Megasquirt question for Eagle 3.0 conversion

[dmcman73]

Hi all,

I found a 3.0 engine that I am waiting for delivery on and I had a question that I could not find on the forums. I see that most of the Eagle 3.0 engine swaps are using the MS2 3.57, is there any reason not to use the MS2 3.0? The only differences I found is that the 3.57 is surface mount for easier mass production and the 3.0 is through hole components. I can save some money purchasing the MS2 3.0 kit and assemble it myself if it will work out for the engine swap.

Also, there are two MS2 3.0 kits, one has the MapDaddy4 upgrade. I don't believe that this is needed for the Eagle 3.0 engine swap, but, I just wanted to verify.

Thank you!

[FABombjoy]

Functionally the PCB v3 and v3.57 are basically the same.

You would only need the mapdaddy4 kit if you were planning on 45psi boost. Otherwise you'll just lose resolution in your actual operating range.

You might want to consider Megasquirt 3 vs 2. v3 has nice benefits over 2 and will likely see the lions share of continued development.
If you want to stick with v2, I have an unused v2 aluminum case I can sell you :)

[dmcman73]

Functionally the PCB v3 and v3.57 are basically the same.

You would only need the mapdaddy4 kit if you were planning on 45psi boost. Otherwise you'll just lose resolution in your actual operating range.

You might want to consider Megasquirt 3 vs 2. v3 has nice benefits over 2 and will likely see the lions share of continued development.
If you want to stick with v2, I have an unused v2 aluminum case I can sell you :)

What does the v3 offer over the v2 when using it on the Eagle 3.0 engine?

[FABombjoy]

It's a bit more future proof in terms of upgrades. I like the SD card logging and real USB connection. You can burn changes while driving without a stumble. I use the MS3+X module for radiator fan, AC control, boost control, water injections, and plan to add a radiator fan PWM driver and maybe PWM fuel pump control. Another owner here is running coil-near-plug ignition. The major options are listed on the product page:

https://www.diyautotune.com/product/megasquirt-iii-daughterboard-kit/

If you want an ECU that just runs a base 3.0 engine MS2 is fine.
MS3 would let you skip EDIS. But I don't know if anyone has done MS3/Eagle so you'd be trainblazing just a little.

[dmcman73]

It's a bit more future proof in terms of upgrades. I like the SD card logging and real USB connection. You can burn changes while driving without a stumble. I use the MS3+X module for radiator fan, AC control, boost control, water injections, and plan to add a radiator fan PWM driver and maybe PWM fuel pump control. Another owner here is running coil-near-plug ignition. The major options are listed on the product page:

https://www.diyautotune.com/product/megasquirt-iii-daughterboard-kit/

If you want an ECU that just runs a base 3.0 engine MS2 is fine.
MS3 would let you skip EDIS. But I don't know if anyone has done MS3/Eagle so you'd be trainblazing just a little.

Thanks! I am still in the planning and designing stages as of now so I haven't decided on which one to start with. But this was all very helpful!

[Josh]

It's a bit more future proof in terms of upgrades. I like the SD card logging and real USB connection. You can burn changes while driving without a stumble. I use the MS3+X module for radiator fan, AC control, boost control, water injections, and plan to add a radiator fan PWM driver and maybe PWM fuel pump control. Another owner here is running coil-near-plug ignition. The major options are listed on the product page:

https://www.diyautotune.com/product/megasquirt-iii-daughterboard-kit/

If you want an ECU that just runs a base 3.0 engine MS2 is fine.
MS3 would let you skip EDIS. But I don't know if anyone has done MS3/Eagle so you'd be trainblazing just a little.

Luke and his pro-MS3 propaganda at it again!

[FABombjoy]

I like the future proofing. MS2 & Microsquirt work great if you want management + a few extra features. If an owner is a tech junky that wants the opportunity to implement some fancier things, MS3 is the way to go.

I also don't like EDIS. "Here's your new & currently supported EFI & ignition management solution. All it needs to work is an obsolete junkyard-sourced black box"

[Josh]

I like the future proofing. MS2 & Microsquirt work great if you want management + a few extra features. If an owner is a tech junky that wants the opportunity to implement some fancier things, MS3 is the way to go.

I also don't like EDIS. "Here's your new & currently supported EFI & ignition management solution. All it needs to work is an obsolete junkyard-sourced black box"

I always place you on the far right of the bell curve in terms of electrical skill/talent and resultantly the need to tinker with things. So i understand the need for the overhead MS3 offers.

But I view the average megasquirt user (especially in the delorean community) as someone who wants to setup their efi, initially tune it, then have something that just works. For this you dont need anything fancy.

