Delorean Motor Company (DMC) Texas threatening to sue Delorean owners now

[EngineerGuY]

I was shown a cease and desist from a friend who owns a delorean rental website that they are now threatening legal action against anyone with the name "delorean" in the domain name as trademark! This is going to cause a HUGE stink in the community I think! There are a LOT of websites that use the name for rentals, parts, and even just community forums. Pretty bad on their part as most of these guys, including my friend, bring a LOT of positive awareness with renting out their cars for events and such. He's now consulting an attorney but doesn't seem like anyone in the community can help. Anyone here have any suggestions, as this may set a precedent for everyone moving forward.

[Michael]

I doubt that using the name "DeLorean" comes anywhere near trademark infringement but DMCH can send cease and desist letters out all day long. Costs them nothing more than postage and 90% of the time it works.

I suggest contacting a lawyer


And if this is true then to DMCH...FUCK YOU!

[camaro430sut]

I donno, is your buddy renting reliant robins?

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[EngineerGuY]

I donno, is your buddy renting reliant robins?

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

hahahaha no, that guy deserves to get sued, claiming to be John D's son and using their official name and logo!! ZERO delorean rental websites use ANY delorean trademarks or logos, they all have their own. Only thing used is the "Delorean" in the domain. All state they aren't affiliated with DMC. RentDelorean, DeloreanRental, RentTheDelorean, DeloreanRide, DeloreaMarketplace, DeloreanIndustries, DeloreanMidWest, all use delorean in the domain, and most of all of them use their own logos. DeloreanMidwest uses exact delorean logos and aren't affiliated with Delorean, they are a midwest group. It's very strange that DMC would try and do something like this.

[Michael]

I honestly don't see DMCH doing this. I suspect a troll...but wouldn't put it past DMCH.

[EngineerGuY]

I honestly don't see DMCH doing this. I suspect a troll...but wouldn't put it past DMCH.

I've seen the letter sent, it's the real deal from Gordon & Rees LLP, who represent DMC Texas. This is no troll job, they are literally asking to cease all website, social media and much more. It's beyond insane.

[Michael]

In that case my original reply stands..

Will I get a C&D because my car says "DeLorean"?

Will Deloreango, DeLorean Industries, DeLorean FB groups get one?

What about other DeLorean sites that have nothing to do with the car?, like the rap artist(actually I wouldn't mind him getting one).

Does DMCH now own a word that is a part of the English language?

I have "DeLorean Gray" grout in my master bathroom. Will DMCH demand I cease and desist poops?

I'm going to copyright the word "The"...imagine all "the" money I could make from selling "the" usage rights for "the" word.

[Helirich]

but DMCH can send cease and desist letters out all day long. Costs them nothing more than postage and 90% of the time it works.

This!

Anybody can file a lawsuit for fairly cheap also, but getting to court is another thing. You have to bribe a judge pretty good for him not to throw it out.

[SonnyV]

This sounds like the ranting of that guy who got into it over watches and was banned from DMCH for sharing memes.

[David T]

Don't try to use common sense when it comes to the law. If DMCH doesn't send out the letters and try to defend their trademark someone could make the case that since they did not try to stop anyone, they should not be allowed to stop anyone. Disney does this all the time. Sending a letter is one thing, actually bringing a case against someone will cost a lot. I doubt they would do that unless someone is making enough money using the name to justify bringing a suit against them. In a lot of cases like this all they want is for you to sign a licensing agreement and pay a small fee if you are, in fact, making any money by using the trademark. That way they have control over who and how their trademark is used. For anyone who wants to fight this there is a good chance you would win, the name is so embedded into the culture. It would cost a fortune to do that which is why most people will either stop using the name or sign a licensing agreement. Does anyone think DMCH will get anything from Universal for the use of the name?

[EngineerGuY]

This!

Anybody can file a lawsuit for fairly cheap also, but getting to court is another thing. You have to bribe a judge pretty good for him not to throw it out.

Yes anyone can send off a C&D. In many cases is scares off people. In this case it seems like a pretty shitty thing to do. Many of these websites have been in service a long time and are VERY helpful to the Delorean community. He’s meeting with an attorney to see his options and send a reply back. Waste of money on both delorean and him

[Rich]

A question to the OP: Can you share the name of the business your friend runs? Not all businesses with "DeLorean" in their name infringe on DMC rights but some might.

DMC has the right and even the duty to police its intellectual property including a trademark or trade name. Without licensing or restricting the use by third parties DMC risks dilution of their mark or name. Eventually the mark or name can become unenforceable because it's essentially been abandoned by its owner.

At the same time folks who want to do business selling DeLorean parts/service or privately renting their D, even with some reference to a DeLorean, can do so freely as long as they follow the rules. Make sure the business name is clear of confusion with DMC's name or ask DMC if they're OK with a current or planned name for a business.

As David T says, Disney and others are very protective. So are the automotive OEMs.

As for our vendor community it is presumably not a problem. DPI, now known as DeLorean Industries, has a nice disclaimer (https://deloreanindustries.com/company-policies-overview/), for example. Other vendors may be using business and product names that don't infringe on DMC.

[SonnyV]

Does anyone think DMCH will get anything from Universal for the use of the name?

That was proven when Sally sued them. They do receive royalties from Universal for the DeLorean name and DMC logo. It's why you'll find most products labeled as "Back to the Future Time Machine" without a single utterance of "DMC" or "DeLorean" on the box or the product itself.

[EngineerGuY]

A question to the OP: Can you share the name of the business your friend runs? Not all businesses with "DeLorean" in their name infringe on DMC rights but some might.

DMC has the right and even the duty to police its intellectual property including a trademark or trade name. Without licensing or restricting the use by third parties DMC risks dilution of their mark or name. Eventually the mark or name can become unenforceable because it's essentially been abandoned by its owner.

At the same time folks who want to do business selling DeLorean parts/service or privately renting their D, even with some reference to a DeLorean, can do so freely as long as they follow the rules. Make sure the business name is clear of confusion with DMC's name or ask DMC if they're OK with a current or planned name for a business.

As David T says, Disney and others are very protective. So are the automotive OEMs.

As for our vendor community it is presumably not a problem. DPI, now known as DeLorean Industries, has a nice disclaimer (https://deloreanindustries.com/company-policies-overview/), for example. Other vendors may be using business and product names that don't infringe on DMC.

It’s one of these rental pages, “RentDelorean, DeloreanRental, RentTheDelorean”. I’m told they’re all likely to get the C&D. Regardless, they all have the disclaimers stating they’re not affiliated with DMC, don’t use delorean logos and would never be confused with DMC.

[dtavres]

HA!! I LOVE IT!!! I SOOOO hope I get a C&D for www.DeLoreanDirectory.com and www.DeLoreanTalk.com and www.DeLoreanMarketplace.com - I will post the letter all over the web and talk about it on EVERY episode of DeLorean Talk!

Hey FAKE DMC... where's my letter?!

(Incidentally, if anyone has a C&D from Fake DMC that they want to share, PLEASE email it to [email protected])

[EngineerGuY]

HA!! I LOVE IT!!! I SOOOO hope I get a C&D for www.DeLoreanDirectory.com and www.DeLoreanTalk.com and www.DeLoreanMarketplace.com - I will post the letter all over the web and talk about it on EVERY episode of DeLorean Talk!

Hey FAKE DMC... where's my letter?!

(Incidentally, if anyone has a C&D from Fake DMC that they want to share, PLEASE email it to [email protected])


Here is the letter with a few things redacted that have the persons name, I was given permission to post. It's legit. They've now given him until 25th to respond to all their demands. Unbelievable. They mentioned to him also about other websites using the name "Delorean" in their domain on a brief phone call that are likely getting one in the coming month as well. I emailed you a better version that is clear to read.

68073
68074
68075

[steve]

Virginia has the Delorean's 80 rock band will they get one?

[EngineerGuY]

Does anyone have any contacts at DMC Texas such as James Espey that can get this thing squashed?? This is a potential huge black eye for the community should this gain traction.

[dtavres]

Does anyone have any contacts at DMC Texas such as James Espey that can get this thing squashed?? This is a potential huge black eye for the community should this gain traction.

lol... Fake DMC are the ones who sent this letter! They are doing their best to take ownership of OUR cars.

And the black eye isn't for the community - it's for Fake DMC. Which they richly deserve.

[Malevy]

It is as if someone warned about this 20 years ago... and they all laughed!

I'd be willing to bet that at this point the company in Texas makes more money from "licensing" than they do from parts and repair... All because they were the first to register intellectual property they never owned.

[David T]

This isn't all bad. If it helps to keep DMCH solvent and they can service the Delorean community with parts then it is a good thing. Just what do you think will happen if DMCH was to go out of business?

[EngineerGuY]

It is as if someone warned about this 20 years ago... and they all laughed!

I'd be willing to bet that at this point the company in Texas makes more money from "licensing" than they do from parts and repair... All because they were the first to register intellectual property they never owned.

I think he'd be ok paying a small licensing fee of like $500 or something. It was never mentioned but perhaps he can offer that up in his reply. Depends on what his Attorney's advice as he did acquire one I believe.

[EngineerGuY]

This isn't all bad. If it helps to keep DMCH solvent and they can service the Delorean community with parts then it is a good thing. Just what do you think will happen if DMCH was to go out of business?

Bullying websites that have nothing to do with selling Deloreans or their parts is going too far. These small rental websites aren't promoting or selling cars, they are offering their personal Time Machine replicas for events. They are going too far.

[Michael]

This isn't all bad. If it helps to keep DMCH solvent and they can service the Delorean community with parts then it is a good thing. Just what do you think will happen if DMCH was to go out of business?

68077

Deloreango and DPI get all my business. I did order a book and model car from DMCH back around Thanksgiving so if DMCH went "belly up" I guess we would have a lot less Delorean branded shit to buy...which would mean some of the DeLorean Fanatics might save enough to buy an actual car.

[Helirich]

This isn't all bad. If it helps to keep DMCH solvent and they can service the Delorean community with parts then it is a good thing. Just what do you think will happen if DMCH was to go out of business?

Is DMC in financial trouble? I hadn’t heard that. If they were to fold, it would be a terrible blow to the community. I don’t really think this will help them though. As I said, I don’t think they have much hope in court. I was involved with a trademark dispute with Bell helicopter. There are some fairly specific guide lines that will keep you out of trouble. In my case, we busted them and had to back down. But without seeing the offending party’s ads, I think it’s unlikely there’s much of a case here. (I can’t read the attached letters)

[EngineerGuY]

Is DMC in financial trouble? I hadn’t heard that. If they were to fold, it would be a terrible blow to the community. I don’t really think this will help them though. As I said, I don’t think they have much hope in court. I was involved with a trademark dispute with Bell helicopter. There are some fairly specific guide lines that will keep you out of trouble. In my case, we busted them and had to back down. But without seeing the offending party’s ads, I think it’s unlikely there’s much of a case here. (I can’t read the attached letters)

The letter basically says you can't use the word " delorean" in any domain names because they own a trademark for the name. Even when websites are using it to promote their own Delorean Time Machines for rent. You can clearly see all the rental websites have nothing to do with Delorean, are not taking away from Delorean in anyway, and do not use their logos or trademarks. All the websites have a disclaimer stating such on the bottom as well. It's a bunch of crap from Delorean Texas.

[Malevy]

Is DMC in financial trouble? I hadn’t heard that. If they were to fold, it would be a terrible blow to the community. I don’t really think this will help them though. As I said, I don’t think they have much hope in court. I was involved with a trademark dispute with Bell helicopter. There are some fairly specific guide lines that will keep you out of trouble. In my case, we busted them and had to back down. But without seeing the offending party’s ads, I think it’s unlikely there’s much of a case here. (I can’t read the attached letters)

The reality of this situation is- all of the DMC Intellectual Property was "public domain" for 10+ years. Had someone taken this seriously 20 years ago when DMCH spent a few dollars to register with the USPTO, then we would not be where we are today. Unfortunately, a judge may see that DMCH has made investments in the IP for the last 20 years and rule in their favor. Not to mention, Sally Baldwin (DeLorean) "settled" with DMCH making their claim even stronger.

We won't know until a judge can see the evidence and decide... And I'd bet money that will never happen. No one is making enough money from using the IP from DMC (that DMCH claims to own) to fight the fight.

Will these disputes have an impact on the DMCH publicity? Yet to be seen, but so far it has not. And some say even bad press is good. DMCH and SW have played a very smart (and selfish) game WRT the IP so far.

[ssdelorean]

>>snip<<

Will these disputes have an impact on the DMCH publicity? Yet to be seen, but so far it has not. And some say even bad press is good. DMCH and SW have played a very smart (and selfish) game WRT the IP so far.

People have such short memories. Prime example: SonnyV vs. James Espey postings. or the next "new" DeLorean.
There will be sink here for a while and then disappear like a fart in the wind. Until the next fart happens.

[Malevy]

People have such short memories. Prime example: SonnyV vs. James Espey postings. or the next "new" DeLorean.
There will be sink here for a while and then disappear like a fart in the wind. Until the next fart happens.

Agreed.. But back when SonnyV happened (Recall, I am the guy who discovered and disclosed it) the community was a lot "smaller". We only had the DML. Now we have dozens of forums and information outlets. It may help extend the memories, but again I agree it will fade eventually.

[Helirich]

The reality of this situation is- all of the DMC Intellectual Property was "public domain" for 10+ years. Had someone taken this seriously 20 years ago when DMCH spent a few dollars to register with the USPTO, then we would not be where we are today. Unfortunately, a judge may see that DMCH has made investments in the IP for the last 20 years and rule in their favor. Not to mention, Sally Baldwin (DeLorean) "settled" with DMCH making their claim even stronger.

In my case, we hired a trademark lawyer. He said it comes down to few main things.

1. Is the name your using the same or close enough to be mistaken by the general public to be the same?

2. Are you in the same business or is your business likely to be misconstrued to be the same by the general public.

3. Would a failure of your product possibly hurt their business?

In our case, we spelled Bell, Belle, as in “southern belle”. That was not different enough. But the biggest problem was we made helicopter parts. If we made furniture, we would be fine, even if we spelled it Bell. Obviously, Bell had deep pockets and we changed our name.

In this case, I may not understand, but does DMCH rent cars? Are the ads such that people might think they are renting from DMCH? I donÂ’t see how identifying a car you rent as a Delorean (if it is) , can be a trademark infringement. Even if you were renting a Corvette and calling it a Delorean, I think your problem is fraud, not trademark infringement. I suppose a lawyer could argue that a break down of the rental car reflects on DMCH, but I think it would be a weak argument since there might not be a single part on the car from DMCH.

[EngineerGuY]

In my case, we hired a trademark lawyer. He said it comes down to few main things.

1. Is the name your using the same or close enough to be mistaken by the general public to be the same?

2. Are you in the same business or is your business likely to be misconstrued to be the same by the general public.

3. Would a failure of your product possibly hurt their business?

In our case, we spelled Bell, Belle, as in “southern belle”. That was not different enough. But the biggest problem was we made helicopter parts. If we made furniture, we would be fine, even if we spelled it Bell. Obviously, Bell had deep pockets and we changed our name.

In this case, I may not understand, but does DMCH rent cars? Are the ads such that people might think they are renting from DMCH? I donÂ’t see how identifying a car you rent as a Delorean (if it is) , can be a trademark infringement. Even if you were renting a Corvette and calling it a Delorean, I think your problem is fraud, not trademark infringement. I suppose a lawyer could argue that a break down of the rental car reflects on DMCH, but I think it would be a weak argument since there might not be a single part on the car from DMCH.


DMC has nothing to do with the renting of Time Machines, never have. No one would ever confuse the 2, as no logos are used or even similar to DMC. All rental websites have their own LLC's and have disclaimers stating they are not affiliated with Delorean Motor Company. They don't have much of a case from what I am hearing from others.

[JBaker4981]

Does anyone have any contacts at DMC Texas such as James Espey that can get this thing squashed?? This is a potential huge black eye for the community should this gain traction.

Jason, If this is real then I recommend calling Houston and put this to bed. Stop stirring the sh!t pot.

[dtavres]

Fake DMC is just bullying under the guise of 'protecting "their" brand. They didn't invent the DeLorean. They didn't build the DeLorean. They're just trying to capitalize on someone else's work - whether they paid to use the name or not.

If Fake DMC went out of business, I'm 100% sure they would sell the inventory to someone else. (Hopefully someone who WOULD actually service the DeLorean community properly.) They would not just sit on the inventory and keep it from owners.

Fake DMC's business plan is to build up the brand (that they didn't create) and sell it to a bigger company - THAT is why they are bullying DeLorean owners and small businesses that don't build cars.

And I'm quite sure SonnyV (james espey) is still on here lurking under different names. :)

[dtavres]

Jason, If this is real then I recommend calling Houston and put this to bed. Stop stirring the sh!t pot.

Once this becomes a legacy media and social media story, Fake DMC will look FAR worse for how they treat owners.

[Michael]

I still am having a hard time believing this is true or at least, the entirely of the complaint. I just can't wrap my head around people who have dedicated their business model (for the most part) of serving the owners and community, to just start going after individual owners over something that was obviously not intended to infringe on their trademark.

It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. How much money are other DeLorean branded parts sites siphoning away from them?...and this time machine rental guy is the guy they consider enemy#1...or is it just low hanging fruit? I seriously doubt that any calls to them will be answered or even publicly addressed. Not on this or any legal action past present or future.

None of this adds up.

[deloreanlvr]

DeloreanRental.com / Jason did indeed file a trademark with the US Patent Trademark Office...

https://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=login&p_lang=english&p_d=trmk
Select a "Basic Word Mark Search"
https://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=searchss&state=4805:wo4gm6.1.1
Type in "Delorean Rental" in the search term
and you'll find this result...
68080

Doing so obviously agitated the Delorean Motor Company leading to the cease and desist.
The trademark was abandoned on January 27th.

