Low Oil Pressure

[Azar]

Hello, sorry for the long read but I am seeking advice on the low oil pressure problem - already started discussion in the “tap tap tap” thread but would like to move here since it is off-topic there. http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?4343-tap-tap-tap/page2. The new addition are the manual gauge oil pressure readings and I am hoping they would bring more insights and the motor is not yet due for the complete overhaul….

Brought the car (VIN 05257, 1981, 42k miles, manual) early last year in US and shipped it to Germany. Before shipping, DMC Houston dome some work on the car to remedy immediate issues. The car was not driven for some time and was a non-runner so the fuel system required overhauling (new fuel pump unit, rebuild fuel distributer and warm-up regulator, new fuel lines, 4 year/30k major service performed as well as some other work). It took some time before the car arrived in Germany and I had to sort the documents (import, technical inspection and registration).

Drove just a couple hundred miles end of summer and noticed that after drive (minimum 30 minutes) the oil light was coming up for a short time during the idle. Only at the end of the drive the temperature would go up to 200F when fans kick in and drop it to 170F. Also noticed that the engine takes much longer to reach operating temp – at least 20 minutes (its relatively cool here in the summer, at that day it was +19C) – I am pretty sure the thermostat is stuck open and already got spare (The temp gauge was also once showing 120F driving downhill).

I also noticed the loud tap-tap-tap noise but it turned out to be the valve clearance in the right bank (almost all valves had higher clearance). After adjustment the tap-tap-tap sound gone. Here are the videos before and after the adjustment as well as the photos of the cam lobes. https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipNq4aqgdITWQBkRHiTFGS8fumm2k1XtGHG9CzaVV_zTlS Sb4fXeyN5lb3Nk2iyJpQ?key=TWp0R2tWb2RrQ3hINkxOdklhM 1pDSjZrZmNBRlZn

Judging from the instrument cluster gauge, when starting cold, the oil pressure is around 15-30 psi at idle and 45 psi at 3000 RPM. These numbers slightly improved after swapping the oil to 10W-40. Still, when warm, idle pressure drops to zero and the oil pressure light occasionally would come on. Only 20 psi at 3000 RPM. I am posting the manual gauge readings below.

Sometimes I find a couple of fresh drops of oil under the car after driving. I decided to check the oil and change it from Castrol GTX Conventional 20W-50 to Castrol GTX Ultraclean 10W-40.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200905/28eecdf15f1fc1f882336ffe8d25833a.jpg

The oil film is on the passenger side motor mount and the lower part of generator.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200905/82e0e99f9fa8fa159a2a412ec7e928bb.jpg

The magnet on the oil drain plug had some metal particles collected. All photos and Videos are here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/JrHE4iFQBXt7cx6WA
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200905/4273a8518639f22b8a957b09b6bc3026.jpg

I have cut the filter open but did not find much metal particles there. Most are probably from me cutting the filter with the saw in order to open in.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200915/0f3c9f9c40ada7f71ec4d57161169377.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200915/22db79c9a0226c6ae76a071959461934.jpg

I have sent the oil sample in to the lab to investigate. Dropped in a few metal particles from the magnet in to the sample so it would represent what was in the oil in the engine. Here is the translation from German:
Impurities (particles> 40µ) in the sample are visible to the naked eye. A slightly increased proportion of magnetizable iron particles (mostly> 5µ) can be determined on the basis of the increased PQ index. All other wear values determined are within the permissible or expected values. The fuel content has increased. The cause is unburned fuel in the engine oil, a cold start, short journeys or incorrect fuel entry. The viscosity has decreased due to the entry of fuel.
Here is the report with numbers, spectrum and photos. The oil was fresh from DMC changed in April 2020 (Castrol GTX Conventional 20W-50). https://photos.app.goo.gl/k3rZJHYMhH9zwjdG7

