Can't start after valley job

[Parzival]

I took my car back apart to change the water pump, which I eventually got done, and I got my cooling system to hold 15 PSI for 15 minutes and ended the test.
I re assembled everything and could not get the car to start for anything, I tried all the usual stuff.
I took the mixture unit back out, checked everything, and put it back together again. Still no start, until today.
I got it to finally start, it ran for about 2 minutes, and then died out. I couldn't re start it again after that.
The question I want to ask is about this gurgling sound I get after attempting to start the car.
In this video if you listen right after each start attempt you will hear it.
P.S. the smoke in the video is I believe from the exhaust. Like cleaner and stuff that got on there during all the work, just burning away.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVAw1ddumuA&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVAw1ddumuA&feature=youtu.be

[mr_maxime]

Have you checked the inertia switch? Mine had a similar issue after a job in the VOD. I never sorted it out properly, but I did notice that the bypass on my inertia switch had melted.

[Parzival]

Have you checked the inertia switch? Mine had a similar issue after a job in the VOD. I never sorted it out properly, but I did notice that the bypass on my inertia switch had melted.

being that it started at least once leads me to think its not that, but I will check..

[Bitsyncmaster]

Make sure you did not forget to connect the vacuum hoses and the pipe of agony is seated.

[AugustneverEnds]

Before you replaced your water pump was your thermotime time switch operational? Have you checked to see if the cold start valve is spraying fuel?

I'd spray starting fluid directly into the intake and see if it makes a difference. From the sound you are hearing I think you are looking at a fuel delivery problem. Maybe your distributor and/or lines are full of air and you just need to keep trying it and push the air out.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Before you replaced your water pump was your thermotime time switch operational? Have you checked to see if the cold start valve is spraying fuel?

I'd spray starting fluid directly into the intake and see if it makes a difference. From the sound you are hearing I think you are looking at a fuel delivery problem. Maybe your distributor and/or lines are full of air and you just need to keep trying it and push the air out.

+1
When your injector lines are dry you need the cold start injector to get the engine started.

[vwdmc16]

After opening fuel lines, I always prime the pump a few times, then depress the metering flap fully and repeat 3 times to bleed out any air in the fuel distributor and injectors.

After that it starts.

Sounds like the injectors arent fully primed to me.

[Parzival]

trust me the lines are primed. I've been trying for days to start it. I even jumpered the relay and let the fuel pump run. I pressed down on the plate to look at the injectors spraying.
and in the video you can see it ran for a few minutes before it died. after running for a few minutes the cold start valve might not even be of concern if it got warm enough.

[Ron]

It seems that everyone thinks it sounds like it is starving for fuel in the vid, I agree.
Try short spurts of starting fluid while you crank it over like Nick suggested.

[Parzival]

Went back and for the past hour I tried all the suggestions, as well as pulled the cold start valve to check it is working correctly, It is.
I tried again until I ran the battery out again. Gonna have to put it back on charge.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Check your pipe of agony. Remove the air cleaner, shine a light on the drivers side where the pipe enters the mixture unit, press the air flap down and see if any light is showing around the end of the pipe.

[Parzival]

Check your pipe of agony. Remove the air cleaner, shine a light on the drivers side where the pipe enters the mixture unit, press the air flap down and see if any light is showing around the end of the pipe.

Yeah, I'm pretty comfortable with the air pipe. I've removed and reinstalled my idle speed motor dozens of times during my ownership, and I've never found the pipe hard to install into the mixture unit. I always place a very thin bit of gasket silicon on it when ever I place it. I can see its all the way in looking through the plate.

[Parzival]

What do guys think the chances are that its just crazy flooded? Like that cold start valve has just been firing away and now the plugs are wet, and the cylinders are full of gas?
I mean I've been trying like hell to get it started.
It ran for 2 minutes or so the other day, which leads me to believe that it would have cleared the flooding during that, but could be flooded again I suppose?
Thoughts?

[Citizen]

What do guys think the chances are that its just crazy flooded? Like that cold start valve has just been firing away and now the plugs are wet, and the cylinders are full of gas?
I mean I've been trying like hell to get it started.
It ran for 2 minutes or so the other day, which leads me to believe that it would have cleared the flooding during that, but could be flooded again I suppose?
Thoughts?

Suggestion: Pick one or two cylinders easiest to remove the plug and look inside with a flash light (be sure to use your air compressor to blow away any dirt/debris BEFORE removing the plug, lest debris make its way down into the cylinder). You might be able to tell if the cylinder is dry. If so, you're probably not flooded. If dry, you can then spray a shot of starter fluid directly into the cylinder(s) and replace the plug/wire quickly, then try to start the car. Maybe one or two cylinders will fire.

Thomas

...

