Liner Seals

[Parzival]

So we got my heads of last week, and I haven't had time to go back out to the car until today. When we pulled the heads we were carful not to pull up the piston liners or turn over the engine. Some coolant was left in the cylinder banks and over the week it looks like some of it leaked down into the oil pan. (you've got to be kidding me!)
The liners look full seated, but this is alarming. The heads are waiting to surfaced, but now I need to make sure the liner seals are in good shape. I know what it means if they are not...

The real question"
1) Is it normal for some very slow leaking to occur when the heads are off due to the liners not have the clamping force on them from the heads?
2) Is there a way to verify the liner seals are ok, or not ok?

I guess I'm just waiting to hear how screwed I am,
On the plus side the metal in my block all looks nice and not corroded (No rot)

[David T]

If the coolant was not leaking into the oil before you took the heads off AND you did NOT move the pistons with the heads off you are probably OK.

[Parzival]

If the coolant was not leaking into the oil before you took the heads off AND you did NOT move the pistons with the heads off you are probably OK.

I like your optimism!
so just leaking slow because of the lack of clamping force perhaps?
It was left for a whole week.

[David T]

The coolant could have just leaked past the rings. When cold the gaps open up.

[Parzival]

The coolant could have just leaked past the rings. When cold the gaps open up.

Well there wasn't coolant in the pistons. It was in the water jacket, and over a week it sat there, and when I went back a week later it leaked into the pan, the only way it could have leaked was past the liner seals. Thats what I'm worried about.

[David T]

Did the oil level rise? Is there any coolant in the oil? I misunderstood, I thought you had said there was some coolant on top of the pistons. I guess you could pressurize the cooling system if you can block off the tops of the liners with a plate. Otherwise the safest course of action is to replace the liner seals if you doubt their integrity.

[Parzival]

So is there no way to check the liner seals? Most people drain the block before removing the heads. So how do they know if the liner seals were disturbed? I left coolant siting in there for a week, and over that time it seemed that coolant leaked passed the seals, however If I had cleaned all the coolant out right when the heads came off this would never have been a concern and I would have just had the heads machined and put them back on.
Must be some way to tell!? the liners seem to still be in place?
I'm thinking I can fill up the cylinder banks (not the pistons) with water and see if it drips into the pan, but with out the heads on they are not clamped down with and force.
I'll reiterate that the engine looks great inside, the liners look great, the cylinders have a great cross hatch pattern still.
What to do what to do...

[mark w]

I think these "seals" are not seals at all, originally they are made from several thicknesses of paper with different color tabs for different thicknesses, and 40 year old paper at that. They act as spacers- to shim the liner to the top of the block and perfectly flush. maybe now with the clamping force removed after taking off the heads the joint allows coolant liquid to bleed thru that joint.

Some vendors sell these spacers in metal now also.

Mark

[Parzival]

I guess I need to figure out if I can continue with the head gasket replacement, or if I need to find a place I can pull the engine and fully rebuild...
Guess there is no good way to know.... :(

[mark w]

I guess I need to figure out if I can continue with the head gasket replacement, or if I need to find a place I can pull the engine and fully rebuild...
Guess there is no good way to know.... :(
id call all the dmc techs around and ask them.

[David T]

Mark w may have got it. With the clamping pressure removed from the liners, the coolant could have passed by the liner seals. Another opinion is a good idea. Check with one of the Delorean vendors. It would be a shame to have to take the engine out and all apart if it isn't necessary.

[Parzival]

I'm not risking putting it back toghether only to discover the liner seals are leaking, so heres how to change them without pulling the engine.

