Just what?s going on with DMCH?

[81dmc]

Received this email today.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52437831284_605c6e6c12_k.jpg

[JRNY13]

Shame. Had nothing but positive experiences with MW.

[DaraSue]

Well okay then. Good to know that when my k-jet finally shits the bed I can take it to MW to get a Honda engine put in it. :rollin:

[Mark D]

Well, that's unfortunate.

I have nothing but the utmost respect for Mike and the entire crew at DMCMW. They've been true stewards of the DMC brand, and represent the best of what it means to be a part of the DMC community. They have continued the legacy that Dave and Julee started, and have maintained the "treat others as you would like to be treated" way of doing business that they became well known for. I plan to continue to support them moving forward.

While it makes me sad to hear that DMCMW will no longer have the parts/inventory support of DMCH, in my mind the two entities were always were separate. Especially in how they conducted themselves (both publicly and privately) and the way in which they treated people in the DeLorean community.

I find the reasoning for the separation in the announcement from DMCH to be unbelievably ironic considering the current direction they are taking with the DeLorean "brand identity" and "company philosophy." The Alpha platform has limited appeal with no connection whatsoever to the "Classic" DMC. And the pebble beach launch of the Alpha 5 (and collective yawn / mocking on social media that followed) was nothing short of an embarrassment. The current entanglements in the Karma IP theft lawsuit further erodes the iconic status of the DeLorean name.

Given the direction that DMCH has been taking the DMC brand, there was already a discontinuity between that vision and the vision of actual DeLorean owners and enthusiasts (like DMCMW). So perhaps the split was inevitable.

Specifically, the viewpoint that engine swaps are somehow "incompatible" with DMC's philosophy represents a staggering lack of vision on DMCH's part. It reveals their limited foresight into what the next generation of collector car owners will actually want, and where the collector car market may ultimately be headed in the future.

[Timeless]

Wow. Purchased my car from Mike early this year and continue to purchase parts from them.

[paul_haga]

I find the reasoning for the separation in the announcement from DMCH to be unbelievably ironic considering the current direction they are taking with the DeLorean "brand identity" and "company philosophy." The Alpha platform has limited appeal with no connection whatsoever to the "Classic" DMC. And the pebble beach launch of the Alpha 5 (and collective yawn / mocking on social media that followed) was nothing short of an embarrassment. The current entanglements in the Karma IP theft lawsuit further erodes the iconic status of the DeLorean name.



I agree 100%, Mark. This particular quote from the DMC e-mail that was sent today really caused me to raise my eyebrow...

?While this would most certainly not have been my choice, in order to protect the DeLorean automobile brand in the manner that I feel is most important to keeping original cars on the road for years to come, Mike and Suzy made their decision and I have made mine?, Stephen remarked.

So, on one hand, he's ok with DMR taking this complete revisionist history angle with all of these so-called Alpha concepts, truly blurring DMC's past and confusing people as to what is real and what is a marketing campaign...but on the other hand, when we know that NOS PRV's are supposedly down below 100 in stock, he's unwilling to think about the fact that there will come a day that engine swaps are a necessarily conversation to have? Seems a weird hill to die on.

I have nothing but the utmost respect for Mike and Suzy (and Dave and Julee before). DMCMW has been a shining beacon of integrity, knowledge and customer service to those of us in the rust belt! I wish them all the best in this new endeavor.

[DaraSue]

It doesn't exactly inspire confidence seeing DMCH cut loose their two most universally beloved franchises... :headscratch::paranoid:

Does DMCH still have that verbiage about "our goal is to see every DeLorean driven and enjoyed" on their website? Because this seems... counterproductive.

(Plus both Chicago and Seattle are areas with active clubs and a lot of cars. That's a lot of owners who may now have incentive to buy parts from other vendors than DMCH. "Interesting" business strategy.)

[mhanch]

I always go through Toby and DPNW, or through Delorean Go. Not that I dislike Texas, but once you have a relationship with a business you tend to stick with it.

[DeCobra]

I've never understood why DMCH would franchise with incredibly high franchise fees. With roughly 4-6k cars on the road, a franchise model isn't going to work as well as it does with McDonalds. If I were them, I'd be doing everything possible to get any and all shops to carry my parts and establish DMCH as the go-to reputable supplier for anything and all things DeLorean. Instead they've forgotten the DMC roots where for decades owners had to find parts and repair their cars on their own. Today owners can readily return to that model, but with the help of 3rd party vendors, and new technology which makes it easier to obtain parts. So what does DMCH provide that others can't? Their only advantage is lower costs through volume and they're poisoning that advantage.

[DaraSue]

So what does DMCH provide that others can't?

A sticker on the part with a DMC logo that they'll C&D anybody else for using lol

(I should probably STFU before I get myself blacklisted too but I'm just WTF-ing 5ever that Team Houston thinks the best way to keep cars on the road is with a dwindling supply of 30-year-old parts for an engine setup that 90% of mechanics don't know how to competently service. Like have they noticed how many newer owners are more interested in driving their cars on 100 mile commutes or 1000 mile road trips or just to the Cars & Coffee every week than in winning concours competitions? If my engine really did blow up and my options were wait two years and pay an unobtanium surcharge to get a new PRV or get an engine that somebody within a 700 mile radius might actually know how to work on, three guesses what I'm going with, and I doubt I'm alone in this sentiment... :rolleyes1:)

[DMCVegas]

I don't consider myself apart of the DeLorean community much at all any more. I have a handful of people whom I either speak directly with, or simply observe posts about on Facebook. The reason being that the goals of myself and the community as a whole seem to really have parted ways quite some time ago. But I too also received the same email myself and was a bit perplexed by it. I've also been a bit perplexed by some of the community's reactions from DMC of Houston's (here on out referred to as either DMCH) decision with the resurrection of the DeLorean brand. I don't lurk much anywhere, and this is the first time I've been back since leaving. I'm actually only apart of two DeLorean groups on Facebook having purged memberships to others along with choosing to sever other connections with people and organizations as well. I don't have plans to really stick around here as I still don't feel 100% with the community. But after receiving this email it did instigate a reaction from me I've chosen to put into words here.

I did feel strongly enough about this email blast from DMCH, and the previous comments here too, to say something about them.

For disclosure purposes, yes, I've purchased from DMCH, only met Wynne once for perhaps less than 30 seconds, never bought anything from DMCMW nor met any of the people involved in past nor present ownership.

First of all, John Zachary De Lorean is dead. He has no say so in anything DeLorean related. This covers everything from building brand new vehicles with his namesake emblazoned on them to those of you who refuse to even switch out the damn radio because you're trying to "preserve" your cars as JZD intended them to be. So trying to argue what is or isn't in line with his vision is utterly pointless.

From the moment the original DMC folded, it was merely a matter of time that the marque was going to be relaunched. No, DMC as a company did not last nearly as long as Ford, Daimler, Benz, Porsche, or Honda. But the man himself, De Lorean, has transcended past being a simple brand. De Lorean, much like the namesake of Pontiac he was the custodian of at one point, has become it's own ideal. A controversial figure as a hero to some, a villain to others, a figure that continues to be debated and in his rebellion became the icon of power and defiance that captured the imagination of men so powerfully at the time that he was chosen to represent the ideals of an automotive brand. No one will remember Lutz, Iacocca, Barra, Marchionne, Zetsche, nor many other CEOs or captains of industry. But they will and DO remember De Lorean! Whether it's the Alpha V, or a replica DeLorean automobile, it won't be the vision of the person nor company making that car that people are buying into. They're buying into the De Lorean mythos. As impressive as that may be for some, or as repulsive to anyone who doesn't like the new designs of the car or perhaps even the entity responsible which owns the marque and trademarks at that time, it is out of our hands. Love it or hate it, that is something we have to accept.

Finally, engine swaps.

