Alternator Not Charging Battery

[Midnight Specialist]

I recently got my car back from being in the shop for three weeks for replacing the fuel lines and coil overs. After picking up the car the battery light illuminate in ignition position 2 when starting I also get 5 beeps from Dave McKeen’s otterstat indicating it’s not charging.

It’s a new alternator from DPI put on in feb. it was working when the car went into the shop. They didn’t do anything to the alternator, except put a Alternator Tensioner on it (https://www.deloreandirectory.com/maintenance/delorean-alternator-tensioner/). I did notice there was some coolant on the top of the alternator from the coolant line above it. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210625/bf36aa8a8f8d14bbd09ef3dbd0611891.jpg


The bulb in the warning light was replaced with an incandescent bulb in July when I replaced the other bulbs with LEDs.

Any one got any ideas on why it’s not charging?


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[CFI]

Incorrect tension on the belt?

[Michael]

You need to put a multi meter on the alternator and battery to determine if it's truly the alternator, a break in the charge circut(possibly a wire knocked loose or damaged from the shop) or maybe the dash gauge is just lying to you. Without that info, you are just shooting in the dark blaming the alternator.

[Midnight Specialist]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210625/ff33bd6d1649c2d07c46fd6ad4706828.jpg
Only blame the alternator because it is not charging based on the dash gauge. Also we ran a multi meter on the battery; no charge.

If the battery light is not coming on when the key is on position 2 along with the oil light, would that be the reason the alternator might not be charging the battery?

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[Michael]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210625/ff33bd6d1649c2d07c46fd6ad4706828.jpg
Only blame the alternator because it is not charging based on the dash gauge. Also we ran a multi meter on the battery; no charge.

If the battery light is not coming on when the key is on position 2 along with the oil light, would that be the reason the alternator might not be charging the battery?

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If the battery light isn't coming on, then yes you are not charging. The volt gauge reads battery voltage only. It has no idea nor does it care what the alternator is doing. Like I said, you gotta test but based on this new info, start at the bulb....actually look at the back of the alternator and see if the pigtail is secure and intact. If they were doing suspension work, they may have knocked something loose.

[Bitsyncmaster]

A broken charge light circuit could be at the bulkhead connector or the instrument cluster. The connectors at the cluster are often bad after it has been removed. I would start by pulling and installing the bulkhead connectors. Doing that often cleans the pins up a little.

[Ron]

After picking up the car the battery light illuminate in ignition position 2 when starting ...Assuming you meant to say, "... the battery light does not illuminate in position 2...".


If the battery light isn't coming on, then yes you are not charging. The volt gauge reads battery voltage only. It has no idea nor does it care what the alternator is doing. Like I said, you gotta test but based on this new info, start at the bulb....actually look at the back of the alternator and see if the pigtail is secure and intact. If they were doing suspension work, they may have knocked something loose.FWIW, since a mutimeter is reading low voltage, it's probably not the case here, but it is possible for the light to never come on and the regulator kick in (self energizing regulator, high rev, etc). The battery, alternator and gauge are wired in parallel, so the gauge reads both (together), not caring/knowing where the power comes from.

=====

I agree that the place to start is the bulb's circuit: Turn the key to position 2 ('RUN' -- Don't start the engine), disconnect the pigtail (Brown with Yellow stripe wire) and tap it to ground (the alternator's casing is a good place). If this makes the light come on, the circuit is OK. If the main terminal reads 12V also, the unit is bad.

[dmcman73]

Have you checked the crimp that splices the GM pig tail to the Delorean wire harness at the Alternator? That butt connector could have come loose or knocked around, that would cause an issue as well.

[JohnnyK]

Start the car and start reading voltage directly at the alternator.

Give 12v directly to the exciter circuit of the alternator and see if it starts charging. (Assuming you aren't reading a charge voltage from the above step)

(Never have worked on a stock alternator, but according to the schematic it appears to have an exciter circuit, so the above test should be pretty failproof).

[Midnight Specialist]

So I changed out the bulb and cleaned the bulkhead connectors with contact cleaner. No light and not turning over now.


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[Midnight Specialist]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210625/f97a9abb47ec3d9f2fbe33086437db6d.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210625/344a1b08544c3098c59af01db7416512.jpg


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[Helirich]

If you don't see any obvious connection problems, I would pull the alternator and have it tested. Not unusual for a newer alternator to go bad.

[FABombjoy]

Have you checked the crimp that splices the GM pig tail to the Delorean wire harness at the Alternator?
This is a 30 second check from the ground and given the service history the likely source.

Either the splice or the connector at the alternator. Plug/unplug and tug the splices.

[cdrusn]

+1 on removing alternator and taking it in to your nearest auto parts store for a free test. Rules out the most obvious fault then you can look to other
more exotic reasons for no charge condition. You need to charge up the battery now so take it with you for the free charge at Auto Zone, Oreilly or Advance Auto.