[dtavres]

I just can't wrap my head around people who have dedicated their business model (for the most part) of serving the owners and community

If this was the first instance, I'd agree with you, but Fake DMC Houston has a long history of bullying owners and small businesses. This is just the most recent one (that we're all aware of.)

My opinion is that Fake DMC does NOT care about the cars or the owners - they're just trying to build up their business so they can sell it.

Ask older owners about some of the stories... There was an owner years ago who had a custom muffler built for his DeLorean. Other owners loved it and asked where he had it done. The shop said they didn't want to do a bunch of one-offs, so the DeLorean owner ponied up the cash and had several made, so he could sell them to other DeLorean owners who wanted the muffler. Enter Fake DMC... They sent him a C&D. For something HE created and had built. It's plain 'ol bullying and intimidation.

I think that the only 'misappropriation' going on here, is Fake DMC trying to kill all "competition" (seriously? Fake DMC doesn't rent DeLoreans, and didn't build our cars.)

A Fake DMC owner once said to my face "Why should I care what you think? You haven't spent any money here in two years."

[JBaker4981]

Once this becomes a legacy media and social media story, Fake DMC will look FAR worse for how they treat owners.

If it is true, yes. What I also understand is that Jason has a long history of starting sh!t in order to monopolize the stupid DeLorean Time Machine Rental thing. This is why I said what I did and I will leave it at that.

[BLWNAWY]

If this was the first instance, I'd agree with you, but Fake DMC Houston has a long history of bullying owners and small businesses...
Ask older owners about some of the stories.
Remember that Stephen learned this stuff from the master. Way back in the late 80's ol' Ed Bernstein of DeLorean One, Stephen's former partner, sent me a similar Cease and Desist letter. I promptly told him where he could stick it, and never heard another word. There's a reason you don't see Ford, GM, Chrysler etc. trying this crap. It won't work, and will cause negative publicity.

Still lurking...

[Malevy]

Still lurking...


Ha! I was just thinking of you the other day.. Wondered how you were doing. Good to see you!

[Helirich]

Unlike some here, I don’t have a negative opinion of DMCH. I don’t mind them making decisions designed to make them money. (That is the purpose of business) I haven’t found them to be a problem when I need service. All that said, I don’t think this will go far, if it’s true.

[EngineerGuY]

Unlike some here, I don’t have a negative opinion of DMCH. I don’t mind them making decisions designed to make them money. (That is the purpose of business) I haven’t found them to be a problem when I need service. All that said, I don’t think this will go far, if it’s true.

I don't have anything bad to say about them aside from this incident.

[BLWNAWY]

Ha! I was just thinking of you the other day.. Wondered how you were doing. Good to see you!
Here every day, keeping you guys in line (?) and occasionally defending my legacy. At 72 I'm no longer into DeLoreans but am back to my roots building street rods, currently a '57 Dodge 2-door wagon with 2019 hemi, Chrysler 300 independent rear end and all the goodies. BLWNAWY is somewhere in the Seattle area but seldom seen. Hope you are doing well.

[AussieDMC]

DMC Texas are a business, therefore they are in this to make money. They are not a charity. They own the copyright to the name and logo, therefore have every right to defend it.
They bought those rights when nobody wanted them and have done very well out of it. All power to them.
Dave, you keep saying "fake" DMC. Where on their website does it say they are the original DeLorean Motor Company? I've owned my DeLorean for 20+ years and I have never heard
them claim to be the original company. You also say they want to build the company up to sell it for a profit. Even if this is true, so what? You want your business/es to make money, right?
So many people on here obviously have a huge axe to grind with DMC. I have done business with all the vendors over many years, I've never had a problem with DMC, certainly can't say that
about the others.

[dtavres]

They are called Fake DMC because they *ARE* pretending to be DMC, the company that invented, designed, built, and sold our DeLorean cars. Of course they aren't saying that they built the original cars, but they do everything they can to make people THINK they are the original company.

As for businesses making money - I'm a business person, and I whole-heartedly support companies making money. However, I'm also a huge customer service fanatic - and I have countless stories and some personal experiences with Fake DMC and their lack of customer service toward owners. They simply do NOT care about owner or the cars. When you have fewer than 4,500 of ANY specialty product in the world, you DO NOT piss off or offend the people who own those products - instead, you nurture the relationships and become part of the community. Fake DMC has failed wildly at that for many years. (UNLESS you have a huge wallet and you keep giving them cash.)

It's time the world learned about Fake DMC's awful customer service and lack of interest in our community. Owners need to support the few independent DeLorean shops out there who aren't under the thumb of Fake DMC. Here's a great list to start with: www.DeLoreanDirectory.com/service - these businesses CARE about us and our cars.

Here's the take away from this thread... Even Disney understands that they make MORE money by allowing fans to use their name (in domains names, websites, and custom made merchandise) because the fandom increases overall revenue and creates MORE fans. Fake DMC is trying to bully and intimate people and they aren't smart enough to recognize how badly their hurting the trademark they bought.

[AussieDMC]

Dave how are they pretending to be the original DMC? In the mid 90s they bought the rights to use the name and logo of a long defunct company. Nowhere on their website or in any of their communications do they claim to be the original company. If people wrongly assume they are then how is that their fault? I have never seen or heard them claim to be the original DMC. This notion that they are somehow wanting to pass themselves off as a continuation of the Belfast operation is complete nonsense. Its a shame you’ve had such bad experiences with them and obviously have a vendetta against DMC ,but my experiences have only been positive over many years.

[BladeBronson]

Even Disney understands that they make MORE money by allowing fans to use their name (in domains names, websites, and custom made merchandise)

Don’t you run mousemingle.com? Do you seriously think you’d get away with disneydating.com?

The attached screenshot is from a friend. The company he’s referring to is Disney.

68088

[dtavres]

Do you seriously think you’d get away with disneydating.com?

Actually, yes... Disney legal called me after Saturday Night Live made fun of MouseMingle... they didn't care about www.DateDisney.com or www.DisneylandRailroad.com or www.DisneySingles.com or www.BestOfDisneyAwards.com or www.TheDisneylandNews.com or www.WaltDisneysApartment.com or... (get it? Even Disney is GENERALLY okay with people who support their brand.)

Fake DMC doesn't care about the DeLorean community.

[BladeBronson]

they didn't care about www.DateDisney.com or www.DisneylandRailroad.com or www.DisneySingles.com or www.BestOfDisneyAwards.com or www.TheDisneylandNews.com or www.WaltDisneysApartment.com or...

Huh, that is really surprising. I wonder if it's because these redirect to properties named Mouse Mingle and Walt's Apartment. If you actually branded your site, "Disney Singles" and used that URL, the laywers on the next floor would probably handle you.

Back to DMC stuff... I get it, you don't like DMCH. It's pretty clear from this post (https://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?19246-Delorean-Motor-Company-(DMC)-Texas-threatening-to-sue-Delorean-owners-now&p=270363&viewfull=1#post270363) that you're going to flood the board with "Fake DMC" for some sort of SEO revenge. Please don't; it's just cringy.

FWIW, I've bought parts from them for over 20 years and have always experienced very professional service, accurate inventory, and excellent packaging and labeling. I'm no zealot or devotee though. They continue to earn my business.

[dmcman73]

Did anyone stop to think that "maybe" these C&D's are going out to line up with a possible lawsuit with "Ty"? I mean, if they went to court with this guy and they only sent him a C&D for using the Delorean name and no one else, it wouldn't look too good.

[louielouie2000]

I keep reading where folks are saying DMC Texas doesn't care about owners. In my 21 years (off and on) as a DeLorean owner, I've never experienced that. When I was purchasing my latest DeLorean last month I called DMC-Texas because I knew they performed extensive service on the car last year. Not only did Sarah explain the work they performed on the car, she walked me through the full inspection report line by line. All total I was on the phone with her for nearly an hour... not because I was peppering her with questions, but because she wanted to make sure she captured absolutely everything and I had a full understanding of the car. During the few conversations I had with her and James, never once did they try to upsell me on one of their cars or pressure me into using them for service. I can honestly say I don't think I've ever had a better customer service experience in my life. I've only ever had 100% positive experiences when ordering parts from them over the years, too.

That being said- do I agree with everything DMC-Texas has done? No... I have a distaste with much of their public relations pushes over the years (aka "new DeLoreans"), among other things. And while I don't care for naming themselves DMC, claiming copyrights, and going after those who infringe upon them... I also get it. They bought all the parts & the DeLorean name in the mid 90s when the cars were a joke in the collector world and the cars were worth nothing. Kinda like how some artists/bands put out eponymous/self-titled albums, DMC-Texas was basically letting the world know that by buying all the parts from KAPAC, they were starting a new era for the marque. In the ensuing 25 years they have had countless parts reproduced or reengineered/improved. They rolled out numerous performance upgrades to the cars years before anyone else. I can't imagine they'd be able to do all of that just by selling parts & service alone (even if they did get the deal of the century while buying the parts). Given how small the DeLorean community is, it's pretty amazing all DMC-Texas has been able to pull off. They've stayed in business for 25 years through shrewd (if controversial) means; the original company didn't even produce cars for 25 months.

So while yes, some of their shorter term actions have appeared unfortunate at times, DMC-Texas has been a pretty fierce guardian of the marque for a very long time. All of their publicity, trinkets, marketing, performance parts, etc have helped keep a car that has been dead for four decades very much alive in the consciousness of the average person. What would have happened if the parts were scattered to the wind 25 years ago; sold off piecemeal to various companies with no stake in the game? I think DMC-Texas efforts are largely responsible for making the car such a hot collectible today.

[EngineerGuY]

I keep reading where folks are saying DMC Texas doesn't care about owners. In my 21 years (off and on) as a DeLorean owner, I've never experienced that. When I was purchasing my latest DeLorean last month I called DMC-Texas because I knew they performed extensive service on the car last year. Not only did Sarah explain the work they performed on the car, she walked me through the full inspection report line by line. All total I was on the phone with her for nearly an hour... not because I was peppering her with questions, but because she wanted to make sure she captured absolutely everything and I had a full understanding of the car. During the few conversations I had with her and James, never once did they try to upsell me on one of their cars or pressure me into using them for service. I can honestly say I don't think I've ever had a better customer service experience in my life. I've only ever had 100% positive experiences when ordering parts from them over the years, too.

That being said- do I agree with everything DMC-Texas has done? No... I have a distaste with much of their public relations pushes over the years (aka "new DeLoreans"), among other things. And while I don't care for naming themselves DMC, claiming copyrights, and going after those who infringe upon them... I also get it. They bought all the parts & the DeLorean name in the mid 90s when the cars were a joke in the collector world and the cars were worth nothing. Kinda like how some artists/bands put out eponymous/self-titled albums, DMC-Texas was basically letting the world know that by buying all the parts from KAPAC, they were starting a new era for the marque. In the ensuing 25 years they have had countless parts reproduced or reengineered/improved. They rolled out numerous performance upgrades to the cars years before anyone else. I can't imagine they'd be able to do all of that just by selling parts & service alone (even if they did get the deal of the century while buying the parts). Given how small the DeLorean community is, it's pretty amazing all DMC-Texas has been able to pull off. They've stayed in business for 25 years through shrewd (if controversial) means; the original company didn't even produce cars for 25 months.

So while yes, some of their shorter term actions have appeared unfortunate at times, DMC-Texas has been a pretty fierce guardian of the marque for a very long time. All of their publicity, trinkets, marketing, performance parts, etc have helped keep a car that has been dead for four decades very much alive in the consciousness of the average person. What would have happened if the parts were scattered to the wind 25 years ago; sold off piecemeal to various companies with no stake in the game? I think DMC-Texas efforts are largely responsible for making the car such a hot collectible today.

Can't disagree with you there. I think by in large, DMC Texas has been fantastic, I don't have any BIG issues, aside from this, as it would set a precedent moving forward in a negative manner towards ALL websites that have "delorean" in the name.

[DaraSue]

This kind of thing isn't actually new. It was at least two years ago that the "delorean" tag (and pretty much every tag that could refer to a DeLorean) got blacklisted from the art merchandising site Society6, and at least a year or two before that, I was told by James that even club logos that used any recognizable variant of the DMC logo would likely be C&Ded. He cited the need to defend their trademark especially with their plans for the promised new DeLoreans (I know, I know...)

Personally I've generally had good experiences with DMC franchises and found Stephen and James to be personable and helpful the times I've spoken to them, but the heavy-handed tactics with people who are trying to sell their own original art and photography or run not-for-profit owner/enthusiast clubs aren't something that really promotes goodwill or community spirit. It would be nice if they could work out some kind of low-cost licensing for those who want to sell original artwork or rent their cars for a profit, because that's basically free advertising for DeLoreans and the people who run and patronize these businesses are owners and enthusiasts who are current or potential future customers.

At the time I talked to him, James did mention that they were working on some kind of waiver for clubs but I don't know what ever came of that.

[dtavres]

At the time I talked to him, James did mention that they were working on some kind of waiver for clubs but I don't know what ever came of that.

I hope no owners or clubs are dumb enough to give credence to Fake DMC offering "waivers" when it comes to our cars.

[SonnyV]

Agreed.. But back when SonnyV happened (Recall, I am the guy who discovered and disclosed it) the community was a lot "smaller". We only had the DML. Now we have dozens of forums and information outlets. It may help extend the memories, but again I agree it will fade eventually.

I remember the SonnyV incident well.

I'm totally NOT James. That's 100% legitimate.

[DrWin]

Went to buy something from DMCH this morning and viola... Page is under construction - tag line is "Delorean Motors Reimagined". Is the remanufactured cars now a reality? Inquiring minds wants to know.
68102

[MrChocky]

Went to buy something from DMCH this morning and viola... Page is under construction - tag line is "Delorean Motors Reimagined". Is the remanufactured cars now a reality? Inquiring minds wants to know.
68102

Oops. Likely a genuine mistake. Hopefully they are fixing the numerous errors on the site - I send a list of a bunch of them some weeks ago that they don't seem in a rush to fix (broken links, missing
images, grammar). I can say they've redone the cars for sale page:

https://store.delorean.com/cars-for-sale/for-sale.html

[BLWNAWY]

...they are bullying DeLorean owners and small businesses ... :)

Since I no longer have a horse in this race I thought I might enlighten some newer owners on my experience with DMCH and how they helped put me out of business.

In 1986 on a whim I bought a damaged DeLorean and set out looking for repair parts. I bought a few from DeLorean One but was very put off by their attitude. Using the List of Dealers found in the glove box I tried South Tacoma Chevrolet, who had everything I needed but didn't want to have to go through boxes that were in storage. "Why don't you just buy it all?" asked the parts man, and for $500 I got their entire inventory - $12,000 worth including front fenders, fascias, and hundreds more pieces. About a week later I was able to re-sell just one of them, a 5-speed transmission, for $900, and a business was born. I started Specialty Automotive while still working full time as an engineer, and drove to 48 states with that dealer list, eventually picking up some 29 dealer inventories of parts (and 2 more cars) over the next 18 years. I was able to sell below retail due to my bulk buying, and believe I served my many customers well. As all parts vendors did, I established a good working relationship with the KAPAC warehouse, buying at wholesale the pieces not found in my rapidly growing inventory.

In 1996 I went through a nasty divorce and for a few months lost access to my inventory, which obviously had a negative effect on my business. And in early 1998, I believe, word came around that KAPAC was looking to sell. I considered jumping in, but not having a couple spare million at hand, had to watch while DMCH took over and moved everything south. For a while I was able to continue buying at wholesale from them, but that was soon to end. Stephen informed me that even though I was strictly mail order, I would have to sign on with them as a satellite and open a drive-in repair shop in order to continue getting parts wholesale. Since I was by then living in the country near a town of 1500 people, owning the only DeLoreans for many miles around, and still working at a full time job, this was impossible. Even when I lived in Olympia there were only 5 or 6 in town and I owned 3-4 of them! The volume I sold meant a lot of potential wholesale sales for DMCH, but apparently that was not good enough for them. I struggled on for a few more years but you can't buy at retail and sell at retail and keep in business.

Finally in late 2003 I put my business up for sale, and long time friend Toby Peterson stepped up and the rest (DPNW) is history. Living in the eastern Seattle suburbs, Toby was able to open a nice shop and partner with DMCH. I attended his first open house, as did Stephen, and was not too surprised to observe who seemed to be running things. Toby was able to make that "marriage" work for quite a while, but eventually he, too, was forced out of the DMCH family and now operates very successfully on his own. I'll let him fill the blanks there, but doubt he will as he still has to deal with them.

So while my divorce (I got my house, business, and cars) and subsequent move certainly affected my business, the heavy-handed edict of DMCH was the nail in the coffin. I retained ownership of BLWNAWY for another year but wanted to move on to other interests so let it go. Eleven years later I ended up buying it back, restored it again, and let it go again. I think this time I'm done, but who knows? At current prices affording another D is unlikely. Of the 7 DeLoreans I owned in 18 years, and one 11 years later, all but one cost me $10,000 or less. Try doing that today.

[BladeBronson]

I started Specialty Automotive...

It's been waaay to long ago for me to remember the sequence of events, but there was your Specialty Automotive and also John Hervey's SpecialTAuto, both serving the DeLorean community with confusingly similar names (which is the original topic of this thread). I'm curious if you have any insights from that experience that might benefit either the community, DMCH, or deloreanrental.com in this situation?

[dtavres]

...but not having a couple spare million at hand

Here's the article in Forbes where Fake DMC says they paid "...less than $1 million. The retail value of those parts, Wynne says, is $35 million."

https://www.forbes.com/forbes/2005/0919/090.html

[BLWNAWY]

It's been waaay to long ago for me to remember the sequence of events, but there was your Specialty Automotive and also John Hervey's SpecialTAuto, both serving the DeLorean community with confusingly similar names (which is the original topic of this thread). I'm curious if you have any insights from that experience that might benefit either the community, DMCH, or deloreanrental.com in this situation?