Speaking quite frankly here, let's cut the bullshit about "protecting" the automobiles, marques, etc. Engine swaps are a HUGE fucking liability. Some states, read those with clean air quality tests that do not require emissions testing, allow for engine swaps no problem. Others, the rules and regulations are not as clear. And by that I mean that some states that do allow engine swaps have purposefully obfuscated their own laws so as to make the process of a legal engine swap impossible. Example: In Nevada the newer engine must include all of the certified emissions control systems that it utilized in the previous vehicle. Meaning that I could tap the carbon control canister into a V8 LS engine, and it could do it's job flawlessly. But, because GM never officially approved that engine for use with that canister, even though it works, I cannot use it. But what if I use the electronically controlled carbon canister that came with the car? Even if I have a custom ECU that can trigger the solenoids under certain temperature/RPM requirements, because it isn't the original PCM that came with the engine, and the engine still passes testing on it's own, it's illegal. It is rigged to be a no-win situation for the public.

So why am I bringing this up? Because if DMCH through it's affiliates is doing business in California, let alone in other states that have automatically enacted CARB's regulations via trigger laws, DMCH would have opened themselves up for a gargantuan amount of liabilities in the form of possible jail time and certainly insane financial penalties. Let's say an engine swap occurs. Then that car is either brought back to, or sold to someone in a state where the engine swap which occurred is prohibited. That most certainly could open DMCH up for an insane amount of liability since it was their affiliate acting on their behalf that performed the swap. Just look at the guys in Utah who faced a $180,000,000 fine for defeating diesel emissions equipment. (https://www.sltrib.com/news/environment/2021/12/29/appeals-court-affirms/)

If that were the reason given in plain English, then I could absolutely understand the situation. But trying to say engine swaps are not "compatible" with DMCH's "philosophy"? I have to admit that is painfully hypocritical on so many levels. The least of which are continued modifications to the PRV engine both internally and externally from the exhaust system to that Stage III prototype with the supercharger that stray away from originality. But more importantly the whole low-volume replica car act. The plan to originally consume the remainder of DMCH's warehouse of parts by building replica cars. Remember that? I do, and I also remember that it was clearly stated in an interview that the cars were, according to EPA rules, required to use modern drivetrains with OBD-II computers and ports for emissions testing. Even more so was the statement that preliminary engine they chose was a 3.7L V6 (which I'd bet money that it was the Ford Duratec/Cyclone from the Mustang). THAT was a fully-fledged engine swap into the DMC-12 platform. So why in the hell was that considered to be perfectly acceptable and keeping with DMCH's philosophy? If we're looking at things from the liability aspect of it all, then I absolutely have to agree with DMCH in severing their relationship with DMCMW. That is a smart business decision to create indemnity. But if we're going to go with this pious excuse of protecting the cars/vision/philosophy/whatever, then we have a problem because that argument just falls flat on it's face and makes DMCH look bad.

Again, as I have said, my goals and values have certainly strayed away from that of the community. The minutiae of which are not important. But I've always said that keeping cars on the road is paramount. You do that, and everything else such as the public image takes care of itself. I do not like carburetors compared to fuel injection, but I have always advocated that if a carb swap is what can keep a DeLorean automobile on the road, then please do it. I just did not like the idea that such conversions would not be free to anyone in the community who did not wish to pay *tribute* to one particular individual. Which is the same reason many years ago that I fought an updating of the Workshop Manual without giving proper credit to people who contributed such information on the DML that was to be included with said tome. Having said all of that, engine swaps are the future of the DeLorean marque.

Again, engine swaps are the future of the DeLorean marque.

As I stated with my previous example, the swapping of an internal combustion engine is next to impossible across all 50 states. But if we venture into electric motors which have no emissions since they're not ICE, then there is absolutely no restriction. And this will be the way of the future. No one is making new K-Jetronic distributors or Warm-Up Regulators. We have to rely upon people to rebuild these parts which were technically never meant to be serviceable. So what happens when either the skills die with the people performing the services now, or we simply run out of rebuildable cores? Sure we have injectors still, some of questionable quality, but for how long? Be it modifications to switch from K-Jet to EFI. Perhaps we even go the LS4 or Honda routes to swap out entirely new drivetrains. Because it might just be cheaper than rebuilding a PRV? But what happens as petroleum fuels over the next couple of decades become increasingly more expensive to the point where they're no longer a utility in our lives but rather a hobby for old cars? All while the prices of electric motors and batteries plummet as new technologies arrive? Or worse yet we start to see HOAs banning all fossil fuels from neighborhoods including ICE automobiles? Or more realistically we just can't find parts anymore to keep our engines going.

We're going to go electric. I promise you that 60 years from now there's going to be some crazy sumbitch flying down the highway in a century-old DeLorean, and he or she is probably on their way to work because they decided to daily drive a car that was built over 100 years ago. I'm willing to bet that car won't have an ancient PRV with a long ago rusted out fuel distributor from water-absorbing ethanol. It'll be an electric motor humming along. Why? Because an engine swap was needed to keep that car on the road.

[ssdelorean]

<<snip>>

We're going to go electric. I promise you that 60 years from now there's going to be some crazy sumbitch flying down the highway in a century-old DeLorean, and he or she is probably on their way to work because they decided to daily drive a car that was built over 100 years ago. I'm willing to bet that car won't have an ancient PRV with a long ago rusted out fuel distributor from water-absorbing ethanol. It'll be an electric motor humming along. Why? Because an engine swap was needed to keep that car on the road.

With the accelerated rate over the past couple years where people in this world are ever more narcissistic, violent and take no responsibility for their actions, do you really think we have 60yrs left?

Integrity and honesty seem to be as rare as rocking horse feces these days. The DMCMW folks (Swingles and McElhattans) have both.

[81dmc]

I disagree that electric is the future, but that's a whole other topic.

I've met Mr. Wynne and don't wish anything bad for him or his new endeavors, but I believe the direction DMCH is headed isn't good for the community. I believe there was a shakeup at DMCH with the uprising of DPI as parts/service and DeloGo for parts. Those two have really changed the DeLorean ownership experience from maintaining a flawed concourse car with NOS parts, to actually enjoying a more reliable DeLorean with vastly improved parts.


So where does this leave owners needing quality parts and service?

I will say, DMCH currently has a trump card and that's the NOS parts and factory drawings. However, as parts are reproduced by competitors, DMCH will lose out on the market. They had a huge chance to prevent this by building new quality parts, but that never happened, at least at the level the market needed/wanted. If you all ever noticed, they added the improved part description with a disclaimer basically saying competitors parts are deficient compared to their own, which of course is the opposite of the truth.

Anyways, if DMCH continues to blacklist entities/individuals and creates a void, there will probably be a time where the price of parts will rise substantially. Eventually that will be overcome as more parts are reproduced and the void filled, but we need to be prepared as owners.



TLDR, I personally think DMCH had a time to shine, missed out, and is simply unsettled by the recently successful competition (DPI/DeloGo).

[dmcerik]

It looks like the DMC MidWest website redirects to classicdmc now, and my guess is Mikes email address probably doesn't go to him anymore? I hope Mike chimes in at some point and let's us all know how we can continue to support him and his business.

[iflights]

It looks like the DMC MidWest website redirects to classicdmc now, and my guess is Mikes email address probably doesn't go to him anymore? I hope Mike chimes in at some point and let's us all know how we can continue to support him and his business.

[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]

[Helirich]

But what happens as petroleum fuels over the next couple of decades become increasingly more expensive to the point where they're no longer a utility in our lives but rather a hobby for old cars?

Right now electric cars are not really viable without government incentives, but I do believe they will be in the future. But, you realize that petroleum based fuel will become less expensive, not more expensive as electric vehicles become mainstream

[Timeless]

Right now electric cars are not really viable without government incentives, but I do believe they will be in the future. But, you realize that petroleum based fuel will become less expensive, not more expensive as electric vehicles become mainstream
I purchased a Taycan in 2021 to join my collection. Viability is not a question for me since there is/was no government incentive for me to purchase - I just LOVE the car!

[Helirich]

I purchased a Taycan in 2021 to join my collection. Viability is not a question for me since there is/was no government incentive for me to purchase - I just LOVE the car!

Do you pay road tax? If not, you are getting a direct government incentive.

Also, your price may have been lower because of government breaks to the manufacture.

[Bitsyncmaster]

But, you realize that petroleum based fuel will become less expensive, not more expensive as electric vehicles become mainstream

They will increase the taxes if that happens.

