Drove the Delorean for the first time.

[Helirich]

Woohoo!

It was fun while it lasted. Lol.

So I got my fancy PPV o-rings and installed them in the car last night. Started it up and it would run as long as I didn't let it go to idle. I decided to take it for a spin to see if warming it up made a differnce. First I drove it around my yard few times. I have 10 acres and it seemed to drive fine. It had more power than I would expect from 130hp. I asked my wife if she wanted to go for a short ride on the road. She said she would stay there incase I needed rescuing. (Smart woman)

So I drive down to my gate. Of course this is the first time I used the brakes with some speed. They worked, but were a little grabby. The rotors look terrible and I figured it was cleaning off some rust. Anyways, right after I got on the road, I had problems. First, the steering was pulling to the left hard. I got in second gear and was going up the road about half a mile when the engine started getting weaker. I figured there was trouble and decided to go back. I turned around and got a short distance and it wouldn't go.

I still ran and now it would idle. I suspected the brakes were locked up. I got out and felt them and three of them were warm. The left front was smoking hot. I couldn't push the car at all. The engine ran, but couldn't be revved above 2 grand. I shut it off and called the wife. I towed it home with my truck. (Wife driving)

When I got it in my yard, I left it while I put away my truck and some other stuff. Because I had the warning lights on while I towed it, the battery was dead. (12 year old battery) I had another somewhat newer battery in my shop, so I installed it. I tried the starter and it cranked right up and ran fine. I drove it around the yard and everything was fine for about two minutes. Then the engine was back to limited revs. I put it in garage. At least the brakes seemed to have fixed them selves. (I'm sure I will be changing them out soon.)

Today's another day. Ha-ha.

[David T]

For the brake problem you will be rebuilding or replacing the 4 calipers and the master cylinder. Good idea to do the clutch cylinders too. For the idle problem, that could be a lot of things. Start with a good battery.

[Timeless]

Can't believe you had the nuts to drive it with a 12 year old battery - let alone rusty/old brakes.

[cdrusn]

The brakes are pretty normal from sitting. Rebuild kits are available from vendors and are cheap. Easy to rebuild unless the piston and bore are rusted but even then the parts are available. While they're off being rebuilt take the rotors to NAPA for a $20 apiece cut. Are you saying the car wouldn't rev past 2K with a load or without a load? When my caliper stuck it felt like the engine was straining but wouldn't rev, too much of a load. Sounds like you will be back on the road with just a few small repairs.

[David T]

Not everyone is comfortable rebuilding brake parts. For those that do, the calipers are usually rebuildable but the pistons get corroded and have to be replaced and the seals get torn. The master cylinder bore gets corroded and is usually unrebuldable. If you take the rotors to get cut, have them take just a skim cut (0.010) to clean and true them up. Or just get a 3" 80# pad on a drill and clean the rust off. If the pedal pulsates then you could cut the rotors. Once you can get the car moving you can better see how the motor works. And it will be a lot safer! This is not unusual for a car that has been sitting for a long time.

[Helirich]

I've worked on cars/boats/aircraft my whole life. I have zero fear about rebuilding brakes. (Done it many times) I have my own lathe and can true the rotors up no problem. I will probably get new ones because I'm betting they won't clean up in the allowable cut. We'll see. I was reading the thread about vented discs up front and I might do that. Looks like an easy job. (Don't think it needs it in the rear.) But I want it running before I tackle that stuff.

The engine would not rev up under no load. In fact, it would rev up from an idle till about 2,000 and then start backing off if you pushed it further. Haven't had time to work on it today. Im courious if it will drive good till it warms up. The water temp gauge barely moved last night, but when I went back there a lot of heat was coming out. Makes me wonder if the water pump is working. I wish I had checked the rad last night. I never heard the fans.

[Helirich]

So I just came in from working on it. First, I checked the front brakes. Amazing enough, they looked pretty good. The rotors were cleaned off by last nights adventure. I jacked it up, spun the tire and pushed the brake and all was fine. I didn't look at the rear brakes, but I'm fairly pleased.

Next I started it. Even though my shop battery is old, it starts the car easily. It seemed to rev ok, so took it around the yard again. It wasn't terrible, but I could see it was reving like it should. I pulled it in the garage with the back out and let it idle. I wanted it to get up to temp and see the fans come on. Well I idled and revved the engine for fifteen minutes and the gauge never got over 120-130. I went up and felt the front rad hose and it was stone cold. It was about 70 degrees outside. I pointed a lazor temp gauge at the rad hoses around the engine and they were running around 160. What gives? Does this car not get hot?

Now for the real kicker. While I was checking things at the engine, I noticed a lot of heat coming up. Funny with everything running so cool. Then I saw it, the exhaust chamber on the driver's side of the engine was glowing red. I've seen exhaust manifolds glow when they were worked hard, but this was just idling. I sware they were translucent.