To remove the pistons and liners you must remove the rod caps,
to do that you must remove the oil pan,
to do that you must lift the engine to gain access the bolts holding the oil pan on.
I loosened the engine mounts (i'm replacing them since the engine is jacked up anyway) and them removed the oil pan, oil pick up, and the splash plate. This now gives me access to the rod caps.
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Now that I have access to remove the pistons and liners I must also plan and prepare to reinstall them with the new seals. Since Ill be turning the crank during the reinstall of the liners, a set of liner locks will come in handy to hold each newly installed liner and seal.
My lack of proper facilities necessitated that I find a way to make these in my living room.
Some aluminum, a hack saw, a center punch, and some sand paper, and here we go, liner locks! just add 8 12X1.5 bolts and we're in business.
61493
61494
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With this I now believe that I have everything ready to pull the liners and pistons and put them back in with new seals.
Stay tuned for the exciting conclusion!

[Ron]

Looks like you are all over it! :thumbup:

[Parzival]

Looks like you are all over it! :thumbup:

I hope so! This is far beyond anything I've ever done. If it were not for DMC-81s help, I wouldn't have gotten this far!

[Parzival]

As promised, here are the engine mounts! They driver side bolt came out without any protest, the passenger side was a bit stuck. I know these bolts can break and cause a head ache, so I soaked it in break cleaner for an hour, then PB Blaster over night. Today when I returned I locked 2 nuts onto it, and started trying to rotate it. It started to move in the whole after a few minutes, and then after turning it for a few seconds it really opened up, and slid right out.
the frame will enjoy being clean in this area. New engine mounts are on on the way!
61500
61501

[Giamanut]

I'm not risking putting it back toghether only to discover the liner seals are leaking, so heres how to change them without pulling the engine.

To remove the pistons and liners you must remove the rod caps,
to do that you must remove the oil pan,
to do that you must lift the engine to gain access the bolts holding the oil pan on.
I loosened the engine mounts (i'm replacing them since the engine is jacked up anyway) and them removed the oil pan, oil pick up, and the splash plate. This now gives me access to the rod caps.
61491
61492
61497
Now that I have access to remove the pistons and liners I must also plan and prepare to reinstall them with the new seals. Since Ill be turning the crank during the reinstall of the liners, a set of liner locks will come in handy to hold each newly installed liner and seal.
My lack of proper facilities necessitated that I find a way to make these in my living room.
Some aluminum, a hack saw, a center punch, and some sand paper, and here we go, liner locks! just add 8 12X1.5 bolts and we're in business.
61493
61494
61495
61496
With this I now believe that I have everything ready to pull the liners and pistons and put them back in with new seals.
Stay tuned for the exciting conclusion!

How long are those M12 x 1.5 Bolts bottom of head to tip?

[Parzival]

How long are those M12 x 1.5 Bolts bottom of head to tip?

About 2 inches


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[Parzival]

New motor mounts are in, and I'm done cleaning around the engine.
61525
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and some of my parts ready for reassembly,
61527
The machine shop is still working on my heads, so I have some time.
I need to pull each liner out one by one and replace the seal, but I'm still nervous about it. I have the paper liner shims and I just don't see how they are able to seal anything. I know they must work because that is whats in all these cars.
Time to man up and just do it I guess...

[Giamanut]

About 2 inches


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Head bolt M12 x 1.5 x 178 tty
ES72599 felpro I believe.

[Parzival]

Head bolt M12 x 1.5 x 178 tty
ES72599 felpro I believe.

Are talking about the length of the head bolts? or the length or the bolts I used for the liner locks? Liner lock bolts must be much shorter as the head is removed.
Head bolts are much longer, I ordered new head bolts from one of the Delorean vendors.

[Parzival]

Refurbished the idler pulley and bracket today with new bearings. The old ones were really squeaky and hart to turn.
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While you're in there, am I right?

[Giamanut]

Are talking about the length of the head bolts? or the length or the bolts I used for the liner locks? Liner lock bolts must be much shorter as the head is removed.
Head bolts are much longer, I ordered new head bolts from one of the Delorean vendors.