Anyway, I think DMCH gets a lot of their income from servicing DeLoreans with engine related problems. If there has been an engine swap, they would not (could not) service that car.

[Hill Valley PD]

I bought and sold 2282 through Mike and back to Mike at DMCMW. The best of the best. I have been out of the loop for about a year after selling my car until I got the email. It just didn?t sit right and came across as petty like a kid with a bunch of toys who got mad and went home with them. I?m sorry, but I have seen where prices have gone on nice DeLoreans, and while I love the cars, once you get into the 70k plus range, there are so many better options objectively. Engine swap was something this car needed from day one and a contributing factor amongst numerous to its failure. I applaud MW for branching out and doing what Houston has been peddling for over a decade - ?new? Delorean with modern powertrain. Instead, DMCH while claiming to protect the legacy of DMC, sells the soul and name to a Korean EV that looks like every other egg EV on the road. The whole thing came across as a college marketing project powerpoint that ended up being real. I hope it fails spectacularly and by the looks of the panning on social media, it will. If I ever get back in the game, it will be through whatever MW is offering at the time.

[DMCVegas]

With the accelerated rate over the past couple years where people in this world are ever more narcissistic, violent and take no responsibility for their actions, do you really think we have 60yrs left?

Absolutely. Not because I'm some perpetually positive person who hopes for the best, or because of my love for people. Nope, I believe we'll be around for quite some time because I'm an absolute cynic. Confused? Indulge me for a moment.

Do you know what one of the largest warning signs that a person is inevitably going to commit suicide is? It's sudden happiness! Yes, you read that correctly. Someone who is perpetually clinically depressed, sees no way out of a bad situation they're in, has no hope, whatever. That person is sad. But then all of the sudden they're full of joy out of nowhere. Why is that? Because they've found a solution to all of their problems in death. Ending it all means that they're no longer around to be subjected to their pains, nor liable for their debts, problems, etcetera. And the thing about this is that a good chunk of society is constantly daydreaming about this too, and have been for as long as mankind has been around. From yea olde bell ringer in robes in the street proclaiming that the end is neigh from the dark ages, to past fads of zombie apocalypses in pop culture. Covid plagues, giant meteors crashing into the planet, nuclear bombs going off, assholes being, well, assholes on the internet like me... It's all the same. Just a gigantic daydream that all our problems will soon be over because of some catastrophe that whisks us away from the harsh pain of reality.

But personally, no. I'm of the mind that we aren't going to get off that easily. We're going to be around for a long, long time in order deal with our problems. That is the level of cynicism I have.




I disagree that electric is the future, but that's a whole other topic.

And that is perfectly fine. But it just looks as though everyone here has completely missed the damn point I was raising about EV conversions. Specifically that engine swaps are not just inevitable, but should be accepted as well. To expand upon my last post briefly, with reference to carburetor conversions, I didn't simply want just a conversion that would be available to anyone who wanted to complete one, I wanted a complete how-to guide for the procedure. How to swap in the fuel delivery system, tune it, maintain it, etc. The reasoning being both for accessibility, but more importantly for the purpose of creating a universally accepted and standardized modification within the marque. How many times over the years did you use to hear complaints about those 80amp Ducey alternators? The plastic clutch lines? Fan Fail Relay modifications? Tank Ziila? Stainless brackets for Training Arm Sheilds? Stainless coolant bottles to replace plastic ones? The list goes on. These are all commonly accepted, if not per the opinion of the community as a whole, required modifications for our cars. Just as a Chevy swap is considered standard practice for some Jaguars and Volvos, so should LS and Honda swaps for DeLoreans for those who wish to do so.

And yes, despite the attacks against me in the past, no, I am hardly a purist. I enjoy modifications, but I just believe that the should be done correctly. But the only way to do that is to stop shunning them, moreso when they're inevitable. Otherwise enjoy your stainless steel paperweight that no longer runs because of a lack of parts. I mean if dudes in Cuba are still tooling around Havana in 70 year old Chevys, Studebakers, and Packards because they could swap engines and keep their cars going, we can too.




I hope it fails spectacularly and by the looks of the panning on social media, it will. If I ever get back in the game, it will be through whatever MW is offering at the time.

Meh, I don't care about the vehicle. Hell, if I had the means and it hit production I'd buy one. Mostly too because I despise Fisker. You want to talk about a shit company, Fisker, not DMCH is the real bunch of assholes that deserve ridicule. I remember when General Motors was getting ready to sell off the Kappa platform and the entire plant in Delaware. Penske and DMCH were both interested with DMCH looking to badge engineer the Pontiac Solstice/Saturn Sky. Neat little cars. But no, Fisker convinced everyone to sell the plant to them. The Kappa platform was discontinued, hundreds of workers at the Wilmington Assembly Plant were fired, and the state of Delaware lost millions of dollars from subsidies they gave to Fisker.

Fuck Karma and their half-assed Fisker crap. I hope they loose their lawsuit and go bankrupt. They're acting less like a manufacture and more like a band of pathetic patent trolls.




Right now electric cars are not really viable without government incentives, but I do believe they will be in the future. But, you realize that petroleum based fuel will become less expensive, not more expensive as electric vehicles become mainstream

Alright. Apparently this whole EV topic has taken a life of it's own. So if the mods wish to break this off into another thread, go right ahead. I've no intention of participating, so I'll threadkill it right now.


Technically petroleum fuels are already flooded with government subsidies in the form of hundreds of millions of dollars worth of tax breaks issued each year to petroleum companies who write-off everything from losses to expenses for exploration costs. Kill those tax cuts and watch how much less competitive fossil fuels become.
Cue the Dilbert cartoon. Oil is a fungible resource. If we don't consume it here in North America, other regions will. Most likely Asia and Africa. So the demand won't go away. There will be other countries who will step in and buy what we don't in order to keep the price high.
Beyond that, understand that commodities pricing is NOT based upon supply and demand.
In the future, I seriously doubt we will see the aggressive expansion of gas stations in the western world, with refueling stations more likely to recede in the decades to come. But more on that later.





Do you pay road tax? If not, you are getting a direct government incentive.

Also, your price may have been lower because of government breaks to the manufacture.

Interesting you mention this. Auto manufacturers of ICE vehicles such as Toyota have received tens of millions of dollars in tax credits for relocating to Texas, as well as other companies such as Hyundai, Nissan, and Toyota who have moved manufacturing into Mississippi under the guise of "job creation". Which these corporations still get the lions share of government subsidies over EVs.

Road taxes are an interesting thing. So let's talk about those. You see, when you purchase motor fuels at the pump, you're not just paying fuel costs and taxes. Oh no. Large chunks of the price per gallon go directly back to the petroleum manufacturer to cover costs such as fuel distribution and delivery, and believe it or not, marketing costs. And then we have a few cents per gallon that gets thrown to the gas station itself. So, if lets say every year when you renew your vehicle registration the state were to charge you equal sales tax and road tax fees for the miles you drove based upon an equivalency of gallons of motor fuel you'd have purchased if those miles had been driven on a comparative ICE, you'd still likely save a couple hundred dollars per year by cutting the oil company out of the deal, and the government would STILL get their share and lose no revenue in the process.




They will increase the taxes if that happens.

Nope. Now certainly once EVs take over I wouldn't put it past regulators to place excessive taxes upon regular motor fuels to curb use in the same way which taxes on tobacco skyrocketd in order to facilitate cessation. Possibly with exemptions for classic cars in the same way that some rural stations will exempt sales taxes for OHV-use only diesel. But that's likely many decades away.

But otherwise I absolutely can see gasoline prices shooting up as EV adoption takes place. As we consume less motor fuel and lower demand, the shipments will become fewer from overseas refineries. Which in turn means that since we're not buying in bulk, we're not going to get that same discount. And even before inflation took hold over the past couple of years, WTI Crude from fracking needs to stay high in order to maintain the profitability of oil extraction and refining. And with a raw pre tax equivalency of less than .60? per gallon when using electricity instead of petrol, how in the hell can oil companies compete with that?