I addressed that issue somewhat in the "John Hervey Passed Away" thread at #17:

"Quote Originally Posted by DMCVegas View Post
Then there was the confusion between "Special-T-Auto" and Darryl Tinnerstet's "Specialty Automotive" in Washington that added to much confusion for buyers, and consternation for Darryl (probably even a factor as to why he retired from the business).

Not really. John and I only spoke once, about his choice of business name and the ensuing "confusion". We had different business practices and goals, and co-existed. The main factor in my decision to retire was DMCH who, after buying out KAPAC, refused to honor their policy of selling wholesale to other smaller vendors. I had a large inventory of my own, but not everything my customers would need. And you can't buy at retail and resell at retail. Upon purchasing my business Toby resolved that issue by becoming a branch of DMCH, something I was unable (due to location) and unwilling to do. That worked for a while, but as with many such unions a "dissolution" was inevitable.

RIP John.

Darryl T
Retired, restoring cars, building street rods
Still lurking here daily"

As noted we just co-existed. There was never any thought of legal action as I don't operate that way. We "traveled in different spheres" I guess - didn't overlap that much. But he did cause me some grief when his customers, having issues with his service or parts, would call me to complain due to the name similarity. I straightened them out...

[BLWNAWY]

Here's the article in Forbes where Fake DMC says they paid "...less than $1 million. The retail value of those parts, Wynne says, is $35 million."

https://www.forbes.com/forbes/2005/0919/090.html

At the time I was in constant contact with Jane at KAPAC. The asking price was considerably higher, and understand it went for just under 1 mil. But I had to factor in the logistics and cost of transporting all of the parts 2/3 of the way across the country, plus the cost of a warehouse large enough to hold them, and the fact that I still had a full time job that I was not interesting (then) of giving up. As luck would have it I did end up retiring (the first of 3 times) in August of 2000. And now there is a huge warehouse available just across the freeway from my house. Oh well.

[AdamKontras]

Your “friend” literally trademarked the name “Delorean Rental” and that’s why they’re going after him.

So yes, if you’re attempting to trademark the name DELOREAN they will give you a cease and desist. He’s now trying to garner support by acting like they’re coming after everyone. No, just people arrogant enough to try and TRADEMARK A TRADEMARKED NAME.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DeCobra]

I was shown a cease and desist from a friend who owns a delorean rental website that they are now threatening legal action against anyone with the name "delorean" in the domain name as trademark! This is going to cause a HUGE stink in the community I think! There are a LOT of websites that use the name for rentals, parts, and even just community forums. Pretty bad on their part as most of these guys, including my friend, bring a LOT of positive awareness with renting out their cars for events and such. He's now consulting an attorney but doesn't seem like anyone in the community can help. Anyone here have any suggestions, as this may set a precedent for everyone moving forward.

Disclaimer: I am not giving legal advice but sharing information you may want to talk to a lawyer about and strongly recommend your friend (or anyone for that matter) seek legal assistance from a trademark lawyer.

I'm surprised no one has raised this yet (what no lawyer DeLorean owners in here?) but your friend should research "Nominative Fair Use" trademark law among a few other fair use law doctrines.

"Nominative Fair Use" - is when a defendant uses the trademark of another company/trademark owner to refer to that trademark owners product in a manner that isn't deceptive or is likely to cause confusion as to whether the trademark owner sponsors or endorses the defendant's product.
"permits use of another's trademark to refer to the trademark owner's goods and services associated with the mark. Here, the trademark is used only to describe the thing rather than to identify its source, and does not imply sponsorship or endorsement."

Nominative fair use is used by all sorts of businesses and shops that service and/or sell parts for automotive brands they don't own the trademark for, to describe their goods and services. E.g. a shop may have "Ford Parts", "GM Parts", or that they are a Ford repair shop etc. to describe the type of goods they sell without trying to claim they are either Ford or GM or that Ford or GM endorse their shop.

There's a lot more to dig into with trademark law, but I hope this high level description helps him understand where he may need to start.

That being said, I'm not picking sides and I understand why DMC Houston has to protect their trademark, but IMHO they need better lawyers who can wisely pick the right cases to pursue so DMCH doesn't waste money and anger their community. I'd even go so far as to recommend that DMCH have a special low cost/no cost licensing program for the mom & pop shops that helps protect DMCH's trademark(s) while saving them money and grief, as well as saving money and grief for the people who help keep their product alive.

[MrChocky]

So while my divorce (I got my house, business, and cars) and subsequent move certainly affected my business, the heavy-handed edict of DMCH was the nail in the coffin. I retained ownership of BLWNAWY for another year but wanted to move on to other interests so let it go. Eleven years later I ended up buying it back, restored it again, and let it go again. I think this time I'm done, but who knows? At current prices affording another D is unlikely. Of the 7 DeLoreans I owned in 18 years, and one 11 years later, all but one cost me $10,000 or less. Try doing that today.

I personally find this history fascinating. So much of the "dark ages" seems to have been poorly documented, or glossed over, or known by people no longer in the community.

Anyway, regarding the mythic 10K car, one (a very far gone car that had been sitting in a field for decades) did actually just sell a few days ago for this price to an enthusiastic young guy. If he's very lucky, he can keep the part expenses
under $20K - new drivetrain and frame for starters. I don't know how much your inventory played into your costs - probably a great deal, since the aggregate of parts, as you know, and end up being quite expensive.

So, it's possible still, just pretty rare. DMCH are now advertising $100K cars - ones they've done a full restoration on of course.

[Malevy]

FWIW, I have no personal vendetta against DMCH, James, Stephen, or anyone else who works there. I actually consider these people my long time friends. That said, I have no problem calling out my friends for bad behavior. DMCH provides a needed service to the DeLorean community, and more so a service to those looking to join the community.

With that in mind....


They bought those rights when nobody wanted them and have done very well out of it.


In the mid 90s they bought the rights to use the name and logo of a long defunct company.

Mr. AussieDMC- You continue to perpetuate the incorrect information that they "bought the rights". They did not buy any intellectual property. KPAC never owned any of the intellectual property, so it was not theirs to sell. DMCH simply took some artwork that had already been in use by the original DMC, and quietly registered it with the USPTO. The block letter "DMC" (like, on the grill) was already EXPIRED in the USPTO system, and in the public domain. What they registered was the stylized "DMC" with an outline around it (which was also used by the original DMC, but never registered). DMCH then used this registration to send S&D letters to anyone who used *any* DMC artwork. Although people like me discussed it ad nauseam for YEARS on the DML (DeLorean Mailing List, which was the only internet meeting place at the time). No one (who could) would stand up to DMCH, and here we are 20 years later and they have registered other forms of artwork including (somehow?!) the expired block "DMC" artwork. This essentially boils down to "squatting", IMO.

Please take note, all articles about DMCH (interviews with Stephen, etc) say that they "acquired" the name and trademark, etc. By design, so people think they bought it.



I hope no owners or clubs are dumb enough to give credence to Fake DMC offering "waivers" when it comes to our cars.

Signing such an agreement increases the DMCH claim to the intellectual property. It establishes that it is accepted that they own it. If this ever makes it before a judge (I doubt it ever will), and DMCH is forced to show the lineage of the intellectual property, it will be obvious that they simply made a claim on something that had been public domain for almost 20 years. Having other entities agree that DMCH owns it *now* will only help their case.



I personally find this history fascinating. So much of the "dark ages" seems to have been poorly documented, or glossed over, or known by people no longer in the community.

Not exactly. The information is out there, if you look for it. All of my DML posts from when this was going on are still out there on the internet. They may have been removed from the official DML archive (since it is now controlled by DMCH), but there are other public copies... and countless private copies. The reality is, most people in the DMC community don't care and NO ONE outside of the community cares.

That said, so many newcomers are looking to make a buck themselves, and they seem to "know it all". DeLorean Rental sites are an excellent example of some new person coming along and trying to make money on the dead carcass of DeLorean Motor Company. DMCH was just the 1st to do it. IP registrations, registering the name "DeLorean Motor Company" (in Texas), and buying the parts from KPAC made them the most successful. Lots of us are making some money from our DeLorean hobby, but the difference here is making money off of something you own (service, bought, or built) versus something you just made a claim on (but never bought or created). In that context, someone who creates a web site to link DeLorean owners with people seeking to rent them (even though we were doing it way before these sites came along) has just as much right to the name "DeLorean" as anyone else... Again, IMO.

[MrChocky]

Not exactly. The information is out there, if you look for it. All of my DML posts from when this was going on are still out there on the internet. They may have been removed from the official DML archive (since it is now controlled by DMCH), but there are other public copies... and countless private copies. The reality is, most people in the DMC community don't care and NO ONE outside of the community cares.



Well, I care. Not really for the politics but for the history. And certainly "knowing where to look" was exactly what I meant when I said "poorly documented" (I have looked and asked before). I'm happy to be pointed at any and all relevant
commentary. I promise to read it, on my honor. I've only been in the community a few years now, and although I read most stuff obsessively, I'm well aware there's much out there that I don't know about.

[aotmfilms]

I still am having a hard time believing this is true or at least, the entirely of the complaint. I just can't wrap my head around people who have dedicated their business model (for the most part) of serving the owners and community, to just start going after individual owners over something that was obviously not intended to infringe on their trademark.

It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. How much money are other DeLorean branded parts sites siphoning away from them?...and this time machine rental guy is the guy they consider enemy#1...or is it just low hanging fruit? I seriously doubt that any calls to them will be answered or even publicly addressed. Not on this or any legal action past present or future.

None of this adds up.

Agreed.

[Helirich]

Here's the article in Forbes where Fake DMC says they paid "...less than $1 million. The retail value of those parts, Wynne says, is $35 million."

https://www.forbes.com/forbes/2005/0919/090.html

I understand that you may have some legitimate beefs with DMCH, but when I read this, it sounds like you are criticizing them for making a good business decision. First, I canÂ’t say it was a good decision. Just because Wynne said it was worth 35 mil, doesnÂ’t make it true. Even if it was, IÂ’m sure anyone could have out bid him. Quite honestly, I suspect he could have made more money with that investment elsewhere.

One thing I know about is “the appearance of wealth”. I use to be partners in a helicopter business. Anybody in the helicopter business must be a millionaire. At least, every body thought we were millionaires. Having my own helicopter certainly promotes that image. The fact is, we were struggling the whole time in that business. I had many employees that made more money than me every year. We had incredible gross income, but we had just as incredible expenses. When we sold out, it was no big windfall. I made far more money as a pilot then in that business.

I suspect Wynne is in that same boat. I sincerely hope he does well. It will not benefit us for him to go out of business. If, as you say, he is just in it for the money, why doesnÂ’t he sell out for millions?

[Malevy]

Well, I care. Not really for the politics but for the history. And certainly "knowing where to look" was exactly what I meant when I said "poorly documented" (I have looked and asked before). I'm happy to be pointed at any and all relevant
commentary. I promise to read it, on my honor. I've only been in the community a few years now, and although I read most stuff obsessively, I'm well aware there's much out there that I don't know about.

http://www.projectvixen.com/

Scroll down, and you will see a link to the archives. There is a basic search engine you can use, or go through the index (which will be very time consuming). http://www.projectvixen.com/dmcnews%2Darchive/

http://www.projectvixen.com/archives/index.htm

Look for terms like USPTO, Trademark, Copyright, etc.

While you are at it, pretty much every DeLorean question that has ever been asked is answered in there too. :)

[gullwingD]

Marc, Why did Sally settle? While it may not be legal at this point, it seems morally wrong that DMCH gets all royalties from Universal on anything related to DeLorean.



The reality of this situation is- all of the DMC Intellectual Property was "public domain" for 10+ years. Had someone taken this seriously 20 years ago when DMCH spent a few dollars to register with the USPTO, then we would not be where we are today. Unfortunately, a judge may see that DMCH has made investments in the IP for the last 20 years and rule in their favor. Not to mention, Sally Baldwin (DeLorean) "settled" with DMCH making their claim even stronger.

We won't know until a judge can see the evidence and decide... And I'd bet money that will never happen. No one is making enough money from using the IP from DMC (that DMCH claims to own) to fight the fight.

Will these disputes have an impact on the DMCH publicity? Yet to be seen, but so far it has not. And some say even bad press is good. DMCH and SW have played a very smart (and selfish) game WRT the IP so far.

[Malevy]

Marc, Why did Sally settle? While it may not be legal at this point, it seems morally wrong that DMCH gets all royalties from Universal on anything related to DeLorean.

I don't know, she did not consult me.. :)

Best guess, she just wanted money.

[dtavres]

I understand that you may have some legitimate beefs with Fake DMCH
Our (DeLorean owners) beef, is with Fake DMC continuously trying to intimidate and bully us - AND thinking that THEY own OUR cars.



It will not benefit us for him to go out of business.
Fake DMC isn't dumb enough to just close the doors. They'll sell the parts to someone else - hopefully someone who actually cares about the DeLorean community, and understands how to treat a dwindling customer base.




If, as you say, he is just in it for the money, why doesn’t he sell out for millions?
Oh, they will - they haven't gotten an offer they think is big enough yet. (And as long as they continue trying to intimidate and bully their customers, hopefully the price will stay low.)

[Quinn]

People have such short memories. Prime example: SonnyV vs. James Espey postings. or the next "new" DeLorean.
There will be sink here for a while and then disappear like a fart in the wind. Until the next fart happens.


Please elaborate. What was SonnyV vs. James Espey?

[Michael]

Please elaborate. What was SonnyV vs. James Espey?

We must remember our history or be condemned to repeat it. Pretty much all has been erased from dmctalk, but fortunately, there is still on ounce of free speech in other places.

https://d3b6c2a8f60f-005816.vbulletin.net/forum/main-forum/product-and-vendor-reviews/837-the-sonny-v-saga

[john 05141]

No reason to get upset.
They are a business and they will not start such a lawsuit wave as they make their living from us, Delorean owners.

But financial trouble? No worries there. If they would file for bankruptcy, someone else willy the inventory to sell.

Jan

[Ron]

We must remember our history or be condemned to repeat it. Pretty much all has been erased from dmctalk, but fortunately, there is still on ounce of free speech in other places.

:8ball:

[DMCH James]

Lots of things going on in this thread across a wide swath of history. The ones who were there when it happened got it mostly right, lots of the others got it varying degrees of wrong. I’m sure the same will be said about what I am about to write. George Carlin, I think, said “where you stand on an issue depends on where you sit” - that seems to fit here, too.

Let me start by saying I stepped away from DMCtalk and social media for a good couple years because it was such a time suck, and I/DMC had more pressing matters at hand. Still do, but knowing what’s going to happen in the very near future - related to the recent changes on our site - and the analytics that say where visitors are coming from, prompted me to come here and find this thread.

The C&D’s were sent out without my direct knowledge, so I can’t say exactly why, but many people here are on the mark when it comes to defending a trademark. Was it done with too broad of a stroke? Not for me to say - I am not an IP lawyer,and neither, I think, is anyone else here.

Yes, the whole SonnyV thing was a mistake I made nearly 20 years ago. I’ve apologized, learned from that mistake and I don’t know what else I can do…if you want a personal apology and hear my version of events, call me or see me at the next DeLorean event. In any case, please know that I realized I fucked up and I’m sorry that I did it. I understand why people got upset about it. I understand that I let people down. I have tried in the ensuing years to give back to the DeLorean community in any way I can via other good works wherever I can.

The DMCnews.com site is not controlled by DMCH nor was it shutdown at SW’s request.. I was able to re-acquire it personally a couple years ago - but never got a full and complete backup of the site. I had hopes of having time to rebuild the data, move it to a different, modern platform, but never have had time. I am supportive of the other DML archives.

DMC/DMCH is in a good financial position - all locations are loaded up with cars for sale, cars to be serviced and the new online store is benefiting all dealers as we give them the orders from their region that they can fill, to further reduce shipping times to customers. That said, Florida does not handle any of the web orders placed by customers in their region - if you want them to, reach out to Tony and Robert! Also, with regards to the store, I hope people are enjoying the larger and 360 photos. We do it all in house, so it’s going slower than I’d like. On that subject, we’re hiring in just about all areas for in-person positions here at DMCH. Come work here and see for yourself what it takes to keep this going! Company paid medical, dental, vision, HSA/HSA, paid holidays/vacation, 401k and more!

Parts availability is very good with new parts coming though keeping stock on the shelf has been a challenge with longer lead times and shortages from assorted suppliers in the US and abroad. We’ve not had a wide-ranging price increase in more than five years, preferring to raise prices where deemed required due to supplier price increases to us.. That will likely have to change this year. Costs are going up left and right on everything for everyone as we all know - fuel, utilities, wages, benefits, etc. DMC is not an exception.

As far as new cars go, yes, we’ve often spoken before we should have. The Pontiac Solstice thing was likely the first, most public, misstep. And it actually started as the Saturn Sky. We had been approached by a company (AMP Motors) that had been building some battery powered Skys (https://uncrate.com/the-amp/) and was making a play for the GM plant where the Sky and Solstice were built when GM shut down Pontiac and Saturn as they filed for bankruptcy. They knew they couldn't use the Pontiac brand and Roger Penske was making a play (that also fizzled out) for Saturn. AMP reached out to us about licensing the DeLorean brand for their planned continuation cars, using the thread of a DeLorean/Pontiac connection as the tie-in. In the early days of the Obama administration, a top donor to their campaign (and Fisker investor) called in a favor to Biden (connected to Delaware, where the Sky/Solstice plant was located) and AMP lost out to Fisker. You can read on your own how that ended. Spoiler alert: Fisker never built anything there and the plant was demolished a few years ago.