So my new theory is the exhaust is somewhat plugged. Hot exhaust does come out of both pipes, so I'm not sure. I've heard if you plug someone's exhaust pipe with a potato, it will run bad and overheat. Not sure if it only overheats the engine and not the water.

Anybody have experience like this?

[Josh]

you likely have a clogged injector, that cylinder is running dangerously lean.
Beyond this and the brakes it should like the fuel system needs some work.

Edit, unless you are refering to the Cat, not one of the primaries. the cat internals can collapse and clog. the muffler is cross flow so any exhaust from either side of the engine combines and comes out both tips.

[Citizen]

Now for the real kicker. While I was checking things at the engine, I noticed a lot of heat coming up. Funny with everything running so cool. Then I saw it, the exhaust chamber on the driver's side of the engine was glowing red. I've seen exhaust manifolds glow when they were worked hard, but this was just idling. I sware they were translucent.

So my new theory is the exhaust is somewhat plugged. Hot exhaust does come out of both pipes, so I'm not sure.

Anybody have experience like this?

I think if you have normal exhaust flow and the engine seems to run normally, it is not likely your exhaust system is plugged.

If the engine is extremely hot, but the temp gauge is normal, and the temperature of the hoses near the radiator are normal, doesn't this indicate a failed cooling system (no coolant flow or low coolant level, air in the system)?

...

[Jonathan]

Besides the other suggestions on things to work on, you can at least reliably test the electrical function of the cooling fans without the engine running. So that you can see if they work or not before trying to do it with the engine getting hot.

The fans will come on either because the otterstat (aka coolant temperature switch) tells them to or the A/C compressor is on (the fans will run anytime the compressor clutch is engaged). The easiest way is to jumper the leads that connect to the otterstat. With those connected, the fans will come on and stay on. And you can do this by only needing to have the ignition key turned to accessories (i.e. you do not need to start the engine).

Do this and then without any risk to your engine temperatures, go back around the front and look or feel what the fans are doing. It should be pretty obvious because they are not the quietest set of fans you'll ever see.

More info on the otterstat here: http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?10336-Assorted-Helpful-Technical-Photos&p=166051&viewfull=1#post166051

[FABombjoy]

On a cold day it can take a while for things to warm up if only idling.

I checked a recent data log. At 44F ambient, it took my car 12 minutes to pass 180F (sensor is in the Y-pipe). And that's with a warm-up 1300RPM idle.

Radiator pipes would have definitely been cold that entire time.

[Helirich]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Exhaust- it is the catalytic converter that is getting red. I know they are supposed to get hot, but red hot at idle? I had a truck get one clogged and it burnt a valve. I think I need to check this out quick.

The water temp is a tricky one. The fans have been tested and they work. (Jumper at the sensor) hot water is not getting to the rad, so I would suspect the pump or the thermostat. The heater works, so wouldn't that indicate the thermostat? But why isn't the guage going up? I guess I could have a sensor failure also, but it's not like the guage is dead. (It just reads low.)

It would seem like a plugged converter would make the engine run hot.

[Helirich]

On a cold day it can take a while for things to warm up if only idling.

I checked a recent data log. At 44F ambient, it took my car 12 minutes to pass 180F (sensor is in the Y-pipe). And that's with a warm-up 1300RPM idle.

Radiator pipes would have definitely been cold that entire time.

It was 70 F outside and I drove around the yard a couple laps (10 acres) be fore sitting and idling for at least ten minutes. But mine was idling at about 800rpm.

[David T]

If the cat is glowing red it is getting too much fuel and it is burning in the convertor. The fuel plunger is probably stuck in the mixture unit. If the rad doesn't heat up you probably have air in the cooling system and the water pump can't move air. Fans should start after about 15-20 minutes of idling. Jump the "O" switch to verify the fans work.

[Helirich]

If the cat is glowing red it is getting too much fuel and it is burning in the convertor. The fuel plunger is probably stuck in the mixture unit. If the rad doesn't heat up you probably have air in the cooling system and the water pump can't move air. Fans should start after about 15-20 minutes of idling. Jump the "O" switch to verify the fans work.

So I jumped the fuel pump and pulled one injector. It has a good spray. That's without touching the throttle. I'm thinking it should not spray untill the plate is pushed down. Correct?

If so, what should I be looking at? Where is this mixture unit?

[Ron]

So I jumped the fuel pump and pulled one injector. It has a good spray. That's without touching the throttle. I'm thinking it should not spray untill the plate is pushed down. Correct?

If so, what should I be looking at? Where is this mixture unit?
Correct. Could be the Fuel Distributor's (FD/mixture unit) plunger is stuck (...as said about the cat glowing earlier).

The other end of each injector line is connected to the FD.
I'd try removing the FD and confirm that the plunger is sticking (it normally slides out -- Be careful that the plunger does not drop out). Do not take the FD apart.

[Helirich]

Correct. Could be the Fuel Distributor's (FD/mixture unit) plunger is stuck (...as said about the cat glowing earlier).