Yeah head bolts but they are definitely not the ES72599 felpro that i mentioned earlier

[Parzival]

Yeah head bolts but they are definitely not the ES72599 felpro that i mentioned earlier
Its these

61557

[Parzival]

Ok so back to the liner seals, I removed the liners and pistons from 1, 2, and 3. made sure to keep track of which was which, and the orientation. I put in the thickest yellow shim, and they do not protrude from the block enough! I've heard of people stacking the shims, but that sounds like a bad idea. I am getting the correct protrusion on the inner side (between the liner and valley) but on the other side, its like they are flush, no gap at all.
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[Ron]

WSManual C:06:02:

6158361581


Note the sleeves are resting...

[David T]

Setting the protusion or "nip" is vital to proper sealing. This step is among the most important so take your time. You don't have to have a dial indicator to do it but it is nice. You can use feeler gauges. Follow the procedure in the Workshop manual as closely as you can. C:06:02-:03. If necessary you can mix and match the liners. You should not have to stack (use multiple shims in a cylinder) but because not all sizes are available and you are using a very limited number of parts to try to match up, you may have to.

[Parzival]

Setting the protusion or "nip" is vital to proper sealing. This step is among the most important so take your time. You don't have to have a dial indicator to do it but it is nice. You can use feeler gauges. Follow the procedure in the Workshop manual as closely as you can. C:06:02-:03. If necessary you can mix and match the liners. You should not have to stack (use multiple shims in a cylinder) but because not all sizes are available and you are using a very limited number of parts to try to match up, you may have to.

Yeah, I dont have that gage, and they appear to be about 200 dollars. I need this to be right, so if I have to buy one I will. My concern right now it that I have the thickest shim size in there, and its not enough to give me the protrusion I need. I'm gonna play around with them and see what I can do to get as close to the .023mm as I can. Its supposed to be between .016 and .023 and the book suggests working as close to .023 as possible. Some have used metal shims that volvo started using in later PRVs, but I can't find those for sale anywhere!
If I sack multiple shims I read in a volvo forum that you can use copper seal spray to stick them toghether. I'll keep you guys posted, and appreciate any further comments are recommendations!

[SS Spoiler]

I thought DPI had a way to machine the bottom
of the block to accept a uniform spacer/sealer so it
would all be the same?...

[Parzival]

I thought DPI had a way to machine the bottom
of the block to accept a uniform spacer/sealer so it
would all be the same?...

Well, he lives on the other side of the country from me. I’m doing all this with the engine still in the car. So it would be pretty tough to get that done.


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[David T]

Any good machine shop can do that but to get them all the same means cutting the block to make them all the same size. To make them all the same but smaller would mean trying to weld and add materiel and then machine the surfaces. That is a LOT of work if it is even possible. Then you must machine the liners so they are all exactly the same. Now you see why there are shims of varying thickness. To account for manufacturing tolerances and be able to set the protrusion very precisely. Before trying to re-engineer things consider that you are also working with dissimilar materials and they have different rates of expansion. Unless you know what you are doing and want to experiment, the best advice is to follow the procedures in the manual. As for that fancy dial indicator, all you really need is someone to make that block and mount a dial indicator on it. Not that big a deal. Make sure before inserting the shims or liners you got that bottom surface REALLY REALLY clean. If you are getting different readings side-to-side maybe you need to do more cleaning. Or try turning the liners and see if that helps. Or try another liner in that spot. "Difference in level liner to liner may be made by selective insertion". What it means is you can try different liners til you get the right fit. To move the liners around you should hone each liner and use new rings. I would try to keep the pistons and rods in their original cylinders but use new bearings if the old ones show any wear. The moving parts are all balanced so you should try to keep them where they were and as they were. Liners can be moved around.

[Parzival]

Ok ok, I went back over everything. I ordered shims from different venders, and the yellow ones form one were defiantly thinner then from another. The DMC Huston were not actually yellow, but they were thicker then the yellow ones I ordered from delorean go. I swapped them and now I have a protrusion at each cylinder of about .18 to .20mm at least thats what it seems like by the feeler gages.

[Ron]

When doing this on an engine stand, the sleeves would be resting with the boor straight up (as in the diagrams above). In the vehicle, to hold them in place, you need to use 2 straps per sleeve, barely hand tightened, evenly.
(Curious if the one strap was "tight"/??)