The EV that we showed at the 2012 New York Auto Show and our 2011 Open House was built by an ex-Aptera guy who started a battery company and also had a company that made electric ski boats nearby in Louisana as he was (and still is) a composites whiz. We made a deal to buy it from him as part of a plan to work with him to build more. Neither of us were capitalized for it and the EV thing in 2012 was far different than it is today. As an aside, he made a couple complete composite underbodies for us using the factory molds we own. He ended up shutting down the boat company and he’s now back at a newly-formed Aptera company.

Low-volume, after being signed into law in late 2015 is STILL stuck at NHTSA. Trump never had a fully Senate confirmed Director at NHTSA (though I got to sit in on the confirmation hearing for the woman who came closest) so there was a leadership vacuum there that put lots of things behind, including Low Volume. The Trump administration did try to ram a number of pending regs - including Low Volume - through the Federal Register (which would have allowed the Low Volume program to kick off) on the day before Biden’s inauguration. But as every incoming administration does, especially one from the other party, Biden’s team put all that on hold until they could review it. As of last month, it is still being reviewed.

Why is a completely written regulation still under review, even after mostly all positive public comments during the process? We’re told it’s a number of things - NHTSA has a lot on their plate (autonomous is a hot topic now) and still no confirmed Director. Off the record comments are also that no one wants to sign off on it due to the risk of being associated with this legislation if a HNWI or celebrity gets killed in the one of these Low-Volume cars (DeLorean, Cobra, etc) that was not made to modern safety standards as they were not legislatively mandated or required by this NHTSA regulation.

The point being is that these were all honest intentions, but none of them has ever “stuck” for lots of different reasons. It certainly hasn’t been for lack of trying. I hope this added detail about “new cars” gives some background to the “farts in the wind”.

Moving along, over the years we have given very low cost licenses (~$1) to people in the DeLorean community who wanted to make stuff with the logo or use it some other way. At the same time, we have also done a few larger deals and these licensees the biggest part of why we prefer to give licenses rather than just say “sure” when asked. We also also have to show we are protecting the IP to these larger licensees.

Events of the past two years - pandemic, and the legwork resulting in the coming news about the changes to our website - have put the club program on the back burner, but it was far more than just a waiver - lots of nice “value-added” benefits to being a member of an organized local/regional DeLorean club - and I hope once the dust settles in the coming months we are able to re-visit and implement that. I, for one, am anxious to get back out to club events around the US.

SW bought out the inventory of DeLorean parts from Kapac in 1996, not 1998. In the early days DMC owning the Kapac inventory, the goal was to get more service centers, not more mail-order parts sellers. What the DeLorean community needed was DeLorean-specialized service, not more ads in the back of DeLorean World from people selling parts from their homes. We continued for many years to sell to Dave Bauerle and Rob Grady.

We stopped selling to Rob when he would badmouth the products we were selling when in some cases he was buying those same parts from us and selling them and as the years went by, and we had the other locations his purchase volume dropped to the point where he was buying less than the "minimum" required even in the Kapac days. We really wanted Rob to come on board with DMC like Dave and Julee and Tony and Don, but he wasn't interested in improving his facility to meet the standards that FL, MW and CA had done, nor was he interested to move to a location more convenient to the majority of owners in the NE USA. Midwest also sold to Josh for a while. There were a couple of reasons why we stopped doing business with Josh, and the biggest was likely that he was in the same territory as they were. I like the analogy that McDonald's doesn't sell french fries to Burger King.

As far as our ending of our relationship with Toby, in general terms, we discovered he was grossly violating the terms of agreement he signed when he came on with DMC. He was unable or unwilling to remedy those violations in a manner that would allow him to continue as a DMC dealer. For the record, Toby insisted on non-disclosure terms with regards to the settlement that legally ended our relationship - not us.

At the time of our big 2017 inventory, we had about 3.5 million parts in the warehouse. That number continues to grow as whenever we go out and do a parts buy - either a repro part for something that has gone out of stock or something totally new - we have to buy at minimum hundreds and often thousands. With more or less 3,000 SKU’s, there’s a high cost associated with keeping those parts on hand - whether we sell one a day of that SKU or one every five years (or longer). Think property taxes, insurance, maintenance, utilities, wages, and on and on and on.

And actually, we did get rights to certain IP from Kapac, which they acquired from Consolidated when they got it from the DMCL Receiver. The stylized DMC logo, of course, was not part of that and was acquired through an application approved by the USPTO. Over the years we have added to the IP portfolio to protect the brand from uses that could have been inconsistent with the direction in which Stephen (as owner) wanted the business to go. That’s why it’s a Deluxo in GTA and not a DeLorean, for example.

I don’t know why Sally Baldwin agreed to a settlement, but I have to think that her attorney likely advised her to do so in light of the costs associated with going to trial. We were insured for legal fees for this, and our insurers also encouraged a settlement to keep their costs low. Such is the legal system in America - SW wanted a trial, but he also didn’t want to get dropped by our insurance company at renewal time.

As an aside, at the time, we knew the JZD estate still had a multi-million dollar judgment against it by JZD’s former attorney, Mayer Morganroth. One can make the connection that whatever award or settlement the estate might have received would be attached by Morganroth. Perhaps the settlement amount Sally agreed to was below a threshold that made it unattractive to Morganroth to pursue. Or perhaps her lawyer advised her to settle after the discovery part of the legal proceedings were filed by both sides and they realized it was better to settle than take their chances at a trial.

Also, JZD had also filed for personal bankruptcy in the early 2000s, or perhaps late 90s. Either way, he claimed no assets in the bankruptcy as did the estate after his passing during probate. For the Estate to now claim certain rights (read: assets worth fighting for) could be construed as fraud at a trial, or so we were told at the time. Again, I am not a lawyer..

I consider Marc a long time friend, too. Marc, lmk if you still need Purflux filters, I recently found some in an old box while looking for radio manuals for you in my storage unit from when I moved.

See you all around here again in a couple years. Call me if you'd like to chat - 281/441-2537, just ask for me with whomever answers the phone...

[JBaker4981]

The C&D’s were sent out without my direct knowledge, so I can’t say exactly why, but many people here are on the mark when it comes to defending a trademark. Was it done with too broad of a stroke? Not for me to say - I am not an IP lawyer,and neither, I think, is anyone else here.

Pointing this out and asking before this thread absolutely explodes and potentially gets locked since this is the original discussion of the thread.

So James... Are you saying that no Cease & Desists were issued with involvement from DMCH or any subsidiaries to Jason Asplough (deloreanrental.com)?

[kbrown84]

Hey James, while you’re waiting for NHTSA, you could make that Stage 2 placard we talked about in 2019! 😂😂

[SonnyV]

So the new cars are still coming?

[gullwingD]

>>>So the new cars are still coming?

Sounded like he said not any time soon, but maybe I misread.

[Helirich]

Well, that was an interesting read. Kudos to James for writing. (He didn’t have to) And I don’t suppose it will settle anything.

[SonnyV]

>>>So the new cars are still coming?

Sounded like he said not any time soon, but maybe I misread.

If you haven't figured it out from my user name, I have ZERO faith in Houston's abilities to make a competent product; let alone a car.

[WHO1DMC]

This was just posted! It's just weird!

https://youtu.be/EnAQclTEc10


It's from DMCH

Dave B.

[Michael]

Low volume vehicle law is pretty clear that any car produced under that act must look like the original vehicle. DMC still clinging on to that non DeLorean car may hint that they are completely abandoning the act that has pretty much stalled. Perhaps they are going to purchase all or part of some obscure low production car company that has already jumped through all the government hoops and has a car already completed.

If there is some sort of collaboration, all they need to do is slap a "DMC" badge on it and call it a day.

[BLWNAWY]

SonnyV thing was a mistake I made

SW bought out the inventory of DeLorean parts from Kapac in 1996, not 1998. In the early days DMC owning the Kapac inventory, the goal was to get more service centers, not more mail-order parts sellers. What the DeLorean community needed was DeLorean-specialized service, not more ads in the back of DeLorean World

As far as our ending of our relationship with Toby, in general terms, we discovered he was grossly violating the terms of agreement he signed when he came on with DMC. He was unable or unwilling to remedy those violations in a manner that would allow him to continue as a DMC dealer.

A few observations - I was still buying wholesale from Kapac in 1997, and attended their open house 10/31/97. If they sold out to SW a year earlier that's news to me, but it would explain some of what was observed there. 'Nuf said. My earlier comment was not about "more mail-order parts sellers", it was about supporting existing ones that had been very successfully filling an apparent void, with lower costs, for many years. My inventory, probably second only to theirs in size, was viewed as competition - especially since my prices were lower due to my low acquisition costs. (Note that DMCH's low acquisition costs did not result in similar lower prices...). That inventory in Toby's hands plus the proprietary and very successful door opener and door lock actuator kits I pioneered, now sold as DPNW's "Wings Aloft" products, are no doubt what caused his "violation". DMCH probably couldn't handle the competition so kicked him to the curb. All in all I have no regrets about moving on, but it was directly caused by SW and DMCH.

McDonalds may not sell french fries to Burger King, but they can both sell them without one forcing the other out of business. Especially when they didn't invent the potato.

[gullwingD]

>>McDonalds may not sell french fries to Burger King, but they can both sell them without one forcing the other out of business. Especially when they didn't invent the potato.[/QUOTE]
well said

[dmcnc]

Low volume vehicle law is pretty clear that any car produced under that act must look like the original vehicle. DMC still clinging on to that non DeLorean car may hint that they are completely abandoning the act that has pretty much stalled. Perhaps they are going to purchase all or part of some obscure low production car company that has already jumped through all the government hoops and has a car already completed.

If there is some sort of collaboration, all they need to do is slap a "DMC" badge on it and call it a day.

^THIS!! Or some failed italdesign project that will be salvaged by slapping a DMC logo on it.

[Alex Brooks]

I want parts not leggings sold to me by an interracial couple

[Michael]

What we were promised:

68105

What we got:
68107

DMCH: "The future was never promised"

[JBaker4981]

What we got:
68107


"Great! I always wanted a DeLorean branded Sex Doll!" - Fanatics

[gullwingD]

Complete with camel toe!


What we were promised:

68105

What we got:
68107

DMCH: "The future was never promised"

[Alex Brooks]

Gull wings to camel toe Delorean has you covered

[Malevy]

Lots of things going on in this thread across a wide swath of history. The ones who were there when it happened got it mostly right, lots of the others got it varying degrees of wrong. I’m sure the same will be said about what I am about to write. George Carlin, I think, said “where you stand on an issue depends on where you sit” - that seems to fit here, too.

From where you sit, you not only have direct access to the "real story"- but are part of it. I appreciate your honesty in this message, but... (there is always a but with me!! LOL!) more on that later.

One thing I don't understand from the community is the failure to recognize that DMCH is a for profit business. Buy low, sell high is the basic idea behind making a profit. No one should be finding fault with it, as long as it is done in a legal and moral way. More to say on that, but it is not really relevant to this conversation.



On that subject, weÂ’re hiring in just about all areas for in-person positions here at DMCH. Come work here and see for yourself what it takes to keep this going! Company paid medical, dental, vision, HSA/HSA, paid holidays/vacation, 401k and more!

I happen to be between gigs right now... :)




And actually, we did get rights to certain IP from Kapac, which they acquired from Consolidated when they got it from the DMCL Receiver. The stylized DMC logo, of course, was not part of that and was acquired through an application approved by the USPTO. Over the years we have added to the IP portfolio to protect the brand from uses that could have been inconsistent with the direction in which Stephen (as owner) wanted the business to go.

Here is where the "but" comes in. Based on this, it seems to confirm what I have been saying for 20 years. The stylized logo (which existed in DMC documentation from the late 1970's) was registered by DMCH. Something that DMCH did not create, or buy- something that was literally pulled off of 20 year old documents (at the time), was simply claimed by filing a form with the USPTO. That claim was then used to block the previously public domain use of any DeLorean related "artwork" (Stylized, block, whatever...) with bully tactics. I am restating this for clarity, because it is the specific focus of my argument. Again, it sounds to me that you are confirming my position on the matter. I too am not a lawyer, but believe that if a judge saw the evidence in the matter, they would have invalidated the claim. With the time that has passed, that may not be true anymore. Either way, I believe this is an immoral way to make a profit. Even if you agree with me, you are not in a position to say so publicly. :)



I consider Marc a long time friend, too. Marc, lmk if you still need Purflux filters, I recently found some in an old box while looking for radio manuals for you in my storage unit from when I moved.

I have a few Purflux filters left, so I am OK for now- but could always use more as backup. I don't drive 1860 much anymore. Been thinking about selling it.

WRT Rob, Toby, Etc- I was not part of any of that, but will say I heard different sides/versions of those stories. Interesting to hear yours too. Personally, I think more vendors selling and servicing our cars is better for everyone and am disappointed when action is taken to "reduce competition". IMO, it is shortsighted and not good business.

Glad we could get you roped back in to the time suck vortex of the internet. Hope to see you IRL soon.

[gullwingD]

This is exactly the issue I have -- it is morally wrong! The newcomers don't get it. John DeLorean is rolling in his grave. There will NEVER be a new DeLorean, you can put the name on it -- but it is not a DeLorean! As much as John wanted to create a new car, he would not want a 3rd party profiting off his his hard work, leaving no money for his family. His family was taken advantage of after his death.

>>>Here is where the "but" comes in. Based on this, it seems to confirm what I have been saying for 20 years. The stylized logo (which existed in DMC documentation from the late 1970's) was registered by DMCH. Something that DMCH did not create, or buy- something that was literally pulled off of 20 year old documents (at the time), was simply claimed by filing a form with the USPTO. That claim was then used to block the previously public domain use of any DeLorean related "artwork" (Stylized, block, whatever...) with bully tactics. I am restating this for clarity, because it is the specific focus of my argument. Again, it sounds to me that you are confirming my position on the matter. I too am not a lawyer, but believe that if a judge saw the evidence in the matter, they would have invalidated the claim. With the time that has passed, that may not be true anymore. Either way, I believe this is an immoral way to make a profit. Even if you agree with me, you are not in a position to say so publicly.

[dtavres]

Events of the past two years - pandemic, and the legwork resulting in the coming news about the changes to our website - have put the club program on the back burner, but it was far more than just a waiver - lots of nice “value-added” benefits to being a member of an organized local/regional DeLorean club - and I hope once the dust settles in the coming months we are able to re-visit and implement that. I, for one, am anxious to get back out to club events around the US.

LOL... the past TWO years?! Fake DMC hasn't cared about the DeLorean community for FAR longer than that... and they think they'll be welcomed by DeLorean owners by offering 10% off of their already overpriced parts? lol Hopefully they hire an image consultant to train them on how to be part of a community, and how to actually care about their CUSTOMERS.


DeLorean OWNERS should make use the various crossover parts lists out there (like this one - www.DeLoreanDirectory.com/crossover-parts (https://www.DeLoreanDirectory.com/crossover-parts)) so they can get the same/better parts, sometimes with REAL warranties, instead of buying Fake DMC's parts, and getting over-charged on shipping.


Also, support these companies, who ARE part of our communities - www.DeLoreanDirectory.com/service (https://www.DeLoreanDirectory.com/service)

[dtavres]

Fake DMC's new tagline... "We never PROMISED to build the 'new' DeLorean in the future." lol

[DMCVegas]

Reading all of the posts this thread reminds me of why I opted to become an online recluse by cutting off contact with most people and the community itself.


I addressed that issue somewhat in the "John Hervey Passed Away" thread at #17:

"Quote Originally Posted by DMCVegas View Post
Then there was the confusion between "Special-T-Auto" and Darryl Tinnerstet's "Specialty Automotive" in Washington that added to much confusion for buyers, and consternation for Darryl (probably even a factor as to why he retired from the business).

Not really. John and I only spoke once, about his choice of business name and the ensuing "confusion". We had different business practices and goals, and co-existed. The main factor in my decision to retire was DMCH who, after buying out KAPAC, refused to honor their policy of selling wholesale to other smaller vendors. I had a large inventory of my own, but not everything my customers would need. And you can't buy at retail and resell at retail. Upon purchasing my business Toby resolved that issue by becoming a branch of DMCH, something I was unable (due to location) and unwilling to do. That worked for a while, but as with many such unions a "dissolution" was inevitable.

RIP John.

Darryl T
Retired, restoring cars, building street rods
Still lurking here daily"

As noted we just co-existed. There was never any thought of legal action as I don't operate that way. We "traveled in different spheres" I guess - didn't overlap that much. But he did cause me some grief when his customers, having issues with his service or parts, would call me to complain due to the name similarity. I straightened them out...

I like you, Darryl. You once saved me a ton of work and sold me a solitary antenna mast so that I didn't have to buy an entirely new antenna assembly.

But I do remember you came across as a whole lot more upset by Hervey's actions and his flippant attitude towards you.

http://www.projectvixen.com/dmcnews-archive/msg38724.html

I'm still amazed to this day that John didn't go out of business sooner with his terrible organizational skills, or rather lack thereof.

[Michael]

Low volume vehicle law is pretty clear that any car produced under that act must look like the original vehicle. DMC still clinging on to that non DeLorean car may hint that they are completely abandoning the act that has pretty much stalled. Perhaps they are going to purchase all or part of some obscure low production car company that has already jumped through all the government hoops and has a car already completed.

If there is some sort of collaboration, all they need to do is slap a "DMC" badge on it and call it a day.

Looks like (on the surface) I was about 80% right. The rumor is they are going in with a 3 wheeled electric "car", so with 3 wheels, the vehicle doesn't have to conform to nearly any of the safety protocols that a normal automobile does.

If that's true, then the new DeLorean will be nothing more than a rebadged "econobox" electric trike with all the status and prominence of those rental electric cars you see married couples from Arkansas riding around in at the beach.

Motor journalist bloggers and Jalopnik millennials will fawn over it and you may even see it on the morning shows in NYC, but that will be nothing more than a flash in the pan. It will have the lifespan of a Mayfly and be dead in the water by 2023.