The other end of each injector line is connected to the FD.
I'd try removing the FD and confirm that the plunger is sticking (it normally slides out -- Be careful that the plunger does not drop out). Do not take the FD apart.

How do you remove the dist? The manual says nothing. Do the injector lines need to be removed first and bolts/screws underneath?

In other news, I decided to start the car with the air cleaner off. It will rev up fine now, but it won't idle. (The air cleaner is brand new.) so I guess the air cleaner is restricting just enough air that the rich fuel will bog the engine.

I pulled the muffler and cat. The cat is clear and I left the muffler off for now. (Sounds like a youngins car)

[Michael]

How do you remove the dist? The manual says nothing. Do the injector lines need to be removed first and bolts/screws underneath?

In other news, I decided to start the car with the air cleaner off. It will rev up fine now, but it won't idle. (The air cleaner is brand new.) so I guess the air cleaner is restricting just enough air that the rich fuel will bog the engine.

I pulled the muffler and cat. The cat is clear and I left the muffler off for now. (Sounds like a youngins car)
Three standard head screws hold it in place. If they are stuck soak them in PB Blaster overnight and try again. You might need to use an impact driver(gentley) to keep from damaging the heads if they are still too tight.

You can remove the distributer to check plunger play with injector lines in place but that's about it. Before you put this car into service, you will need to replace the original lines with new braided lines.

I haven't seen pics of your car but you should post some just to give us an idea of what we are dealing with (and we can give you an idea). I hesitantly say you will be spending 5 figures to make your car anywhere near reliable.

[Helirich]

Three standard head screws hold it in place. If they are stuck soak them in PB Blaster overnight and try again. You might need to use an impact driver(gentley) to keep from damaging the heads if they are still too tight.

You can remove the distributer to check plunger play with injector lines in place but that's about it. Before you put this car into service, you will need to replace the original lines with new braided lines.

I haven't seen pics of your car but you should post some just to give us an idea of what we are dealing with (and we can give you an idea). I hesitantly say you will be spending 5 figures to make your car anywhere near reliable.

Found the three screws. Got the dist. off. What is suppose to move under there? (Cause nothing does) I think I will U tube this.



In other news,

I ran it at 2000 rpm for about ten minutes and the thermostat opened making the rad hot. A few minutes later the fans turned on. So I guess that all works. I let it go back to idle and the fans shut off after a minute. The car does run cool, I guess.

[Ron]

Found the three screws. Got the dist. off. What is suppose to move under there? (Cause nothing does) I think I will U tube this.

This guy 65683. It's in the center bore (see arrow):

65684
(Your's may not have the retainer.)

[Michael]

I just happen to have a fuel distributor laying around.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0IopAcC5Pg&feature=youtu.be

I didn't mention it but besides a new FD and CPR, if you still have the OE fuel lines, most definately new braided fuel lines. This is probably just the beginning.

[Helirich]

It was locked. I grabbed it with a smooth pliers and twisted it back and forth. Finally it was free. Installed everything back. Checked the injector. Now no spray unless you push the plate. But of course it won't start now. It appears to me that the plate must be pushed quite a bit before it sprays. I can pour some gas in the plate and it will start and run for a few seconds. It just seems like the plate wouldn't suck down that much. I need to see what it looks like when someone else is cranking the motor.

[Jonathan]

How do you remove the dist? The manual says nothing. Do the injector lines need to be removed first and bolts/screws underneath?

In other news, I decided to start the car with the air cleaner off. It will rev up fine now, but it won't idle. (The air cleaner is brand new.) so I guess the air cleaner is restricting just enough air that the rich fuel will bog the engine.

I pulled the muffler and cat. The cat is clear and I left the muffler off for now. (Sounds like a youngins car)

Just one note about this... make sure the air cleaner going back on gets centred over that plate well and then push it down snug over the o-ring. I find sometimes if you remove the air filter housing while it still has the duct connected on the right side, it tends to pull down on that right side unevenly and can sit a little cock-eyed.

That plate needs to be able to move very freely for everything in the fuel/air mixture system to work correctly and you don't want to have the air filter housing pinched in on it slightly. Slide the duct off, reinstall the housing and then put the duct back together.

And like Michael suggested, post some pictures as you might be missing something obvious that you don't realize and others on here might spot for you.

[Michael]

It was locked. I grabbed it with a smooth pliers and twisted it back and forth. Finally it was free. Installed everything back. Checked the injector. Now no spray unless you push the plate. But of course it won't start now. It appears to me that the plate must be pushed quite a bit before it sprays. I can pour some gas in the plate and it will start and run for a few seconds. It just seems like the plate wouldn't suck down that much. I need to see what it looks like when someone else is cranking the motor.

It's not enough the control plunger in the distributor is unstuck, it must move freely up and down and without restriction. If it was stuck, the metering barrel is probably all gunked up too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa9EptnmZXk

[Helirich]

And like Michael suggested, post some pictures as you might be missing something obvious that you don't realize and others on here might spot for you.

