failed smog

[glockworks21]

Now that ive done all the vod work set dwell and had the idle surge under conrtrol the car is running as smooth as it ever has and if failed smog as a gross polluter.
should I just lean the fuel mixture out so it runs like s*** and re test?

[AugustneverEnds]

Was the test conducted with your car warmed up? What's your oxygen sensor's story? You might be running in open loop. That is where I would start.

While I'm here thinking, how is your catalytic converter? It can look fine on the outside but be completely shot inside.

[glockworks21]

I cant remove o2. I may try again this weekend. Im going to take axle out to get more room. the timing is at 13deg it was 15 last time when it passed. It was fully warmed up when i got it there. I had a torch on the base of that o2 sensor when i tried removing a couple weeks ago. I wonder if that damaged it. I called 4 different muffler shops today to see if someone would break that sensor free and nobody wants to touch it. Im going to set the timing back to 15 and lean out the mixture and see if It will pass unless someone else has another suggestion.


Or im just going to move out of this state..

[bytes311]

Do you hear the frequency valve buzzing with the motor running?

[David T]

California is TOUGH on emissions. You may need a tune-up, plugs, wires, valve adjustment, O2 sensor, air filter, and mixture adjustment. Just tweaking things doesn't always get it done.

[mhanch]

Was the test conducted with your car warmed up? What's your oxygen sensor's story? You might be running in open loop. That is where I would start.

While I'm here thinking, how is your catalytic converter? It can look fine on the outside but be completely shot inside.

Can you replace just the catalytic Converter or is a whole new exhaust the best bet?

[Rich]

Now that ive done all the vod work set dwell and had the idle surge under conrtrol the car is running as smooth as it ever has and if failed smog as a gross polluter.
should I just lean the fuel mixture out so it runs like s*** and re test?

No, don?t lean it out til it runs poorly.

As others say it could be the cat or the O2 sensor or both. Or something more. Try to keep your cat til you rule out other issues.

Did this car pass CA smog before? How recently?

Did your smog tech suggest anything? Failing at over 2X on NOx and HC isn?t even close to success as you can tell.

Step 1 is getting your system into closed loop - where the dwell will regularly cycle up and down a few degrees like it should. Getting a known good 02 sensor into it may be critical. Somebody can get yours out of the manifold. Be sure the replacement gets a little antiseize treatment.

Send a PM to forum user vwdmc16. He?s a long-time D owner in your area who will know which shops can assist with sensor removal and sorting your emissions or he may offer to take it on at his shop if it is so equipped.

Just know that a stock D powertrain can meet CA smog every time once the components are humming like they should.

[Ron]

I'd suggest checking the dwell. (If you haven't since the O2 sensor met the torch ;-)

[glockworks21]

I'd suggest checking the dwell. (If you haven't since the O2 sensor met the torch ;-)



Dwell was way high. 20s to 40s on 8cyl mode... dont know what made that change. Would that be enough to make it fail?

Yes it passed smog 2 years ago after I adjusted timing. since then ive done plugs wires all vac line vod included fuel lines ect. Frequency valve is humming all the time.

I just let it heat up and checked dwell. There was a point after it was hot and swinging high that i made adjustments and it stopped swinging for about a minute or so.. then it started up again. I need to get that o2 sensor out....

[Rich]

I just let it heat up and checked dwell. There was a point after it was hot and swinging high that i made adjustments and it stopped swinging for about a minute or so.. then it started up again. I need to get that o2 sensor out....

Yes, you do.

Check out post #7 in this thread for possible local support on that.

[glockworks21]

Yes, you do.

Check out post #7 in this thread for possible local support on that.

I did. Thanks for your help..I will reach out to him.

[Chris 16409]

With numbers that high I would say maybe your CAT is bad. Usually these cars do very well on CO and Hydrocarbons. The NOx are usually the tough one. Since you've been labeled a Gross Polluter that can complicate things. Do you know anybody in a smog free county?

[AugustneverEnds]

Can you replace just the catalytic Converter or is a whole new exhaust the best bet?

You can replace just the catalytic converter. Unless you want a sportier sounding exhaust there is really no need for an entire new exhaust, the stock muffler is stainless steel so corrosion is not an issue.