The main thing I predict will happen is the decline of the gas station. Most people don't realize that gas stations only make a few cents per gallon profit on the fuel they sell. The real money is inside with convenience store sales of food and beverages. To open a station, assuming you don't have a licensing agreement with a petroleum provider that you have to pay for, the costs are astronomical. You've got to pay for underground storage tanks. Then you've got to pay to get them installed. Then you've got licenses to pay for to sell those fuels. Then you've got ground water monitoring you need to pay for. Then after "X" amount of years you'll have to dig those tanks up and start all over. And even then you've got to hope that your fuel prices are set to keep you competitive or else people won't stop in.

Yet on the flip side Target and Walmart are just paying to have the local utility company pull in some additional power lines to run charging stations in their parking lots cost a fraction of a gas station, and have essentially created a fuel station for EVs. So imagine you're an entrepreneur who wants to open up a convenience store. Which looks more financially attractive? Selling Petroleum or Electricity? Again, decades away but likely to be the change we see in the future to further drive fossil fuels out of the market.

[Timeless]

Do you pay road tax? If not, you are getting a direct government incentive.

Also, your price may have been lower because of government breaks to the manufacture.
No road tax. Is there a US government incentive for a vehicle produced in Germany? I purchased a Tesla Model 3 in late 2019 and did receive some $ when they had the tax credit offering.

[Jonathan]

I'm having the sudden urge to write something long-winded... for old times sake.

Michael... you too? :)

[DMCMW Dave]

Absolutely. + a whole bunch of other words

Man, I truly miss your writing (not kidding). Do you have a blog somewhere else?

[Michael]

I'm having the sudden urge to write something long-winded... for old times sake.

Michael... you too? :)

I don't do that here anymore...I can't do it without twisting someone's panties up in a knot so they complain to the compassionate mods who will in turn lock the thread to satisfy the hurt widdle feelings of one delicate beta boy.
Most of the members now have a private room on FB by invite only. That's where we converse and nobody gets butthurt....and you should see what the longtime members (and vendors) REALLY think about this LOL!

[Citizen]

Absolutely. + a whole bunch of other words


I'm having the sudden urge to write something long-winded... for old times sake. Michael... you too? https://dmctalk.org/images/smilies/smile.png


Man, I truly miss your writing (not kidding). Do you have a blog somewhere else?


I don't do that here anymore...[Snip]

Most of the members now have a private room on FB by invite only. That's where we converse and nobody gets butthurt....and you should see what the longtime members (and vendors) REALLY think about this LOL!


+ 1 on Dave S' statement...wish Robert would come back (not kidding either) and post again. Add Michael to that list as well.

Mostly I agree (but not always), but both of your writing styles (in perfect English) keep me interested and reading whether I agree or not. It was disappointing that many of the people that make up the DeLorean knowledge base have migrated to FB, because there are many folks left here on Talk that need their expertise, but will not, for a plethora of reasons, join FB.

Thomas

...

[Timeless]

It was disappointing that many of the people that make up the DeLorean knowledge base have migrated to FB, because there are many folks left here on Talk that need their expertise, but will not, for a plethora of reasons, join FB.

Thomas

...
I'm one that refuses to join/support mainstream social media platforms.

[Bitsyncmaster]

It was disappointing that many of the people that make up the DeLorean knowledge base have migrated to FB, because there are many folks left here on Talk that need their expertise, but will not, for a plethora of reasons, join FB.

Thomas

...

What you post on face book gets lost after a week or two and is very limited to search and even comments get buried in sub comments unless you keep updating and reading the whole thing over and over again. I still only post technical stuff on TALK. It's a shame a lot of owners don't access it.

[Timeless]

What you post on face book gets lost after a week or two and is very limited to search and even comments get buried in sub comments unless you keep updating and reading the whole thing over and over again. I still only post technical stuff on TALK. It's a shame a lot of owners don't access it.
True story. I and many appreciate your valuable input for the community! :cheers1:

[Mark D]

What you post on face book gets lost after a week or two and is very limited to search and even comments get buried in sub comments unless you keep updating and reading the whole thing over and over again. I still only post technical stuff on TALK. It's a shame a lot of owners don't access it.

I can't stand how facebook sorts, hides, and prioritizes certain posts and comments over others and turns what would be a logical flow of information into an otherwise jumbled mess. The mass exodus from car forums is irritating because the format is such a better way to store information that can be searched and viewed from beginning to end.

To your point about having to keep updating a FB post and reading the whole comments section over and over again, it seems like that is by-design to keep people engaged and endlessly scrolling.

[DaraSue]

I really want to ask for an invite to that FB group (bc seeing people slag DMCH for the, shall we say, questionable decisions they've been making lately warms the cockles of my cold, black heart and all my irl friends already think I'm too negative) but my pwecious fee-fees would be hurt if I got rejected so I've probably automatically disqualified myself. :sad30:

[DMC5180]

I really want to ask for an invite to that FB group (bc seeing people slag DMCH for the, shall we say, questionable decisions they've been making lately warms the cockles of my cold, black heart and all my irl friends already think I'm too negative) but my pwecious fee-fees would be hurt if I got rejected so I've probably automatically disqualified myself. :sad30:

Which FB group are you speaking of? I Joined one awhile back started by Michael. However, I?m just not a FB person. I skim it once in a blue moon but never comment.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Victor]

I do not have a Facebook account either, but really appreciate all the technical help from Dave, and from all members as a matter of fact.
Some Delorean Facebook pages are open to public, but most are not.

I wish the Delorean Fanatics page was still open to public, just for entertainment purpose 😂

[DaraSue]

Which FB group are you speaking of? I Joined one awhile back started by Michael. However, I?m just not a FB person. I skim it once in a blue moon but never comment.


The sooper-seekrit one Michael was talking about in his post (which I assume is the new DMCToday clubhouse). It's been at least three years since I've gotten on FB and been in a better mood afterward but the power of DMCH drama compels me... :popcorn::TrainWreck:

[DaraSue]

And you know, James and Stephen are people too and I'm not trying to hurt their pwecious fee-fees either. It's not that I dislike them personally or want their business to fail. I think it would be great if they made a ton of money off of all these licensing deals and used the proceeds to get high quality replacement parts made for the cars we all own and (most of the time) love. I just don't see jettisoning the only two franchises I've never heard a bad word about and going all-in on a non-street-legal, unaffordable "new DeLorean" that bears only a passing resemblance to the original and then marketing it via NFT scheme on a buggy website as the path to success and want to bitch about it with other like-minded cynics. :cheers1:

[MrChocky]

I do not have a Facebook account either, but really appreciate all the technical help from Dave, and from all members as a matter of fact.
Some Delorean Facebook pages are open to public, but most are not.

I wish the Delorean Fanatics page was still open to public, just for entertainment purpose 😂

Plenty of entertainment to be had, if you want to join. The problem is the was a vast amount of spam, never
mind all the "regular" off topic posts, so it had to be made private.

[Ron]

:sad30:
:lol:


I'm one that refuses to join/support mainstream social media platforms.
:thankyou:

[Michael]

The sooper-seekrit one Michael was talking about in his post (which I assume is the new DMCToday clubhouse). It's been at least three years since I've gotten on FB and been in a better mood afterward but the power of DMCH drama compels me... :popcorn::TrainWreck:

It's a super secret private chat room where only the most respected vendors and top tier members hang out.

[DMCVegas]

I don't do that here anymore...I can't do it without twisting someone's panties up in a knot so they complain to the compassionate mods who will in turn lock the thread to satisfy the hurt widdle feelings of one delicate beta boy.

That is absolutely something I am against. The exceptions would be things like doxing, threats of violence, etc. But otherwise I don't like censorship simply because you disagree with someone. We're going to have opposing viewpoints as is normal, and sometimes we simply need to agree to disagree. And that's ok. Besides, if I know someone is wrong, rather than shut them up I'd rather let them embarrass themselves than silence them to prevent them from doing so. More importantly, what's the worst that can happen? We disagree and instead of complaining I actually consider your viewpoint and change my stance to come around to your way of thinking? Heaven forbid we ever place ourselves into uncomfortable conversations and have our worldviews changed and unite together.



Man, I truly miss your writing (not kidding). Do you have a blog somewhere else?


+ 1 on Dave S' statement...wish Robert would come back (not kidding either) and post again. Add Michael to that list as well.

