EFI with Peugeot 604 manifold (fuel only)

[Tom_hd02]

I’m planning to do an EFI conversion on my 2.8 engine with a Peugeot 604 carb manifold. Fuel only (for now) controlled by megasquirt , keeping stock distributor and ignition ecu. Where do I get the vacuum advance for the distributor?

[dmc4087]

I’m planning to do an EFI conversion on my 2.8 engine with a Peugeot 604 carb manifold. Fuel only (for now) controlled by megasquirt , keeping stock distributor and ignition ecu. Where do I get the vacuum advance for the distributor?

Interested to follow this. Are you going for something like this?

https://www.demon-tweeks.com/us/webcon-retroject-efi-conversion-for-32-36-dgv-38-dgas-carburettors-webatb400/

[Tom_hd02]

Not quite. I'll be using a Jeep 4.0 throttle body with a fabricated elbow to attach the throttle body to the carb manifold.
It will be very similar to SpittyBug setup.
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I found these pictures on SpittyBug's EFI conversion post.

[FABombjoy]

I'm guessing that Jeep TB doesn't have a ported vacuum connection like original?

If not, and if you're using TPS, you could connect the stock solenoid to an unused Megasquirt output and open it around 3-5% throttle.

If you do use this approach, the OEM solenoid is electrically noisy and need one of the factory filter capacitors to be installed or a flyback diode.

[Tom_hd02]

The Jeep throttle body only has a manifold vacuum port, which is used for the MAP sensor that is attached to the TB. No ported vacuum.
Correct me if I’m wrong: I assume that the stock vacuum solenoid is connected to manifold vacuum, and it is normally closed, and opens when voltage is applied to the terminals.

[Bitsyncmaster]

The Jeep throttle body only has a manifold vacuum port, which is used for the MAP sensor that is attached to the TB. No ported vacuum.
Correct me if I’m wrong: I assume that the stock vacuum solenoid is connected to manifold vacuum, and it is normally closed, and opens when voltage is applied to the terminals.

The stock vacuum solenoid passes vacuum to advance when not powered. Power turns it off.

[Tom_hd02]

Thanks Dave,
Basically I need a solenoid that does exactly the opposite of the stock one, or send power to the stock vacuum solenoid at idle only.
This will only be a temporary solution until I get the distributor hooked up to the megasquirt.

[FABombjoy]

Thanks Dave,
Basically I need a solenoid that does exactly the opposite of the stock one, or send power to the stock vacuum solenoid at idle only.

You can do this in your programmable outputs using TPS as a condition.

[Josh]

Thanks Dave,
Basically I need a solenoid that does exactly the opposite of the stock one, or send power to the stock vacuum solenoid at idle only.
This will only be a temporary solution until I get the distributor hooked up to the megasquirt.

Like Luke said, get rid of the solenoid entirely. Use your I/O

[Bitsyncmaster]

Thanks Dave,
Basically I need a solenoid that does exactly the opposite of the stock one, or send power to the stock vacuum solenoid at idle only.
This will only be a temporary solution until I get the distributor hooked up to the megasquirt.

Come to think of it, you may be able to hose it up to the other port and get it to work as you need. Not sure if it would vent that way though. In normal operation on the advance side after it switches the vacuum off it vents so the advance is released.

[Tom_hd02]

EFI parts started arriving. Fuel injectors and fuel rails from DeLorean Industries. These injectors fit on the stock k-jet injectors bungs. That's a huge advantage. Now, I have to concentrate in adapting the throttle body to the intake manifold. The throttle body (Jeep 4.0 6cyl) has the IAC and the TPS.
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[Josh]

i have flat adapter plates to do this, but not an elbow.
Where did you get the idea to run a jeep TB? coincidence or read joes blog? I ran one on my 3.0 many years back and it worked very well.

[Tom_hd02]

I read Joe’s blog and consulted with him. BTW, excellent write up on his 3.0 EFI swap.
I thought about using a throttle body from a mid 2000’s Ford Taurus 3.0 V6, but the IAC valve installation would require extra fabrication. The Jeep IAC valve is already attached to the TB unit.

[Tom_hd02]

I'm trying to figure out how/where to install the coolant temp sensor (CLT). Many people removed the TTS and tap the adapter to 3/8" NPT.
Is the green vacuum switch (driver side of Y coolant pipe) 3/8" NPT? Or the other sensor opposite to it?
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[FABombjoy]

Vacuum switch has the same threading. Unscrew & replace.

[powerline84]

That's what I did

[Tom_hd02]

Perfect. That makes things easier. I will leave the TTS in place and I'll remove the vacuum switch and install the CLT sensor.
A local shop finished the throttle body-to-manifold adapter. I used a Jeep throttle body spacer, 2" aluminum elbow, and a Holley carburetor spacer. It came out really nice. All I have to do is remove the carburetor and install the TB adapter. I will still have the ability to switch back to a carburetor if I ever have to.
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[Josh]

I dont think those flanges are thick enough. LOL

[powerline84]

Built for a tank

[Tom_hd02]

Very thick indeed. I was thinking of shaving off at least 1/2 inch on each end.

[FABombjoy]

Future proofed for turbo - top end good for 1000psi :D

[NorthEastJBD]

Does anyone have a MS3 tune I can look at with both spark & injector tables?

I can't get my Idle down lower than 1300rpm. (with the idle valve plugged on the inlet)

Without plugging valve inlet it runs closer to 1900rpm.

Vacuum levels are around 35.