Recently in December I have connected the manual gauge instead of the pressure sensor and here are the readings with links to the videos:
- Cold start in the garage and rolled out of the garage (it is almost freezing outside)
o Idle with 40-55 psi (the idle is @hunting” when cold)
o https://photos.app.goo.gl/95ZJPmotnkDaSVbu8
- 100F engine Temp - Idle at 20-30 psi, still hunting
o https://photos.app.goo.gl/u8x6p9DvRkT96rqD7
- 110-120 F, Idle is stable and oil pressure is 16-18psi pressure
o https://photos.app.goo.gl/bgFc86VTvYJx1VZs9
- 160-170F, idling with 10 psi, about 40-50psi when giving revs (approx. 3000 RPM)
o https://photos.app.goo.gl/wpDsAswohFoG5Qrq5
- 200F, fans turn on, idling with 7-8psi, about 40-50 psi when giving revs
o https://photos.app.goo.gl/iKj2By9Absup6hq77
- fans turn off at 160 F but its same reading as with 200F above
o https://photos.app.goo.gl/qxPafiym2o8SjmkQ9
https://photos.app.goo.gl/96KmvkGGWJq7urk4A

This gives an idea of the gauge in the car showing 10-20 psi less than it in reality is, assuming my manual gauge is correct (discrepancy in larger at higher pressure and smaller at lower pressure, for example idling only 10 psi difference).

Drove it back in to the garage and noticed clunking noise coming from below the engine (driver’s side) like every couple of seconds: https://photos.app.goo.gl/Xm8JnJPo6e76QmFf9 wondering what this could be, probably it was there before but I did no notice it.
I drove the car only 200 miles in summer and the engine runs great, has power and no issues apart from idle hunting. We have tried to adjust the CO to get it pass through the smog check in Germany and we were able to do so (I think it is 3% CO limit for this injection system). But I noticed that there is sometimes black smoke coming from the exhaust when aggressively rising revs from idling.

Many thanks to Ron, David T and Mark W., they have pointed me at the possible reasons for low oil pressure and valves needed being adjusted:
- The wire going to the oil light is known to get burnt up and short to ground where it passes alongside the motor. Can make the light flicker and light up. - Wire is fine, the oil light comes on only when oil pressure is below 8 psi according to the manual gauge
- The wrong oil or not enough - correct oil was used changed it. Using 10W-40 since it is much cooler here. 7 quarts as prescribed.
- A very dirty filter can cause low oil pressure – changed the filter
- internal leak – probably not the case
- Rings - I hope it is not…the engine would burn oil and I would see the white smoke, but it is not the case.
- Oil Pump worn – well might be?
- restricted pickup screen – Hoping for this one!
- components in the lower half are worn (crank/bearings) – I hope it is not…
- Mark w. wrote: that kind of dark gray sludge like grease is ground up metal. time to rebuild. my fear with low oil pressure is that you have an excessively scored/worn oil pump bore.

…and given me some advises in the other thread, some I followed, some are still outstanding:
- Verify oil pressure with an accurate mechanical gauge. – done
- Accurately measure the coolant temp – my bad, did not bring the infrared thermometer. will do next time
- Check the oil pickup screen with the bores-cope – I tried but couldn’t see much or was not sure what to look for… I have the video and can upload if it helps.
- Drop the pan to check the oil pickup screen – in the planning!
- compression test – haven’t done it yet
- leak-down test – of the cylinders? haven’t done yet.
- pull the spark plugs, see if they are oily – not done yet - I have o problems with cold or warm starts, the car starts almost instantly.
- measure valve lift to see if the cams are damaged too – not done yet
- pull the timing cover and the oil pump and inspect that – pump inspection is the must. Can I do that by dropping the pan? Why timing cover?

To sum up, the new manual gauge oil pressure reading are in. The cold start Idle pressure reading 40-55psi is probably not that bad but what about the 7-8 psi idle at operating temperatures and 40-50 psi at higher revs (3000-4000 psi)?
I am really hoping it is a pickup pan. May be oil pump (is it easy to get to dropping the pan?).
If all is good with the pump and you think the oil pressure at these levels is unacceptable I will have to get someone to take the motor out and do a rebuilt ☹

Sorry for the long post and thank you for your suggestions!
Azar from snowy Germany.