Mostly I agree (but not always), but both of your writing styles (in perfect English) keep me interested and reading whether I agree or not. It was disappointing that many of the people that make up the DeLorean knowledge base have migrated to FB, because there are many folks left here on Talk that need their expertise, but will not, for a plethora of reasons, join FB.

Thomas

First off, thank you both for the kind words. I actually am humbled and very appreciative of them. Coming from you, Dave, especially so as I have considered you one of my mentors since I first started lurking on the DML back in 1996. Funny enough it has been over a quarter century and we've never met face to face.

To answer your question, no, I do not have a blog (though if you're clever enough you can track down my old posts on Jalopnik). My writing has slowed down a great deal. There's a couple of reasons for that. The first being that I changed career fields. Previously I worked in the IT industry which afforded myself a lot of free time to participate in online discussions. My current job doesn't allow for the same free time, let alone constant computer access due to it's physical requirements. I literally went from sitting on my ass 95% of the day to walking an average of nearly 6 miles each day around a property of nearly 80 acres. And that still isn't counting the numerous floors of the towers I regularly ascend and descend. So now I have no time to write at work, and when home I'm usually busy with family and whatnot (which isn't a bad thing, but a whole other story).

The second reason is that I dislike most online communications, and absolutely abhor social media. It is toxic and second only to the intellectual abyss of reality television. If Dante were writing the Divine Comedy today, I'm certain he would include additional levels of Hell to accommodate social media and reality television in his epic poem. Social media is not about connecting people together. It's about people trying to compete for attention in a never ending pageant of pestilential vapid vanity with advertisers trying to capitalize on the jealousy and insecurities of the masses. Celebrity is no longer about being loved but in most cases these days who can be offended first in order to be victim zero. And if you've nothing to be offended by, you can always become offended on behalf of someone else. But I digress... Like I say, social media is all take and no give. I can, and have posted things on Facebook...and no one says a damn thing. It's not that I'm insecure and demand attention, because if that were the case I promise you'd I would have been acting out a long time ago. But if no one is listening, then what's the point of talking? I can think of funny things or have my observations and talk to myself in the car while driving and have the same result with fewer time spend online and less disappointment.

I do plan on returning to college to complete my degree. And both my wife as we as my old English professor have encouraged me to write. I do sometimes journal and I have my sketchbooks for inventions, but I just don't go public with my thoughts anymore. I mean, it used to be that the realm of journalism was a vocation for the select few. Men and women who had the necessary talents and perseverance to forge ahead within their professions and could achieve having a unique voice. I idolize the New Journalism and Gonzo styles of writing from authors such as Tom Wolfe and Hunter S. Thompson. After years of having Shakespeare, Jules Verne, and sterile biographies shoved down my throat in school, they were more than a simple breath of fresh air. It was more akin to a baby taking it's first breath. But now in the modern age, everyone has a high definition camera in their pocket with autocorrecting features. Great photos are no longer crafted but merely captured by arbitrary accident. And everyone and his mother (literally mine included as well) is posting opinions online that the hacks have finally drowned out the talent. Even bands can't get a record deal any longer simply because they play well, write well, or even look well. They have to build their own followings on social media and do the marketing work in advance.

I do enjoy being a raconteur, and I've been told that people would love to hear my stories. But I don't know where that audience is, or if they even exist any longer. Once I'm done sorting out all these damn boxes containing years of stuff from 3 different households (sometime next year I reckon) I plan on creating a vlog for the restoration of my car. Not so much for entertainment purposes, but to create a multimedia portfolio of my car. Only took 20 years for the deceased PO's next of kin to finally talk to me, so some of the private text documentation is done. I suppose if that's a success I'll expand upon more writing, but we'll see. I still want to go back and finish my degree. But more importantly, what would people even want to hear me write about?

In the mean time, picture me as I once was, up on the hillsides of the valley, looking down on the city in my DeLorean contemplating life and where to go next...


https://youtu.be/9ErMdrrvKJQ
https://youtu.be/9ErMdrrvKJQ


I still only post technical stuff on TALK. It's a shame a lot of owners don't access it.

I appreciate the work you have done and what you have accomplished for the benefit of the community. I'm glad that TALK is a repository of knowledge thanks to these sort of efforts, as well as a place that can freely exchange ideas to create new solutions for us all.

I do not like Facebook being the preferred choice for such endeavors. I have quite honestly only ever found a handful of useful groups, one of which actually being for DeLorean engine swaps, where the group functions as intended. Sometimes we may not like mods when threads get locked when those of us participating still have something to say and feel like we've been silenced. But I prefer it to the isolated Facebook groups that are just echo chambers of negativity, incubators of intolerance, and crematoriums of basic manners and kind behavior. Obviously not all are this way, but most are.

If you find yourself as being the smartest person within your group of friends, then it's time to find some new friends. We should always strive to challenges ourselves to be better and to do better. We either get validation or correction and those help us along the way.

Which is why I posted in this thread in the first place. I've nothing against DMCH, save for their PR department at times that don't think things such as that email blast all the way through. But then again I'm a threadkiller. I try to lay out my argument first, anticipate my challenges, and either thwart them in advance or ponder upon them to see if my POV may in fact be wrong. Lots of work goes into writings such as this. They aren't just on-the-fly streams of consciousness. So when I see errors in something I'm passionate about, which in this case I felt was someone trying to invalidate my choices with my car, let alone try and dominate the marque once again, then I'm going to respond.

And that is one of the core reasons I've drifted away from the DeLorean community. So many people are vying for control and trying to dominate it all. Everyone seems to always want to dominate the community and claim ownership of it. No, this isn't something unique to the DeLorean marque alone. This seems to happen with EVERY car club, group, whatever out there. But it keeps happening here too. We've got the big players like Ed Bernstein back in his day with the blacklisting, instilling of divisiveness, price fixing, and even harassment. I'm sure he'd have loved Facebook. But he's not the only one whose done this, and others continue to do it now. Even I was guilty of it. Thought I could help shape the club and quickly discovered what a fool's errand that was. I know that it still seems that way when I complain about people who keep their cars original, but that's because the people I complain about do it for the wrong reasons. If keeping an old radio because you love driving a time capsule is your thing and that makes you happy, do your thing. But if you're really wanting a modern stereo system but are fearful to do it because you're concerned it's going to somehow "violate" the car and make it less of a DeLorean, OR you're fearful that others will criticize you, I want you to lose that anxiety is all.

Otherwise I also get bored at car shows. It just seems like DeLorean owners want to talk about anything BUT their damn cars. Your last vacations? Your house? Your stock portfolio? Politics? I don't give a shit. If you've ever met me in person, you know I ask the same question: Why did you buy your car? What made you want to own a DeLorean? I'm fascinated by the passions of people, and the reasons behind what they do. But when I'm at a DeLorean event, I want to stay focused on DeLoreans. If I wanted to hear about vacations I'd be at a goddamed timeshare sales pitch listening to chucklefucks puke sales scripts at me. As such if I do arrive somewhere I'm hidden in the corner. Admittedly the onus of that is indeed upon myself. I can't blame others for not having the exact same interests as I do. But damn, it feels like going to a whorehouse where the only workers in the bedrooms are AmWay salesmen. Not what I expected and I feel tricked. And if someone does talk to me, sometimes it feels more like to pick my brain to get something from me, and as soon as I have nothing to offer they leave.

I don't care if people don't like DMCH for whatever reason. That's fine. But reading about private Facebook groups to where people have a desire to commiserate and shit talk about them or others? This community still doesn't gel with me. I'm not cool with that. There's too much negativity and not enough encouragement. Which again, that's on me than you all.