Who is wrong? probably neither of us

[dmcman73]

I always place you on the far right of the bell curve in terms of electrical skill/talent and resultantly the need to tinker with things. So i understand the need for the overhead MS3 offers.

But I view the average megasquirt user (especially in the delorean community) as someone who wants to setup their efi, initially tune it, then have something that just works. For this you dont need anything fancy.

Who is wrong? probably neither of us

I’m an electronic tinkerer as well, but, I just want to install something, get it tuned and forget about it.

[FABombjoy]

I think Josh and I both agree that whatever the solution, it would be nice if the MS2 and derivatives had just a couple more inputs and outputs.

I like MS3 as the software has more options, not necessarily the fully loaded MS3X as it is probably overkill for most.

Really my preference for the MS3 surrounds the hardware/software enabled by the faster CPU. It's new. It's hip. If you want to run AC control, there's a menu. If you want to run fan control, there's a menu. There's actually a lot of menus, for better or for worse, more than MS2.

The versioning system is a bit ambiguous too:
Megasquirt - currently supported
Megasquirt PCB: v3.0. Hobby through-hole component version. Pretty much everybody uses this or a 3.57
Megasquirt PCB: v3.57 is the surface mount version, virtually identical but not offered as a solder-together kit

These are functionally identical. Both have the same clunky 37 pin connector which I think is not a great choice.

CPUs - plug in to either of the above PCBs
Megasquirt v2: 24MHz HCS12 CPU, serial only communication
Megasquirt v3: 50Mhz MC9S12XEP100 CPU, native USB and SD card logging. Needs a bigger box though.
Megasquirt v3 with MS3X: An add-on card for Megasquirt v3 that gives you a TON of inputs/outputs, individual injector drivers, individual coil drivers.

Microsquirt
Functionally similar to MS2, but in a proper enclosure and a real harness connector. Small, weatherproof.

Microsquirt but repurposed as an IO-box?
Getting weird in here isn't it? If you have an MS3 CPU, you can flash a different firmware and connect an MS3 to a Microsquirt module for additional I/O
https://www.msextra.com/product-range/expansion/microsquirt-io-box/
This might be better than the 3X add-on as you can drop it on at any time via the 2 wires of the CAN bus.

MS3-Pro, MSPNP and a whole bunch of OEM and engine specific boxes
MS3X in a proper enclosure with a real harness. Or MS with engine-specific options are for LS motors, certain Fords, basically intended as plug & play ECU replacements.
TBH these dangerously close in price to commercial solutions and probably of limited application in the DeLorean.

[dmcman73]

I think Josh and I both agree that whatever the solution, it would be nice if the MS2 and derivatives had just a couple more inputs and outputs.

I like MS3 as the software has more options, not necessarily the fully loaded MS3X as it is probably overkill for most.

Really my preference for the MS3 surrounds the hardware/software enabled by the faster CPU. It's new. It's hip. If you want to run AC control, there's a menu. If you want to run fan control, there's a menu. There's actually a lot of menus, for better or for worse, more than MS2.

The versioning system is a bit ambiguous too:
Megasquirt - currently supported
Megasquirt PCB: v3.0. Hobby through-hole component version. Pretty much everybody uses this or a 3.57
Megasquirt PCB: v3.57 is the surface mount version, virtually identical but not offered as a solder-together kit

These are functionally identical. Both have the same clunky 37 pin connector which I think is not a great choice.

CPUs - plug in to either of the above PCBs
Megasquirt v2: 24MHz HCS12 CPU, serial only communication
Megasquirt v3: 50Mhz MC9S12XEP100 CPU, native USB and SD card logging. Needs a bigger box though.
Megasquirt v3 with MS3X: An add-on card for Megasquirt v3 that gives you a TON of inputs/outputs, individual injector drivers, individual coil drivers.

Microsquirt
Functionally similar to MS2, but in a proper enclosure and a real harness connector. Small, weatherproof.

Microsquirt but repurposed as an IO-box?
Getting weird in here isn't it? If you have an MS3 CPU, you can flash a different firmware and connect an MS3 to a Microsquirt module for additional I/O
https://www.msextra.com/product-range/expansion/microsquirt-io-box/
This might be better than the 3X add-on as you can drop it on at any time via the 2 wires of the CAN bus.

MS3-Pro, MSPNP and a whole bunch of OEM and engine specific boxes
MS3X in a proper enclosure with a real harness. Or MS with engine-specific options are for LS motors, certain Fords, basically intended as plug & play ECU replacements.
TBH these dangerously close in price to commercial solutions and probably of limited application in the DeLorean.