You report that, with a seal installed, one side is OK (at least 0.16mm) and the other flush (0.0 mm). Something is wrong here -- When measuring (without a shim) the difference between any two places on a given sleeve should not exceed 0.05mm -- you have over triple that!

Sounds like you might not be set up right and/or there is debris at a mating surfaces (or at least one is damaged, not likely).

FWIW, In my previous post, I was pointing at the way the sleeves were seated, not what to measure their protrusion with. As far as that goes, you are measuring something with tolerances having significant digits in the ten thousandth of an inch range (E.G., 0.04mm = 0.0016", max difference in steps). I'll just say, fingers and the fourth decimal place aren't an ideal mix, imho.

[Ron]

Ok ok, I went back over everything. I ordered shims from different venders, and the yellow ones form one were defiantly thinner then from another. The DMC Huston were not actually yellow, but they were thicker then the yellow ones I ordered from delorean go. I swapped them and now I have a protrusion at each cylinder of about .18 to .20mm at least thats what it seems like by the feeler gages.
That could explain why the one was so low....Wait, I don't see how you could get the flush one up to .18mm when the largest shim is .165mm.

Is the difference in one side and the other less than .05mm now?

Did you measure W/O the shims first, as in the manual?

Did you use straps on both sides of the sleeves this time? Hand tight?

Cylinder to cylinder < .04mm difference, in steps?

[Parzival]

That could explain why one side was too low...Is the difference in one side and the other less than .05mm now?
They seem to be the same side to side. They all seem to be right between .18mm and .20mm but again, feeler gages. Hope the heads clamp down on these real good.


Did you measure w/o the shims first, as in the manual?
I did with one of them, again doing this with the pistons in the liners is tough, and with the feeler gauges.


Did you use straps on both sides of the sleeves this time? Hand tight?
Yes I used the liner locks I made.



Cylinder to cylinder <.04mm difference in steps?
I laid a straight edge across the liners, and tried to pass the .04 feeler gage under it and could not. So, I hope so. doing this with the pistons in place, I don't think I can interchange the liners. each has to go back to it's original location. Or I'd have to remove pistons from the liners, and re bore them and do all new piston rings. luckily there dose not seem to be much variation between them.

[Ron]

Missed an edit...
I don't see how you could get the flush one up to .18mm when the largest shim is .165mm.

[Parzival]

Missed an edit...
I don't see how you could get the flush one up to .18mm when the largest shim is .165mm.

I think it was leaning outward the night before when I did that check, because it was real high on one side, and low or flush on the other, I dont think it was actually flush but rather the straight edge was hitting the edge of the block from the top of the liner being diagonal to the block.

at this point I can go do more testing, its not going back together for at least a week. I could not find one of those tools for measuring protrusion anywhere. Id have to buy it, and then never need it again, but I guess its an option.

[Ron]

Something like this should do the trick:
https://www.amazon.com/Aickar-Stainless-Electronic-Calipers-Accurate/dp/B01M06ZT2T?SubscriptionId=AKIAIOCEBIGP6NUBL47A&tag=thearcsgui07-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B01M06ZT2T

You can use it for a lot of other things.

[Parzival]

Something like this should do the trick:
https://www.amazon.com/Aickar-Stainless-Electronic-Calipers-Accurate/dp/B01M06ZT2T?SubscriptionId=AKIAIOCEBIGP6NUBL47A&tag=thearcsgui07-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B01M06ZT2T

You can use it for a lot of other things.

I have one of those, Interesting I didn't think to use it for this.

[Ron]

:) ...been there, have several t-shirts.

[David T]

If you are doing this kind of work you MUST have some accurate measuring tools. A micrometer and a large vernier caliper at a minimum along with a set of feeler gauges and a straightedge. The liners can be moved but you should move the pistons too. That means taking the pistons off the con rods. That means special tools. Something is very wrong if you get such a large difference in measurement side-to-side on one liner.