[David T]

If it doesn't start (and you just worked on it) the problem is most likely something you just did. A bad part, a part not installed correctly, a wire or hose forgotten or accidentally knocked loose, that kind of thing. The first step is a visual inspection. Hard to do since it is your mistake and you already missed it so the chances of seeing it are low. Best to get someone else who may see it. Next is to start from the beginning and check for spark and/or fuel. See if there is pressure on the air sensor plate when you try pushing it down to confirm fuel pressure. Try a shot of Ether while cranking to see if it will fire or pull an HT lead and check for spark (Do NOT try both at the same time!!!!). Once you can confirm the lack of fuel or spark you have at least narrowed it down to which system to trouble-shoot.

[Erik]

I would double check the firing order and replace the spark plugs, may be fouled out by now with all of the extra fuel from trying to start.

[Parzival]

Today, I took the plugs out and cleaned them, I put a borescope down the holes ( i don't really know why, I just kinda did) everything looked fine I guess, just saw the top of the cylinders. I put the scope down into the valley just to make sure my connections there survived the installation of the manifold, again all looked well.
Re assembled and.... .....Drum Roll..... .....Nothing happened. Still dead as a door nail, and I'm outa stuff to try. Probably gonna tow it to DMCFL and have them fix whatever I screwed up. Remember it was running fine before I decided to replace the water pump.

[Parzival]

I would double check the firing order and replace the spark plugs, may be fouled out by now with all of the extra fuel from trying to start.

It did actually run for 2 minutes before, so order is good.

[kings1527]

Check your pipe of agony. Remove the air cleaner, shine a light on the drivers side where the pipe enters the mixture unit, press the air flap down and see if any light is showing around the end of the pipe.

+1 on that. I had a similar situation happen not long ago and even though I fitted the pipe of agony in place correctly, it ultimately popped out of place as I was putting the idle speed motor back in place. If you were working fine before the teardown, this is going to be something simple. Chances of a part going bad at the exact same time as all this is remote. The thermotime switch has a built in cutoff to prevent flooding of the engine due to repeated cranking (that's the TIME in thermotime) so I don't think you'd have an issue there. On the other hand, a pipe of agony out of place gives a very distinct and pretty loud hiss as you're cranking. Trust me.

You're sure the fuel lines were all replaced in proper locations? Maybe a plug swap check....warm up regulator plug to the cold start plug....and then try starting it. If you run for a brief time but then conks out as soon as you unplug it, at least you rule out electrical and can further investigate the fuel path but aside from inertia switch and fuel pump problems which you seem confident are absent, I'm still leaning towards a vacuum leak somewhere or misplaced fuel lines. Going with a simple fix here somewhere in the valley teardown process.

And one other thing...was the mixture unit out long enough for the distributor plunger to get stuck? Worth a check since fuel is the likely culprit here.

[Ron]

Sure sounds more and more like air/fuel... No mention of smelling raw gas after all of that cranking. Pulled plugs and everything looked fine -- The plugs and chamber etc, should of been soaked proper by now, spark or not ;-)

[81dmc]

It really sounds like it's trying to start.

You can try a shot of starter fluid. Exactly when the engine fires, mash accelerator to 50% or so and hold it for 10 seconds. Always worked when I had my frequent k jet problems. In fact, I made it a habit to start with the accel pushed only partially so it would start up 99% of the time. If you mash it to the floor, it may not start at all.

As for gurgling... Oil? Maybe coolant?

[mark w]

Since youve been cranking and cranking, enough to kill the battery, then your washing fuel in to the cylinders and washing away the oil. Thats all ending up in the oil pan....so once you get it going. Change the oil, because its most likely contaminated with Fuel and now too thin. I suggest you find the problem and reduce the cranking and cranking....your could be causing bearing and ring damage.

[kings1527]

Since youve been cranking and cranking, enough to kill the battery, then your washing fuel in to the cylinders and washing away the oil. Thats all ending up in the oil pan....so once you get it going. Change the oil, because its most likely contaminated with Fuel and now too thin. I suggest you find the problem and reduce the cranking and cranking....your could be causing bearing and ring damage.

That's what Ron was getting at a few posts back along with other posts. It doesn't sound like anything fuel related is happening at all, especially since he pulled the plugs and they were fine. But in other circumstances, you're absolutely correct about the issue with oil getting thinned out.

[Parzival]

don't worry guys, I'll be changing the oil as soon as I get it started.
The cold start valve is firing, so there is some fuel activity. I jumped the fuel pump and pressed down on the plate with one of the injectors out and it sprayed nice. I wonder tho if one is leaking and causing a problem. Well, actually I wonder a lot of things at this point. I have no idea what to check or try,
as far as the pipe of agony goes, it keeps coming up, I used to borescope to look all around it. its in there and sealed up. Like I said before I alway rub a tinny bit of gasket silicone on it when I put it in. so it should be air tight.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Do you see the tach moving when your cranking the engine?

[kings1527]

And the results from the plug swap test?

[Parzival]

Do you see the tach moving when your cranking the engine?

Yes I believe so.


And the results from the plug swap test?

Makes no difference.