[AugustneverEnds]

I cant remove o2. I may try again this weekend. Im going to take axle out to get more room. the timing is at 13deg it was 15 last time when it passed. It was fully warmed up when i got it there. I had a torch on the base of that o2 sensor when i tried removing a couple weeks ago. I wonder if that damaged it. I called 4 different muffler shops today to see if someone would break that sensor free and nobody wants to touch it. Im going to set the timing back to 15 and lean out the mixture and see if It will pass unless someone else has another suggestion.


Or im just going to move out of this state..

Yes oxygen sensors can be a serious PITA to remove but I think there is a strong chance it's what is making your car behave the way it is. How does your exhaust smell? Strong? If you rub your finger on the inside of the tail pipe is there soot like residue caked there?

Besides heating the O2 keep spraying it with penetrant. I recently tried Mechanic in a Bottle and it worked a miracle.

Well if you move to New York we don't have emissions tests on vehicles over 25 years old so that's food for thought.

[glockworks21]

I got it out.. removing axle on one side, getting car high enough for me to get under with couple different penetrants and heat i was able to get it.
thanks for all the help. for anyone having this much trouble in the future just remove the axle. I should have done that first to get better leverage.

So it seems to run fine but now dwell isnt swinging. I got the o2 sensor from dgo. frequency valve is buzzing constantly. I read an old thread that maybe it needs to be bosch unit if this happens? I did not get the bosch.. Is there something else I should check? any of the california guys think this will pass smog without it swinging? Im on the clock now to get that done.

Thanks

Dave

[Bitsyncmaster]

I got it out.. removing axle on one side, getting car high enough for me to get under with couple different penetrants and heat i was able to get it.
thanks for all the help. for anyone having this much trouble in the future just remove the axle. I should have done that first to get better leverage.

So it seems to run fine but now dwell isnt swinging. I got the o2 sensor from dgo. frequency valve is buzzing constantly. I read an old thread that maybe it needs to be bosch unit if this happens? I did not get the bosch.. Is there something else I should check? any of the california guys think this will pass smog without it swinging? Im on the clock now to get that done.

Thanks

Dave

Does it stay at 45 deg.? It would if the O2 sensor is not connected. I used a Bosch sensor bought at auto parts store. But I had to splice the wire with a 1/4" pin with Bosch 11027

[glockworks21]

Does it stay at 45 deg.? It would if the O2 sensor is not connected. I used a Bosch sensor bought at auto parts store. But I had to splice the wire with a 1/4" pin with Bosch 11027

It was just sitting at 22 idling smooth. I started to drive it around and the idle started jumping up and down about 700 rpm.. i pulled back into garage and i guess i didnt realize the fans stopped as i was hooking up the dwell meter again. Then it started to boil over quickly. .. fan fuse jumpers were melting. engine management fuse was super hot but none were blown.
such a roller coaster of emotion.
I get one thing done and then this.. I dont know wtf happened.. It cant be related to the o2 sensor.. Just my luck i guess...



I fixed the jumper and it wont kick fans on. I walked away from it for now.....

[Bitsyncmaster]

If you started getting idle hunt then the lambda probably started working (should have swinging dwell). But now you have another problem with the cooling fans. Jumper your otterstat wires and then the fans should run all the time your key is on.

[glockworks21]

thanks Dave for your help on the pm.
I got the fans going. car started fine. today. warmed up and idled fine. fans kicked in as they should.
Right now it wont swing.. it sits at 22 all the time. ive adjusted the fuel mixture screw in both directions and it never drops from 22 on the dwell meter.
What should I do next?

Thanks again

Dave.

[Ron]

Try doing the tests at D:04:15 in the Work Shop Manual.

[Bitsyncmaster]

It seems like your O2 sensor is not working with it holding 22 (on 8 cylinder scale). It normally takes the engine warming up the O2 about 3 minuets or more at idle. The lambda ECU is waiting for the O2 impedance to go below 2 M/ohm (gets hot). Normally with our engine which runs rich cold the O2 outputs voltage above 0.5 volts after it warms up. When the engine is lean the O2 voltage drops below 0.5 volts.

[glockworks21]

replace the 02 sensor this morning and it started swinging again. I got the fuel mixture right. Idle is smooth.
Took it back for the re test and got the same result. gross polluter.. none of the numbers changed from the test a few days ago..
it passed easily 2 years ago.
Their only thoughts are o2 or cat.. I know a couple of you mentioned in this thread it may be the cat.. at this point what else could it be?
there were few miles put on this car over the years before i got it., Ive put about 3k on it in last 2 years. I dont know enough about catalytic converters. 39k on car I dont know what to do at this point..