[Parzival]

If you are doing this kind of work you MUST have some accurate measuring tools. A micrometer and a large vernier caliper at a minimum along with a set of feeler gauges and a straightedge. The liners can be moved but you should move the pistons too. That means taking the pistons off the con rods. That means special tools. Something is very wrong if you get such a large difference in measurement side-to-side on one liner.

Something was wrong, the liner was leaning over toward the outside (away from the valley) of the engine. Making it high on the valley side, and low on the other. I took it back out and discarded that paper shim, and put it back toghether more carefully with a new one. This design just seems so... flimsy? Like how are these little paper rings supposed to seal the water jacket up!? I'm so nervous I'm almost crippled in anxiety over moving forward. I guess I'll just keep measuring, but I know I'm getting at least .16 of protrusion above the block, the .18 feeler gage fits under the straight edge . It says the minimum is .16 so I should be safe right? as in the clamping force should be great on the liners, and there is some room for error in that the paper will crush down, and so will the fire rings in the head gaskets....
Man this stuff can really keep you up at night.

[Jason]

When I rebuilt my engine, the advice I got from DPI was...




I notice you only sent yellow liner seals, so I assume I'm supposed to just use those instead of measuring the liner protrusion. Do I still still need to step the protrusion differences from cylinder to cylinder as described in the service manual or can I skip measuring all together?

-no need to measure. Just install the yellow seals on all cylinders. Follow the guidelines in the manual for tab orientation on the seals.


Though this was with new liners from DPI. I don't know if that makes any difference.

[Delorean Industries]

Factory yellow tab liner shims are .005. The ones we manufactured previously before switching to metal only were .0075. Allowing for diy owners to hit the nominal protrusion on the high side in an at home environment.

Please note this post is in standard American tolerances and the thread to this point is in mm.

[Parzival]

When I rebuilt my engine, the advice I got from DPI was...



Though this was with new liners from DPI. I don't know if that makes any difference.

This is very similar to the advice I got from Mike at DMC midwest, I followed this advice, and then decided to measure and got my self worked up. I have protrusion from the block and the head gasket will provide some give so it seems it would be ok...

I'm guessing your rebuild went ok? No issues?
SOMEBODY JUST HOLD ME AND TELL ME EVERYTHING IS GOING TO BE ALL RIGHT!!!

[Parzival]

Factory yellow tab liner shims are .005. The ones we manufactured previously before switching to metal only were .0075. Allowing for diy owners to hit the nominal protrusion on the high side in an at home environment.

Please note this post is in standard American tolerances and the thread to this point is in mm.

correct me if I'm wrong, In order from me to use your metal ones, I'd have to measure the protrusion with the metal shim in place, and then have the liners machined to the correct hight?
Should I stick with the yellow liner shim, or keep trying to get it dead on?

[Delorean Industries]

Just reviewed this thread and have a number of things to give input on. Please shoot over an email through our website contact page and I'll walk you through a few things to make this painless in the am with instructions.

[Parzival]

Just reviewed this thread and have a number of things to give input on. Please shoot over an email through our website contact page and I'll walk you through a few things to make this painless in the am with instructions.

Awesome, I went a head and sent tat over to you via your website!
Looking forward to hearing our input! Thank you!

[David T]

The best advice is to follow the procedure in the manual as closely as you can. Anything else could get you into trouble. Not only must you get the protrusion right, it must be right to the others on that bank. That protrusion is for the correct clamping force of the heads so the liners won't move, will seal and the coefficient of expansion is OK between the aluminum block and the steel liners. This is a big deal and close enough is not good enough. You should be measuring each part, liner, shim, and adding it all up. If you can't accurately measure nip this isn't going to work. The fact that you got it wrong indicates you need to improve your technique. If you are having too much trouble doing this with the engine in the car then maybe you should pull it. Maybe try the liner locks but don't tighten them tight, just snug enough to hold the liners in place. Problem with the liner locks is they get in the way of taking the measurements. The shims (liner base seals) are not exactly paper. The manual calls them "Excelnyl" which is probably paper treated with some kind of proprietary sealer. Once they get heated up they can't be reused. Setting liner protrusion is probably the most important step in doing the liners and heads. If, when you took it apart, you measured the shims then you would have had a good starting point at reassembly.