When men get to my age, or really years before, we tend not to have friends any more. Which is as accurate of a description of myself as it is normal for most men. As my wife said to me, I just need to find my people. Whoever those people are, whatever that shared interest is, I've no idea. I'm still looking. But on it's face the DeLorean community doesn't really look like it's for me any longer. Again, I'll check in later since this is, well, the only community I've known for now most of my life. Rest assured I'm not angry. People change, and perhaps the problem is that I have changed too much to relate to most people on here now. We'll see. But this song, and well, damn near the entire album related to me with my hobby here.

https://youtu.be/e5nOxc-p-eM

Best of luck to everyone. Especially in being kind and supportive of one another. Music helps me allot to relax, meditate, and contemplate. So here, have another that had coincidentally queued up on my playlist to close out this post.

https://youtu.be/9u9ymiSmtXY

[DaraSue]

As one of the people who just wants to talk shit in private comms, is it productive? On a grand scale, no. On a personal level? Sometimes you just have to vent about stuff that pisses you off before your head explodes, and after over a decade of new cars and new parts that have been promised but never delivered, I think a lot of us are just at that point with DMCH, especially with some of the stuff they've been doing lately that's come off as overtly hostile toward the community. When there's nothing you can constructively do to change a situation but it still sucks, sometimes you just want to screech to somebody who gets it.

Serenity now...

(insanity later lol)

[SonnyV]

As one of the people who just wants to talk shit in private comms, is it productive? On a grand scale, no. On a personal level? Sometimes you just have to vent about stuff that pisses you off before your head explodes, and after over a decade of new cars and new parts that have been promised but never delivered, I think a lot of us are just at that point with DMCH, especially with some of the stuff they've been doing lately that's come off as overtly hostile toward the community. When there's nothing you can constructively do to change a situation but it still sucks, sometimes you just want to screech to somebody who gets it.

Serenity now...

(insanity later lol)

Some things DMCH has done should not be forgotten.

[jamesrguk]

What you post on face book gets lost after a week or two and is very limited to search and even comments get buried in sub comments unless you keep updating and reading the whole thing over and over again. I still only post technical stuff on TALK. It's a shame a lot of owners don't access it.

This is so true, the number of times I've seen a really interesting post about a new product or DeLorean related trinket and I can never find it again especially as there are so many DeLorean FB groups.

I must confess that many of the new parts I design I launch/preview through FB, I really ought to post on here too but don't like to feel I'm just using the forum to sell stuff. Also most of my products are sold via DeLoreanGo so it could seem like I'm just a plant for them.


James

[DMCVegas]

As one of the people who just wants to talk shit in private comms, is it productive? On a grand scale, no. On a personal level? Sometimes you just have to vent about stuff that pisses you off before your head explodes, and after over a decade of new cars and new parts that have been promised but never delivered, I think a lot of us are just at that point with DMCH, especially with some of the stuff they've been doing lately that's come off as overtly hostile toward the community. When there's nothing you can constructively do to change a situation but it still sucks, sometimes you just want to screech to somebody who gets it.

Serenity now...

(insanity later lol)

It's true that commiseration can not just help in dealing with difficulty, but can be a team-building exercise to help build bonding between coworkers and friends. Likewise venting can be quite cathartic. In whichever form it takes such as the venting discussed or even dark humor. All are wonderful coping mechanisms.

However...

These are the byproducts of negative situations, and absolutely should remain as such. Let me put it this way: If you have a group of people who are either dealing with a shared group task, or are coincidentally dealing with a matching personal task on an individual basis and are facing the same challenge(s), you'll get that venting. And that is fine, because the end goal is to accomplish that instigating task. The blowing off of steam is completely secondary and the responsibility of completing your task regulates things to keep the individual(s) focused on the goal at hand. Then once the goal is achieved you have this sense of accomplishment that provides positivity that cancels out the negativity (if not at least most of it). Thus is keeps things positive, or at least not as negative.

On the flip side here, seeking out a group whose sole task is there to complain? Yeah, fuck that. When the goal of the group isn't simply to find closure in something in order to move on but to instead feed off of negativity, that that's just going to be an incubator of suffering that never helps anyone to heal because it feeds off of anger and pain and will constantly need to be replenished. Not to mention that like a junkie chasing a lost high thanks to simultaneously fighting a tolerance they've built up to the very narcotic they depend upon for their release, the group will simply keep on upping the negativity to satisfy that need. Everyone will simply find more and more things to complain about, becoming ever worse and/or outrageous in each resentment they post, breeding more and more discontent and hatred along the way.

Kind of like this:
https://youtu.be/ue7wM0QC5LE
(https://youtu.be/ue7wM0QC5LE)

Alas it will be nothing more than a party of grievances where the goal is discord rather than actual solutions. Because after all if whatever ails you is eliminated, and it was grievances that you substituted for the bonds of relationships instead of positive, truly beneficial shared interests, then where would you be? So it is negativity that you must foster to strengthen those bonds. How does anyone think that is going to benefit them? If you wallow in negativity and anger, do you not think that's going to warp you to some degree? That such negativity will carry over offline into the real world and affect your personal and professional relationships?

If that's your thing and makes you all happy, then do your thing. Who am I to stop you? Just be aware of those dangers lest "insanity later" becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

69121



Some things DMCH has done should not be forgotten.

Indeed those who cannot learn from history and doomed to repeat it. Just don't forget that's an all-encompassing fact that applies universally.

[DaraSue]

When the goal of the group isn't simply to find closure in something in order to move on but to instead feed off of negativity, that that's just going to be an incubator of suffering that never helps anyone to heal because it feeds off of anger and pain and will constantly need to be replenished. Not to mention that like a junkie chasing a lost high thanks to simultaneously fighting a tolerance they've built up to the very narcotic they depend upon for their release, the group will simply keep on upping the negativity to satisfy that need. Everyone will simply find more and more things to complain about, becoming ever worse and/or outrageous in each resentment they post, breeding more and more discontent and hatred along the way.


That's one possible outcome, but it's not necessarily the foregone conclusion you're assuming it is. I've seen an anonymous fandom community that was started to complain about snowflakes and SJWs evolve into one of the central places for fandom discussion and creative writing and personal support. There are still 200-comment threads of people arguing over salad dressing or whatever but along with the wank there's a lot of worthwhile stuff there. And all because 10 years ago some people wanted to bitch about other people bringing crying babies to fanvid shows at conventions. Who's to say the people bitching about DMCH now won't form a consortium that produces some new binnacles and idle speed motors that don't fail right out of the box? If people care enough to complain, sometimes they care enough to actually do something. It's rare, but it does happen.

[DMCVegas]

That's one possible outcome, but it's not necessarily the foregone conclusion you're assuming it is. I've seen an anonymous fandom community that was started to complain about snowflakes and SJWs evolve into one of the central places for fandom discussion and creative writing and personal support. There are still 200-comment threads of people arguing over salad dressing or whatever but along with the wank there's a lot of worthwhile stuff there. And all because 10 years ago some people wanted to bitch about other people bringing crying babies to fanvid shows at conventions. Who's to say the people bitching about DMCH now won't form a consortium that produces some new binnacles and idle speed motors that don't fail right out of the box? If people care enough to complain, sometimes they care enough to actually do something. It's rare, but it does happen.

Welp, moving the goalposts in a debate isn't going to strengthen that particular side.

As I said, it's all in your goals. If your goal is to simply have a place to complain and feed off of other complaints, as you indicated initially, then yes I would say you will be negatively affected. One needs only look around both online and in real life to see that very outcome from social and mass media. Once of the most memorable scenes, if not lessons on dealing with media I've ever seen:

https://youtu.be/9G6xu-J_Dmc

Hate watching media, let alone hate participation online via social media will indeed change you. Lest you are some tribesman living in the bush, you know you've experienced this first hand in the way people have changed in the past 15 years. Which, again is a change in yourself you risk and essentially cannot detect if you choose to only stay isolated within an echo chamber.

But let's get back to that whole moving goalposts thing there. Your new post has changed the reasoning for wanting participation. Whereas you previously said you wanted likeminded people to become angry within a *therapeutically* perpetual Two Minutes Hate session, now you state is it to try and initiate some sort of change with DMCH. Ok then, indulge me here:


Have any of you directly enquired to DMCH through an official channel as to what the status of binnacles, or whatever other things you feel they have failed to deliver, why they have not brought those products to market?
If any of you have asked, were you actually polite and professional?
If these products you want actually became available, would you actually purchase them? Or just refuse to as some sort of continuing protest?
Have you considered working with them on these products? Such as a deposit with a timetable to deliver said products with a refund if they fail to provide them?
Do you, or especially anyone else in the group you mentioned as the example we're speaking of, actually want DMCH to come through? I mean, with the entire purpose as previously mentioned being having something to complain about, that would eliminate the purpose of your bonding and potentially erase at least part of the identifies of some people. Is that something you're really willing to risk?


