3.0 EFI Swap with MS3 Pro

[81dmc]

So, because life got in the way and my local machinist succumbed to lung cancer (RIP), I won't be able to do the VR6 swap I've been wanting to do, and instead I'll be selling the 997 tiptronic and VR6.:mecry:

To stay simple, I'm going to reseal the original automatic and install a 3.0 EFI setup. I already have an MS3 Pro Evo with harness. Anybody got base values for the 3.0 tables?

Should I go with EDIS? If so, who can weld a 36-1 ring to the crank pulley?

Injectors? EV-1? 19lbs or 24lbs?

MAF or MAFless?

Any other pointers?

[powerline84]

Josh can probably weld up one for you . Reach out to him

https://www.facebook.com/schattenkirk

Also luke fabombjoy is a damn savant at EFI . He will probably chime in at some point.

[81dmc]

Jesus, that was quick...


We need a like or thanks button on this forum...

[Josh]

With the 3.0 being even fire and already setup for MPFI it is very straight forward to get setup with MS.

While EDIS and batch fuelling is the easiest way to get things up and running, it is severely underutilising an MS3. All this could be done with a Microsquirt or MS2.

With the MS3 you could run full sequential fuel and spark, but in addition to a crank trigger, you would need a cam trigger. I have never seen this done but the 3.0 distributor housing could be repurposed for one.

I guess it depends on what you want. In my opinion for a otherwise stock naturally aspirated PRV EDIS and batch fueling is fine.

Please check out Joe's website he has documented the 3.0 swap very well. He is using some parts from my old setup. Anyone considering a 3.0 swap should read through this blog.

http://www.tmproductions.com/repairs-and-maintenance

[81dmc]

While EDIS and batch fuelling is the easiest way to get things up and running, it is severely underutilising an MS3. All this could be done with a Microsquirt or MS2.

With the MS3 you could run full sequential fuel and spark, but in addition to a crank trigger, you would need a cam trigger. I have never seen this done but the 3.0 distributor housing could be repurposed for one.

I guess it depends on what you want. In my opinion for a otherwise stock naturally aspirated PRV EDIS and batch fueling is fine.

Please check out Joe's website he has documented the 3.0 swap very well. He is using some parts from my old setup. Anyone considering a 3.0 swap should read through this blog.

http://www.tmproductions.com/repairs-and-maintenance
If I can get a cam sensor, I will do it. I won't know until I pick up an engine. I mean, the only reason I have the ms3 is because it was going to be used with a vr6. Worse comes to worse, I could always just utilize the MS3 for batch fueling, but with wiring set up for full sequential.

Already checked out Joe's site. Very informative!

Also, do you still offer that crank trigger wheel setup? I would need that in either case...

[Josh]

If I can get a cam sensor, I will do it. I won't know until I pick up an engine. I mean, the only reason I have the ms3 is because it was going to be used with a vr6. Worse comes to worse, I could always just utilize the MS3 for batch fueling, but with wiring set up for full sequential.

Already checked out Joe's site. Very informative!

Also, do you still offer that crank trigger wheel setup? I would need that in either case...

Yes If you send me your crank pulley I can weld on a trigger wheel (36-1) and provide a mount for the VR sensor. This setup works for both EDIS or sequential. $150. PM me if you are interested.

[81dmc]

I sent a PM...

[Timeless]

There are machine shops in Ft. Myers or even my fabricator at work my be able to assist. E-mail me if interested.

[81dmc]

Thanks, but only thing I need done is the crank trigger wheel.

Looks like Josh may be a little busy?

So where is the best place to mount the VR sensor? I can always find a ring and have somewhat tack it on.

[powerline84]

Diyautotune.com is your friend

[jangell]

I bought a lot of Josh's old parts from him when he upgraded to the LS engine, including his missing tooth wheel already welded to the pulley and a crank sensor bracket. You can probably fabricate the sensor bracket yourself with some steel or aluminum stock, a vice, an angle grinder or metal saw, and a drill or drill press; it just won't be as pretty as the machined one Josh made, but would probably be what I'd have done if I didn't have his parts. Here's a picture of mine installed. https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/510dbdc1e4b037c811a42c5a/1454189065444-GX54N3TYDT5OLRN6FCL5/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kOEBFSgmxy9LRmIE3CBmo3V7gQa3H7 8H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLf rh8O1z4YTzHvnKhyp6Da-NYroOW3ZGjoBKy3azqku80C789l0kMlYkjvFlctRdmAM11rxFS KMMPkg9wYHAniNqmBnc09FB5QxGiyDGaxlysK_RR2CQ/IMG_1346.jpg?format=1000w