[glockworks21]

I dont even see any for sale

[AugustneverEnds]

The mileage doesn't count here as much as the age of the CAT. The honeycomb-like contents inside the converter probably has crumbled and no longer filters anything from the exhaust gases.

Here's one option: https://www.deloreango.com/us/catalytic-converter.html

I bet if you gave DMC California, Northwest, or Midwest a call they will have some options available too.

[glockworks21]

The mileage doesn't count here as much as the age of the CAT. The honeycomb-like contents inside the converter probably has crumbled and no longer filters anything from the exhaust gases.

Here's one option: https://www.deloreango.com/us/catalytic-converter.html

I bet if you gave DMC California, Northwest, or Midwest a call they will have some options available too.

I emailed arran about that one. I dont know enough about cats.. Its less restrictive but will it be enough to pass in ca? If that works I will order it. the smaller size will be nice to reinstall. Getting the old one out looks like hell.

thanks.

[AugustneverEnds]

Removing the CAT isn't so bad if you're not trying to save it. Dispense with niceties, take a cut off tool, slice the studs off and cut the U-clamp. Smack with a hammer if necessary, pull it off, done.

[glockworks21]

Removing the CAT isn't so bad if you're not trying to save it. Dispense with niceties, take a cut off tool, slice the studs off and cut the U-clamp. Smack with a hammer if necessary, pull it off, done.


Thanks I planned on cutting it out. Im going to order the dgo euro one, If it works then at least we have an answer what will pass in california.
on the bright side i will be able to change the motor mount on that side that ive had for months...

Thanks again..
I will update smog specs when done,

[glockworks21]

i didnt have to cut anything out.. this cat is hollow.. there is no way it would have pass emmisions 2 years ago. do they deteriorate and all the debris go into the muffler? Sorry if thats a stupid question. I think im going to just replace muffler also.. thoughts?

[Bitsyncmaster]

i didnt have to cut anything out.. this cat is hollow.. there is no way it would have pass emmisions 2 years ago. do they deteriorate and all the debris go into the muffler? Sorry if thats a stupid question. I think im going to just replace muffler also.. thoughts?

I don't think it would be clean like that without the PO doing a hollow out work. How it passed before is a mystery. Yes you would have some chunks of CAT in the muffler if the CAT broke up. You should drop the muffler and shake it to make sure it is clean.

[Helirich]

I have heard of cars passing after the cat is removed or gutted. Wasn?t a Delorean and I?m not sure how they adjusted them. But it is possible. My best advice is to move out of commiefornia. (I know, no help)

[glockworks21]

I have heard of cars passing after the cat is removed or gutted. Wasn?t a Delorean and I?m not sure how they adjusted them. But it is possible. My best advice is to move out of commiefornia. (I know, no help)

not moving out of cali just yet
just waiting on the new one. ordered new heat shield also.

Hope this fixes it

[Rich]

I don't think it would be clean like that without the PO doing a hollow out work. How it passed before is a mystery.

I agree. It looks like somebody made this "cat" into a bypass pipe. It sure isn't a cat anymore.

There may be stories about how a car without a cat can pass a smog test but if true then all the auto mfgrs are wasting a lot of money on cats.

The most likely way to pass the test and then sell the car with an empty cat is to perform the test with a good cat (so it passes) and then swap in an empty cat before the sale. Having the smog tech cheat on the smog report is the other likely way. Both are highly illegal.

Things this owner may want to consider doing along with the planned repairs include

- Contacting the seller. Seller may want to help sort out what happened, perhaps even support the work in some way. A car can't be sold in CA without passing the smog test at most 90 days before the title transfers. Even an "as is" sale is subject to this rule. So having the smog data from 2yrs ago (location, technician ID, results) might be useful.
- Making an appointment (https://asktheref.org/appointments/scheduling/) with a local BAR smog test referee. The ref may be able to roll back the Gross Polluter designation given the evidence. The ref may also be able to retrieve the data around the testing and the title transfer if the seller can't or won't.

[glockworks21]

I agree. It looks like somebody made this "cat" into a bypass pipe. It sure isn't a cat anymore.

There may be stories about how a car without a cat can pass a smog test but if true then all the auto mfgrs are wasting a lot of money on cats.

The most likely way to pass the test and then sell the car with an empty cat is to perform the test with a good cat (so it passes) and then swap in an empty cat before the sale. Having the smog tech cheat on the smog report is the other likely way. Both are highly illegal.