I tried to post some pics when he suggested that earlier. For some reason, it says my Supermotors URL is invalid. (It works on other forums.) If I try to post a pic right from my iPad, it says it's too big. I kind of hate puters.


It's not enough the control plunger in the distributor is unstuck, it must move freely up and down and without restriction.

The plunger/plate moves nice and smooth now. Does anybody know how far the plate moves when the fuel starts spraying? Seems like mine must move a lot before it starts. (Like a 1/2") I guess I need to start searching some videos. I know there's an adjustment, but why would it be far off? When I dump some gas in the plate, it starts right now. But as soon as the gas runs out, it shuts off like the plate was never pulled down enough to start spraying.

The other thing I noticed was the hot air valve on the air cleaner. It seems like it requires a lot of pressure to force it open. I know the spring gets soft as it warms up, but hard to believe it even opens.

[Jonathan]

Read about the first 15 pages of Section D of the Workshop Manual (Fuel & Emissions) for an explanation and a couple good diagrams of how it works. That air metering plate is connected by direct linkage to the plunger, so the travel of one should be exactly the travel of the other.

[David T]

Now you have to see why the cold start valve isn't working. That is why it won't start.

[Helirich]

Read about the first 15 pages of Section D of the Workshop Manual (Fuel & Emissions) for an explanation and a couple good diagrams of how it works. That air metering plate is connected by direct linkage to the plunger, so the travel of one should be exactly the travel of the other.

I've got a manual and I've read it several times. It's like a chilltons, they never seem to tell you what you need. I would really like to measure the primary and control pressure. But I don't have the fancy hose set up. If I can't rig something, I'll have to wait till the covid mail delivers.


Now you have to see why the cold start valve isn't working. That is why it won't start.

If I pour gas in the plate, it starts right up. It only runs for a few seconds, but it should keep running regardless of the cold start at that point. I'm thinking the control pressure is to high and it makes the plate too hard for the air to suck it down far enough to make it spray.

[David T]

Pouring gas in is exactly what the cold start valve does (or at least is supposed to do when it is working). Don't go off on a tangent and play with the pressures yet. Pull the cold start valve and see if sprays when trying to start up cold. You see the injectors do spray when you push on the air sensor plate so even if the pressures aren't perfect, they have to be close. If the pressures are off it is because;
A) the Control Pressure Regulator needs to be rebuilt/re calibrated
or
B) the Primary Pressure Regulator needs to be shimmed to achieve the correct pressure

Neither will prevent the motor from staring but can make it run badly. The cold start valve will work properly even if the pressures are way off. It doesn't need the high, controlled pressure that the fuel injectors do.

[Helirich]

Ok, I'm getting somewhere.

First, the start valve is working. If I switch the key on, I can hear the valve buzz. If I try to crank right away, nothing. If I turn the key on and wait 20 seconds and then crank, it starts right up. It only runs for a few seconds, but at least it works.

Second, I pulled an injector and jumped the fuel pump. I slowly pushed the plate down till it just started spraying. I had a dial caliper and measured 3/8" at the rear of the plate. I had no idea how far the plate sucks down when running, so I had my wife start it while I watched the plate. It started and ran for a few seconds and never got more than 1/8" open at the rear. So obviously it's running out of fuel. Just for fun I pushed the plate down about 1/2" and had her start it. Cranked right up and ran nice as long as I held it. When I released it, the plate closed to about 1/8" and it died.

I guess I need to adjust the mixture screw. Not sure why this would be out of adjustment so far. Maybe it's very sensitive. Have any of you adjusted it? Of course all the U tube videos are of Mercedes. I guess it's the same.

[David T]

The valve you hear buzzing is the frequency valve located on the right side valve cover. The cold start valve in on the left side on the air pipe. You may have to adjust the mixture valve but before you touch it there are some things you must check. We have to assume the mixture is close because the car did run before (way before when it got parked) and the mixture screw hasn't been touched yet, has it? There is a procedure to rough adjust the mixture screw where you just shut off the fuel injectors with the air sensor plate at rest, motor off. It is a rough adjustment because a TINY adjustment makes a HUGE effect. Once you get the motor to run and idle you can do a more accurate adjustment but everything else must be perfect to do it right. The mixture adjustment cannot compensate for anything not working correctly.

[Michael]

Oh boy.

First you heard the frequency valve. Pull the CSV and lay it on a rag. Try cranking it cold and the rag should be soaked with fuel(or if the engine is warm swap the plugs with the WUR). If neither work then see if you are getting voltage at the plug.

I doubt the mixture is the problem as it ran fine before it started loosing power and failing to idle. You need to dive into full diagnostic mode and that includes checking the ignition side. You could have a cracked dist cap or bad rotor or it's very possible all the varnish in your lines has clogged up the new fuel filter. You need a dwell meter or multi meter to set the mixture and it has to be running in closed loop to set it. I think there is a way to get it close by jumping the fuel pump and pulling a injector or 2. I wouldn't focus on the mixture though.