Some good info here, thanks!

I already knew about the 3.0 and the 3.57 board differences (through hole VS SMD); through hole components are easier for most to assemble. I wish they offered the SMD in kit form as I have all the tools to assemble SMD boards. This is my first steps into working on a custom EFI system, I am still planning and designing it. I bought the EFI book most recommend on other EFI boards to read up on to properly design and tune an EFI system.

So is it not possible to create a kick up for the A/C or control the cooling fans using an MS2 or Squirt? I thought I read somewhere that another D owner hooked up some leads to the compressor circuit where it would signal the MS2 when the compressor was coming on to compensate the engine for the extra load, am I wrong?

EDIT: Found the A/C mod: http://www.tmproductions.com/repairs-and-maintenance-blog/2019/8/30/megasquirt-ac-idle-up-modification. Looks like some jumper wires are needed on the MS2 board. I assume that the MS3 already has a dedicated port for the A/C and Fan control already? I would assume that the MS3 would already have this mod in place since the "proto" area is no longer there to accommodate some extra mods that were included into it.

[FABombjoy]

A lot of those things you can do in MS2 but through the use of the programmable outputs versus dedicated menus. It works but is a bit less featurefull:

Fan control in MS2:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachments/megasquirt-18/47445d1340655890-ms2-fan-control-pao.jpg

Fan control in MS3:
https://imgur.com/KfaEzcR

PWM fan control is MS3 exclusive


Aircon control in MS3. In this case more than just an idle-up, but MS3 can selectively activate and deactivate the compressor based on multiple conditions.
https://imgur.com/8Q9QO0V

I cut the compressor wire behind the bulkhead connections and placed a relay in-line. Two wires to Megasquirt enabled full control: 12v call for AC, and the return "AC approved" switched ground signal from Megasquirt.

This is from my car, you'll note the output is CANOUT16. I'm actually using the VVT output to trigger the compressor.
I have aircon control tied in to another generic output that is contingent on coolant temp. It's part of a coolant temp fail-safe strategy that shuts down AC and defaults to low boost mode on a potential overheat.
I can't imagine that this sort of decision matrix is possible in MS2.

[dmcman73]

A lot of those things you can do in MS2 but through the use of the programmable outputs versus dedicated menus. It works but is a bit less featurefull:

Fan control in MS2:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachments/megasquirt-18/47445d1340655890-ms2-fan-control-pao.jpg

Fan control in MS3:
https://imgur.com/KfaEzcR

PWM fan control is MS3 exclusive


Aircon control in MS3. In this case more than just an idle-up, but MS3 can selectively activate and deactivate the compressor based on multiple conditions.
https://imgur.com/8Q9QO0V

I cut the compressor wire behind the bulkhead connections and placed a relay in-line. Two wires to Megasquirt enabled full control: 12v call for AC, and the return "AC approved" switched ground signal from Megasquirt.

This is from my car, you'll note the output is CANOUT16. I'm actually using the VVT output to trigger the compressor.
I have aircon control tied in to another generic output that is contingent on coolant temp. It's part of a coolant temp fail-safe strategy that shuts down AC and defaults to low boost mode on a potential overheat.
I can't imagine that this sort of decision matrix is possible in MS2.

OK, looks like I'm now leaning more towards an MS3...lol

Is your engine a stock 2.8 converted to EFI or an Eagle 3.0? If it's the Eagle 3.0, are you using the stock injectors for it or did you go with another one with more #'s?

Thanks for all the info!

[FABombjoy]

Stock 2.8 EFI converted w/ turbo.

If you have the cam-mounted 3.0 distributor then you have a nice opportunity build a cam mounted pickup for full sync. Be easier to go full SFI and even COP/CNP but would require the MS3X.

[dmcman73]

Stock 2.8 EFI converted w/ turbo.

If you have the cam-mounted 3.0 distributor then you have a nice opportunity build a cam mounted pickup for full sync. Be easier to go full SFI and even COP/CNP but would require the MS3X.

It's a "dumb" cam mounted to the timing cover.

[FABombjoy]

The distributor rotor spins at 1/2 crank - you can whittle a half moon tooth & fix a nearby sensor. That would get you full sync and open SFI/COP options if you were interested. More complicated than MS2/EDIS but is possible.

[Josh]

I think Josh and I both agree that whatever the solution, it would be nice if the MS2 and derivatives had just a couple more inputs and outputs.

I like MS3 as the software has more options, not necessarily the fully loaded MS3X as it is probably overkill for most.