If however it rises above the run of the mill 3 wheelers out there, the name alone may help propel it to cult status. I spent a few weekends with a Slingshot when they first came out. I was impressed for a few days, but the shine didn't last and the appeal faded fast. That said, a lot of people bought them and a lot of people enjoy them...as a recreational toy, not really a GT car.

In the end we may like it or hate it, not really important either way. It's their risk to take and their direction to go. They have to make money too and if this venture works, then good for them....and about time because finally...after 11+ years of teasing, at least they got something to show for it, even if it's 3/4 of a car.

[DMCVegas]

This is exactly the issue I have -- it is morally wrong! The newcomers don't get it. John DeLorean is rolling in his grave. There will NEVER be a new DeLorean, you can put the name on it -- but it is not a DeLorean! As much as John wanted to create a new car, he would not want a 3rd party profiting off his his hard work, leaving no money for his family. His family was taken advantage of after his death.

John Zachary De Lorean is dead. He has no say in anything. Be it building new cars, or even for idiot owners out there who continue to listen to sub-par scratchy radio in their cars because they're trying to "preserve" their cars because it's how JZD built the car. Let alone the fact that he wished Houston better luck with his own brand than he had. But it doesn't matter because he isn't here.

Ignoring the entire argument about the pedigrees of cars which was essentially destroyed by badge engineering and fully eliminated by captive imports, it doesn't matter anymore. Hell, even General Motors doesn't exist any more if you want to get technical about it. They went bankrupt, and a new company with a similar name took their former resources. Legally, they aren't the same. But no, you never hear anyone else complaining that their Silverado or Corvette isn't a "real" Chevrolet.

You honestly want to know what I think? I think that if you could somehow ask JZD, be it across the void of the Great Beyond, or if you could meet him in the past, he'd probably be perfectly fine with what is going on. Sure, the only exception he'd have would most likely be that he wouldn't be around to see some personal income since he'd be long dead by this time. But he'd love every minute of it. Why you ask?

No one remembers the big CEOs like Ed Cole, and even people like Lee Iacocca are a fast fading memory. Most people don't even know how many Ford family members there are, let alone can tell them apart. Only hardcore Corvette guys know who Zora Arkus-Duntov is, and other designers like Larry Shinoda who pioneered not just muscle cars from the 60's but the echoes from his design studio can still be seen in the Jeep brand today are all but anonymous now. But John Z. De Lorean won. He's the one that everyone will remember. His name, his image, his legend will continue on. Just like Obwaandi'eyaag.

Now I'm sure you've no idea who Obwaandi'eyaag is. So I'll save you a search. He was an indigenous war chief from the Detroit area who fought against settlers and was considered by some a hero, and a villain by others. You probably know him better by his more common name, Pontiac.

156 years after his death, his name, and occasionally (interpreted) likeness was emblazoned upon automobiles that had not even been invented in his lifetime. Eventually his name, thanks to a young engineer named John Z. De Lorean who would ultimately head the company division, would command great respect on the road and among the people. And just like what De Lorean did for Pontiac, the same shall be done for De Lorean. JZD has become the new Pontiac. What the automotive world did for Pontiac, it will now in an interesting twist of fate, do the same for De Lorean.

So yes, he'd be happy because he won. His name has become not simply famous, but it is now legend beyond what any of his peers could achieve.

[matt clark]

^THIS!! Or some failed italdesign project that will be salvaged by slapping a DMC logo on it.

I was sent this by anther eagle-eyed D owner and I wonder if this is the plan:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motor-shows-geneva-motor-show/italdesign-davinci-concept-previews-electric-grand-tourer

I don't see how it would be possible unless Ital have a manufacturing partner, though. Individually they would cost moon-money. I'm not crazy about all of this (can't wait to add "is that one of the old ones" to the list of stupid questions), but if the above is the case then it's probably as close to the spirit of the original car as you can get.

[Michael]

I was sent this by anther eagle-eyed D owner and I wonder if this is the plan:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motor-shows-geneva-motor-show/italdesign-davinci-concept-previews-electric-grand-tourer

I don't see how it would be possible unless Ital have a manufacturing partner, though. Individually they would cost moon-money. I'm not crazy about all of this (can't wait to add "is that one of the old ones" to the list of stupid questions), but if the above is the case then it's probably as close to the spirit of the original car as you can get.

To draw a unconventional parallel, I used to sell a lot of guns before the market got stupid crazy. I had much better success selling to the $600.00 and less crowd than to the $700 and up crowd. Reason being the people with deeper pockets knew what they were doing.

Now consider the proposed 6 figure price point of most GT electrics. Which would you rather have, an obscure electric with a "DMC" badge pasted on for dewy eyed romantics or at the same price, a brand new 2022 Lexus LC500 that comes with top tier performance and build quality, global warranty support, and the company is older than my T shirt?

If they go for the 6 figure crowd, they damn well better have a stellar product.

[WHO1DMC]

I was sent this by anther eagle-eyed D owner and I wonder if this is the plan:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motor-shows-geneva-motor-show/italdesign-davinci-concept-previews-electric-grand-tourer

I don't see how it would be possible unless Ital have a manufacturing partner, though. Individually they would cost moon-money. I'm not crazy about all of this (can't wait to add "is that one of the old ones" to the list of stupid questions), but if the above is the case then it's probably as close to the spirit of the original car as you can get.

You beat me to it!
I was doing some detective work myself and it was my conclusion as well. There's a lot of similar things going on.
We just have to wait I guess.

Dave B.

[JBaker4981]

I was sent this by anther eagle-eyed D owner and I wonder if this is the plan:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motor-shows-geneva-motor-show/italdesign-davinci-concept-previews-electric-grand-tourer

I don't see how it would be possible unless Ital have a manufacturing partner, though. Individually they would cost moon-money. I'm not crazy about all of this (can't wait to add "is that one of the old ones" to the list of stupid questions), but if the above is the case then it's probably as close to the spirit of the original car as you can get.

DeLorean or not... that ItalDesign Concept is sexy as fuck!

68110

My primary issue with all Electric Vehicles is Battery Degradation. Battery cells naturally degrade due to constantly being drained and charged non-stop and you WILL be forced to replace your batteries every 5-8 years if you want to continue to use your EV to its fullest potential. The money that you originally save in Fuel is simply being reallocated to the cost of battery replacement which commonly runs into the 5 figure range. As of right now, it's a gimmick. Until battery degradation is almost solved, I will never purchase nor give any thought to purchasing an electric vehicle.

[MacStainless]

Reading all of the posts this thread reminds me of why I opted to become an online recluse by cutting off contact with most people and the community itself.



👆🏻 THIS. Right here.

I was super-involved with the community and my local club (DMA) for years before even buying my car. Complete drama, too many strong personalities, and just overall BS that took the joy away from ownership caused me to step away too. That was in the club, the DML, and at events. Just awful.

Every single time I dip a toe back into things, I'm reminded real quick how stupid things get.

It's a car. DMC is a business. People gotta freaking chill out. The amount of in-fighting for such a small community is mind-bloggling. I swear we couldn't get consensus on anything if we tried. Like DMCH, don't like DMCH, want to sell your own stuff, don't want to sell your stuff, involved or not, it is so much drama. And for what? Go enjoy your car. You know, the ACTUAL thing that's supposed to bring some joy to our lives as owners.

[Michael]

���� THIS. Right here.

I was super-involved with the community and my local club (DMA) for years before even buying my car. Complete drama, too many strong personalities, and just overall BS that took the joy away from ownership caused me to step away too. That was in the club, the DML, and at events. Just awful.

Every single time I dip a toe back into things, I'm reminded real quick how stupid things get.

It's a car. DMC is a business. People gotta freaking chill out. The amount of in-fighting for such a small community is mind-bloggling. I swear we couldn't get consensus on anything if we tried. Like DMCH, don't like DMCH, want to sell your own stuff, don't want to sell your stuff, involved or not, it is so much drama. And for what? Go enjoy your car. You know, the ACTUAL thing that's supposed to bring some joy to our lives as owners.
You guys are really missed too. Why is it that whenever people like to discuss and have conversations, even debates, someone always cries foul and runs away? It's not drama. It's not fighting and nobody needs to "chill out". Stop trying to be the lone voice of reason and maturity while at the same time elevating yourself to "I'm better than all of this" status with your self serving lectures. This is a discussion forum aptly named DMCTalk and the sub forum "DeLorean discussion"...WTF did you think we would be doing here?
Strong opinions aside, I like opiniated people even if we don't see things the same. I like conversing with those people and some the ones whom I have had "strong discussions" with in the past, (I guess that would be what you call drama and fighting) I have since became good friends with. They have even stayed at my home and we hung out together at DMC events(while you two sour pusses stayed home with the blinds drawn wallowing in your self righteousness).

[MacStainless]

You guys are really missed too. Why is it that whenever people like to discuss and have conversations, even debates, someone always cries foul and runs away? It's not drama. It's not fighting and nobody needs to "chill out". Stop trying to be the lone voice of reason and maturity while at the same time elevating yourself to "I'm better than all of this" status with your self serving lectures. This is a discussion forum aptly named DMCTalk and the sub forum "DeLorean discussion"...WTF did you think we would be doing here?
Strong opinions aside, I like opiniated people even if we don't see things the same. I like conversing with those people and some the ones whom I have had differing opinions in the past, I have since became good friends with. They have even stayed at my home and we hung out together at DMC events(while you two sour pusses stayed home with the blinds drawn wallowing in your self righteousness).

You make good points, Mike. There's a few assumptions, which is fine, so I just want to clarify my position. Whether anyone agrees or doesn't agree with it is fine. I know everyone is coming from different angles.

I'm not saying there's no room for debates or lengthy discussion (we're on page 11 of this thread!) but I do think there is a lot of unnecessary stirring of the pot and circular discussions that don't make any progress. I personally simply don't want to be a part of that aspect of the community.

I am definitely not trying to be a 'lone voice' or anything. Just stating my position (which I KNOW people will disagree with) that we don't need to get so wrapped up in things that are supposed to bring us happiness.

Removing myself from the community was a decision I made for MY mental health. I've wanted a Delorean since I was a kid and busted my butt to get one. To then see there was an ancilary aspect to ownership that was negative was... frustrating. I foolishly thought for a while that I could try to set a good example. Instead, I got caught up in it all and realized it was taking away from ownership instead of adding to it. Of all the "friends" I made over the years through ownership, only ONE would ever try to keep in contact with me. Everyone else was kinda ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ and, again, that is fine. So I'm not being a "sour puss at home with the blinds drawn". I'm making sure I prioritize my own state of mind by selectively including myself in thing and equally removing myself too. This community can freaking consume you if you let it (Marc even said so in his response to James).

I think there's a LOT of animosity toward DMCH (misplaced or not) which doesn't help anything. James' reply a few pages ago was IMO good and well-written. He flat-out apologized for the SunnyV thing and seems to be genuine in his statements. Like all of us, he's not perfect. I sure as hell aren't perfect either. I simply want one thing: to enjoy my car.

[Michael]

You make good points, Mike. There's a few assumptions, which is fine, so I just want to clarify my position. Whether anyone agrees or doesn't agree with it is fine. I know everyone is coming from different angles.

I'm not saying there's no room for debates or lengthy discussion (we're on page 11 of this thread!) but I do think there is a lot of unnecessary stirring of the pot and circular discussions that don't make any progress. I personally simply don't want to be a part of that aspect of the community.

I am definitely not trying to be a 'lone voice' or anything. Just stating my position (which I KNOW people will disagree with) that we don't need to get so wrapped up in things that are supposed to bring us happiness.

Removing myself from the community was a decision I made for MY mental health. I've wanted a Delorean since I was a kid and busted my butt to get one. To then see there was an ancilary aspect to ownership that was negative was... frustrating. I foolishly thought for a while that I could try to set a good example. Instead, I got caught up in it all and realized it was taking away from ownership instead of adding to it. Of all the "friends" I made over the years through ownership, only ONE would ever try to keep in contact with me. Everyone else was kinda ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ and, again, that is fine. So I'm not being a "sour puss at home with the blinds drawn". I'm making sure I prioritize my own state of mind by selectively including myself in thing and equally removing myself too. This community can freaking consume you if you let it (Marc even said so in his response to James).

I think there's a LOT of animosity toward DMCH (misplaced or not) which doesn't help anything. James' reply a few pages ago was IMO good and well-written. He flat-out apologized for the SunnyV thing and seems to be genuine in his statements. Like all of us, he's not perfect. I sure as hell aren't perfect either. I simply want one thing: to enjoy my car.

Hey no worries man. I get it. Too much of anything is bad and it don't take very much of being in this community to need to unplug for a bit..or longer. Your opinion is just as valid as mine.

I too am fine with James' apology and I promise I will not bring it up anymore. Winter seems to keep most of us in front of a screen more and with the last few years to boot, it stands to reason we are all a little more on edge.

Sorry I may have "overacted"... it's the sign of a opiniated drama queen.

[gullwingD]

The Ford family is still involved with the business and still gets paid. Would love to hear how Kathryn and Zach feel about how DMCH acquired the stylized logo, and how they're selling new merch with the family name, without getting a dime, or not getting royalties from the Back to Future franchise for so many years. I think we need another movie, or documentary. A LOT of unanswered questions and confusion - and the general public should know.



John Zachary De Lorean is dead. He has no say in anything. Be it building new cars, or even for idiot owners out there who continue to listen to sub-par scratchy radio in their cars because they're trying to "preserve" their cars because it's how JZD built the car. Let alone the fact that he wished Houston better luck with his own brand than he had. But it doesn't matter because he isn't here.

Ignoring the entire argument about the pedigrees of cars which was essentially destroyed by badge engineering and fully eliminated by captive imports, it doesn't matter anymore. Hell, even General Motors doesn't exist any more if you want to get technical about it. They went bankrupt, and a new company with a similar name took their former resources. Legally, they aren't the same. But no, you never hear anyone else complaining that their Silverado or Corvette isn't a "real" Chevrolet.

You honestly want to know what I think? I think that if you could somehow ask JZD, be it across the void of the Great Beyond, or if you could meet him in the past, he'd probably be perfectly fine with what is going on. Sure, the only exception he'd have would most likely be that he wouldn't be around to see some personal income since he'd be long dead by this time. But he'd love every minute of it. Why you ask?

No one remembers the big CEOs like Ed Cole, and even people like Lee Iacocca are a fast fading memory. Most people don't even know how many Ford family members there are, let alone can tell them apart. Only hardcore Corvette guys know who Zora Arkus-Duntov is, and other designers like Larry Shinoda who pioneered not just muscle cars from the 60's but the echoes from his design studio can still be seen in the Jeep brand today are all but anonymous now. But John Z. De Lorean won. He's the one that everyone will remember. His name, his image, his legend will continue on. Just like Obwaandi'eyaag.

Now I'm sure you've no idea who Obwaandi'eyaag is. So I'll save you a search. He was an indigenous war chief from the Detroit area who fought against settlers and was considered by some a hero, and a villain by others. You probably know him better by his more common name, Pontiac.

156 years after his death, his name, and occasionally (interpreted) likeness was emblazoned upon automobiles that had not even been invented in his lifetime. Eventually his name, thanks to a young engineer named John Z. De Lorean who would ultimately head the company division, would command great respect on the road and among the people. And just like what De Lorean did for Pontiac, the same shall be done for De Lorean. JZD has become the new Pontiac. What the automotive world did for Pontiac, it will now in an interesting twist of fate, do the same for De Lorean.

So yes, he'd be happy because he won. His name has become not simply famous, but it is now legend beyond what any of his peers could achieve.

[Helirich]

His family was taken advantage of after his death.

Umm no. While it is pretty well documented the drug charges were bs, the fraud/embezzlement charges were not. He and his family benefited by his shady dealings. There were other un-named people that lost in those dealings. What about their familyÂ’s? What about the familys of factory workers that lost their jobs? IÂ’m not going to say some bad choices means his whole life is bad, but he is responsible for his choices. If he couldnÂ’t leave anything to his family, itÂ’s his fault. His family got to live the celebrity lifestyle for awhile. ItÂ’s not anybody elseÂ’s fault they couldnÂ’t continue.

But most important, people are not “owed” anything by their parents. (Except an upbringing) It’s nice if they get something, but it’s the luck of the draw. To suggest otherwise is the “entitlement culture” that is the bane of our society today.

[Malevy]

Removing myself from the community was a decision I made for MY mental health. I've wanted a Delorean since I was a kid and busted my butt to get one. To then see there was an ancilary aspect to ownership that was negative was... frustrating. I foolishly thought for a while that I could try to set a good example. Instead, I got caught up in it all and realized it was taking away from ownership instead of adding to it. Of all the "friends" I made over the years through ownership, only ONE would ever try to keep in contact with me. Everyone else was kinda ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ and, again, that is fine. So I'm not being a "sour puss at home with the blinds drawn". I'm making sure I prioritize my own state of mind by selectively including myself in thing and equally removing myself too. This community can freaking consume you if you let it (Marc even said so in his response to James).



OUCH This may be a matter of perspective, but I reached out to you MANY times after you seemed to have disappeared. You removed me from FaceBook, and G+ (when it still existed). You ignored my emails, and texts. How many times can I be ignored before I take the hint- you don't want to associate anymore? Should I beg?! I actually ask this question of myself A LOT, even more so recently as it seems the old norms of socializing are gone forever. I'll stop there, because this is not a therapy session. Point is, unless I am the "ONE" you are talking about (and, I don't think I am)- you are way off base with this. I am sure many other people in the DMA feel the same. You just vanished, and ghosted us. I assume with good reason? But, that is none of my business. Please consider your perception is inaccurate.