[mark w]

To sum up, the new manual gauge oil pressure reading are in. The cold start Idle pressure reading 40-55psi is probably not that bad but what about the 7-8 psi idle at operating temperatures and 40-50 psi at higher revs (3000-4000 psi)?
I am really hoping it is a pickup pan. May be oil pump (is it easy to get to dropping the pan?).
If all is good with the pump and you think the oil pressure at these levels is unacceptable I will have to get someone to take the motor out and do a rebuilt ☹

Sorry for the long post and thank you for your suggestions!
Azar from snowy Germany.

the oil pump is not in the pan, its in the block, behind the timing cover, lower right corner. driven by timing chain from crank.
only the oil pickup tube is in the pan.

i would for inspection, drop the pan, and you will probably find more of the dark grey greasy stuff- finely ground up metallic metal. thats wear of your cams, chains, rings, bearing surfaces- anything steel. check that the pickup tube is not obstructed by some foreign matter.

Now back to your oil report- the clue is fuel in the oil. you have too much fuel. if the car is smoking black- too much fuel. this is washing the oil off the cylinder walls and rings and getting in the oil, thinning it out and causing it to lose its ability to protect parts in contact that require that oil film. as the car heats up, the oil thins out (lower viscosity) and metals expand, increasing tolerances between parts- and thus lower oil pressure.

check your fuel injection system is working and that your mixture is correct and check your injectors are spraying correctly and not leaking.

but if there is that dark gray matter in the pan, the damage may of been done.

[Azar]

the oil pump is not in the pan, its in the block, behind the timing cover, lower right corner. driven by timing chain from crank.
only the oil pickup tube is in the pan.

i would for inspection, drop the pan, and you will probably find more of the dark grey greasy stuff- finely ground up metallic metal. thats wear of your cams, chains, rings, bearing surfaces- anything steel. check that the pickup tube is not obstructed by some foreign matter.

Now back to your oil report- the clue is fuel in the oil. you have too much fuel. if the car is smoking black- too much fuel. this is washing the oil off the cylinder walls and rings and getting in the oil, thinning it out and causing it to lose its ability to protect parts in contact that require that oil film. as the car heats up, the oil thins out (lower viscosity) and metals expand, increasing tolerances between parts- and thus lower oil pressure.

check your fuel injection system is working and that your mixture is correct and check your injectors are spraying correctly and not leaking.

but if there is that dark gray matter in the pan, the damage may of been done.
Mark, thank you for your advise! As mentioned, DMC Houston have rebuilt the fuel distributor and the warm-up regulator, as well changed the spark plugs, cables, fuel lines. DMCH have fuel injectors cleaned and "they are spraying nicely". Since it was hunting for idle from the time I received the car, I have asked them what for the advise so they advised to burn through the old fuel and be refilled with local fuel and the car needs to really be driven around and get the soot and other settled-in carbon blasted out of it.

As I mentioned, we have tried to set he mixture adjusting the CO but it was not easy - when CO was low, the Lambda was high and HC (unburned fuel) very high. so we settled at 2% CO, 269 ppm HC and 1.020 Lambda. Also, the left bank exhaust manifold measured with the infrared thermometer was cooler than the right one. After adjusting the CO the temperature left and right stabilised.

Is there a nice write-up how to set up the mixture?
I will drop the oil pan within Jan/feb but I can drive the car from 1st of March (we do this in europe for the winter to save registration fees and insurance).

[Azar]

Here are the before and after results of the adjustments. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210118/9c6ca8f9aa5dd22ff72ae15c0bae315f.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210118/e41c4d507014f55cec74be162b3742d2.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210118/f06c5e4abd50946f7733bc693f912e12.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210118/61a35af41cb2ebc1240b190573d3e843.jpg

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[dn010]

If it was me, I'd stop running this engine and start pulling it to open it up. I'd want to check bearing surfaces, the oil pump and figure out where all this debris is coming from before it does more damage if it isn't too late already. You can't really just "drop the pan" anyway.

[Jonty]

If it was me, I'd stop running this engine and start pulling it to open it up. I'd want to check bearing surfaces, the oil pump and figure out where all this debris is coming from before it does more damage if it isn't too late already. You can't really just "drop the pan" anyway.