Things this owner may want to consider doing along with the planned repairs include

- Contacting the seller. Seller may want to help sort out what happened, perhaps even support the work in some way. A car can't be sold in CA without passing the smog test at most 90 days before the title transfers. Even an "as is" sale is subject to this rule. So having the smog data from 2yrs ago (location, technician ID, results) might be useful.
- Making an appointment (https://asktheref.org/appointments/scheduling/) with a local BAR smog test referee. The ref may be able to roll back the Gross Polluter designation given the evidence. The ref may also be able to retrieve the data around the testing and the title transfer if the seller can't or won't.


great advice for anyone bringing in a car to california. After what ive learned that last few days my theory is that I had the fuel mixture too rich for too long after some of the work i did. Im hoping that I burned out the rest of what was left in that CAT over the last year or so and thats why it looks that way. Otherwise Im at a loss.. The car passed 2 years ago when i shipped it here. The numbers were well below the limits for california. Its the same shop i used then. My hope is that it was falling apart inside and I just sped up the process.. I should have answers by the end of the week. I will post the smog test results (good or bad) when i get the parts in to help anyone in the future.

[bytes311]

I'm genuinely curious to hear your results using the DGo cat. As far as I'm aware, the cat needs to be "CARB compliant" in CA, or at least have a sticker indicating such.

[David T]

Having the mixture too rich would turn the muffler red hot. After a while the cat will glow too. It will eventually fill up with soot and block the exhaust. There would still be parts and pieces of the support and the honeycomb inside the cat. The fact that it is empty means someone purposefully removed the contents either to "improve" the exhaust flow or to remove the blockage caused by an over-rich mixture but still look like the car has a cat. The only way to pass emissions in CA is to have a functioning cat (along with all of the other emissions systems functioning properly AND a well tuned motor). California is TOUGH when it comes to emissions, even on old cars. Most States don't care after so many years.

[glockworks21]

Having the mixture too rich would turn the muffler red hot. After a while the cat will glow too. It will eventually fill up with soot and block the exhaust. There would still be parts and pieces of the support and the honeycomb inside the cat. The fact that it is empty means someone purposefully removed the contents either to "improve" the exhaust flow or to remove the blockage caused by an over-rich mixture but still look like the car has a cat. The only way to pass emissions in CA is to have a functioning cat (along with all of the other emissions systems functioning properly AND a well tuned motor). California is TOUGH when it comes to emissions, even on old cars. Most States don't care after so many years.


What else could I have screwed up? timing is on. Dwell is set. new fuel lines, plugs wires. all vod work vacuume lines. I used the bosch o2 sensor 11027 that was suggested. I agree that the CAT seems too clean but my theory of me burning out the rest was wishful thinking. I have not touched anything with exhaust since i got it. the numbers on the first smog 2 years ago were 1/4 of what they are now. If that cat was always hollow how is that possible? could it be something with air mixture on butterfly assembly? Three brass screws that i did mess around with once and not sure i got right? something else im missing? what would cause those numbers to quadruple?
Sorry this is dragging on..

[AugustneverEnds]

Again age is an important factor here, catalytic converters won't last forever it's just most cars are scrap before they need a replacement CAT.

Correct me if I have this wrong, you have had your car for two years and the last time it was smog checked it passed easily. Did you own the car when it passed that last test or the previous owner? As it has been suggested here the previous owner may have found an unscrupulous operator to give the car an illegal pass. If that is not the case, I don't think it's out of the question that the CAT has finally collapsed into dust leaving you with a hollow core and buckets of frustration, again the honeycomb was going to crumble away at some point.

It never hurts to check all possible leak points. You said your vacuum lines are good and the dwell is correct. You also stated the car is idling fine. The trio of brass screws are supposed to be shut tight. (They maintained idle speed on earlier PRVs that did not have an idle speed motor) Are they? If it makes you feel better you can dab some sealant on them but I'd be really surprised if they are the cause of your troubles.

Since the dwell is reading ok that would seem to rule out the Lambda ECU and its connection points. You have the right part number Bosch oxygen sensor. Now you just need a functional CAT.

Don't be sorry for keeping us updated, we are all here to help where we can and learn.