[Ron]

Since the light never comes on, it makes no sense to pull the alternator without grounding the Brown/Yellow wire and seeing if it comes on, first.

[Helirich]

Since the light never comes on, it makes no sense to pull the alternator without grounding the Brown/Yellow wire and seeing if it comes on, first.

The second sentence in the thread says the light comes on.

Edit, Ah, I see you allready saw that and corrected him. I'm not sure he has confirmed that.

[Midnight Specialist]

Thanks for all the help. I spoke with Josh from DPI and seems the alternator is at fault. After a continuity with the alternator and the bulls head connector, it seems that the alternator might have been damaged when the battery was recharged.


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[Ron]

The second sentence in the thread says the light comes on.

Edit, Ah, I see you allready saw that and corrected him. I'm not sure he has confirmed that.He did, in post 4, 10 and a pic in 11.
Anywaaay, it's a minute versus an hour....and he's got it covered now.


Thanks for all the help. I spoke with Josh from DPI and seems the alternator is at fault. After a continuity with the alternator and the bulls head connector, it seems that the alternator might have been damaged when the battery was recharged.That happens a lot (with jumps).
If that shop (or whoever) will not take care of it, there's a ~95% chance that all it needs is a regulator.

[dmcman73]

Thanks for all the help. I spoke with Josh from DPI and seems the alternator is at fault. After a continuity with the alternator and the bulls head connector, it seems that the alternator might have been damaged when the battery was recharged.


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If the alternator is bad and the warranty for a replacement ran out or is null, do yourself a favor and go to your local Autozone and pick up an alternator from a 1994 Chevy Camaro with a 3.4 engine. I'm all for supporting the vendors but when it comes to the starter and alternator, you can't beat a local parts place that offers a lifetime warranty on them.

If you have DPI's new billet Alternator bracket, you may get away with the alternator being a drop in, I believe he makes the mounting point on it longer to fit the aftermarket alternators. If not, you'll need a 1/2 inch spacer to go between the alternator and bracket:

66635

[Michael]

Personally I am in favor of having them rebuilt locally. After my last(and 3rd or 4th total) alternator took a dump, and for 10 years of seeing less than stellar voltage and charge rates, I had mine rebuilt by a shop that has done nothing but starters and alternators for the last 25 years.

Upon installation I was thrilled to see a solid 14+ volts at idle on my gauge. Something I had not seen in a decade.

If you do go down that path, make sure it's a good shop that will redo the windings rather than just dip them.

[Helirich]

Personally I am in favor of having them rebuilt locally. After my last(and 3rd or 4th total) alternator took a dump, and for 10 years of seeing less than stellar voltage and charge rates, I had mine rebuilt by a shop that has done nothing but starters and alternators for the last 25 years.

Upon installation I was thrilled to see a solid 14+ volts at idle on my gauge. Something I had not seen in a decade.

If you do go down that path, make sure it's a good shop that will redo the windings rather than just dip them.

This is excellent advice if you have a shop like that. Around here they have all gone away. (Like machine shops) I fear the knowledge is going away to.

[painterdave72]

i rebuilt my hervey cs130 last year with a high amp kit...

[Midnight Specialist]

If the alternator is bad and the warranty for a replacement ran out or is null, do yourself a favor and go to your local Autozone and pick up an alternator from a 1994 Chevy Camaro with a 3.4 engine. I'm all for supporting the vendors but when it comes to the starter and alternator, you can't beat a local parts place that offers a lifetime warranty on them.

If you have DPI's new billet Alternator bracket, you may get away with the alternator being a drop in, I believe he makes the mounting point on it longer to fit the aftermarket alternators. If not, you'll need a 1/2 inch spacer to go between the alternator and bracket:

66635

Did you swap out the pulley on that alternator or use the one in the pic?

[Chris 16409]

You need to install a V-Belt pulley on the Camaro alternator. If you don't have one or want a new one, I like this aluminum pulley from Summit Racing (March 131).

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mch-131

[Midnight Specialist]

I put a new alternator in and tested it with the multimeter. I got 13.47 volts. I took it on the road and after a half mile, volts dropped and battery light came on. The battery light works now and the multimeter is showing 12.50 now with the car running. Any ideas?


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[Ron]

Odds are you got a bad one.

Can you post a pic of how it is wired?

[Midnight Specialist]

This is the wiring. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210629/3886b16f38de20e8f6abe3986c9e6f99.jpg


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[Midnight Specialist]

And the tensioner. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210629/0af8aa59d7cda2cc0c5e72e49bee1792.jpg


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[Michael]

And the tensioner. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210629/0af8aa59d7cda2cc0c5e72e49bee1792.jpg


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Probably not related but the belt looks like it's rubbing something. Maybe hitting a bolt or pulleys are slightly out of alignment or one has a very deep groove?