Really my preference for the MS3 surrounds the hardware/software enabled by the faster CPU. It's new. It's hip. If you want to run AC control, there's a menu. If you want to run fan control, there's a menu. There's actually a lot of menus, for better or for worse, more than MS2.

The versioning system is a bit ambiguous too:
Megasquirt - currently supported
Megasquirt PCB: v3.0. Hobby through-hole component version. Pretty much everybody uses this or a 3.57
Megasquirt PCB: v3.57 is the surface mount version, virtually identical but not offered as a solder-together kit

These are functionally identical. Both have the same clunky 37 pin connector which I think is not a great choice.

CPUs - plug in to either of the above PCBs
Megasquirt v2: 24MHz HCS12 CPU, serial only communication
Megasquirt v3: 50Mhz MC9S12XEP100 CPU, native USB and SD card logging. Needs a bigger box though.
Megasquirt v3 with MS3X: An add-on card for Megasquirt v3 that gives you a TON of inputs/outputs, individual injector drivers, individual coil drivers.

Microsquirt
Functionally similar to MS2, but in a proper enclosure and a real harness connector. Small, weatherproof.

Microsquirt but repurposed as an IO-box?
Getting weird in here isn't it? If you have an MS3 CPU, you can flash a different firmware and connect an MS3 to a Microsquirt module for additional I/O
https://www.msextra.com/product-range/expansion/microsquirt-io-box/
This might be better than the 3X add-on as you can drop it on at any time via the 2 wires of the CAN bus.

MS3-Pro, MSPNP and a whole bunch of OEM and engine specific boxes
MS3X in a proper enclosure with a real harness. Or MS with engine-specific options are for LS motors, certain Fords, basically intended as plug & play ECU replacements.
TBH these dangerously close in price to commercial solutions and probably of limited application in the DeLorean.

This is perfect.

[dn010]

I am running a B280F, distributor removed with EDIS for ignition and MAF based fuel. Back when I had to make this decision, I opted for the 'latest and greatest' MS3X. I believe part of the decision to get the expansion card was so that I could easily run the three-wire IAC motor. Another part of it is that I want to one day swap to a LS and thought having the 3X would give me more ability to do what I want in the future. I have fan control set up, I have AC idle up set, etc. and it has all been working great. I also have the distributor hole and was previously looking at ways to put a sensor and wheel on the cam for sequential but nothing ever came of it. I admit it would be fun to try out and accomplish but the engine is only a 2.8, running great currently and I lost motivation.

As for the injectors, some of the original ones on the engine were clogged or spraying oddly. After researching a bit, I went with Bosch "pink top" injectors. I believe they are 21.5lb but I would need to look at my book at home to confirm. I did spend a good amount of time measuring CCs at different voltages etc and then putting all that info into tunerstudio.

[Josh]

I am running a B280F, distributor removed with EDIS for ignition and MAF based fuel. Back when I had to make this decision, I opted for the 'latest and greatest' MS3X. I believe part of the decision to get the expansion card was so that I could easily run the three-wire IAC motor. Another part of it is that I want to one day swap to a LS and thought having the 3X would give me more ability to do what I want in the future. I have fan control set up, I have AC idle up set, etc. and it has all been working great. I also have the distributor hole and was previously looking at ways to put a sensor and wheel on the cam for sequential but nothing ever came of it. I admit it would be fun to try out and accomplish but the engine is only a 2.8, running great currently and I lost motivation.

As for the injectors, some of the original ones on the engine were clogged or spraying oddly. After researching a bit, I went with Bosch "pink top" injectors. I believe they are 21.5lb but I would need to look at my book at home to confirm. I did spend a good amount of time measuring CCs at different voltages etc and then putting all that info into tunerstudio.

another example of something a Microsquirt could handle easily.
I am curious about your MAF based system. I am looking to travel down this road but it seems like many do not care to in the megasquirt community. As far as i am concerned and validated with my tuning with the LS platform ecus, MAF is a beautiful thing.
Would you be willing to share your tune so I could see what you did to set it up?

[dn010]

another example of something a Microsquirt could handle easily.
I am curious about your MAF based system. I am looking to travel down this road but it seems like many do not care to in the megasquirt community. As far as i am concerned and validated with my tuning with the LS platform ecus, MAF is a beautiful thing.
Would you be willing to share your tune so I could see what you did to set it up?

As far as I know, I am the only one running a MAF EFI system in a DeLorean. The settings will remain the same for the rest of the tune except you'll run a MAF curve for fueling - all you really need is a good flow curve for the MAF you choose to run and you don't have to screw around trying to figure out a fuel table. From there, you can alter the curve as needed or you can alter the fuel table if you need to tweak some things (you still get a fuel table but it's all 0’s when you use a MAF curve, you can + or – as needed). The rest of the settings are the same regardless of fueling.