And here's a picture of just the bracket and sensor that I got from Josh: https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/510dbdc1e4b037c811a42c5a/1444621189008-0FAOEYJVCQOXLT2NUSWR/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kEUK_TYgJXGJtm1zdxH1W3V7gQa3H7 8H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLf rh8O1z4YTzHvnKhyp6Da-NYroOW3ZGjoBKy3azqku80C789l0psyQQR5KrxgIm8QcotvsYu 28HoY2lkC5ISBzIcEXLapPVJ3ujQn-9AKEJd804SDnA/image-asset.jpeg?format=2500w

-- Joe

[81dmc]

I bought a lot of Josh's old parts from him when he upgraded to the LS engine, including his missing tooth wheel already welded to the pulley and a crank sensor bracket. You can probably fabricate the sensor bracket yourself with some steel or aluminum stock, a vice, an angle grinder or metal saw, and a drill or drill press; it just won't be as pretty as the machined one Josh made, but would probably be what I'd have done if I didn't have his parts. Here's a picture of mine installed. https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/510dbdc1e4b037c811a42c5a/1454189065444-GX54N3TYDT5OLRN6FCL5/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kOEBFSgmxy9LRmIE3CBmo3V7gQa3H7 8H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLf rh8O1z4YTzHvnKhyp6Da-NYroOW3ZGjoBKy3azqku80C789l0kMlYkjvFlctRdmAM11rxFS KMMPkg9wYHAniNqmBnc09FB5QxGiyDGaxlysK_RR2CQ/IMG_1346.jpg?format=1000w

And here's a picture of just the bracket and sensor that I got from Josh: https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/510dbdc1e4b037c811a42c5a/1444621189008-0FAOEYJVCQOXLT2NUSWR/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kEUK_TYgJXGJtm1zdxH1W3V7gQa3H7 8H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLf rh8O1z4YTzHvnKhyp6Da-NYroOW3ZGjoBKy3azqku80C789l0psyQQR5KrxgIm8QcotvsYu 28HoY2lkC5ISBzIcEXLapPVJ3ujQn-9AKEJd804SDnA/image-asset.jpeg?format=2500w

-- Joe

Thanks for that.

I’d rather pay Josh to do it since he has done this a few times before, but it seems as if he disappeared?

I have more than a few months to go with this swap, so I have time to figure it out.

[MrChocky]

Thanks for that.

I’d rather pay Josh to do it since he has done this a few times before, but it seems as if he disappeared?

I have more than a few months to go with this swap, so I have time to figure it out.Been really slow to respond recently. I imagine he's super busy. Good and bad for us.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[81dmc]

I have a question for all that have experience with efi.

Should I just sell the MS3 Pro and purchase a simple Microsquirt box set up with bank injection and EDIS wasted spark? I could use the cash for other things on the car...

[dmcman73]

I have a question for all that have experience with efi.

Should I just sell the MS3 Pro and purchase a simple Microsquirt box set up with bank injection and EDIS wasted spark? I could use the cash for other things on the car...

I am planning on doing the same engine swap in my car within the next year, what route did you go in regarding the Megasquirt / Microsquirt model?

[81dmc]

Haven’t gotten there yet. Still waiting on new liners from the UK.

Once the engine is built and installed, I’ll do some decision making in the controls. I am heavily leaning towards Microsquirt for simplicity though.

[dmcman73]

Haven’t gotten there yet. Still waiting on new liners from the UK.

Once the engine is built and installed, I’ll do some decision making in the controls. I am heavily leaning towards Microsquirt for simplicity though.

I'm actually leaning towards the Microsquirt as well. I'm not looking to do anything fancy with the setup, just simply control Fuel and Spark, cooling fans and to be able to reliably control the A/C kick up/down when it's being used.

[Josh]

I'm actually leaning towards the Microsquirt as well. I'm not looking to do anything fancy with the setup, just simply control Fuel and Spark, cooling fans and to be able to reliably control the A/C kick up/down when it's being used.