Otherwise citing your singular example of a group of grievances which became a central hub of communication, what's the point? Is that the counter to my argument? Or do you feel that we need yet ANOTHER DeLorean-centric communications platform? Is this once again someone trying to lay claim to the DeLorean marque? Because believe me it will fail.

[DaraSue]

Welp, moving the goalposts in a debate isn't going to strengthen that particular side.

As I said, it's all in your goals. If your goal is to simply have a place to complain and feed off of other complaints, as you indicated initially, then yes I would say you will be negatively affected. One needs only look around both online and in real life to see that very outcome from social and mass media. Once of the most memorable scenes, if not lessons on dealing with media I've ever seen:

https://youtu.be/9G6xu-J_Dmc

Hate watching media, let alone hate participation online via social media will indeed change you. Lest you are some tribesman living in the bush, you know you've experienced this first hand in the way people have changed in the past 15 years. Which, again is a change in yourself you risk and essentially cannot detect if you choose to only stay isolated within an echo chamber.

But let's get back to that whole moving goalposts thing there. Your new post has changed the reasoning for wanting participation. Whereas you previously said you wanted likeminded people to become angry within a *therapeutically* perpetual Two Minutes Hate session, now you state is it to try and initiate some sort of change with DMCH. Ok then, indulge me here:


Have any of you directly enquired to DMCH through an official channel as to what the status of binnacles, or whatever other things you feel they have failed to deliver, why they have not brought those products to market?
If any of you have asked, were you actually polite and professional?
If these products you want actually became available, would you actually purchase them? Or just refuse to as some sort of continuing protest?
Have you considered working with them on these products? Such as a deposit with a timetable to deliver said products with a refund if they fail to provide them?
Do you, or especially anyone else in the group you mentioned as the example we're speaking of, actually want DMCH to come through? I mean, with the entire purpose as previously mentioned being having something to complain about, that would eliminate the purpose of your bonding and potentially erase at least part of the identifies of some people. Is that something you're really willing to risk?


Otherwise citing your singular example of a group of grievances which became a central hub of communication, what's the point? Is that the counter to my argument? Or do you feel that we need yet ANOTHER DeLorean-centric communications platform? Is this once again someone trying to lay claim to the DeLorean marque? Because believe me it will fail.


Providing a counterexample to something you state as if it were indisputable fact isn't "moving the goalposts", it's just providing an example from my own personal experience as a counterpoint to your apparent assertion that venting can only result in a positive outcome when the people involved are already working on a shared goal. Sometimes the shared goal actually arises from a bunch of people finding common ground in being pissed off about the current state of things. Will that be the case here? I don't know. I'm not actually one of the cool kids in that chat group.

As far as your questions, I don't know what every single other person in the community has offered or done. I personally don't need a binnacle right now but I would be happy to purchase a quality ISM in the event that I needed to replace the rebuilt Bosch Mike McElhatten found for me (after two of DMCH's failed right out of the box). If DMCH or any other vendor is crowdfunding wheel hubs or taillights or any of the other out-of-production parts that people have mentioned being a future issue, I would potentially be interested in getting in on that, as I assume many others would as well. Some of us (including me) might be hesitant to front money to DMCH given our experiences and observations in the not-too-distant past but if there's a reasonable assurance that we'd get what we paid for and not some cockamamie NFT then it's not out of the question.

I don't speak for any of the other complainers, but I for one am not trying to "lay claim to the DeLorean marque" because if you've been paying attention to all the bitching about DMCH lately, THAT'S WHAT MOST OF US ARE PISSED OFF ABOUT. And no, bitching about DMCH isn't a big part of my identity or something I want to spend 24/7 doing, it's just something that I occasionally find enjoyable because occasionally DMCH PISSES ME OFF. You assuming that's the case based on a couple of posts here is a pretty big leap. Sorry but not everybody takes hours formulating their entire worldview/manifesto into a forum post. Some of us just shitpost in the moment, and in the moments that I was posting in this thread I was pretty annoyed with the latest of several annoying decisions by DMCH.

I eagerly await your next treatise on why I'm wrong, wrong, wrong, brimming over with wrongability. :cheers:

[DMCVegas]

Providing a counterexample to something you state as if it were indisputable fact isn't "moving the goalposts", it's just providing an example from my own personal experience as a counterpoint to your apparent assertion that venting can only result in a positive outcome when the people involved are already working on a shared goal. Sometimes the shared goal actually arises from a bunch of people finding common ground in being pissed off about the current state of things. Will that be the case here? I don't know. I'm not actually one of the cool kids in that chat group.

As far as your questions, I don't know what every single other person in the community has offered or done. I personally don't need a binnacle right now but I would be happy to purchase a quality ISM in the event that I needed to replace the rebuilt Bosch Mike McElhatten found for me (after two of DMCH's failed right out of the box). If DMCH or any other vendor is crowdfunding wheel hubs or taillights or any of the other out-of-production parts that people have mentioned being a future issue, I would potentially be interested in getting in on that, as I assume many others would as well. Some of us (including me) might be hesitant to front money to DMCH given our experiences and observations in the not-too-distant past but if there's a reasonable assurance that we'd get what we paid for and not some cockamamie NFT then it's not out of the question.

I don't speak for any of the other complainers, but I for one am not trying to "lay claim to the DeLorean marque" because if you've been paying attention to all the bitching about DMCH lately, THAT'S WHAT MOST OF US ARE PISSED OFF ABOUT. And no, bitching about DMCH isn't a big part of my identity or something I want to spend 24/7 doing, it's just something that I occasionally find enjoyable because occasionally DMCH PISSES ME OFF. You assuming that's the case based on a couple of posts here is a pretty big leap. Sorry but not everybody takes hours formulating their entire worldview/manifesto into a forum post. Some of us just shitpost in the moment, and in the moments that I was posting in this thread I was pretty annoyed with the latest of several annoying decisions by DMCH.

I eagerly await your next treatise on why I'm wrong, wrong, wrong, brimming over with wrongability. :cheers:

No, that wasn't a counter example. It was a completely different scenario, if not a strawman argument. Likely to again continue to ignore what I've written and avoid engaging it head-on. But hey, I'll play Devil's Advocate here.

In this alternative scenario in which you cite as an example with your personal experience, then please tell me what went right in that scenario. What are the lessons learned that you can apply within a new group to try and get the same results? Better yet, what are the results you would hope to achieve there that you seemingly cannot find here?

If you're not going to actually purchase a binnacle, then what in the world do you have to complain about? If you have absolutely no intention of purchasing a binnacle, not even as a spare nor for the purpose of crowdfunding replacements for others, then you have no argument. Although that is a prime example of that negativity spreading about. You know, being upset about something that has no bearing on you and coopting the emotions and discontent of others. That is not what you want to build relationships on, let alone something you want to purposefully invite into your life. Yet if you want to take that path, it awaits.

Perhaps it's just a sign of the times where people chose their opinions and political agendas not simply based upon what aligns with their own values, but rather what lets them fit-in since they're afraid of being an outsider with an different school of thought. This may not be the case with you, of course, but perhaps that's the appeal of these kinds of groups. Myself, I've no desire to be a "cool kid". I'm an adult and left school many years ago. But like my wife says: Some people never grow up, they just grow old.

But please, if you think that others would go for that idea of placing fully refundable deposits, then go ahead and round up a group and approach DMCH instead of complaining.

Guy Kawasaki once gave a fantastic answer to what he looks for in terms of innovation when he issues VC funding: He doesn't want things that merely stay ahead of the curve; he wants things that jump the curve entirely. Like ice. Used to be that to procure ice we'd have to wait for lakes to freeze over in the winter and cut out slabs of ice. Then we'd store them in icehouses over the course of the next year to keep ice available. The next phase were actual ice plants that thanks to commercial refrigeration could make ice on demand. Much like the past there was still the task of delivering ice to consumers. The final phase was when consumer refrigeration became available to the masses. Now we could make our own ice at home. Now in each of these scenarios you see the industry jumping the curve. You can have efforts to stay ahead of it such as better insulation for those primitive icehouses, but the ice plants negated that. Who cares about melting when you can make more whenever you life? Or perhaps switching from horse-drawn carriages to motorized trucks for faster & cheaper delivery. But who cares about that when you now can make ice at home?