[kings1527]

Ok. So if a plug swap made no difference, then that points to electrical. A plug swap will force fuel into the manifold and if it’s not starting after that, then it rules out fuel.

I’d start with making sure your battery is good and also look at the ballast resistor to make sure nothing came undone. A strong possibility since you were doing work in the area. Also check the connections at the coil to make sure all is well and good there. This is all assuming no work was done to any plugs or plug wires, Cap and rotor. It’s also assuming that when you took out the mixture unit, no changes were made to the mixture screw; the unit was simply removed and then replaced without doing anything else to it.

[Ron]

That makes sense to me. But no spark would make it flood and there is no sign of flooding...

A viscous circle...:hmm:

[Parzival]

That makes sense to me. But no spark would make it flood and there is no sign of flooding...

A viscous circle...:hmm:

right, and when i'm trying to start it a get a few pops here and there like 2 cylinders fire but nothing consistent.
and there's the fact that I somehow got it to run for 2 minutes that one time. meaning that the spark plugs were at least working then, and the cap and rotor and coil and all that.

[kings1527]

That makes sense to me. But no spark would make it flood and there is no sign of flooding...

A viscous circle...:hmm:

Agreed. But when he presses down on the plate, he’s getting good spray from an injector that’s been removed? Like you said, fuel is fine but no spark but not flooding?And everything electrical checks out? Not sure if fuel and spark have been confirmed as reported...

[Ron]

I doubt where he held the plate and where the vacuum holds it while cranking is the same place, I.E., he showed they (it) can spray, but not that they are while cranking.

A this point I wouldn't bet a penny either way with odds lol. But I just can't get over the way it sure sounds like fuel starvation in the vid (to me) and dry cylinders after all that cranking and ether??

+1...something is not jiving!
=====
Something is being missed or there are several intermittent problems...
Back to square one:
I think it's safe to say it's not compression. That leaves A/F or spark.
So, I would disconnect a wire at the fuel pump, continually jump or boost the battery, pull all of the easy plugs (use a spare on the hard one), make sure they are well away from the ports and grounded. Then crank it over and confirm good sparks through all. If OK, continue cranking as long as I felt the starter wasn't being abused to clear the cylinders out. (Then blow the cylinders out with air if available.) Reinstall the plugs, leave the pump disconnected and try it. It probably won't do anything, but give it a chance to fire off and quit, blow out through the intake/exhaust (in fashion;-), whatever. Then try running it with starting fluid. If OK, reconnect the pump and go from there.

[Parzival]

So how can I test the fuel. Put the injectors in jars and jump the fuel pump?
Press on the plate and see what happens?

[Ron]

Wondering if border line fuel pressure fits all of the above...?

[Parzival]

Wondering if border line fuel pressure fit all of the above...?

I have the fuel pressure gages for testing. I just got them and have never used them. Is there a good tutorial on how to use them? I could hook them up. Or does it need to be running to perform this test?

[Ron]

The workshop manual shows how to do it.

I wouldn't go there yet...amending the above lol...personally, before that or the above, I'd jump it with another vehicle since the charger allows the starter to kill the battery (leave it hooked up). Then confirm that all plug wires are firing with a good plug, cycle the key to prime the system, leave it on, confirm the plate is firm and press it down, once, quickly, cycle the key again. Then have someone crank it while I held the throttle open ~1/8-1/4 of the way open and press the plate down 2-3 times the amount the engine's vacuum was pulling it down. If there wasn't a sweet spot found playing with the throttle/plate, I'd try it again, after a good shot of ether under the plate.
(I'd be surprised if it wouldn't run, controlling it manually.)
Next up, confirm spark right at all plugs and double check for signs of flooding.
Then do the injector and pressures tests.

[AugustneverEnds]

I've been giving some thought to your problem and I'm wondering if you might have a poor seal between the intake manifold and heads. Did you replace the o-rings? Did all four bolts go in securely? The reason I ask is four years ago I had to go into the valley and after I put everything back together the car started and ran for a few minutes and then died and refused to start again. I remembered one of the bolts for the manifold seemed to offer little resistance when I bolted it down. Tore it all apart again and upon inspection I saw not one but two of the holes needed to be rethreaded, they were nearly smooth! I retapped them from M7 to M8 and it fixed the problem.

Also it doesn't hurt to quadruple check the wires and terminals and the ballast resistor itself. My car wouldn't start this spring and it was the ballast resistor and poor connections.

[kings1527]

Was this riddle ever solved?

[Parzival]

Was this riddle ever solved?
Yes but not by me. It ended up being a small mistake.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1q7odnBFto

[kings1527]

Awesome. Glad to see it was something small. I've never even considered a split in the ISM elbow but it makes sense since it plays a major role in the vacuum system. I'll have to keep an eye on mine.

And then the distributor cap....been there, done that. I put mine upside down one time, put EVERYTHING all back together and then would get a nice, massive backfire when trying to start it for the first time. Distributor cap misplacement happens a lot more frequently than you'd think. Very nice car, btw.