Totally understand that you would prioritize your own mental health, etc.. But "removing yourself" never has to be all or nothing. Discussions about specific topics (mostly being online) can be avoided without removing yourself from the community. Your choices impact the outcome. Did we focus on these all consuming and divisive topics in your physical presence? Not that I remember, but if so, I apologize- and wish you would have said it made you uncomfortable (so I could adjust) instead of ghosting.


To anyone else who does not like this (or any other) topic, for whatever reason, you can simply stop reading and ignore it. Discussions about a specific topic should not influence your participation in the community.

[MacStainless]

OUCH This may be a matter of perspective, but I reached out to you MANY times after you seemed to have disappeared. You removed me from FaceBook, and G+ (when it still existed). You ignored my emails, and texts. How many times can I be ignored before I take the hint- you don't want to associate anymore? Should I beg?! I actually ask this question of myself A LOT, even more so recently as it seems the old norms of socializing are gone forever. I'll stop there, because this is not a therapy session. Point is, unless I am the "ONE" you are talking about (and, I don't think I am)- you are way off base with this. I am sure many other people in the DMA feel the same. You just vanished, and ghosted us. I assume with good reason? But, that is none of my business. Please consider your perception is inaccurate.

Totally understand that you would prioritize your own mental health, etc.. But "removing yourself" never has to be all or nothing. Discussions about specific topics (mostly being online) can be avoided without removing yourself from the community. Your choices impact the outcome. Did we focus on these all consuming and divisive topics in your physical presence? Not that I remember, but if so, I apologize- and wish you would have said it made you uncomfortable (so I could adjust) instead of ghosting.


To anyone else who does not like this (or any other) topic, for whatever reason, you can simply stop reading and ignore it. Discussions about a specific topic should not influence your participation in the community.

Marc, happy to take this off-thread. I don't feel the need to comment on all this in public. You're not wrong, but there's a lot that lead to the actions I took for my sanity. I acknowledge my perception was potentially only mine, but I'll leave it at that on here.

Hit me up on PM if you want. Hope all is well with you!

[DrJeff]

Is it just me or do these 'E's not look awfully, I don't know... confusable.

68112

[delorean4ever]

Is it just me or do these 'E's not look awfully, I don't know... confusable.

68112

I'm hoping it's a hint.

[81dmc]

Wow.

It always amazes me how much drama pervades in this small community.

Honestly who cares what DMCH does anymore? We have other companies here and in Europe nowadays. Yes they don’t have the NOS parts, but they are working hard to reproduce what they can. If you get a C&D, just ignore it.

Next topic…
Will DMCH build a "new" car?
68126

They can’t even make new glovebox inserts or taillights or interior quarter panels or LF fenders…etc. And lots of DMCH solutions have been cheap garbage. I’ve personally had my headlights go out at night more than once before I swapped to back to DMCEU/factory style.

If they do make a car, it’ll be worse than a factory early VIN imo.


Edit: I thought those leggings with the logo were photoshopped… Just went on the website and found out they are really trying to sell that shit…

[Michael]

Wow.

It always amazes me how much drama pervades in this small community.

Honestly who cares what DMCH does anymore? We have other companies here and in Europe nowadays. Yes they don’t have the NOS parts, but they are working hard to reproduce what they can. If you get a C&D, just ignore it.

Next topic…
Will DMCH build a "new" car?
68126

They can’t even make new glovebox inserts or taillights or interior quarter panels or LF fenders…etc. And lots of DMCH solutions have been cheap garbage. I’ve personally had my headlights go out at night more than once before I swapped to back to DMCEU/factory style.

If they do make a car, it’ll be worse than a factory early VIN imo.


Edit: I thought those leggings with the logo were photoshopped… Just went on the website and found out they are really trying to sell that shit…

Wonders out loud about the drama when it's just a discussion.

Goes on to add to said drama with more discussion.

I guess if it's your viewpoints, then it's not drama?

[81dmc]

I guess if it's your viewpoints, then it's not drama?

Well obviously





Guess I’ll go crawl back in my hole again.

[DaLoreanman]

I am new to the DMC Talk. I read people’s complaints of others and it makes me curious as to what is and is not factual. I have no reason to cast aspersions. I try to judge fairly based on history and facts to establish a baseline. So, I did a background search on the 2 contentious Trademark infringement parties that this thread was initially written about….

Plaintiff: DMC-Texas

Litigation and subsequent settlement agreement between DMC-Texas and Sally Delorean in 2014 lead to DMC-Texas obtaining royalties from Universal Studios that previously went to John Z. Delorean’s estate…
https://www.hodgsonruss.com/newsroom-publications-10663.html.

DMC-Texas’ litigation appears to have benefitted the company favorable financially. At this point, sending a cease & desist (C&D) letter to other Delorean businesses is minimal financial cost with respect to the ROI it may potentially generate. Consumers in the Delorean community that are angered by the DMC-Texas C&D letters will indeed buy less DMC product, resulting in lost revenue to DMC-Texas. DMC-Texas may have done a risk assessment and determined that it is financially advisable to still pursue C&D letters regardless of how it may be perceived in the community - this is just my feeling, and it may not be completely accurate.

Defendant: DeloreanRental.com

The person that appears to have started this thread, Jason A. (according to one post), is the party that brought up this C&D issue.
Surprisingly (or not), this is not Jason’s first run-in with copyright infringement. The Chicago Cubs previously brought a copyright infringement case against him and business partners…
https://www.govinfo.gov/app/details/USCOURTS-ilnd-1_16-cv-09140

I do not know whether Jason was found guilty in the Cubs infringement case or will settle with DMC-Texas. However, there is a common trend in this thread: using other parties' property (intellectual or physical) for one’s own gains. I understand that we live in a free marketplace society – I hope that DMC and Jason are fair to one another during any court proceedings (if it comes to that).

Unfortunately, if the past is any indication of the future, both Jason and DMC will probably capitalize on other’s previously-owned intellectual property or Deloreans themselves for personal, professional and/or financial gains. It is up to you, the consumer, to determine whether you want to work with entities that abuse that privilege.

[DMCVegas]

To anyone else who does not like this (or any other) topic, for whatever reason, you can simply stop reading and ignore it. Discussions about a specific topic should not influence your participation in the community.

Rest assured it isn't anything like that at all. I can handle discussions about sometimes sensitive topics. I even know how to leave things alone and walk away when need be. But rest assured this isn't the case here for myself, and quite likely many others.

The DeLorean community is becoming more and more toxic.

Some of it may be people trying to inject politics and personal opinions whenever they can, some may be outright trolling. Most of that doesn't bother me because I can just tune most of that out. But it doesn't help other people who are looking for support and community. Case in point, right now over on a Facebook group for DeLorean Restoration Projects, someone posted a picture of their spreadsheet containing their budget for parts. Support from others and encouragement. Until there comes along some nasty comment shaming the poster, calling them "DMCH's bitch" for buying parts from them. Not advice on a better source for parts, but a direct insult to the OP. Seriously, what is the entire fucking point of that?

I've seen the online community migrate from USENET to DMCNews, and then watched the first successful schism to DMCTalk here. Then I saw the next one for DMCToday. Then yet another to Facebook, and now those groups have fractured apart. And with every split things just become worse and worse. Instead of sticking with a single community with codes of conduct where we either respect one another or leave, everyone throws an absolute temper tantrum and stomps off to create their own little digital fiefdom elsewhere...until that one too just goes through the same pathetic cycle where people just move on and it starts again but with more anger and bitterness.

Make no mistake though, it's not just the online community. It's happening in real life too. More than once so far I have been caught in the middle of DeLorean people feuding with one another and practically demanded to take a side against another person or people. I'm tired of it. So I decided to just ghost everyone equally. The miniscule number of people whom I'm still friends with online are essentially ones who have been benign all this time. The Facebook groups I've monitored are all ones where people actually help one another. And even then I've not just left many groups, but I'm lucky if I go online once a week now. The media exposure is nasty enough to contend with. Which is why I deleted Facebook off my phone, along with Twitter which has been deactivated, and I've just declined to join others. But the final step was essentially just abandoning people in real life as well. I'm not going to take sides, or even passively take part in all of this fighting and battling of egos.

Sure the same could be said of practically every other club out there. But this is the community I chose to be apart of. In fact, I've spent over nearly 26 years being apart of this community, and come March I will have owned a DeLorean for over half of my actual life. It has been a huge part of my life that influenced and caused everything from my career and even marriage existing. And I'm telling you right now that I don't like what it has become.

Make no mistake, it isn't because I'm upset that I'm not getting attention, or influencing other people. I know who I am, and who I am not. In the grand scheme of things I am an absolute nobody. I checked out of the community for a while and things went on without me. I was not missed then, and know that I never will be in the future. But it isn't right to treat new owners and prospective ones who still rank as enthusiasts like shit, let alone teach them that they need to act in these negative ways as well. These people deserve the same community that I was first apart of. Mentors who helped educate. Brethren who encouraged action. And a community that cared and answered questions with compassion, no matter how trivial, repetitive, or outright dumb they may have been. That's all gone now. What's replaced it is a bunch of people who want to scream snarky insults, trash talk vendors (which why the hell is it such an in-thing to hate Houston?) and always dominate to create some sort of authoritative image for themselves. Even if it is only in their own mind.

I never bought a Corvette because I found Corvette owners to be stereotypical assholes (which come to find out I've since encountered some hardcore owners who agree with me and urged me to look past that), and I never wanted to be associated with those kind of people. I liked the DeLorean community because if there was a typical DeLorean owner, it was someone eccentric. Pleasant enough to be around, awkward at times perhaps, but good people none the less. That has clearly changed. I may have mis-stepped in the past, but I choose to make a conscious decision to try a be a better person than I was in the past. More importantly, I'm not taking sides. I'm not getting caught up in gossip. I don't necessarily think that I'm better than anyone else, but I sure as hell know that I don't want to become worse.

I don't recognize a good portion, if not the majority, of this community any longer. I'm not naïve though. I realize that we cannot go backwards to the past. But what you can do is create a better community going forward for others.

[dtavres]

As I've said many times in the past few years, Fake DMC's plan has been to sell the company (or in this case, license the name) - which is why they try to bully and intimidate DeLorean owners with Cease & Desist letters - because don't want any competition - or DeLorean owners - to use our car's name... and now the proof is here. The car is ACTUALLY the "Italdesign DaVinci"


Fake DMC is just selling / licensing the name on our cars to a company who's "going to" produce their electric car... here's an article from 2019... and the logo that matches Fake DMC's animated graphic... https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/pictures/italdesign-davinci-geneva-motor-show/


So just like in 2007 when Fake DMC started their annual announcements of "New" DeLoreans being built - https://www.foxnews.com/story/texas-entrepreneur-set-to-start-building-delorean-cars - now they can make more money on our car's name.


So no, NOT a "new" DeLorean - just a "new" license agreement... Let's see if Fake DMC puts any of that money toward better parts, lower prices, or customer service.

68128

68129

[Michael]

My bet is Vinfast, but that DaVinci logo looks closer.

They both look so similar.

DMCH: IDK, but somebody's gettin' sued.

https://vinfastauto.us/

[dtavres]

My bet is Vinfast, but that DaVinci logo looks closer.

Interesting... it is close... Does Vinfast have any gullwing cars?

[Helirich]

I need to see the side of that car, but I don’t like the back at all.

[Michael]

The DaVinci looks to be identical to the teaser pic that's been out for the past few months...I mean identical.

Vinfast however, has all their ducks in a row and have already announced bringing EVs to the US market. A lot of their executive members have LinkedIn profiles stating they are working for the new DeLorean project. (Again, let me state that I have been reading a lot and some of my info may have been cross contaminated with large doses of bourbon). In short all the online info points to Vinfast. All the digital pics/teasers point to DaVinci. I can't imagine they would be happy about their design being used without them having some skin on the game, then again do silhouettes of a car fall under trademark usage?

Perhaps DaVinci(or Italdesign) will be designing the car for Vinfast?

Disclaimer: Discussing this in a rational and adult manor, may be interpretated as "drama" to some people.

[Drive Stainless]

Disclaimer: Discussing this in a rational and adult manner, may be interpreted as "drama" to some people.

:werd:

[BLWNAWY]

I never bought a Corvette because I found Corvette owners to be stereotypical assholes (which come to find out I've since encountered some hardcore owners who agree with me and urged me to look past that), and I never wanted to be associated with those kind of people.

Great, well-expressed comments, Robert. I personally have avoided facebook, twitter, and other social media too. Just don't need that stuff.

While probably not the right forum for me to address the above comment, I found it interesting. I have always had an eclectic interest in cars - many street rods, and for a while a '32 Ford hot rod roadster, a '54 Chevy, supercharged DeLorean, and tiny Honda Insight all at the same time. But in 2002, with a retirement income and a new good-paying job, I purchased a low mileage C5 Corvette convertible. The chance to do my 20-mile commute top down in 11 degree weather, in a car that went 160 and did 12 second ETs, was just too good to be true. I had no interest in Corvette clubs or other owners, I just did it for me. And a strange thing happened. Within 2 years the DeLorean was gone, and after 20 years the Corvette is still here. With 100k on the clock it has only been in the dealership twice, for minor stuff. It will probably be the final car I own, already promised to my 6 year old granddaughter in 12 years if I and it make it that long. Don't avoid Corvettes (C5 and up) because of "those kind of people", because as you pointed out they are here, too, and everywhere. Get one for you, and you may never look back.

As for DMCH I hope it didn't come across as me being one of the "haters". I know it was just business, but I do think this community has the right to know the history and how they affected some competitors.

I will now crawl back under my rock.

[Rich W]

I need to see the side of that car, but I don’t like the back at all.


https://www.netcarshow.com/italdesign/2019-davinci_concept/

[dmcerik]

Rest assured it isn't anything like that at all. I can handle discussions about sometimes sensitive topics. I even know how to leave things alone and walk away when need be. But rest assured this isn't the case here for myself, and quite likely many others.

The DeLorean community is becoming more and more toxic.



Plus 1 to you DMCVegas.

I'm reading "Ready Player Two" and thought your post paired well with this excerpt from the book.


After a few sessions with Sean, I'd realized that the best thing for my mental
health would be to abandon social media altogether. So I had. And it was
the right choice. My anger abated, and my wounded pride began to heal.
I'd finally gained enough distance from my addiction to realize some-
thing. Human beings were never meant to participate in a worldwide social
network comprised of billions of people. We were designed by evolution to
be hunter-gatherers, with the mental capacity to interact and socialize with
the other members of our tribe--a tribe made up of a few hundred other
people at most. Interacting with thousands or even millions of other peo-
ple on a daily basis was way too much for our ape-descended melons to
handle. That was why social media had been gradually driving the entire
population of the world insane since it emerged back around the turn of
the century.
I was even beginning to wonder if the invention of a worldwide social
network was actually the
"Great Filter" that theoretically caused all techno-
logical civilizations to go extinct, instead of nuclear weapons or climate
change. Maybe every time an intelligent species grew advanced enough to
invent a global computer network, they would then develop some form of
social media, which would immediately fill these beings with such an in-
tense hatred for one another that they ended up wiping themselves out
within four or five decades.
Only time would tell.


I started in this community in the mid 90's. Was very active up until some life events mid 2000's, but lurked the entire time. I see old names on here I remember from when I first started, amazed that we still own our original cars. Some of us now a member of the "Half our life of ownership" club. I'm really happy to see them on here even though I haven't seen or talked to them in over 15yrs. I've never joined any other Delorean forum, for various reasons, but mainly the platforms they are on. While I think the DMCTalk interface is way too old, it's still nice.
I also see some really disgusting people on this forum. They bring to the conversation nothing of importance, but just cheap shots and petty bickering. Mocking people for trying to be helpful. It's sad. And not the community I praised on page 165 of Stainless Steel Illusions. Maybe some of you are rolling your eyes. Telling me through the screen to stop being so dramatic, that this is just healthy debate, or I'm looking too fondly of the past. Whatever it is, the Delorean community before all your shit posting was great. It felt like a community you wanted to really get to know people in. Maybe your world has always been shit posting, so you don't know any different. Think on that.

[Malevy]

I am new to the DMC Talk. I read peopleÂ’s complaints of others and it makes me curious as to what is and is not factual. I have no reason to cast aspersions. I try to judge fairly based on history and facts to establish a baseline.

Your research starts too late, you need to go back way before 2014 to set the baseline..

I think we can all agree that DMCH did not create/invent any of the IP associated with "DeLorean" including the "DMC" logos. They all pre-date the existence of DMCH, and there are some "Dead" registrations from the original DeLorean Motor Company to confirm this is fact.

DeLorean Motor Company went in to receivership in 1982. Also fact.

IIRC, DMCH was created sometime around 1996/1997. They registered a company name in the state of Texas, then purchased the remaining parts from the KPAC warehouse in Ohio. A few years later (2001?) DMCH registered the stylized logo (which appeared on documents from DMC in the late 1970's). I have found no previous USPTO registrations for the stylized logo, which is a likely reason they were able to register it (even though it existed 25 years earlier). The block letter logo was sill in the USPTO as "Dead". KPAC never owned the name, logos, trademarks, etc. This is also all verifiable fact.

The name and artwork for DeLorean and DMC were in the public domain from 1982. No idea who owned it since DMC no longer existed. Some say JZD personally owned it, but if that is true- he failed to enforce his ownership and therefore lost his claim to it. The "Sally DeLorean" case you reference indicated that JZD had been receiving payments from Universal Studios until his death at which time DMCH told Universal they owned it, and would need to get those payments (For the life of me, I can't figure out why Universal just took their word for it, and did no basic research on it)... That is what I believe initiated the legal action of Sally VS DMCH, she wanted to know why the checks from Universal had stop coming in. While I can't claim this is all Fact, I was there when the community freely used the DeLorean name and logos without any C&D letters, or enforcement of any kind.

Because we know DMCH did not create the name/logo, a legitimate claim to it would mean they purchased it from the owner. This is the question I have been asking for 20 years, and James pretty much answered it earlier in this discussion.