[Midnight Specialist]

That’s just the angle. Nothing is rubbing the belt.


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[Helirich]

Odds are you got a bad one.

Can you post a pic of how it is wired?

This! I've seen this happen a lot. If you had wired it wrong, it probably would have failed right away.

I've heard that Autozone, Advanced Auto and Orielies all buy components that won't pass the big three automakers tests. They still work and sometimes they work for many years. But there never as good as the ones that pass the more rigorous tests. That's why it seems like new cars components last. (This is true of starters, AC components and other stuff)

Of course you get the lifetime warranty. I understand they bank on you getting rid of the car before it fails.

[Ron]

This is the wiring.
Does the pigtail (small brown wire) eventually connect to a brown with yellow stripe wire in the harness. If so, I'd put money on it being a bad alternator.

...Did you ever tap the brown with yellow stripe wire on ground to see if the battery light goes on and off (key on)?

[Midnight Specialist]

I added a ground. After adding the ground it started and started charging 14.5 volts. Then 3 min later, same thing. No charge. Battery light on. I then grinded off some of the coating on the back of the bracket and sides where it attaches to the engine block and alternator. I even put the original tensioner back on. Same thing. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210630/c1e53a53e83f72e0c89e03d59f335080.jpg


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[Helirich]

Now it sounds heat related. Can't say I've heard of that.

[Midnight Specialist]

It’s not a hot engine at all.


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[Midnight Specialist]

I had the brand new alternator tested and this one failed as well. Is there something in the electrical system that could kill alternators?


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[WHO1DMC]

I had the brand new alternator tested and this one failed as well. Is there something in the electrical system that could kill alternators?


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It's rare but a bad battery can do this. Testing with a multimeter will not detect this problem.



Dave B.

[Midnight Specialist]

As rare as getting a bad alternator from the vendor? With my luck it might be. Going to have o’reily test it tomorrow


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[Midnight Specialist]

I think I figured it out. There is no ground to the alternator. I had the shop swap out my tensioner with the one shown. What I didn’t know was the rod ends “Made of stainless steel, these rod ends provide excellent corrosion resistance. A PTFE liner allows smooth ball rotation and eliminates the need for lubrication.”

That teflon liner is acting as an insulator. The DPI bracket is coated and also acting as an insulator.

Not knowing this I must have fried the replacement. Another one is coming in and I have removed the coating on the bracket where it connects to the engine and the alternator. I will also use the ground wire.


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[Delorean Industries]

No need to grind on the billet aluminum bracket. Just run the jumper wire if you are going to continue using the rod end tensioner. Other wise with the supplied stainless tensioner in the kit all will be good. Haven't posted on this thread but have been dealing with midnight directly to find the grounding issue and working on getting warranty units back and forth.

We are updating our directions with additional warnings regarding discharged batteries and the risk of adding in components not included with the kit. IE different tensioners in this case was enough to cause an issue. As a margin of safety we will also be including updated grounding components to mitigate poor negative earth issues common on the cars. This will prevent damaging regulators if engine mount grounds and so on are not clean enough. Essentially the failures occur from a lack of ground for the circuit. Adding the grounding after the fact is not enough as the damage is normally done.

As a test we were able to take a brand new unit and cause a fault this morning by reducing the grounding. The alternator failed after just a few miles.

[Midnight Specialist]

No grinding then. Just grounding strap


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[Midnight Specialist]

Also DeLorean Performance has been amazing through this whole process.


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[Ron]

... disconnect the pigtail (Brown with Yellow stripe wire) and tap it to ground (the alternator's casing is a good place).


Since the light never comes on, it makes no sense to pull the alternator without grounding the Brown/Yellow wire and seeing if it comes on, first.


...Did you ever tap the brown with yellow stripe wire on ground to see if the battery light goes on and off (key on)?


I think I figured it out. There is no ground to the alternator.
:banghead:

[JohnnyK]

:rofl:

[Helirich]

:banghead:

Give that man a cigar!

[dmcman73]

I actually responded to your Facebook post about this issue stating if the HEIM Joints in the tensioner had teflon inserts in them, they would prevent a ground, glad that this was the issue.

[Ron]

I actually responded to your Facebook post about this issue stating if the HEIM Joints in the tensioner had teflon inserts in them, they would prevent a ground, glad that this was the issue.
...assuming the block was grounded, the bracket should have grounded it.

50/50 it's not over...

[dmcman73]

...assuming the block was grounded, the bracket should have grounded it.

50/50 it's not over...

The DPI bracket he was using was anodized which basically has the same characteristics of corrosion on a contact so the ground would have been poor. Add the Teflon "insulators" in the Heim joints and you have a ton of resistance to ground causing a ton of issues.