[Parzival]

The best advice is to follow the procedure in the manual as closely as you can. Anything else could get you into trouble. Not only must you get the protrusion right, it must be right to the others on that bank. That protrusion is for the correct clamping force of the heads so the liners won't move, will seal and the coefficient of expansion is OK between the aluminum block and the steel liners. This is a big deal and close enough is not good enough. You should be measuring each part, liner, shim, and adding it all up. If you can't accurately measure nip this isn't going to work. The fact that you got it wrong indicates you need to improve your technique. If you are having too much trouble doing this with the engine in the car then maybe you should pull it. Maybe try the liner locks but don't tighten them tight, just snug enough to hold the liners in place. Problem with the liner locks is they get in the way of taking the measurements. The shims (liner base seals) are not exactly paper. The manual calls them "Excelnyl" which is probably paper treated with some kind of proprietary sealer. Once they get heated up they can't be reused. Setting liner protrusion is probably the most important step in doing the liners and heads. If, when you took it apart, you measured the shims then you would have had a good starting point at reassembly.

Well I don't know its wrong (i've re done it sice the one was leaning over), like I said, the protrusion now is all looking like .018mm. which is within spec. These measurements were done with a straight edge and feeler gages.
Ive heard the advice a lot from people, to just use the largest size shim and skip the measuring. Well I started with that, but now am getting nervous. I want it to work and work well, so I'm sweating the details now. I've have the shop completely re building my heads, new valve guides, new freeze plugs, making sure they are perfect.

[Parzival]

So, I'll be continuing to try and get this right, it is however tough when I'm being pulled in multiple directions. Everyone has a different opinion on this stuff.
One vender says to just use the largest shim size and not worry about the measuring part (this one is shared by quite a few)

Some are of the approach that everything has to be measured down to the micron, and any deviation will result in a failure. I like measuring, and making this perfect, but to what extent.

Then there is what parts to use, I bought some head bolts from DeloreanGO and I've heard from a few people that they are wrong, and will cause the head gaskets to fail.

I'm very happy to have ALL the input, and I know that everyone is giving me their honest opinions on how to do this correctly. I just wish there was more consensus.

On one hand I know people are out there doing this with the largest shims size and skipping the measuring part, and on the other hand I know people are out there taking the precision approach. I didn't realize that opinions on this differed differed so wildly.

I'm beginning to think that taking this apart was a mistake, but what was my alternative? It has to be done.

[Ron]

$.01

If you get close to the same measurements with the digital mic as you did with the feelers, I.E., Barely within tolerances, you'll have the dealers Et. al. and the measurements saying to use the largest...

Do it!

...But don't blame me.

P.S. To eases your mind, consider that the seals only have to hold off ~1/10 of the pressure the head gaskets do, before the explosion... :deviltail:

[Parzival]

ok, so got a dial gage, and here are the results.

Cylinders
1 valley side: .007 Outside .007
2 valley side: .007 Outside .0065
3 valley side: .007 Outside .007
4 valley side: .007 Outside .007
5 valley side: .008 Outside .008
6 valley side: .007 Outside .007
61672
compatible results to the feeler gages

[Bitsyncmaster]

Thanks. Right the IAC does not seal shut. But mine is sticking too far open in closed loop, I would think the difference in how far it closes at 1500 and 750 Rpm is not a lot. When I tap on it it does close a little further and drops the rpm to about a 1100.
Idle does not hunt or surge. FV duty cycle percentage is way high in closed Loop which tells me the Lambda system is working, just need less air to bring that down. I will post the fix. But so far Fuel Pressure is good Timing is right No external vac leaks.
It does rev good so mixture is close but not right yet WOT switch works. coming up on days off again so should get another look at it soon.

