Injector seals not sealing

[Jonathan]

Any advice or suggestions would be appreciated. Or something you might see that shouldn't be there or might be missing and I don't realize it.

I've been putting in a brand new set of SS fuel lines, fuel injectors, injector clips and seals. New copper washers used throughout. I have put in all of the 13 new lines except the main feed line coming up from the filter. Will do that later. I've also done the frequency valve lines which required cutting off the one hose from the FV barb and putting in the short rubber jumper hose.

The fuel lines are from DPI that I bought through a forum member here when he didn't need them after going EFI. The new injectors, seals and clips are from DeLoreanGO in the UK. New Bosch 022 injectors were used.

I got everything in more or less fine initially. Struggled with the tendency of the new SS lines to want to twist, so took those six injector lines back out and put the new injectors on the ends while in a bench vice and torqued them to 9 ft lb. I sensed no twisting on those ends when I finished this. I also removed the ISM and bracket to give more space to work and route the lines around things. Spark plug wires clip in snug (those were brand new in 2016).

I jumpered the fuel pump to run at the RPM relay. No leaks noticed at this time. I fired up the car and it took probably eight separate tries to get it to fire up. Had to push the gas pedal down 1/4 way as I think it needed some extra effort to push any air out of the lines, into the cylinders and then stay running. The engine caught and idles quite nicely. But a couple of these seals are still leaking.

The ones on the passenger side (cylinders 1,2,3) look pretty dry, but not so much on the driver's side. 5 and 6 are the worst and 4 looks like it could be dry still, but harder to get a good view on that one.

I'm at a loss for what I'm doing wrong. Got thinking maybe it's something else like a missing part or the wrong sized seal maybe. I've included some pictures and if you see anything not right, please say so. The injector clips are new and seem to grab tight when pushed down. It takes some effort to spring them off anyway. I see this injector support part is what the clip grabs. Are these loose inserts? Or are they welded to the block? I assume mine are okay, but don't know really. There doesn't seem to be enough of a gap to fit any additional support in there. The injectors seem to centre themselves pretty well without a lot of slop.

https://store.delorean.com/p-6605-injector-support.aspx

I still don't understand why the fuel is bubbling up like it is with the engine running. Is there any chance it's from having too much fuel in the cylinders, i.e. flooding, when I started it and it is just working it's way out? I don't feel good about driving the car like it is right now. Coolant dripping I can tolerate. Not fuel though. It worries me too much to just leave it like it is and hope that it will be fine.

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[Ron]

If you can see it bubbling while the engine is running, my first thought would be that the copper seals are too loose since they are new and the vacuum from the engine would basically 'hide' leaks anywhere else in the area.
Try dusting the area well with baby powders to help catch where the fuel first comes out.

The copper seals are supposed to be used once only. Technically, unless pure copper, which I doubt, they harden with "work" or age...

The injector supports are pressed in (not a likely source for the leak, which vacuum would hide anyway).

FWIW, pressing the pedal down on K-Jet systems when the engine is not running does virtually nothing (except wrt to microswitches).

[Ron]

Took another look at your pics...it looks like you are missing the upper copper seal here??

59941

[DMCMW Dave]

Took another look at your pics...it looks like you are missing the upper copper seal here??

59941

That would certainly be a problem. Also 9 ft-lb may not be tight enough. Normally I'm all for torque wrenches but this is one of those things you develop a feel for.

[Jonathan]

If you can see it bubbling while the engine is running, my first thought would be that the copper seals are too loose since they are new and the vacuum from the engine would basically 'hide' leaks anywhere else in the area.
Try dusting the area well with baby powders to help catch where the fuel first comes out.

Can you explain what you meant here a little further, Ron?

How would the copper seals be 'loose' still if they were all torqued to the required specification? And how would the copper seals being 'new' contribute to that? Isn't new better when it comes to the seals? And what did you mean with the engine vacuum hiding leaks elsewhere? Can you give me an example location where a leak would be hidden?