[Michael]

PS, the OE fuel pumps suck ass. There just aren't any good ones since Bosch outsourced the manufacturing. I got 50 miles out of my last OE pump before going to the newer cross referenced pump modules.

Something tells me that you will be replacing the FD and WUR and while you are there you really need to get those OE fuel lines out of there. You will be bending a lot of them pulling and testing injectors and such.

[Helirich]

First, I don't know about the fecquency thing, but the start valve was vibrating.

In any case, I pulled an injector, jumped the fuel and started turning mixture. I would adjust it 1/2 a turn and then push down the plate till the fuel sprayed. Repeat. I probably made two full turns before I got it to spray when the plate was 1/8" down. Put it all back together and hit the starter.

Woohoo!

Started right up and idled. Revved it a couple times and seems to run normal. I didn't drive it yet because I have a couple leaks at banjo bolts. Also I'm nearly out of gas. I'm going in to town to try to get some new copper washers and some fresh gas.

But I'm feeling confident I finally got it. Let's hold that feeling. Ha-ha.

[Michael]

First, I don't know about the fecquency thing, but the start valve was vibrating.

In any case, I pulled an injector, jumped the fuel and started turning mixture. I would adjust it 1/2 a turn and then push down the plate till the fuel sprayed. Repeat. I probably made two full turns before I got it to spray when the plate was 1/8" down. Put it all back together and hit the starter.

Woohoo!

Started right up and idled. Revved it a couple times and seems to run normal. I didn't drive it yet because I have a couple leaks at banjo bolts. Also I'm nearly out of gas. I'm going in to town to try to get some new copper washers and some fresh gas.

But I'm feeling confident I finally got it. Let's hold that feeling. Ha-ha.

Once it goes into closed loop, you can get that mixture dialed in but also be aware it's very possible that by adjusting the mixture, you are just compensating for another issue such as a vacuum leak. 2 full turns is almost hard to believe.

[Helirich]

Once it goes into closed loop, you can get that mixture dialed in but also be aware it's very possible that by adjusting the mixture, you are just compensating for another issue such as a vacuum leak. 2 full turns is almost hard to believe.

Yea, I don't understand. Maybe the guy I bought it from was screwing with it. Can't hear any vacuum leak, but I need to trace it all out. I couldn't go driving today because of the fuel leaks. Of course I can't find copper washers that size. I'll have to order them online.

Exactly what is the construction of the current fuel lines? There seems to be a soft rubber outer sleeve. I haven't pulled it back because I think I will wreck it. Is it just a heavy rubber inside? Do they start cracking or something with age? I believe my leak is from one banjo bolt seal, but it seems like the fuel is traveling in the outer sleeve to the other end.

[Michael]

Yea, I don't understand. Maybe the guy I bought it from was screwing with it. Can't hear any vacuum leak, but I need to trace it all out. I couldn't go driving today because of the fuel leaks. Of course I can't find copper washers that size. I'll have to order them online.

Exactly what is the construction of the current fuel lines? There seems to be a soft rubber outer sleeve. I haven't pulled it back because I think I will wreck it. Is it just a heavy rubber inside? Do they start cracking or something with age? I believe my leak is from one banjo bolt seal, but it seems like the fuel is traveling in the outer sleeve to the other end.

More than a few DeLoreans have burnt to the ground due to fuel leaks and the biggest culprit is failed fuel lines. The OE lines are a polymer plastic designed for fuel systems wrapped in a rubber sleeve but I don't think anyone expected them last 40 years. Considering the CIS runs with 65-70psi over hot manifolds, the lines failing is almost a certain fire situation. From what you described, the line may already be leaking as a banjo fitting leak should be easy to see....especially if it's large enough to travel the length of a fuel line to the other end. I would not let this car idle for long until I did a complete braided line replacement with new seals. Might be a good idea to replaces the rubber injector seals too and get some clips as you will probably damage a few getting them out.

[Michael]

This is the line kit I didn't get but wish I had. If Josh took Paypal I would be buying a lot more from him.

https://deloreanindustries.com/delorean-braided-stainless-fuel-injection-line-set/

[TTait]

DeloreanGo has nice fuel line kits as well. They also have the vented rotor kit you mentioned before plus other goodies.



Don't get me wrong, Josh sells quality kit too...

[Michael]

DeloreanGo has nice fuel line kits as well. They also have the vented rotor kit you mentioned before plus other goodies.



Don't get me wrong, Josh sells quality kit too...
I got the Deloreango kit. I was not crazy about the fitment.

[Helirich]

This is the line kit I didn't get but wish I had. If Josh took Paypal I would be buying a lot more from him.

https://deloreanindustries.com/delorean-braided-stainless-fuel-injection-line-set/

Just ordered this. It appears that the banjo bolt to line is leaking. Only started when I disturbed it messing with the distributor. It's only the start line, but can't see keeping them when it's so fragile. It really sucks I can't do anymore testing till I get it.