I agree. I know you really want to avoid this but it’s not a huge job to pull the engine. Get it out of the car and get it checked out. Pulling it out makes it easy to take the pan off and the timing covers to check for damage. It might all become obvious at that point and you either need to rebuild or you’ve found the issue.

[Azar]

Thank you for your suggestions! Currently the car is in the "wintersleep" till 1st of March so I am planning to do some work during this time. Unfortunately, I don't have space in the garage to do the engine-out and disassemble the engine. I have to ask one of my friends. The motor specialist, who could do this can only start in April. Let me see what I can do in between.

[Azar]

Hello, we have pulled the engine and started disassembling it. Looks like the coolant has found its way in to the oil probably resulted in low oil pressure (although it was also low after oil change and I drove about hundred miles after both changes last year, oil was constantly low). The bearings, camshafts and crankshaft look good. But the cylinder liners are not good! Already have marks on the walls (42k miles)...

Here are the photos: https://photos.app.goo.gl/rbw8B99AnvvkKDBQA

I will be ordering the Volvo style pistons and liners kit from DeloreanGo https://www.deloreango.com/eu/piston-kit-volvo.html

We did not disassemble the oil pump but I will order the new one from Delorean.eu https://www.delorean.eu/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=39005

The catalysator inside is crushed and blocked - might explain troubles getting the CO mixture right. Will just clean the cat and try without it.

I will also replace all seals and gaskets, Cylinder Liner spacer shims, Rod bearings, main bearings, timing chain guides and tensioners, Clutch with bearings and slave cylinder, thermostat (takes ages to warm the engine) and the fuel lines to the frequency valve (were not part of the DMC kit).

Water pump looks like new so will keep it.

What else should I check / change while there? Thanks!
66063660706606966068660676606666065660646606266061 66071

[Michael]

As long as the engine is apart, I would replace the waterpump no matter how good the old one looks.

[Azar]

As long as the engine is apart, I would replace the waterpump no matter how good the old one looks.

Thanks Michael! Which pump would you suggest? there are different ones - DMCH, Delorean EU (Ed) and DeLoreanGo.

[Michael]

Thanks Michael! Which pump would you suggest? there are different ones - DMCH, Delorean EU (Ed) and DeLoreanGo.

I only have experience with the DMCH one as I put that one in my car about 6 or 7 years ago. No complaints with it.

If I had to buy one tomorrow, and considering what an important part it is, and somewhat of a job to replace, I would get the best and IMO DeLorean Performance sells the best. Maybe not the cheapest but the best.

[Azar]

Bad news. Inspected the crankshaft and it looks like although under the rod bearings all is OK, there is a uneven wear under the main bearings. This must have been the reason for low oil pressure. Not sure how may this have happened but looks like the engine was already reassembled (previous owner brought the car from DMCH in 2011). The car hasn't been driven much since then and has just over 40k miles on the (working) odometer.

I can't find the oversize main and bearings, are they not available? Otherwise I am in the market for the new or used crankshaft. :(

Edit: found this on US ebay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/293380447096?hash=item444ed65b78:g:rdAAAOSws5Fd9pd a
.020 Main Bearing Set Volvo Peugeot Renault Dodge Delorean PRV B27 B28 V6

are these oversize (there are also .010 which the seller calls standard)? Would they fit DeLorean motor?

Appreciate help of the community. I am based in Germany. Thanks!

[Ron]

Bad news. Inspected the crankshaft and it looks like although under the rod bearings all is OK, there is a uneven wear under the main bearings. This must have been the reason for low oil pressure. Not sure how may this have happened but looks like the engine was already reassembled (previous owner brought the car from DMCH in 2011). The car hasn't been driven much since then and has just over 40k miles on the (working) odometer.

I can't find the oversize main and bearings, are they not available? Otherwise I am in the market for the new or used crankshaft. :(

Edit: found this on US ebay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/293380447096?hash=item444ed65b78:g:rdAAAOSws5Fd9pd a
.020 Main Bearing Set Volvo Peugeot Renault Dodge Delorean PRV B27 B28 V6

are these oversize (there are also .010 which the seller calls standard)? Would they fit DeLorean motor?