+1

Another problem is when your deceleration valves are bad. That extra vacuum leak makes the Idle motor run to it's minimum opening. The idle motor has very little torque at the extreme ends and any sticking will most likely happen then. When I designed my idle ECU I noted the best torque at the center value (FV duty cycle at 50%). What I did to get a little better was to reduce the frequency of the motor control from 100 Hz. to 66 Hz.

[Parzival]

ok, so got a dial gage, and here are the results.

Cylinders
1 valley side: .007 Outside .007
2 valley side: .007 Outside .0065
3 valley side: .007 Outside .007
4 valley side: .007 Outside .007
5 valley side: .008 Outside .008
6 valley side: .007 Outside .007
61672
compatible results to the feeler gages

Ok so, any input on these measurements?
They seem to be with in spec, but cylinder 5 is a bit higher then the ones on ether side of it. Should I put the next size shim in that spot, or move that liner to ether 4 or 6. Can I even do that since I'm keeping the rods and pistons in the liners, meaning I'd have to swap the whole assembly with one of its neighbors. The book says then need to be within .001 of each other which I appear to be. Since they are so close should I leave the shims dry or rub some hylomar on them? so many questions!!!

[dmc4087]

Following this thread as I'm in the same boat - regarding the liners, DMCMW Dave said they go on dry so you can rule out hylomar. One less question :)

Ref:
http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?6638-Piston-sleeve-moved/page3

[Delorean Industries]

The paper shims do need to be dressed in Hylomar AF. Anyone that tells you otherwise doesn't know what they are doing.

[dmc4087]

OP, add that question back on to the list :p

[Parzival]

OP, add that question back on to the list :p

Ok well, I know hylomar is good stuff, I don’t think it won’t hurt to add it, Belt and suspenders I guess.


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[Parzival]

Ok well, I know hylomar is good stuff, I don’t think it won’t hurt to add it, Belt and suspenders I guess.


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I meant I dont think it will hurt to add it, I guess I'll dress them gaskets up and put it back toghether. Liner measurements seem to be in spec.

[David T]

If you use an ordinary paper or metal shim you should use some kind of sealer. The type of shim the manual says to use would not need any additional sealer. Not sure what the availability is of those shims anymore. Important to use a sealer meant for this application if you do use a sealer. Lotus had a big problem with liner seal sealer in their early V-8's and it resulted in a recall. The sealer must remain somewhat flexible. If it hardens it cracks. Even though the liner is locked in place by the step in the block and the clamping pressure of the heads, it still moves slightly. The sealer must be flexible to accommodate that movement and the thermal variations along with the different expansion and contraction rates of the steel liners and the aluminum block. Some sealer require a primer. Some have very specific times that it can be assembled in before it dries out. Important details. In all cases all of the sealing surfaces must be scrupulously clean.

[Parzival]

If you use an ordinary paper or metal shim you should use some kind of sealer. The type of shim the manual says to use would not need any additional sealer. Not sure what the availability is of those shims anymore. Important to use a sealer meant for this application if you do use a sealer. Lotus had a big problem with liner seal sealer in their early V-8's and it resulted in a recall. The sealer must remain somewhat flexible. If it hardens it cracks. Even though the liner is locked in place by the step in the block and the clamping pressure of the heads, it still moves slightly. The sealer must be flexible to accommodate that movement and the thermal variations along with the different expansion and contraction rates of the steel liners and the aluminum block. Some sealer require a primer. Some have very specific times that it can be assembled in before it dries out. Important details. In all cases all of the sealing surfaces must be scrupulously clean.

Ok, I will use the hylamar AF. Non hardening, and will remain soft and flexible in the mean time before the heads go back on.
Whats your opinion on moving a liner and piston from one position to another? I can make them step from highest (most protrusion) to shortest (least protrusion) or are mine close enough since they are all within .001 of each other?