Now, do you believe that it is OK to claim ownership of 25 year old art work designed by someone else that was then public domain for 20 or so years? And if you do, is it then OK to use ownership of that artwork to then claim you own the name of the company that previously created said artwork? Those are two very big leaps that I (and many others) cannot make. But, I will say- It is impressive that they got away with it.

[Michael]

A lot of words

Now THAT'S drama!

[DrWin]

So I decided to just ghost everyone equally.

Class act. :cool:

Actually, I missed you, even though I don't know you and you left before I got my car and joined the community.
Researching, as best I could, before buying my car I read a lot of DMCtalk.org and I really liked your posts. I have a few of your explanations printed out, hanging in the garage.

When I joined I noticed that you never replied to anything I posted as I had hoped you would.
As in all other (internet) groups there is attrition of people for all sorts of reasons, but it's sad when people have to leave because the debate culture has become toxic.

[DMCVegas]

Great, well-expressed comments, Robert. I personally have avoided facebook, twitter, and other social media too. Just don't need that stuff.

Thank you very much. After disconnecting most all social media, I can honestly say that I'm much happier. I find that it is extremely distasteful. To be bunt I find that 99% of social media is nothing but people vying for attention. Some if it is because people are trying to be *famous* in one way or another, or it's just synthetic lies masquerading as commercial advertising. And the two main ways in which people do this are either by being braggadocios, or feigning tragedy.

I find life to be vexing enough with my own problems that I don't need other people pushing their bullshit on me. Especially with marketing algorithms whose sole purpose is to generate advertising and sales revenue at my expense which simply exacerbate the problem further. Thus I'm much happier since I don't have to subjected to the frustrations and problems of others.



While probably not the right forum for me to address the above comment, I found it interesting. I have always had an eclectic interest in cars - many street rods, and for a while a '32 Ford hot rod roadster, a '54 Chevy, supercharged DeLorean, and tiny Honda Insight all at the same time. But in 2002, with a retirement income and a new good-paying job, I purchased a low mileage C5 Corvette convertible. The chance to do my 20-mile commute top down in 11 degree weather, in a car that went 160 and did 12 second ETs, was just too good to be true. I had no interest in Corvette clubs or other owners, I just did it for me. And a strange thing happened. Within 2 years the DeLorean was gone, and after 20 years the Corvette is still here. With 100k on the clock it has only been in the dealership twice, for minor stuff. It will probably be the final car I own, already promised to my 6 year old granddaughter in 12 years if I and it make it that long. Don't avoid Corvettes (C5 and up) because of "those kind of people", because as you pointed out they are here, too, and everywhere. Get one for you, and you may never look back.

Two things here:

1. That's a great story. I encourage you to write it down. In fact, break out a note pad and jot that topic down, the reason you bought the car, as well as whatever other fun experiences you've had with the car. Then expand upon each of them in a collection of other letters. You can type them up, but I would say to write them down by hand. Record those experiences. Then when your granddaughter inherits the car, the letters go with it so that she can read them. A portfolio for a car is great, and stories to build a history of a vehicle are even better. But with handwritten letters you have something more. She too will connect with the car the same as you have. Years later after you're gone (because none of us gets out of this world alive), she'll have those letters. She can read every word in your voice, and even feel the imprints on the paper that you made when you wrote everything just for her. She can connect with you for years to come.

2. I cannot lie, I have thought about another marque for a fresh start. I considered a C3...along with shaving the badges and taillights off in order to convert it into a quasi-Pontiac Banshee. But I honestly cannot do it. Years ago when I was in Houston (where I actually lived next to the German fellow in Conroe who owned BLWNAWY and the LEDs in the engine compartment he was so proud of) I heard a late model GTO rumbling through an underpass. I drove one years ago at a GM Test Track event when they used to have those, and loved the car. I ran some numbers in my head as to what one would cost, but decided against it. The DeLorean is simply my car. Save for the absence of cupholders (which resulted in a perplexed Bill Collins, on his 2nd or more gin in tonic in hand running to catch a hotel shuttle in the darkness, being chased and interrogated by me en route with the assaulting question of why he didn't think to install cupholders in these cars), it is the perfect car. No matter what else I drive, I'm always sad that I'm not in my DeLorean. That's how I know I love the car, and honestly why I've migrated to pickup trucks. They have a completely different purpose and will never conflict with the DeLorean.

Never say never, of course. But one thing is for certain: The desire to join a club, go to car shows, parades, whatever, has been extinguished for good. I'd rather be alone.



As for DMCH I hope it didn't come across as me being one of the "haters". I know it was just business, but I do think this community has the right to know the history and how they affected some competitors.

I will now crawl back under my rock.

No, I don't view you in that way. Not at all. I do think that there is a lot of information about the marque, which at this point is a fading oral history, that people are not aware of.

While the DeLorean is a car of the 1980's in terms of manufacturing and marketing, it really did not come into it's own and mature until the Internet revolution of the 1990's. I don't want to go into extensive detail here as I don't want to clog this thread with the minutiae of it all, there are some key points that I think people should understand.


Internet car culture was born of 3 marques that led the way: DeLorean, Miata, and VW. We laid out the ground work for communications, information, organization, etc.
Until the mass communication of the Internet, you had to wait weeks, if not months to receive the solution an owner needed to resolve an issue. Especially since owners within driving distance of a repair facility would be denied help in order maintain profits. Suddenly cars became quickly repairable.
As repair knowledge of our cars spread, the anxiety of owning one was diminished.
When DMCH took over KAPAC's inventory, they discovered massive hidden caches of parts long thought exhausted which further made our cars attainable.
Given the surging popularity, parts sales shot up.


Now at this time, we had a very nasty vendor, DeLorean One in Chatsworth, California. The owner, Ed Bernstein, was at one point a genuinely nice person who completely changed overnight. He monitored the DML and started recording the VIN numbers people posted of their cars. Now this wasn't to brag, but because in the early days when people had questions, you needed to know their VIN in order to know if they had certain revisions to their cars. Otterstat relocations, superseded A/C driers, etc. But Ed was recording the VINs of each person who posted and compiled a blacklist. If you were ever posted on the DML, you were automatically on that list. And if you were on that list, Ed would refuse to ever sell you DeLorean parts again. Case closed.

Ed eventually became more and more enraged once DMCH popped up and were not just competition, but they enabled to marque to continue on without him. His goal was to strike fear into people, and it damn sure worked for a while until Houston's parts supply came onto the scene.

No relationship with a vendor is going to be perfect. Although insight as a buyer for an independent service center is very valuable and I do appreciate you sharing. That is important. Sure as customer I've had a couple of hiccups with DMCH, but they're a damn sight better than others such as Forney and Garden Grove were. And that I think is the crux of it all. When you dealt with declining service centers, and one big vendor who threw his weight around an bullied people, you kept your damned mouth shut. You didn't want to risk a parts embargo resulting in an undrivable car because you said the wrong thing and pissed a vendor off. Yes, nothing has been perfect. There are definitely some questionable things that may not, or even may have valid reasons here and there that DMCH either won't or can't comment on. But the big thing is that despite the bad mouthing, Houston AFAIK has never ever banned someone from purchasing parts. And that right there while being the biggest benefit for the community is Houston's biggest vulnerability. Because unlike the vendors of days gone by, there is no fear of repercussion. That I think is something we should all consider.

[DMCVegas]

Plus 1 to you DMCVegas.

I'm reading "Ready Player Two" and thought your post paired well with this excerpt from the book.


After a few sessions with Sean, I'd realized that the best thing for my mental
health would be to abandon social media altogether. So I had. And it was
the right choice. My anger abated, and my wounded pride began to heal.
I'd finally gained enough distance from my addiction to realize some-
thing. Human beings were never meant to participate in a worldwide social
network comprised of billions of people. We were designed by evolution to
be hunter-gatherers, with the mental capacity to interact and socialize with
the other members of our tribe--a tribe made up of a few hundred other
people at most. Interacting with thousands or even millions of other peo-
ple on a daily basis was way too much for our ape-descended melons to
handle. That was why social media had been gradually driving the entire
population of the world insane since it emerged back around the turn of
the century.
I was even beginning to wonder if the invention of a worldwide social
network was actually the
"Great Filter" that theoretically caused all techno-
logical civilizations to go extinct, instead of nuclear weapons or climate
change. Maybe every time an intelligent species grew advanced enough to
invent a global computer network, they would then develop some form of
social media, which would immediately fill these beings with such an in-
tense hatred for one another that they ended up wiping themselves out
within four or five decades.
Only time would tell.


I started in this community in the mid 90's. Was very active up until some life events mid 2000's, but lurked the entire time. I see old names on here I remember from when I first started, amazed that we still own our original cars. Some of us now a member of the "Half our life of ownership" club. I'm really happy to see them on here even though I haven't seen or talked to them in over 15yrs. I've never joined any other Delorean forum, for various reasons, but mainly the platforms they are on. While I think the DMCTalk interface is way too old, it's still nice.
I also see some really disgusting people on this forum. They bring to the conversation nothing of importance, but just cheap shots and petty bickering. Mocking people for trying to be helpful. It's sad. And not the community I praised on page 165 of Stainless Steel Illusions. Maybe some of you are rolling your eyes. Telling me through the screen to stop being so dramatic, that this is just healthy debate, or I'm looking too fondly of the past. Whatever it is, the Delorean community before all your shit posting was great. It felt like a community you wanted to really get to know people in. Maybe your world has always been shit posting, so you don't know any different. Think on that.


Thank you for the kind words. I've read both RPO & RPT and did enjoy them both. I don't know if part of the criticism of the first book ever made it's way into the inspiration for the sequel, but you can certainly tell that Cline had moved on in his life and had new perspectives. The quote is a very accurate one for contemplating society. Story wise that book echoed concepts of both The Matrix and Virtuosity, but does have some great ideas such as this. Anyway, the criticism in question I felt was very valid. In a nutshell it was addressing the near fetishisms of nostalgia to such an extreme that one can be so attached to the past that they neglect the present and the future. It has been something that has bothered me more and more as I get older. A great quote from Hagakure comes to mind:


“It is said that what is called "the spirit of an age" is something to which one cannot return. That this spirit gradually dissipates is due to the world's coming to an end. For this reason, although one would like to change today's world back to the spirit of one hundred years or more ago, it cannot be done. Thus it is important to make the best out of every generation.”

That is why I choose my words carefully in a previous post. I don't want things to go back to the way they were. I wish that we could simply improve the community as a whole and expel the toxic culture we have now. Jovial snark is fine, but there does come a point where it's just plain trolling. And that is just something that I cannot abide by.

In a previous post I wrote about social media and it's negative impact upon me. Something else too is actual television media.

I enjoy cooking. Breaking bread, let alone the preparation of a meal contains many rituals for us humans, no matter what our culture is. Think about a cup of tea, or coffee. You measure certain accompaniments such as sugar to a precise amount. You nearly always grip the cup a certain way as you stir. You sip a certain way to test flavor or temperature. It is all ritual. Now when I cook, especially a new recipe, I crave feedback. Not simply for accolade, but to try and ensure I have created something I and others enjoy. That is a huge pleasure one can receive in cooking. If something isn't as good as it can been, then I take notes and seek to improve upon things next time. Not a problem. But then I started watching cooking competition shows. I would see how contestants who failed would be humiliated. Even if the prepared a great dish a group of judges would always find a way to undermine their pride so as to pick a "winner" who was supposed to be flawless. I actually started aping this attitude. If something didn't turn out right, let alone absolutely perfect with no advice, I'd become angry with myself just like the people on TV. I would damn near start to hate myself. It robbed me of all the joy of cooking. I had to change, though I couldn't go back to who I was. So I learned and moved on. I stopped watching these cooking competition shows. The funny thing is that now if I ever seen one, I have nothing but disdain for the judges instead of the contestants.

This also came to what was for myself a profound realization late one night. I was watching TV and saw an old episode of The Outer Limits, followed by Alfred Hitchcock Presents. Both good episodes, but it made me realize the stark difference between past television and present. These shows were not just playhouses, but they were products unto themselves. Actors got together, dressed up, and put on a show for the viewer. And all that was demanded of you the viewer was to be entertained. Sure there were commercial breaks to make money from sponsors, but your entire job as a viewer was simply to watch and be entertained. Once it was over they simply hoped that they had put on a great enough show so that you'd tune in next week to repeat the cycle.

That is no longer the case today.

Now for someone who watches TV, shows place allot of fucking demands on viewers. It is no longer a one-way street. Don't get me wrong, there is some fine storytelling out there. But shows now demand that in return for watching I'm supposed to invest not just my time but emotions into these characters. As if they're real people, and as if their lives are somehow tied to mine. Hell, even old fashioned watercooler talk has been commodified. Look at AMC network and how they can't just have a single show, but then have to have "Talking xxx..." after shows to discuss what the viewer just watched.

Then we have cable news. To which it doesn't matter what side of the spectrum you're on, it's all garbage. 90% or more of what is on CNN or Fox News isn't actual news reporting. It's morons sitting there espousing opinions and telling you what to think.

Why are things this way now? I always felt that this movie scene sums up our current media in all forms perfectly as to why it is the way it now is:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G6xu-J_Dmc

We're all nothing by Revenue Generating Units, and antagonizing us is the easiest way to keep us hooked.

My solution was to dump cable TV. I bought an antenna and a house amp. I kept the cable modem for internet access and ran the line for the modem directly after I ripped out the splitter to replace it with the house amp. I get 80 channels off air (most of which, sure, I don't watch since it's either home shopping, religious programming, or variations of these in Spanish, Vietnamese, Korean, and/or Armenian). I get my local news, sports events in higher quality thanks to the lack of video compression, classic TV reruns I like, and most importantly it brought psychological balance. I don't get cable news, I don't get reality TV, and I sure as hell don't get the frustration that comes along with them. Got a couple of Apple TV units to complement the OTA TV for things I want to watch, and life is better. I'm happier now, and have more money in my pocket to boot.

I don't know what works for everyone, but it sure as hell did work for me. There's way to much toxicity here nowadays. It wasn't always like this, but I have to question why? Perhaps if more of us disconnected from media and actually engaged one another things would turn around.

P.S. Didn't I buy an engine from you?

[DMCVegas]

Class act. :cool:

Actually, I missed you, even though I don't know you and you left before I got my car and joined the community.
Researching, as best I could, before buying my car I read a lot of DMCtalk.org and I really liked your posts. I have a few of your explanations printed out, hanging in the garage.

When I joined I noticed that you never replied to anything I posted as I had hoped you would.
As in all other (internet) groups there is attrition of people for all sorts of reasons, but it's sad when people have to leave because the debate culture has become toxic.

I am quite literally speechless. Thank you for the complement and kind words.

I started winding down posts initially since I don't like to do "me too!" posts. If someone has a solution to a question that's already posted, I don't feel the need to respond. At that point I'm just purposefully inserting myself into a conversation simply for my own ego. I've seen lots of people do that over the years, and I don't care for it. Partially because I realized that with the hours I've spent reading books, in libraries searching microfiche page by page, writing correspondence, etc., I realized that had I spent that same amount of time at university I would likely hold a doctoral degree by now. But mostly because I do not wish to present myself as some sort of guru that either has all the answers, or worse yet acts as though I am the only one with any answers. I fail to see virtue in either scenario.

Did I do the right thing in ghosting everyone? No, I don't feel as though it was 100% right. It was the right thing to do for me, but not to others. I regret that things had to go that way. Make no mistake, it was not just two or more people on opposite sides of a single subject. It was multiple people, and it was different subjects with entirely different groups of people to those others. It saddens me a bit that things happened that way, but they had to.

Will I return to the message boards? I don't know. There is already much information going around and plenty of volunteers, I'm quite simply no one special. No different than anyone else.

Funny enough I did decide to take up a new hobby: fishing. I then discovered that my pole is too long for my compact car and even the bed of my pickup truck. So as it turns out I'll need the DeLorean and my luggage rack just simply to go fishing. No matter what this car finds a new way to always become a necessity in my life...

One day I'd love to make it to Eurofest to see the remnants of the factory. Perhaps we'll meet there sometime. And perhaps I will become more involved with the community...at least online.

They say you should become the change you wish to see. I don't know if I have the strength for that anymore on a community which has become so alien, and which has become so comfortable with the negativity. Or to put it another way...

They also say that if you meet an asshole during the course of your day, you met an asshole. If you run into nothing but assholes all day long, chances are you're the one who is an asshole. Am I the asshole here? It is something I have to ask myself, and removing myself from the equation allowed me to evade seeking an answer for the time being...

[SonnyV]

Houston AFAIK has never ever banned someone from purchasing parts.

They banned long-time owner Chad K. from buying parts over sharing memes about their failure to build cars.

[Timeless]

After disconnecting most all social media, I can honestly say that I'm much happier. I find that it is extremely distasteful. To be bunt I find that 99% of social media is nothing but people vying for attention.
I find life to be vexing enough with my own problems that I don't need other people pushing their bullshit on me. Especially with marketing algorithms whose sole purpose is to generate advertising and sales revenue at my expense which simply exacerbate the problem further. Thus I'm much happier since I don't have to subjected to the frustrations and problems of others.
I too have ZERO social media accounts. They are terrible and nothing but garbage - don't get me started about America hating Zuckerberg & Co. Pure junk that nobody needs period.



My solution was to dump cable TV
I have done this as well.

[DMCVegas]

They banned long-time owner Chad K. from buying parts over sharing memes about their failure to build cars.

And this ladies and gentlemen is precisely what I, and others have been talking about. This is the precise kind of toxic post that is ruining the community.

Let's break things down a bit here, shall we?


Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Do you actually have any? If no, you're just spreading rumors and lies.
There is a much longer list of people who have likely agitated DMCH long before even he came onto the scene that are far more likely to be "banned" from purchasing parts if Houston ever did such a thing. A couple of memes are not going to have that level of impact that he (let alone you) think they would have.
Last I heard online, Chad was complaining that DMC denied working on his car because he had a homemade carburetor rigged up to his engine. A system which if I recall he was vehemently dissatisfied with. Still, it was hardly a case if him being "banned". Declining to perform work on something that is clearly out of your scope of support is hardly being ostracized. That's like complaining your ISP has banned you from tech support for refusing to work on your printer or network.
This incident was a prime "I told you so" moment when I voiced opposition to the lack of documentation on installation and tuning so that any owner could independently maintain their cars. Something that many trolls just decided to pile onto me for (and Chad too)...yet it turns out it was indeed a valid concern.
Finally, you're posting from an anonymous account. Your words carry no weight, let alone validity within the community as a whole.


That last point is a very crucial one. You see, certainly you had a laugh with the gag account, and I'm sure others have as well. But what's the point now? The joke has long expired, yet you keep on posting under this account. So what is the purpose in it now except to try and maintain anonymity so that you can troll in order to cause and perpetuate discord among people? If you had the courage, you'd post under your real identity, but you don't want to be accountable for your words, do you?

The biggest thing here that amuses me is this: That whole "Sonny V" shit happened 2 decades ago, yet you, and others like you, just won't let it go. It's the only thing you have. But James has since apologized and like the rest of the community has moved on. The thing here isn't simply that you can't move on. And it is with all of the fake accounts such as this one, you're doing the exact same thing he did, and the exact same thing you all use to try and discredit him discredits you too. You have become what you hate.

If people claim James Espy was dishonest and untrustworthy because of such actions, then the absolute same is true of you.

[MrChocky]

And this ladies and gentlemen is precisely what I, and others have been talking about. This is the precise kind of toxic post that is ruining the community.

Let's break things down a bit here, shall we?



Let's not. Regardless of the merits of what SonnyV/Chat whoever did, it's your posts I'm finding incredibly aggressive and angry, and certainly toxic. Speaking very much for myself,
I don't care for your attitude. Let's review what you said to *me* upon my entry into the community:

"Long story short, you are not classic car owner material. I'm sorry, but that's just the truth from what I've read. Can that change for you? I don''t know. But at this stage of the game, I wouldn't even recommend a VW bug for you, let alone anything without a warranty."

Now I have 2 cars and help people every day. I guess you didn't see that coming. Fortunately, others had a higher opinion of me (thanks, thugs, you know who you are). I don't get on with everybody,
I sure don't live up to everyone's standards of how to "behave", but I'm here, and I'm involved. Point is, if we start being selective about who is "allowed" to be an owner/member of the community or
some old boys club, then I think we have a serious problem.

Don't get me wrong, I know you've been a very very long time member of the community, you've almost certainly helped far more people than I'm ever going to, and plenty of people probably
respect you greatly (probably myself, if I were to look in detail at your posts). However I have been online as long as you have (no small feat); I don't particularly think attitudes have changed much,
although Facebook has somewhat lowered the bar to entry.

Let's just say I firmly reject your condemnation of most everyone because they aren't like you are. Really these posts seem churlish, get-off-my-lawn-moments.

What I'm not seeing in any of your posts is any kind of suggestions for improvements from anyone, any conciliatory gestures from yourself, or anything of that nature.

Happy to take this private if that's to your liking.

Best wishes.

[SonnyV]

And this ladies and gentlemen is precisely what I, and others have been talking about. This is the precise kind of toxic post that is ruining the community.

Let's break things down a bit here, shall we?


Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Do you actually have any? If no, you're just spreading rumors and lies.
There is a much longer list of people who have likely agitated DMCH long before even he came onto the scene that are far more likely to be "banned" from purchasing parts if Houston ever did such a thing. A couple of memes are not going to have that level of impact that he (let alone you) think they would have.
Last I heard online, Chad was complaining that DMC denied working on his car because he had a homemade carburetor rigged up to his engine. A system which if I recall he was vehemently dissatisfied with. Still, it was hardly a case if him being "banned". Declining to perform work on something that is clearly out of your scope of support is hardly being ostracized. That's like complaining your ISP has banned you from tech support for refusing to work on your printer or network.
This incident was a prime "I told you so" moment when I voiced opposition to the lack of documentation on installation and tuning so that any owner could independently maintain their cars. Something that many trolls just decided to pile onto me for (and Chad too)...yet it turns out it was indeed a valid concern.
Finally, you're posting from an anonymous account. Your words carry no weight, let alone validity within the community as a whole.


That last point is a very crucial one. You see, certainly you had a laugh with the gag account, and I'm sure others have as well. But what's the point now? The joke has long expired, yet you keep on posting under this account. So what is the purpose in it now except to try and maintain anonymity so that you can troll in order to cause and perpetuate discord among people? If you had the courage, you'd post under your real identity, but you don't want to be accountable for your words, do you?

The biggest thing here that amuses me is this: That whole "Sonny V" shit happened 2 decades ago, yet you, and others like you, just won't let it go. It's the only thing you have. But James has since apologized and like the rest of the community has moved on. The thing here isn't simply that you can't move on. And it is with all of the fake accounts such as this one, you're doing the exact same thing he did, and the exact same thing you all use to try and discredit him discredits you too. You have become what you hate.

If people claim James Espy was dishonest and untrustworthy because of such actions, then the absolute same is true of you.

Here's your proof:

68136

[SonnyV]

As for why I'm keeping my anonymity; your sanctimonious rantings don't change facts. The fact is DMCH will blacklist you for sharing memes, Bill Robertson tried to get two owners fired from their jobs over a disagreement, online stalkers track your every movement to tag you whenever you go out.

I'm not signing my name/face to posts and risking winding up blacklisted from the largest supplier of DeLorean parts because I laughed at a meme or said what they're doing with the logo is wrong so that way people like YOU can see a different name on a screen.

As for my name; yes, it's fake. I couldn’t think of a better fake name for posting about DeLoreans online.

[louielouie2000]

Having been in the DeLorean community since the late 90s, I can say there has always been "drama" and trolls. I don't think any of that has necessarily gotten worse... I just think that as some of us get older, we simply have less tolerance for it.

I grew up in a very active classic car family; my Mom and bio Dad restored & sold vintage Corvettes, Camaros, & Harley-Davidsons, and my Mom and Stepdad were very active with their classic Mustang. The DeLorean community is just different from any other I've been around. It attracts a different type of enthusiast, and I'd argue many DeLorean enthusiasts aren't "car people" in the strictest sense. Many aren't mechanically inclined, or don't really care about the mechanical or performance "credentials" of the cars. Instead they love what they feel the car stands for, the underdog history, or are sci-fi lovers... it's much more of an emotional thing. The cars represent something bigger to them, and I think they take absolutely everything personal in regards to the cars, community, vendors, etc. The community is much smaller than others, too... which means there are more opportunities for folks to bond and/or feud, and those ripples spread pretty quickly.

To rope this back to the topic at hand... I think folks in this community just feel such an emotional ownership of their cars, the marque, and have idealistic standards of how they believe the vendors should treat and fit into the legacy of the car/man/company. It's an impossible brief, and no business could please every enthusiast every time with every decision they make. Looking to companies/corporations for moral guidance is just folly anyway. It reminds me of Jay Leno and his deep aversion to our cars because he was personally disappointed in JZD's moral character. Again, this doesn't mean I've agreed with every marketing/business decision DMC-Texas has made. In the end, they are just trying to keep the general public aware of the cars to ensure successive generations interest. I don't necessarily think this is to inflate the value of the company, either. It could simply for Stephen to pass the baton to his son Cameron who runs DMC-California.

[Michael]

The ones that chimed in to say they hate the drama are the only ones creating it.

[Ron]

The ones that chimed in to say they hate the drama are the only ones creating it.
Where did you say that???

[DMCVegas]

As for why I'm keeping my anonymity; your sanctimonious rantings don't change facts. The fact is DMCH will blacklist you for sharing memes, Bill Robertson tried to get two owners fired from their jobs over a disagreement, online stalkers track your every movement to tag you whenever you go out.

I'm not signing my name/face to posts and risking winding up blacklisted from the largest supplier of DeLorean parts because I laughed at a meme or said what they're doing with the logo is wrong so that way people like YOU can see a different name on a screen.

As for my name; yes, it's fake. I couldn’t think of a better fake name for posting about DeLoreans online.

Be definition, it isn't sanctimonious when it is the truth. Your reply here has just further cemented this, and invalidated your statements.

Again, there is a long list of people whom Houston would logically take exception with for comments made publicly which would potentially have repercussions, and someone such as yourself wouldn't even come close to having such a worry for merely liking a meme against them.

So the necessity for anonymity on your behalf clearly does not exist. The only logical reason for it, again, is because you wish to troll others and cause problems, without any consequences for your actions.

Likewise the threat of problems towards your personal safety, and that potentially others in your family is also a lie. If it were indeed real, then why in the world would you continue to antagonize others? If you feel your mere presence here is a problem, then again, why even be apart of such an online community?

Replying with more excuses is futile. You strike me as the kind of person who can never be wrong, and will simply come up with continual excuses. The fact that you're scared of DMCH "banning" you tells me that this clearly isn't your primary account. That you indeed have another where you maintain seemingly friendly communications in order to keep up a friendly appearance. A definite act of cowardice.

Who are you? I don't care enough to find out. But knowing that you are out there doesn't enamor me to maintain public contact with a community when people like you are around. Probably say hello to me, and then trash talk me first chance you get if we met. Again, you're exactly the kind of toxic person we've been talking about.

[DMCVegas]

Let's not. Regardless of the merits of what SonnyV/Chat whoever did, it's your posts I'm finding incredibly aggressive and angry, and certainly toxic. Speaking very much for myself,
I don't care for your attitude. Let's review what you said to *me* upon my entry into the community:

"Long story short, you are not classic car owner material. I'm sorry, but that's just the truth from what I've read. Can that change for you? I don''t know. But at this stage of the game, I wouldn't even recommend a VW bug for you, let alone anything without a warranty."

Now I have 2 cars and help people every day. I guess you didn't see that coming. Fortunately, others had a higher opinion of me (thanks, thugs, you know who you are). I don't get on with everybody,
I sure don't live up to everyone's standards of how to "behave", but I'm here, and I'm involved. Point is, if we start being selective about who is "allowed" to be an owner/member of the community or
some old boys club, then I think we have a serious problem.

Don't get me wrong, I know you've been a very very long time member of the community, you've almost certainly helped far more people than I'm ever going to, and plenty of people probably
respect you greatly (probably myself, if I were to look in detail at your posts). However I have been online as long as you have (no small feat); I don't particularly think attitudes have changed much,
although Facebook has somewhat lowered the bar to entry.

Let's just say I firmly reject your condemnation of most everyone because they aren't like you are. Really these posts seem churlish, get-off-my-lawn-moments.

What I'm not seeing in any of your posts is any kind of suggestions for improvements from anyone, any conciliatory gestures from yourself, or anything of that nature.

Happy to take this private if that's to your liking.

Best wishes.

No, I do not feel as though this is something which needs to be taken offline.

I'm curious as to what the entire context of that conversation was. Both in terms of what all was said (because as others can attest, a statement from me being that short is exceedingly rare), but also where I was on in that moment in time, and what all you said as well to elicit such a response from me.

Louie is absolutely correct in his reply. There isn't much more I can add to it, but it does demonstrate how much of us are quite protective of the community. Much of that comes from owning orphaned cars that have essentially been despised by the world. Certainly there is good natured ribbing up to outright prejudice among other marques, but ours is different. For decades we've essentially had to fight nothing but a stream of disinformation we've had to correct, and people who outright put down our cars. Which I always felt was most likely due to people attempting to open a line of conversation. As one person once put it, "The DeLorean is the car that everyone knows, yet no one knows anything about". Whenever we try and strike up a conversation with someone, as individuals we tend to try and open things up with something relatable so we can connect with that person. Unfortunately that tends to be said misinformation or jokes that many either find offensive or are just repetitive. I.e. how often is it that you don't hear a flux capacitor or cocaine joke?

Getting back on topic to our discussion here...

Your post gave me pause. No exaggerating here, I actually had to contemplate your words for a couple of days. Not because I was trying to wordsmith a satisfactory reply or anything like that, no. I've been pondering what you've said, and what perhaps your experience has been.

I've gone back and listened to Sex, Lies, and Superspeedways vol.1 It's an audiobook recording of chosen excerpts from Smoky Yunick's autobiography as read by John Z. De Lorean himself (yes, well over 6 hours of the man himself narrating). This morning I finished listening to Smokey's recolections of everything from being a machinist to training to become a pilot. Smokey had his doubts and nearly gave up many times at various points in his life. But whenever someone told him he couldn't do something and to give up, he doubled his efforts to study & practice and proved them wrong. It sounds like that's what we have here with you.

I sincerely want to offer my apologies to you if what I said hurt your feelings. I am so sorry it had to be this way.

But if it did indeed spark something in you, for whatever reason and in whatever form it took that made you into a competent mechanic, then I'm glad it happened. I'm proud of you.

As Louie pointed out, our cars tend to attract people who aren't quite mechanically inclined, and simply think that everything is turnkey requiring no work. Something that has happened in the past and our cars end up bearing the blame for being the problem and not the irresponsible owner where the true blame lies. So we try and deter those folks away. When someone says they need help, so long as they're willing to not only take assistance but lend a hand and learn, then I do believe that they should never be denied. After all, even I had to learn somewhere, and I was fortunate that I had mentors who took me on. I'm glad you found the same.

As I said previously, your post really made me think about things here. Both in terms of the community as a whole, as well as my involvement within it and more importantly my perceptions of it.

I never wanted the DeLorean to be an exclusive car. I always felt that anyone who wants one should be able to buy one. This is why when D-1 decided to start selling refurbished cars fro $60,000 back in the 90's, I was opposed. That was as much about greed as it was a power struggle. I always felt that the only requirements a DeLorean owner should have are responsibility and courtesy. I only ever willingly took on confrontation when I saw inaccuracies.

You really don't like my posts here in regards to the toxicity of the community? You really don't feel as though I've not offered solutions or suggestions? It's funny because I thought I had. At least in the sense of what I (and apparently others too) didn't like so that we could start a conversation from there. I thought this input from myself and others would at least get us talking in order to exchange ideas rather than my posting some sort of code of conduct which I wanted to dictate to everyone. I'd rather others think for themselves. I also have considered the possibility of perhaps you having a negative interaction with me in the past potentially has skewed my words. Like how if a friend tells you your shirt is ugly and since they're a trusted source, you take the words as advice. But if someone whom you don't like says the exact same thing, you look at the words in a different light and dismiss them as being hindering instead of useful. The source of communications is important in all things. But still I think about your words.

You know, in the past I would certainly have written a diatribe in response to them. Something to either argue a position, or clarify things, etc. in a rebuttal. But I don't want to. Instead I really need to consider my place within the order of things here. Like life around me as I get older, I must consider if as the things around me change, are they truly for the worse? Or am I simply otherwise uncomfortable with the change?

After thinking things over, I have to say that the problem is me.

I'm not mad, I'm not rage quitting, and I don't have any animosity. I'm just leaving because I now believe that it is the best for the community, and more importantly myself. Before I could ever consider participating, I'd need to really change in order to adapt. Never say never of course, but I don't know if that would happen, or if it did how long it would take. But clearly the problem here is me. I accept that.

I would however give you one final piece of advice. For you, and for everyone else here:

Don't be like me.

If there were things about me you liked, then please emulate them. What you didn't like, please don't ever do. And if you never saw anything redeeming about me, then well, I guess you've nothing to worry about.

I truly do wish you, and everyone else here the best. I hope that you all find happiness and joy with your cars, and with one another. You deserve to be happy.

Goodbye.

[SonnyV]

Be definition, it isn't sanctimonious when it is the truth. Your reply here has just further cemented this, and invalidated your statements.

Again, there is a long list of people whom Houston would logically take exception with for comments made publicly which would potentially have repercussions, and someone such as yourself wouldn't even come close to having such a worry for merely liking a meme against them.

So the necessity for anonymity on your behalf clearly does not exist. The only logical reason for it, again, is because you wish to troll others and cause problems, without any consequences for your actions.

Likewise the threat of problems towards your personal safety, and that potentially others in your family is also a lie. If it were indeed real, then why in the world would you continue to antagonize others? If you feel your mere presence here is a problem, then again, why even be apart of such an online community?

Replying with more excuses is futile. You strike me as the kind of person who can never be wrong, and will simply come up with continual excuses. The fact that you're scared of DMCH "banning" you tells me that this clearly isn't your primary account. That you indeed have another where you maintain seemingly friendly communications in order to keep up a friendly appearance. A definite act of cowardice.

Who are you? I don't care enough to find out. But knowing that you are out there doesn't enamor me to maintain public contact with a community when people like you are around. Probably say hello to me, and then trash talk me first chance you get if we met. Again, you're exactly the kind of toxic person we've been talking about.

It most certainly is sanctimonious. You project others as having the need to be right when you cannot accept that you are wrong. You are a pompous blowhard who is incapable of accepting his own failings.

Everything I have said has been true. There are records over on DMCToday where Bill Robertson was recorded threatening owners for disliking their opinions. That is a fact that others here can attest to.

That screeshot of Espey stating that they refuse to sell to an owner for posting "shitty memes" is also a fact.

Since you cannot refute my true statements with facts, you resort to petty posturing and an alleged preemptive defense.

Both Rob Grady and Josh Bengston are also blacklisted; care to counter that?

One final point: anonymity doesn't equate to being wrong or being disregarded. Nixon learned that with Watergate.

[Mark D]

Meanwhile in Stevens Point, WI:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhelrTuw9OI&t=11s

[EngineerGuY]

Mods this thread/topic can now be closed or deleted. Thanks!