Any other thoughts are also welcome.

[dn010]

Difficult to help if we don't know what your setup is, give a few more details please. Have you checked the butterfly valve(s) on whatever throttle body you're using to be sure they're closing all the way?

[FABombjoy]

Are you running 13deg static at idle? There wasn't any follow-up on implementing control of the ignition advance solenoid.

If your distributor is seeing manifold vac at idle this would do it easily, and at about these RPMs.

[powerline84]

Check your email.

[Spittybug]

Perfect. That makes things easier. I will leave the TTS in place and I'll remove the vacuum switch and install the CLT sensor.
A local shop finished the throttle body-to-manifold adapter. I used a Jeep throttle body spacer, 2" aluminum elbow, and a Holley carburetor spacer. It came out really nice. All I have to do is remove the carburetor and install the TB adapter. I will still have the ability to switch back to a carburetor if I ever have to.
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Will that all still fit under the engine cover?

[Tom_hd02]

There’s about 2.5 inches of clearance between the top of the TB and the engine cover.

[Tom_hd02]

While waiting for parts to start my EFI conversion, this crazy idea came to my mind. I’m not an EFI expert, so any advice is welcomed. Theoretically, would it be possible to use a carburetor as a throttle body, just to provide air to the engine?
This is my reasoning:
- Fuel injectors provide fuel, controlled by megasquirt
- TPS is not necessary if using speed density (I could be wrong on this)
- The carburetor has a ported vacuum connection for vacuum advance
- diyautotune has a custom Idle Air Control body that uses a Jeep stepper iac motor, controlled by megasquirt
- The carburetor is dual barrel; each venturi is 1.08” (Jeep 4.0 TB is 55mm diameter)
- Intake manifold provides manifold vacuum to megasquirt for the MAP sensor.

Is this possible, or it is time to stop drinking cheap booze?

[Josh]

You could, but it would be more work than just installing a throttle body. not really sure what the benefit is here.

Also a TPS should be used on any EFI implimentation. It is possible to run without one as seen in the miata community but it is just making your life more difficult for tuning and datalogging. The car will not run as well as one with a TPS as a result. No way to flood clear, tps boost control, table switching, etc.

[Tom_hd02]

You could, but it would be more work than just installing a throttle body. not really sure what the benefit is here.

Also a TPS should be used on any EFI implimentation. It is possible to run without one as seen in the miata community but it is just making your life more difficult for tuning and datalogging. The car will not run as well as one with a TPS as a result. No way to flood clear, tps boost control, table switching, etc.

Josh,

I'm currently running a carburetor with the peugeot manifold on my car. So as far as installation, I'd just have to remove the fuel lines and the mechanical fuel pump from the passenger side valve cover., and leave the carb in place.
I wasn't aware that you could use a TPS for other functions with the Speed Density algorithm. Thanks for the info.

[FABombjoy]

Removing TPS would be like removing the accel pump from a carb. You can tune acceleration enrichment from MAP changes alone but any real heavy transients may bog. It's actually not needed with SD but 100% required on alpha-n.

Consider TPS a gauge of 'drivers intention' rather than just the throttle angle and the benefits w/ EFI come out a bit more:

-Driver intends to sit at a stoplight, or cruise (engine states)
-Driver intends to coast down this hill in gear, no longer a need for any fuel (engine states)
-Driver intends to pass slowly (engine states, acceleration enrichment)
-Driver intends to pass aggressively (engine states, acceleration enrichment, fuel table switch, disable AC compressor)
-Driver intends to run more boost than they should on a stock motor (boost target switching, methanol injection trigger)

Plus looking at data logs later w/out TPS is a bit frustrating as you may wonder what was going on at certain times.

[Josh]

You already have your elbow to bolt up the jeep TB, that would be the easiest and most proper route unless im missing something.

[Tom_hd02]

@Luke, I didn't know that a TPS played such important role in tuning, even with speed density. I was based off several EFI conversions without TPS, and some people strongly recommend not using TPS. I guess I will be using one.

@Josh, My only issue with using the Jeep TB is trying to figure out how to connect the throttle cable to the TB, which is wayyyyy easier than installing a TPS on a carburetor. The plan stays the same. I'll be using the Jeep TB.

[Josh]

Id like to hear their argument about not using TPS. I cant imagine why this would be anyone's preference, more of a compromise.

When I used the Jeep TB (and others) I drilled a hole near the head of a bolt to slide the cable through and threaded a nut on the other side to "clamp" the cable. If you go to a bicycle shop they should have something like this already. Used the stock delorean housing and cable. You may need something longer If you cut yours down, you can buy the assembly from a DMC vendor. It is fairly expensive so I use bicycle brake cable housing (sold by the foot) and a rear brake cable from a tandem disc brake equipped bicycle.

[Tom_hd02]

Made some progress this week. Installed the following parts:
-DPI fuel pump and fuel sender module
-Stock fuel filter with -6AN adapter fitting
-Fuel rails
-Fuel injectors
-Fuel pressure regulator
-Throttle body
-Fuel lines

I hope to get the engine running this weekend.66753

[Tom_hd02]

All EFI parts installed. The engine runs like a champ. Next stop: spark advance controlled by MS2.

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[dmc4087]

Great job! What did you do for the crank ventilation, its hard to tell in the pic

[Tom_hd02]

I will install a 5/8" breather filter to one side of the oil cap (not shown in the picture). The other side of the oil cap is connected to a PCV valve; the other side of the pcv is connected to manifold vacuum.
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