For me, going MAF based just sort of happened. I wanted to keep the B280F pretty much as ‘drop in’ as possible meaning I would be using the Bosch MAF it came with. So I traced the wiring and the issues began once I found this particular MAF had a ‘burn off’ feature. I’ll skip the whole explanation on what that is and just admit that I couldn’t figure out a simple way to implement it. The next issue was I could only find a very limited flow curve for that particular sensor and had to pretty much calculate, as best as I could, what the rest of the curve might be. It ran, but it ran poorly. I started looking at sensors and what others in the Megasquirt community, as a whole, were running and ended up with a 6-wire Ford MAF along with a pretty detailed curve. It ran great. I went with the “6 wire” sensor because it also has an IAT built in, like the original Bosch did – one less sensor to worry about installing somewhere.

Because I am still working during these lovely times, it may take me a day or two to send but I will PM you my tune.

Below is a photo of my setup. It is certainly no beautiful LS yet, it is a little dirty and I still really need to do something about the air filter location but at least it is done and reliably going down the road.

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=59983&d=1557344879

[dmcman73]

This is perfect.

@Josh,

When you had your 3.0 engine, did you use a Jeep throttle body attached to the air intake of the 3.0 using a custom adapter plate? Was there a reason you didn't use the throttle body that came with the 3.0? I picked up a Jeep one for like $10 and before I start making a custom adapter plate for it, I wanted to see what the reason was behind it.

Thanks!

[Josh]

@Josh,

When you had your 3.0 engine, did you use a Jeep throttle body attached to the air intake of the 3.0 using a custom adapter plate? Was there a reason you didn't use the throttle body that came with the 3.0? I picked up a Jeep one for like $10 and before I start making a custom adapter plate for it, I wanted to see what the reason was behind it.

Thanks!

I used that one because the Jeep IAC works well with mega squirt and is well outlined in the documentation.

I have some spare adapters and tb cable brackets I can mail you one.

[Josh]

As far as I know, I am the only one running a MAF EFI system in a DeLorean. The settings will remain the same for the rest of the tune except you'll run a MAF curve for fueling - all you really need is a good flow curve for the MAF you choose to run and you don't have to screw around trying to figure out a fuel table. From there, you can alter the curve as needed or you can alter the fuel table if you need to tweak some things (you still get a fuel table but it's all 0’s when you use a MAF curve, you can + or – as needed). The rest of the settings are the same regardless of fueling.

For me, going MAF based just sort of happened. I wanted to keep the B280F pretty much as ‘drop in’ as possible meaning I would be using the Bosch MAF it came with. So I traced the wiring and the issues began once I found this particular MAF had a ‘burn off’ feature. I’ll skip the whole explanation on what that is and just admit that I couldn’t figure out a simple way to implement it. The next issue was I could only find a very limited flow curve for that particular sensor and had to pretty much calculate, as best as I could, what the rest of the curve might be. It ran, but it ran poorly. I started looking at sensors and what others in the Megasquirt community, as a whole, were running and ended up with a 6-wire Ford MAF along with a pretty detailed curve. It ran great. I went with the “6 wire” sensor because it also has an IAT built in, like the original Bosch did – one less sensor to worry about installing somewhere.

Because I am still working during these lovely times, it may take me a day or two to send but I will PM you my tune.

Below is a photo of my setup. It is certainly no beautiful LS yet, it is a little dirty and I still really need to do something about the air filter location but at least it is done and reliably going down the road.

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=59983&d=1557344879

I was poking thru the MAF tables in tunerstudio looks to be very simple compared to all the hoops you need to jump through with the 0411/P01 (gm) ecu. The nice thing about the P01s (and others I assume) is that they blend the VE and MAF tables. It looks like with Megasquirt and tunerstudio it is one or the other. No big deal, but could be better. However I will not argue with the option for MAF as most standalones do not offer this, especially coupled with oddfire support.

I will be using a GM "LS7" card style MAF. They are fairly popular and give a lot of range and mounting options, also includes the IAT.

No worries on the tune, but certainly looking forward to seeing it.

Im looking forward to getting back into megasquirt/tunerstudio. While all tuning is the same concept using hptuners is not so straight forward. Data logging itself is completely different.

[dmcman73]

I used that one because the Jeep IAC works well with mega squirt and is well outlined in the documentation.

I have some spare adapters and tb cable brackets I can mail you one.

That would be great! How much?