This is all possible with Micro squirt. With some careful configuration you can even run a 4 wire IAC in conjunction with fan and ac control.
If you control spark as well you will need to disable the mechanical advance in the distributor. You should be able to get an rpm signal off of the distributor but the best bet would be making a crank position sensor setup. Pulling a rpm signal off of the distributor is not very clean and it is "second hand" information as its through a timing chain.

My simply doing a fuel only implementation you can leave the stock ignition setup as is but still do away with the problematic k-jet.

[dmcman73]

This is all possible with Micro squirt. With some careful configuration you can even run a 4 wire IAC in conjunction with fan and ac control.
If you control spark as well you will need to disable the mechanical advance in the distributor. You should be able to get an rpm signal off of the distributor but the best bet would be making a crank position sensor setup. Pulling a rpm signal off of the distributor is not very clean and it is "second hand" information as its through a timing chain.

My simply doing a fuel only implementation you can leave the stock ignition setup as is but still do away with the problematic k-jet.

I'm actually going to be doing this for an Eagle Premier 3.0 engine. I just purchased a low mileage engine and waiting for it to come in. Can I still use the stock ignition or do I need to setup the Microsquirt with an EDIS6?

[81dmc]

I'm actually going to be doing this for an Eagle Premier 3.0 engine. I just purchased a low mileage engine and waiting for it to come in. Can I still use the stock ignition or do I need to setup the Microsquirt with an EDIS6?

You will need EDIS6.

2.8 PRV is odd fire with traditional distributor. 3.0 PRV is even fire without traditional distributor.

[jangell]

You will need EDIS6.

2.8 PRV is odd fire with traditional distributor. 3.0 PRV is even fire without traditional distributor.

If you get a 1989 Eagle Premier engine, you might get one with a distributor. At least the one I got had one, which I then removed in favor of EDIS6. Admittedly, I have no idea how that distributor setup worked, if it was purely mechanical or if it had an ECU like the 2.8L DeLorean does, in which case it doesn't really matter and you'll need EDIS6 anyway. I got the impression that later 3.0L engines did not have a distributor, but I may simply be half-remembering some wrong information.

That said, EDIS6 is pretty easy to get working (in retrospect, anyway), so I'd go with that, but I also understand wanting to do the conversion one step at a time.

-- Joe

[81dmc]

If you get a 1989 Eagle Premier engine, you might get one with a distributor. At least the one I got had one, which I then removed in favor of EDIS6. Admittedly, I have no idea how that distributor setup worked, if it was purely mechanical or if it had an ECU like the 2.8L DeLorean does, in which case it doesn't really matter and you'll need EDIS6 anyway. I got the impression that later 3.0L engines did not have a distributor, but I may simply be half-remembering some wrong information.

That said, EDIS6 is pretty easy to get working (in retrospect, anyway), so I'd go with that, but I also understand wanting to do the conversion one step at a time.

-- Joe

I got an early engine. That distributor is a “dumb” distributor with no advance. It relies on factory eagle ecu which is not worth anyone’s time.

Now you could retrofit a traditional distributor to that port like Bill did on dmctoday, but that’s too much redneck for me lol.

[jangell]

I got an early engine. That distributor is a “dumb” distributor with no advance. It relies on factory eagle ecu which is not worth anyone’s time.

Now you could retrofit a traditional distributor to that port like Bill did on dmctoday, but that’s too much redneck for me lol.

Ah, thanks for clarifying that. I didn't notice the lack of advance when I removed mine, since it was just another part that had to come off. I'm good with EDIS6. :)

-- Joe

[dmcman73]

This is the actual engine, looks like it's without the distributor 63918

It's coming out of a 1988 Eagle Premier.

[Josh]

As said, no year of 3.0 has a useful distributor, even if it has one bolted to the timing cover. so just get one with low miles and good compression.
You will need to use EDIS.

You cannot use EDIS with a 2.8 as its oddfire.

[81dmc]

63919

Circled in red is the useless dumb distributor. You’ll need to cap that hole.



Looks like a nice engine unlike the one I bought. Mine looked like it was on a shelf since the 90s. Pitted liners, stuck lifters, etc. It is a nightmare.


By time it comes together, I’ll need to find a solution for the crank sensor...