[Giamanut]

If you use an ordinary paper or metal shim you should use some kind of sealer. The type of shim the manual says to use would not need any additional sealer. Not sure what the availability is of those shims anymore. Important to use a sealer meant for this application if you do use a sealer. Lotus had a big problem with liner seal sealer in their early V-8's and it resulted in a recall. The sealer must remain somewhat flexible. If it hardens it cracks. Even though the liner is locked in place by the step in the block and the clamping pressure of the heads, it still moves slightly. The sealer must be flexible to accommodate that movement and the thermal variations along with the different expansion and contraction rates of the steel liners and the aluminum block. Some sealer require a primer. Some have very specific times that it can be assembled in before it dries out. Important details. In all cases all of the sealing surfaces must be scrupulously clean.

So Dave that is a great description thermal expansion alone would mandate somewhat flexible seals, and if anyone has seen real slow motion video of an old school engine block while running the deformation of the block is awe inspiring.
I do wonder if it would be possible to pull a liner out and with the right ring compressor install it back over the Piston. Not a suggestion just a thought, from what I have seen it might be theoretically possible to change seals without dropping the Oil pan.

[Parzival]

So Dave that is a great description thermal expansion alone would mandate somewhat flexible seals, and if anyone has seen real slow motion video of an old school engine block while running the deformation of the block is awe inspiring.
I do wonder if it would be possible to pull a liner out and with the right ring compressor install it back over the Piston. Not a suggestion just a thought, from what I have seen it might be theoretically possible to change seals without dropping the Oil pan.

THAT would be hard! I think it would be easier to drop that pan, its not hard to do, and most of these cars need new engine mounts anyway.

[Giamanut]

THAT would be hard! I think it would be easier to drop that pan, its not hard to do, and most of these cars need new engine mounts anyway.

Yes it would be easier to drop the pan, no real reason to do it any other way, just wonder if its possible. But then again i am a little off the wall.

[Giamanut]

THAT would be hard! I think it would be easier to drop that pan, its not hard to do, and most of these cars need new engine mounts anyway.

As a side note aircraft engine cylinders are installed over the piston they also have cylinder base seals so yeah it would not be unprecedented, at all really. In fact aviation ring compressor tools are designed for tight spaces. Again not a suggestion just a thought!

[Ron]

OT moved here: http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?17857-***SPLIT-from-Engine-Liner-Seals***

[David T]

Aircraft engines are a whole different type of engine. For example they are air cooled. The cylinders are designed so they can be changed without taking the con rod off the crank. Not feasible for the PRV. Good idea though.

[Parzival]

Aircraft engines are a whole different type of engine. For example they are air cooled. The cylinders are designed so they can be changed without taking the con rod off the crank. Not feasible for the PRV. Good idea though.

Right, keeping this coolant where it belongs is the name of the game.

[Giamanut]

Aircraft engines are a whole different type of engine. For example they are air cooled. The cylinders are designed so they can be changed without taking the con rod off the crank. Not feasible for the PRV. Good idea though.

Agreed! Not feasible for the PRV. Too much cleaning and on and off measuring and piston re-positioning Be a challenge for sure. And likely not very sanitary.

[Parzival]

Ok, update time!
DMC-81 (aka Dana) and I have completed a ton of the work.
First I removed the liners and pistons again and applied hylamar af to the gaskets.
62294
Re seated them, checked protrusion, and dry fit the reinz head gaskets.
62295
Then started on the heads.
62296
62297
And on they go
62298
Dana and I were taking our time with the timing.
And then we able to move on the the timing cover, and had to call it a day at that point.
62299
Still some reassembly left to go from here.

[Parzival]

Ok, update time!
DMC-81 (aka Dana) and I have completed a ton of the work.
First I removed the liners and pistons again and applied hylamar af to the gaskets.
62294
Re seated them, checked protrusion, and dry fit the reinz head gaskets.
62295
Then started on the heads.
62296
62297
And on they go
62298
Dana and I were taking our time with the timing.
And then we able to move on the the timing cover, and had to call it a day at that point.
62299
Still some reassembly left to go from here.


Jump over to this thread for the exciting conclusion!
http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?17980-Come-so-far-to-find-this!