I checked some of the other venders, but this seemed like the best option. Thanks for the link.

[Rich]

Good move to replace them all. As you say, if one of them has failed at the end of its hard plastic hose as you say then the others are probably brittle from heat and age now, too. Especially good to get rid of the originals since you are likely to have to move/stress more of the lines and fittings in your continued troubleshooting.

The pressure in the cold start valve feed line is high when engine is on, whether warm or cold. Consider yourself lucky to notice the failure early; before the leak got bigger.

And consider buying more pairs of copper washers of various sizes soon if not already done. As you may know they are one-time items, not considered reusable after a banjo bolt is torqued. You could get lucky on a given fitting but....


Just ordered this. It appears that the banjo bolt to line is leaking. Only started when I disturbed it messing with the distributor. It's only the start line, but can't see keeping them when it's so fragile. It really sucks I can't do anymore testing till I get it.

[Helirich]

So got the new lines in and took it for a drive around the yard. It still is not running right. It seems like the more I warm it up, the more limited in rpms it becomes. I had it warm enough to give me heat out the vents and I could floor the throttle and it wouldn't go past 5,000. It was somewhat reluctant to go beyond 4000.

I checked the timing and it was spot on. I haven't pulled the plugs yet. I guess that's next. I really don't think it's electrical.

Question, is the coil just a standard coil? (Looks like it)

Second question, when you are idling, where is your oil pressure? Mine is at the quarter line. I guess that's 20psi. (It goes up to 65-70 when off idle.)

[Ron]

Yeah ~1.0Ω
Most of the gauges I've seen read 1/4 @ idle then almost max out quickly.

Time for the fuel pressure gauge, imho.

[Helirich]

Time for the fuel pressure gauge, imho.

Yea, I need to get that setup ordered. I'm going out of state for a few weeks, so got no time to do anything. I hate to go right now, but I will probably pay for the whole car this trip.

[David T]

Because your fuel plunger was stuck, my guess is the injectors need to be cleaned. Do not replace the coil, they rarely go bad and the aftermarket ones fail quickly.

[Ron]

Yea, I need to get that setup ordered. I'm going out of state for a few weeks, so got no time to do anything. I hate to go right now, but I will probably pay for the whole car this trip.I was going to say make one, if the old line going from the FD to the CPR/WRU was ok...I thought you said you were retired...:deviltail:

[Michael]

So got the new lines in and took it for a drive around the yard. It still is not running right. It seems like the more I warm it up, the more limited in rpms it becomes. I had it warm enough to give me heat out the vents and I could floor the throttle and it wouldn't go past 5,000. It was somewhat reluctant to go beyond 4000.

I checked the timing and it was spot on. I haven't pulled the plugs yet. I guess that's next. I really don't think it's electrical.

Question, is the coil just a standard coil? (Looks like it)

Second question, when you are idling, where is your oil pressure? Mine is at the quarter line. I guess that's 20psi. (It goes up to 65-70 when off idle.)


Oil pressure is usually pegged off idle unless you have a newer properly calibrated sensor, which is usually in the 40-70 range off idle.

Unless the car is missing or has a dead cylinder, I would focus on fuel rather than ignition especially if the timing is accurate although I wouldn't discount a bad ignition advance solenoid or vacuum leak(or a damaged cap or rotor). Like Ron suggests, it may be time to dive into fuel issues. My money is still on the fuel distributor but that's and expensive item to throw against the wall and see what sticks without a bit of testing.

[Riley88]

Because your fuel plunger was stuck, my guess is the injectors need to be cleaned. Do not replace the coil, they rarely go bad and the aftermarket ones fail quickly.

I agree, I had a good talk with Danny Botkin about this at one point. He said after all the years he and the team at DMC Huntington Beach have worked on these cars they have only every found 1, yes 1 bad coil. Thats it

[Helirich]

Because your fuel plunger was stuck, my guess is the injectors need to be cleaned. Do not replace the coil, they rarely go bad and the aftermarket ones fail quickly.

I have done a spray test recently and they appeared good. I tested five of them. I switched the driver's front one to the back during the line swap so I can easily test it now.


I was going to say make one, if the old line going from the FD to the CPR/WRU was ok...I thought you said you were retired...:deviltail:

I thought about this, but it probably wouldn't hurt to have the proper one in my tool box. Yea, I'm supposed to be retired. I don't know why I agreed to do this, I don't need the money.

Here's a theory, as I understand it, the control pressure pushes the plunger down. If the inlet screen to the control unit is clogged, Control pressure would be weak and the plunger would go up easy, giving more fuel. After running awhile, enough fuel gets past the screen to bring the pressure up and push harder on the plunger. If the control unit was bad, it would eventually allow primary pressure to the plunger. This would make it real hard for the vacuum to suck the plate down and give it more fuel when revving. Does that sound feasible? Or do I got the whole operation wrong?