Appreciate help of the community. I am based in Germany. Thanks!The bearings in the link are marked "0.50mm" on the outside -- They are ~0.020 in. undersized and what you would use if your crank was ground .020" to clean up any wear. The amount is always stamped on the crank (as is any rod bearing grind). Look on your crank (and bearings) for the markings. What you buy must match...Unless it needs grinding (where the machine shop should supply them or tell you what size).

I didn't see the .010 bearings, which would not be standard (usually marked "STD").

[Azar]

The bearings in the link are marked "0.50mm" on the outside -- They are ~0.020 in. undersized and what you would use if your crank was ground .020" to clean up any wear. The amount is always stamped on the crank (as is any rod bearing grind). Look on your crank (and bearings) for the markings. What you buy must match...Unless it needs grinding (where the machine shop should supply them or tell you what size).

I didn't see the .010 bearings, which would not be standard (usually marked "STD").
Thanks Ron! The measured size of shaft is 70mm , so after repair I will need the 0,25mm or 0.010 inch bearings.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/293380447505?hash=item444ed65d11:g:teAAAOSwb4Vd9pV-
6609166092660936609466095

[Ron]

You've got it down now...Glad to help!

[Azar]

You've got it down now...Glad to help! I found a few stamps on the crankshaft... How are they marked if they were repaired already?.

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[Ron]

The stamp should be the size, E.G. "010" in US, but some use markers (paint). They are usually on the flywheel flange or a counterweight. Beware A LOT are not marked and some may have only one journal ground!

[David T]

If you don't have the micrometers to actually measure the journals then just get your parts to a machine shop. They should know what to do and how to do it. IMHO the damage is the RESULT of the low oil pressure, not the cause.

[Azar]

The stamp should be the size, E.G. "010" in US, but some use markers (paint). They are usually on the flywheel flange or a counterweight. Beware A LOT are not marked and some may have only one journal ground!Thanks Ron, nothing like this on the flange and counterweights. There some numbers and letters though.
I checked the documentation. Standard size is 70.062mm, which currently it is. Regrind should be 69.762mm, 0,3mm under. So we will take 0,25mm main bearings but they will do it with the crankshaft and the block to the exact measurements of the oversize bearings.
There is big marking "R" still visible on one of the counterweights.
Will replace the bearing with the SKF, too (made in China currently installed).
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210501/cb07ce43ecdd93440c6c74627d8edbbd.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210501/a719500037c5377598d56d04c25692a7.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210501/4fb4b200e178165c50f2b7a64ed12a2b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210501/0358ed5815a229e421512437888d673c.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210501/7873c9fd0388f0029920ba10b5b7c5ce.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210501/affbd3fbec0838827bfeb0e2c9cd84e4.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210501/cf8959804e4bd372451ca5f5a226ba2f.jpg

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[Azar]

If you don't have the micrometers to actually measure the journals then just get your parts to a machine shop. They should know what to do and how to do it. IMHO the damage is the RESULT of the low oil pressure, not the cause.Thanks David, yes, I visited them yesterday, that what they said. Get 0,25mm main bearings and I should bring the the block and all required parts.

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[Ron]

...might be the pic/me, but it looks like one place is smooth, yet blue (heat).


If you don't have the micrometers to actually measure the journals then just get your parts to a machine shop. They should know what to do and how to do it. IMHO the damage is the RESULT of the low oil pressure, not the cause.+1


Thanks Ron, nothing like this on the flange and counterweights. There some numbers and letters though.
I checked the documentation. Standard size is 70.062mm, which currently it is. Regrind should be 69.762mm, 0,3mm under. So we will take 0,25mm main bearings but they will do it with the crankshaft and the block to the exact measurements of the oversize bearings.
There is big marking "R" still visible on one of the counterweights.
Will replace the bearing with the SKF, too (made in China currently installed).
Only the high spots are 70.062mm. :smile:
I would wait until it goes to the machine shop before ordering the bearings, 0,30mm might not clean it up.
No idea what the "R" is for...