Such is what I've witnessed with the DeLorean community. We went from a quarterly magazine answering submitted questions months later to USENET where people could reply directly. Then we saw a more efficient mailing list in the form of the DML arise that reached more people faster. Now we had instant emails or daily digests. Then here now we have TALK. A place where we've gone from waiting months for an answer, to hours, to relative minutes. Plus instead of a singular archive everything is organized into threads. That is jumping the curve. Yet I have also witnessed many people over the years try and either sabotage these community hubs outright, or simply try and construct alternatives because of disagreements or whatever. Trying to stay ahead of the curve with various Yahoo! Groups, TODAY, and now Facebook groups. Everyone trying to create the next thing to become the center of the entire community. So while you yourself are not planning to try and corner the entire community (and my apologies for inferring as much), that just seems to be the same old goal with these new groups as history repeats itself yet again.

Are you wrong? Having a different opinion doesn't automatically make you wrong. It's just that I'm not seeing a counter argument. And perhaps that may be due to us not simplistically being on opposing sides, but because we're chasing two completely different ideas here.

[DaraSue]

No, that wasn't a counter example. It was a completely different scenario, if not a strawman argument. Likely to again continue to ignore what I've written and avoid engaging it head-on. But hey, I'll play Devil's Advocate here.

Dude, how have I ignored what you've written? You literally wrote an entire essay about how nothing good can ever come of joining a group that's specifically for venting. I responded with an example of an instance in which it did. Sorry if it wasn't the "OMG you're right, thank you for enlightening me! I can only hope to ascend to your level of Zen clarity!" response you were maybe hoping for.


In this alternative scenario in which you cite as an example with your personal experience, then please tell me what went right in that scenario. What are the lessons learned that you can apply within a new group to try and get the same results? Better yet, what are the results you would hope to achieve there that you seemingly cannot find here?

As I already said, some of the things that went right in that scenario were that people actually ended up having informative and helpful discussions about both fandom and personal issues and producing a lot of creative writing. It wouldn't necessarily be an identical scenario in a DeLorean comm because that was an anonymous posting comm and presumably in a car group people actually want to know who they're talking to. But the people in that community, even though they were initially just a bunch of anonymous wankers, were still able to find they had common interests and have fun that wasn't solely related to bitching about fandom bullshit. That's the lesson, if there is one. As for results in some hypothetical other group? Honestly at the time I just wanted to bitch about DMCH's shenanigans without getting blacklisted. Not everything has to be some epic moral crusade.


If you're not going to actually purchase a binnacle, then what in the world do you have to complain about? If you have absolutely no intention of purchasing a binnacle, not even as a spare nor for the purpose of crowdfunding replacements for others, then you have no argument. Although that is a prime example of that negativity spreading about. You know, being upset about something that has no bearing on you and coopting the emotions and discontent of others. That is not what you want to build relationships on, let alone something you want to purposefully invite into your life. Yet if you want to take that path, it awaits.

It's not about whether or not I personally need a binnacle this instant. It's about a larger pattern of DMCH not delivering on stuff they announce (or delivering on it in absurd Monkey's Paw form, as in the case of the Alpha 5) and selling cheaply made replacement parts, all while C&Ding people for using the word "DeLorean" on their products and blacklisting owners for making fun of them on Facebook. If DMCH wants to be the second coming of DeLorean One, that does affect me as an owner and when I'm debating whether or not to sell my car, it's a tick in the "sell" column.



Such is what I've witnessed with the DeLorean community. We went from a quarterly magazine answering submitted questions months later to USENET where people could reply directly. Then we saw a more efficient mailing list in the form of the DML arise that reached more people faster. Now we had instant emails or daily digests. Then here now we have TALK. A place where we've gone from waiting months for an answer, to hours, to relative minutes. Plus instead of a singular archive everything is organized into threads. That is jumping the curve. Yet I have also witnessed many people over the years try and either sabotage these community hubs outright, or simply try and construct alternatives because of disagreements or whatever. Trying to stay ahead of the curve with various Yahoo! Groups, TODAY, and now Facebook groups. Everyone trying to create the next thing to become the center of the entire community. So while you yourself are not planning to try and corner the entire community (and my apologies for inferring as much), that just seems to be the same old goal with these new groups as history repeats itself yet again.

By "sabotage" do you mean actively trying to delete/hack/troll a comm into unusability or just starting a new comm that's more in line with what they want? If it's the former then that's obviously a bad thing but I don't necessarily think the latter always is. I'm not a particular fan of Facebook for technical discussions either but there's obviously something about it that many people find enjoyable or at least easy to use. I also don't necessarily agree that everyone is trying to become the center of the community. If anything, it may be the opposite: people just trying to make their own corners without the people they don't want to deal with. Which is good and bad.



Are you wrong? Having a different opinion doesn't automatically make you wrong. It's just that I'm not seeing a counter argument. And perhaps that may be due to us not simplistically being on opposing sides, but because we're chasing two completely different ideas here.

It does kind of seem like we're talking past each other here. It's been a reminder about the futility of arguing on the internet so thanks for that I guess? :cheers1:

[JBaker4981]

Bickering aside.... I think that we can all agree that everything that DMCH has done with the franchise has been counter-productive to the most basic desire that everyone in the DeLorean community has, which is quality parts availability at an affordable cost.

[Michael]

All we did was make a place where we could cut up with each other and have laid back conversations about what we see going on in the DeLorean community, (and the world) without being censored and silenced and you guys are over here writing novels about it.

[Timeless]

It does kind of seem like we're talking past each other here. It's been a reminder about the futility of arguing on the internet so thanks for that I guess? :cheers1:
+2. Arguing on the internet is like the special Olympics. Even if you win - you're still retarded.

[Victor]

+2. Arguing on the internet is like the special Olympics. Even if you win - you're still retarded.

😂

[81dmc]

https://media.tenor.com/Ql__5KB-oGMAAAAM/popcorn.gif











Oh yeah and Facebook can kiss my ass.:tongue:

[dtavres]

Shame. Had nothing but positive experiences with MW.

It will be FAAARRR better now without the FakeDMC anchor around their necks.

[dtavres]

Instead they've forgotten the DMC roots where for decades owners had to find parts and repair their cars on their own. Today owners can readily return to that model, but with the help of 3rd party vendors, and new technology which makes it easier to obtain parts.

Exactly... DeLoreanGo (https://www.deloreango.com/) and DeLorean Parts Northwest (https://www.delorean-parts.com/) has been a great supplier of parts - and THEY actually CARE about the car AND the community (unlike #FakeDMC)

And, with crossover parts lists, like www.DeLoreanDirectory.com/parts (https://www.deloreandirectory.com/parts), it's pretty easy to find A LOT of parts - that are usually a) better, b) cheaper, and c) not from a company that purports to care about you.

[dtavres]

...But I've always said that keeping cars on the road is paramount. You do that, and everything else such as the public image takes care of itself. I do not like carburetors compared to fuel injection, but I have always advocated that if a carb swap is what can keep a DeLorean automobile on the road, then please do it.

Amen. And whatever owners want to do with THEIR cars - it's up to them. I may be sad to see a DeLorean chopped up and widened, but it's not my car. They that owner doesn't care about the community or preserving a 'classic' car, so let 'em do with their property as they please.

Ultimately #FakeDMC / stephen wynne isn't as smart as they think they are... Their plan is fairly obvious: C&D everyone they can, try to "build" and "protect" a brand they didn't create (but will re-write history,) so that they can SELL THE BRAND to the highest bidder. It's that simple. Tons of companies have done the same thing... the difference here is, the majority of those other companies didn't have a customer base of just a few thousand people, but a fan base of millions.

I'm SO looking forward to getting a C&D from #FakeDMC some day.

And, I'm not worried about their blacklist in the slightest. Unless they start pulling an Ed Bernstein and requiring VINs to buy parts, I'll just have my aunt, or neighbor, or boss, or the paperboy order parts I can't get anywhere else.