When I had the engine running, and no fuel present around any of the injectors, it seemed pretty clear to me it was bubbling up right at the clips. Like lower down right on top of the rubber seal. Either with the fuel bubbling up on the outside of the rubber seal surface against the inside of the injector support, or bubbling up between the rubber seal and the injector itself. It didn't look to have a lot of pressure behind it, which might be consistent with it being through the seal and after it has come spraying out of the tip of the injector. If the leak was right at the copper seal, either above or below the banjo bolt, it would come spraying out of there pretty good. I had one of those a few days ago and it was noticeably different.

I just double checked that injector you mentioned about possibly not having the top copper seal and it is there. Hard to see, so I used one of those mirrors on a stick gadgets, but it is in place.

[Jonathan]

That would certainly be a problem. Also 9 ft-lb may not be tight enough. Normally I'm all for torque wrenches but this is one of those things you develop a feel for.

I'll say, awesome, and thanks. But also say that the abundance of contradictory instructions or advice on the forum here is pretty frustrating. I know the 'feel' ones are hard to pin point or nail down to a specific number, but the rest of the stuff like don't use old copper seals twice/go ahead and use them again really irks me. Convenience aside or having easy access to new parts or tools, etc. no one likes rework when you tried to do it the way you thought was right only to have to tear into things all over again because you're told something new (and equally convincing of being right). Rework that involves taking a pile of different PITA things apart again to get to the one thing you need to do differently bothers the crap out of me. Anywho, that's that. Thanks and have a nice day.

[DMCMW Dave]

They can be leaky if the copper seals weren't perfect, or if there is any kind of flaw in the steel on the fitting itself. Also low torque settings on torque wrenches are notoriously inaccurate. Unless you are using a small in-lb torque wrench. I usually go "really tight" with a 3/8 ratchet. I'm not strong enough to break off a banjo bolt with a 3/8 ratchet.

He wants to you to use powder to localize the leak and be sure it's not where the hoses attach to the fittings, for example. My guess is that you just need to go tighter.

[DeLoreanGo Arran]

Also - are you sure those banjo bolts aren't bottoming out...? The reason I say is because I recognise them...:) - They are slightly longer than original bolts, and depending on the size of the banjo eye you would normally find they are 0.5mm too long for the injectors, so a thicker copper washer must be used.
When we sell these as a kit they come with 12 thicker washers just for use on the injectors themselves: https://www.deloreango.com/ca/complete-stainless-banjo-bolt-kit.html

Or you could just saw 2mm off the ends. (only those 6).

But if the eyes on those hoses are 1mm thicker than originals you'd be fine.

[Ron]

I.E. "Loose" possibly because, "9lbs is at the extreme end of your torque wrench, which is not as accurate as with mid scale".
0.25 ft/lb means a lot at 9 ft/lb.


Sorry for the confusion...let me try punctuation...:tongue2:
If you can see it bubbling while the engine is running, my first thought would be that the copper seals are too loose. I say this because the coppers are new (ie shouldn't be the source of the problem when installed as described...) AND the vacuum from the engine would basically 'hide' leaks anywhere else in the area.
Anything else that could leak would be drawn in by the engine's vacuum -- You would have a vacuum leak (possibly mixed with fuel...), not a fuel leak.

RE EX: Fuel could be weeping so thin that you can't see it until it collects where the injector and rubber seal mate. If it is too loose there, the engine could draw the fuel in making it impossible to ever spot the origin (w/o baby powders/??), or the fact that you have a leak.

"Invisible"! ;-)

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Seems that you could see the upper washer just as well if they were the same size??? Must be the angle or ??
Just in case...there is a surface like a builtin washer machined on the bolt...

Sounds like you have spare hardware....I'd say confirm with the powder, then nudge it a little tighter.


EDIT: I got called away in the middle of replying and missed some posts.
+1, Dave.
+ "Ah ha", Arron.