[Bitsyncmaster]

...assuming the block was grounded, the bracket should have grounded it.

50/50 it's not over...

I was just thinking the same. I run that tensioner and have no problems.

[Ron]

The DPI bracket he was using was anodized which basically has the same characteristics of corrosion on a contact so the ground would have been poor. Add the Teflon "insulators" in the Heim joints and you have a ton of resistance to ground causing a ton of issues.
Ah, didn't know that...I'll go 90/10 then. :smile:

[Bitsyncmaster]

Ah, didn't know that...I'll go 90/10 then. :smile:

Yes an anodized coating could insulate the contact point.

[Ron]

Yes an anodized coating could insulate the contact point.Sorry, I meant that I didn't catch that it was anodized...I must of breezed over that and dismissed it when Josh said grinding wasn't needed (with jumper, I now see). My mistake.
If the battery is connected last, I'll go 99% :deviltail:

[Delorean Industries]

Due to the increased number of owners deciding to implement questionable components with our complete kit offerings a few full proof changes are being made. In the case of this product we are going to start installing the ground strap for the alternator onto the unit with thread locker. This way the strap is already hanging there ready to be hooked up to valve cover upper muffler bracket mounting bolt. We will still caution against running other tensioners and the risk of lined rod ends in the updated instructions. At the end of the day we can only inform owners as much as possible in an attempt to avoid situations.

[David T]

Alternators are one of the most returned parts for the vendors. Too often the problem is within the car itself but the customer blames the alternator. Between that and not installing it properly, alternators have a high return rate. Many owners do not take the time to diagnose and troubleshoot the electrical system and instead go right for the alternator. While in many cases the alternator may actually be bad, something in the car caused it to fail and then kills the replacement.

[dmcman73]

I went over this with the OP on facebook helping him trouble shoot it down to the heim joint tensioners having teflon inserts on the heim joints themselves creating an insulation to ground.

Now, the kit that DPI sells has a solid metal tensioner bracket which completes a very good ground to the block, very much as Matt's improved tensioner does. DPI isn't at fault for this issue, they do not have control over what owners will do in modifying their full kit offering. Also, if you ever remove the original cast bracket from the engine, you'll find a TON of rust between it and the block making a very unreliable ground connection (Dave Swingle has even suggested on here to remove it and clean it), it isn't a very reliable ground since there are way to many components that can rust and create resistance between the devices, this is a very common issue with a lot of classic cars. If someone who is running the original bracket on their car that had rust between the alternator bracket and block causing a very poor ground then installs the heim joint turnbuckle tensioner, they would probably experience the same issue.

It's not uncommon to see classic cars that were restored to have ground straps coming off the alternator casing. Where the other end ties to (direct to engine block, frame, battery, etc) is debatable. But if it were me, I would tie it off at the frame where the battery cable goes and another from that same point on the frame to the engine block (have you ever looked at the braided ground strap from block to engine mount?).

BTW, I have Matt's stainless tensioner on my car. When I removed the alternator and bracket to install the DPI exhaust and reroute wires, there was a ton of rust between the mounting bracket and block, BUT....my voltage has always been above 13V on my dash even with everything turned on and sitting at idle.

Just my 2 cents.

[Ron]

I went over this with the OP on facebook helping him trouble shoot it down to the heim joint tensioners having teflon inserts on the heim joints themselves creating an insulation to ground.

Now, the kit that DPI sells has a solid metal tensioner bracket which completes a very good ground to the block, very much as Matt's improved tensioner does. DPI isn't at fault for this issue, they do not have control over what owners will do in modifying their full kit offering. Also, if you ever remove the original cast bracket from the engine, you'll find a TON of rust between it and the block making a very unreliable ground connection (Dave Swingle has even suggested on here to remove it and clean it), it isn't a very reliable ground since there are way to many components that can rust and create resistance between the devices, this is a very common issue with a lot of classic cars. If someone who is running the original bracket on their car that had rust between the alternator bracket and block causing a very poor ground then installs the heim joint turnbuckle tensioner, they would probably experience the same issue.

It's not uncommon to see classic cars that were restored to have ground straps coming off the alternator casing. Where the other end ties to (direct to engine block, frame, battery, etc) is debatable. But if it were me, I would tie it off at the frame where the battery cable goes and another from that same point on the frame to the engine block (have you ever looked at the braided ground strap from block to engine mount?).

BTW, I have Matt's stainless tensioner on my car. When I removed the alternator and bracket to install the DPI exhaust and reroute wires, there was a ton of rust between the mounting bracket and block, BUT....my voltage has always been above 13V on my dash even with everything turned on and sitting at idle.

Just my 2 cents.I'm with you 100% here.
(Yes, that is exactly what I did with the braided straps when I restored 1669...but then it got a stage 2 engine, using the stock configuration...but I expect it will last another 40 years w/o problems ;-)