The reason I mention this is I saw the inlet screen was clogged on the control unit. I pulled the top screen out, but distroyed it getting it out. The next screen was hard to see, but I assumed it shouldn't be as bad and left it there. (I believe there's two more screens.)

[Bitsyncmaster]

Here's a theory, as I understand it, the control pressure pushes the plunger down. If the inlet screen to the control unit is clogged, Control pressure would be weak and the plunger would go up easy, giving more fuel. After running awhile, enough fuel gets past the screen to bring the pressure up and push harder on the plunger. If the control unit was bad, it would eventually allow primary pressure to the plunger. This would make it real hard for the vacuum to suck the plate down and give it more fuel when revving. Does that sound feasible? Or do I got the whole operation wrong?

The reason I mention this is I saw the inlet screen was clogged on the control unit. I pulled the top screen out, but distroyed it getting it out. The next screen was hard to see, but I assumed it shouldn't be as bad and left it there. (I believe there's two more screens.)

Air flow into the engine pushes the plunger in. Fuel pressures do not push it in.

[Helirich]

Air flow into the engine pushes the plunger in. Fuel pressures do not push it in.

Yes, but fuel pressure is what holds the plunger out. So if you have more pressure to it, the air flow has a harder time pushing it in.

[Ron]

Here's a theory, as I understand it, the control pressure pushes the plunger down. If the inlet screen to the control unit is clogged, Control pressure would be weak and the plunger would go up easy, giving more fuel. After running awhile, enough fuel gets past the screen to bring the pressure up and push harder on the plunger. If the control unit was bad, it would eventually allow primary pressure to the plunger. This would make it real hard for the vacuum to suck the plate down and give it more fuel when revving. Does that sound feasible? Or do I got the whole operation wrong?

The reason I mention this is I saw the inlet screen was clogged on the control unit. I pulled the top screen out, but distroyed it getting it out. The next screen was hard to see, but I assumed it shouldn't be as bad and left it there. (I believe there's two more screens.)

No, a clogged WUR/CPR screen will cause the control pressure to be too strong:
The primary pressure from within the FD is applied to the plunger, pushing it down. The WUR/CPR bleeds off that pressure, according to the radiant engine temp, to create control pressure. A balancing act. So, if anything prevents the WUR/CPR from bleeding pressure off, the control pressure will raise and match the primary pressure, causing the plunger to be too low and the air-fuel to be extremely lean. (This is exactly what happens when you shut the valve on the gauge set to read primary pressure.)

[Helirich]

No, a clogged WUR/CPR screen will cause the control pressure to be too strong:
The primary pressure from within the FD is applied to the plunger, pushing it down. The WUR/CPR bleeds off that pressure, according to the radiant engine temp, to create control pressure. A balancing act. So, if anything prevents the WUR/CPR from bleeding pressure off, the control pressure will raise and match the primary pressure, causing the plunger to be too low and the air-fuel to be extremely lean. (This is exactly what happens when you shut the valve on the gauge set to read primary pressure.)

Ahh, I see, said the blind man as he picked up the hammer and saw. So maybe I should pull all of those screens. I wish there was a way to get them out without distroying them.

In any case, I won't be able to work on it for a few weeks. I'll get one of those pressure gauges coming.

[Helirich]

So I got home from Delaware today to find my fancy fuel injection test kit. Went right out and hooked it up. I need to recheck the procedure on here, but I think I got it right from memory. If I did it right, here's the results.

Primary pressure-72psi

Control pressure-72psi, lol

I immediately removed all the screens from the control unit inlet and checked it again. Same results.

[Ron]

You might check that the Red and Blue lines are not crossed and the Green line is not restricted (it is the return to the tank):

65789
Path: Yellow => WUR/CPR => Blue => FD chamber => Green => Tank.

If no luck, I'd suspect the WUR/CPR first and check:
Disconnect the Blue line from the FD.
Plug the FD port using one of the hoses on the gauge. [Set to Primary pressure (valve shut).]
Place the loose end of the Blue line into a gas can.
Power the pump and see if fuel flows...
If fuel does not flow, the WUR/CPR is at fault.
Otherwise, the FD's return chamber is totally clogged up (rare).

[Helirich]

You might check that the Red and Blue lines are not crossed and the Green line is not restricted (it is the return to the tank):

65789
Path: Yellow => WUR/CPR => Blue => FD chamber => Green => Tank.

If no luck, I'd suspect the WUR/CPR first and check:
Disconnect the Blue line from the FD.
Plug the FD port using one of the hoses on the gauge. [Set to Primary pressure (valve shut).]
Place the loose end of the Blue line into a gas can.
Power the pump and see if fuel flows...
If fuel does not flow, the WUR/CPR is at fault.
Otherwise, the FD's return chamber is totally clogged up (rare).

