which side, it was more a matter of trying to better understand what was the original intention and then spot some irregularity that might pinpoint my problem.

What vacuum line hooks up to the second vacuum fitting then? Assuming they aren't both used to tie in directly to the auto trans components.

The small one on the driver side is ignition/regulator vacuum via the vacuum switch(es). The large, lower one (if present) is the auto trans. The one on the passenger side tees to the brake booster and the heater control reservoir (thru a checkvalve).

[Jonathan]

The small one on the driver side is ignition/regulator vacuum via the vacuum switch(es). The large, lower one (if present) is the auto trans. The one on the passenger side tees to the brake booster and the heater control reservoir (thru a checkvalve).

I got looking at this today and need some clarification.

The one coming off the driver's side fitting looks to be the smaller of the two and the hose doesn't appear to tee into anything and looks like it snakes down towards the driver's side of the transmission.

The fitting on the passenger side of the engine looks to be the larger of the two fittings and then has a tee in it not too far away. From that tee go two hoses in different directions. When you said the passenger side one tees off to the brake booster and the heater control reservoir, are you saying it would tee off further up ahead towards the front of the car and the tee I am looking at is one half that hose going forward and the other half the hose going to the auto trans?

From what I read there it comes across like there should be three fittings, but I think there is only two. Looking at the part #27 from the previous posts, the hose from that fitting looks to go down to part of the auto trans shift computer governor set-up and that is on the driver's side of the car. What am I missing to make this confusing?

[DMCMW Dave]

I don't know what I could write to clarify. The only thing that might be confusing is that a manual transmission car only has one fitting on each side. The heater control reservoir is in the left rear pontoon.


Sent from phone

[Jonathan]

I don't know what I could write to clarify. The only thing that might be confusing is that a manual transmission car only has one fitting on each side. The heater control reservoir is in the left rear pontoon.


Sent from phone

Ok, I'll double check. I hadn't thought there were two fittings on one of the sides, but given it's not easy for me to get a good view of that area leaning in, I might not have seen it.

[Timebender]

Warm up the car, shift through the gears while standing still. Pull out the dipstick and wipe it off. Stick it all the way back in and count to 3. Pull it out and while holding it level (so it doesn't drip) check both sides looking for a line. It should be between the add and full marks. It should also be nice and red and not smell burnt. Rub some between your fingers and it should not feel gritty. Don't forget to also check the final drive. On the automatic it is a different area and you have to go under the car and remove the level plug to check.
David Teitelbaum
You mean on a manual car you need to go under and check. My car is lowered, so I'm guessing if I jack up the back to get under it, I need to jack up the front too in order to have it level in the transmission, or get the car on a rack somewhere.

[David T]

The only way to check the level in the transmission on a 5-speed is to get the car up off the ground and level. You remove the plug in the side of the transmission and check the level. You might have to stick a straw or toothpick or Q-tip or something if the level is down to try to find the level. If it is very low dump the oil and refill with fresh. ALWAYS remove the side plug BEFORE removing the bottom, drain plug. The plugs are often VERY tight and usually require an adapter (Snap-On PP-412) to get the plugs loose. Often they are also all mashed up from people trying to remove them with vise-grips, pipe wrenches, adjustable wrenches et al. You can most of the time get the plugs loose by hammering the adapter onto the plug and then unscrewing them.

[Timebender]

Good to know. Thanks David.