[Azar]

...might be the pic/me, but it looks like one place is smooth, yet blue (heat).

+1

Only the high spots are 70.062mm. :smile:
I would wait until it goes to the machine shop before ordering the bearings, 0,30mm might not clean it up.
No idea what the "R" is for...
The guy from machine shop told me to get the 0,25mm bearings and he will regrain exactly to this size. Sorry, english is not my native language, did you mean that it might require more than 0,3mm regrind and I may need 0,5mm oversize brarings?

[Ron]

The guy from machine shop told me to get the 0,25mm bearings and he will regrain exactly to this size. Sorry, english is not my native language, did you mean that it might require more than 0,3mm regrind and I may need 0,5mm oversize brarings?I didn't know that the machinist looked at the crank...he should choose.
(He will grind it as little as he can in steps of 0,25mm.)

[Azar]

If you don't have the micrometers to actually measure the journals then just get your parts to a machine shop. They should know what to do and how to do it. IMHO the damage is the RESULT of the low oil pressure, not the cause.David, I think you are spot on on this. If you check the photos in my first post, there are metal shavings on the magnet oil drain plug.I made a close up photos of the 4 main bearings and it looks like some hard particles have been dragged in between the main bearings and crankshaft. It is also obvious that the surface of the bearings is harder than the shaft. Was the crankshaft defective from from the manufacturing (not enough hardened)? In any way the filter did a bad job filtering all. Perhaps the previous owner lied about "regular oil changes". I haven't done the first oil change since I got the car (was done at DMCH) but they did not report the shaving. I have made the earlier photos of the oil change last year, half a year later after shipping and registering the car driving less than 100 miles.
Still not clear why the surface below the rod bearings is almost perfect. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210502/f26109bfadd1c6fddacce02134968eaf.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210502/b51128f53ceae0dc5a560adff3fc7570.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210502/e8b9c298d502bee5ba5590fa4f397de3.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210502/671499ea8bdd9b98079a03389d3f7614.jpg

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[Bitsyncmaster]

Rod and Main bearings are made with soft surfaces. In the old days you could repair the Babbitt bearings.

[Jakub]

Any new developments?

[Azar]

Any new developments?Yes, finished motor rebuilt in September, ran 1000km and changed oil, 20w-50. Now in the winter storage since 1st of Nov, waking the baby up in just 2 weeks!

[Jakub]

And how is oil pressure now?
I am particularly interested because I’ve lived oil pressure saga of my own. All in all after numerous intervention I have barely 2 bar at 1000 RPM and 4bar above 2000 RPM.

[Azar]

And how is oil pressure now?
I am particularly interested because I’ve lived oil pressure saga of my own. All in all after numerous intervention I have barely 2 bar at 1000 RPM and 4bar above 2000 RPM.I need to dig in to the records but the manual gauge connected directly to the motor instead of the dash sensor showing good pressure. The dash sensor is showing low when warm but the light is not coming on. I will monitor in 2022 and report.

2 Bar at 1000 is very good then in warm state? 4 bar above 2000 is perfect. Or am I missing something here?

[Jakub]

I do need also refresh the subject. From memory, and with age memory is not what it used to be, there are different recommendations depending if you dig into Volvo or DeLorean manual.
On the warm day and after prolonged drive the car oil pressure gauge goes really low but the warning light never comes on. And before last work on the engine warning light would flicker sometimes.

On unrelated subject, are you planning to participate in Berlin DeLorean meet in June?

[Azar]

I do need also refresh the subject. From memory, and with age memory is not what it used to be, there are different recommendations depending if you dig into Volvo or DeLorean manual.
On the warm day and after prolonged drive the car oil pressure gauge goes really low but the warning light never comes on. And before last work on the engine warning light would flicker sometimes.

On unrelated subject, are you planning to participate in Berlin DeLorean meet in June?Yes, this was the behaviour before rebuilt with the only difference - the warning light started flickering after 30 minutes drive.

Yes, I have marked the dates in the calendar for the Berlin meet up, hope I can make it!