This is what I was thinking. I'm almost certain the green line is not restricted. If it were, wouldn't the primary pressure go beyond 72 psi? I'm pretty sure the red and blue are not crossed, but I will check.

Edit, red and blue are not crossed. My red wont even reach to the other port.

So if the blue does not flow, should I reverse pressure it with compressed air or fuel/solvent?

I watched a video of a unit being rebuilt and it looks easy. But I can't find a rebuild kit. Anybody know where I can get one? I see rebuilt units are $500, so if all else fails, that will be an option.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Make sure the screen on the inlet to the WUR is clear. But when my WUR failed it read the same high pressure (same as primary pressure).

[Ron]

This is what I was thinking. I'm almost certain the green line is not restricted. If it were, wouldn't the primary pressure go beyond 72 psi? I'm pretty sure the red and blue are not crossed, but I will check.

Edit, red and blue are not crossed. My red wont even reach to the other port.

So if the blue does not flow, should I reverse pressure it with compressed air or fuel/solvent?

I watched a video of a unit being rebuilt and it looks easy. But I can't find a rebuild kit. Anybody know where I can get one? I see rebuilt units are $500, so if all else fails, that will be an option.
It would go to ~90 psi (pump/system pressure), if the engine is not running and the Green is 100% restricted.
Worth a try -- I'd remove the gas cap and see if air will blow into the tank.

If the Blue flows, I'd open the WUR/CPR up and see what is causing the problem, then decide.

There are kits on eBay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/0438140066-Warm-up-Regulator-Repair-Kit-Gasket-Set-de-Lorean-DMC-12-Wur-Warm-Up-/383747865088).
And some people are converting over to carbs/EFI and selling their K-Jet parts.
(Make sure that that the unit has vacuum ports for the delay valve.)

[Helirich]

Make sure the screen on the inlet to the WUR is clear. But when my WUR failed it read the same high pressure (same as primary pressure).

I removed all screens.


It would go to ~90 psi (pump/system pressure), if the engine is not running and the Green is 100% restricted.
Worth a try -- I'd remove the gas cap and see if air will blow into the tank.

If the Blue flows, I'd open the WUR/CPR up and see what is causing the problem, then decide.

There are kits on eBay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/0438140066-Warm-up-Regulator-Repair-Kit-Gasket-Set-de-Lorean-DMC-12-Wur-Warm-Up-/383747865088).
And some people are converting over to carbs/EFI and selling their K-Jet parts.
(Make sure that that the unit has vacuum ports for the delay valve.)

So I tried the test and the blue does not flow. I removed both lines and tried compressed air through it. First it would not flow the air either way. But then it finally did flow air both ways.

I hooked it all back up and drove the car around. It still is not driving right. No power and backfires. I need to hook the pressure Gage back up. I'm having problems with the gauge kit. The fittings are all China junk that leaks. I guess I shouldn't have bought off eBay.

[Helirich]

Things are getting really weird.

So I hooked the pressure gauge back up and it has 58 psi primary now. The control is only slightly less. I wonder what changed. I inserted two thick washers to raise the primary pressure and they did nothing. I was thinking the fuel pump couldn't go more, so I checked its pressure right at the main line from the filter. (88 psi)

I pulled the return line off the control pressure regulator to see if it bleeds off some fuel and it does slightly. I still think it is not working right, but the primary pressure is my main concern right now. I allready installed new o-rings on the pressure control. Maybe they got damaged. I did buy two o-ring kits for it, so maybe I'll do them again.

So I'm kind of at a loss.

[Ron]

While you are in there, you might want to remove the two thick washers you added and add a thin one, if any.

[Helirich]

While you are in there, you might want to remove the two thick washers you added and add a thin one, if any.

Yea, I intend to. Obviously, there is something amiss. (Unrelated to shims)

[Ron]

Yep...my guess is the o-ring on the tip is cut or pinched. Happens a lot.

[Helirich]

Yep...my guess is the o-ring on the tip is cut or pinched. Happens a lot.

I pulled it out and both o-rings look perfect. I didn't pull it off the little cap, I guess I should. I don't see why extra shims have no effect. I tested the gauge against another and it is reading correct.

[mark w]

maybe my video will help? https://youtu.be/UERhdnmQm9k

[Helirich]

maybe my video will help? https://youtu.be/UERhdnmQm9k

That video would have been nice before I got into this. At this point I allready knew most of it by heart. There were two things of interest to me though.

1. You barely touched on the vacuum port on the control regulator. I believe you said that it enriches the fuel during high vacuum. (High throttle accompanied by resistance) This makes sense. I'm not sure, but it sounded like you were saying the vacuum is diverted to the vacuum advance after warmup. That doesn't seem right. It would seem like it should be an active system all the time. (Maybe I misunderstood)

2. You mentioned that you added shims to the PPR and had no effect. This is what I'm seeing and don't understand why. Yours was much closer to the spec, so maybe you didn't do anything. If you did adjust it, how much psi increase did you get for a givin thickness of shim?