[Helirich]

What else could I have screwed up? timing is on. Dwell is set. new fuel lines, plugs wires. all vod work vacuume lines. I used the bosch o2 sensor 11027 that was suggested. I agree that the CAT seems too clean but my theory of me burning out the rest was wishful thinking. I have not touched anything with exhaust since i got it. the numbers on the first smog 2 years ago were 1/4 of what they are now. If that cat was always hollow how is that possible? could it be something with air mixture on butterfly assembly? Three brass screws that i did mess around with once and not sure i got right? something else im missing? what would cause those numbers to quadruple?
Sorry this is dragging on..

As mentioned, most states don?t require old cars to meet the emissions. (It is kind of ridiculous) It could be tech that checked yours decided to pass it for common sense reasons. That tech might not work there or he might have been threatened with fines or such and now you have a problem. I do know of someone that passed emissions with a deleted cat on a Ford 302 truck. It maybe that emissions are easier on trucks or the emissions systems that involve a dilution air pump are easier to pass. Also, that was in a different state.

Was the car running good when it passed back then? It would seem like you would have to run it very lean to pass without a cat. I would think it would not run good and probably hot if it is possible.

[Rich]

What else could I have screwed up? timing is on. Dwell is set. new fuel lines, plugs wires. all vod work vacuume lines. I used the bosch o2 sensor 11027 that was suggested. I agree that the CAT seems too clean but my theory of me burning out the rest was wishful thinking. I have not touched anything with exhaust since i got it. the numbers on the first smog 2 years ago were 1/4 of what they are now.

If that cat was always hollow how is that possible? could it be something with air mixture on butterfly assembly? Three brass screws that i did mess around with once and not sure i got right? something else im missing? what would cause those numbers to quadruple?

Interesting backstory there.

The system passed smog with a 50% margin after you brought it into CA and you never touched the exhaust since then. That's a good place to start. At that point did it still have a good cat? I would guess it did. We'll probably never know for sure unless your seller can inform you about that. The missing data about where your cat matrix went (if you ever had any since you bought it) includes whether you hear anything banging around inside the muffler now that it's out. Also, do you recall seeing ANY debris fall out of the cat when you pulled it? Have you looked inside it with a borescope or inspection mirror to see if any of the ceramic matrix was left inside it?

You said you performed a smoke test and attended to the leaks at some point. While you wait for the new cat you might want to repeat the smoke test checking for new vac leaks. Even little ones can cause problems. Try doing it in the dark using a good flashlight to spot the leaking smoke.

As mentioned, if you're getting good mixture/dwell response, the timing is correct and the components are all known good ones then you're pretty well set.

After you get your DGo cat installed things should improve a lot.

[glockworks21]

Thanks guys. try to answer all the questions..

cant contact po. car came from new jersey. I dont know how strict they are on inspection or smog. shipped it here without seeing it. only inspection pics.
when i got it hear it actually failed the first smog because the timing was 23 deg and it was leaking fuel very slowly from the accumulator. I also found a vacuum hose not connected. all the other numbers were still low... I fixed all that in a day and it passed easily the next day. so yes, I did have it when it passed two years ago. It ran ok, not sure it it was lean at that point i had no idea. I had just got it and didnt know much of anything.

the brass screws are all closed. So i guess i got that right. thank you for confirming that.

I dont hear anything rattling in the muffler. i dont remember anything coming out of the pipes. no debris when i took out the cat.

I watched those guys doing the inspection. they never looked under for the CAT. the oe one has no stamping on it. If for some reason they ask about the aftermarket one im just telling them it the only replacement. i dont think that will be a problem.

Everything is supposed to arrive tomorrow. Im off work and will try to get it back together. I have to pay for smog again since ive already used my free retake. So i will get it together, smoke and dwell test one more time and take it in.

Should i use any sealant on gasket? Seems like everyone is 50/50. Just do it to be safe?

Thanks again.. I will update soon...

Dave

[Bitsyncmaster]

I don't think the CAT can break up on it's own. It can plug up if it was using leaded gas, that was an option back when unleaded first showed up.

[David T]

New Jersey used to be very tough but not on old cars anymore. Back when I used to have mine inspected they failed me once because they couldn't test the gas cap! They didn't have the proper adapter. Eventually they exempted Deloreans from that test. BTW leaded gas would contaminate the cat so it wouldn't work but did not plug it up. What plugs a cat up is too much hydrocarbons (fuel) getting into it.

[Helirich]

I don't think the CAT can break up on it's own. It can plug up if it was using leaded gas, that was an option back when unleaded first showed up.

A cat can definitely break up on its own. I had one do it. But it didn?t break up nice and clean like that. It broke out the center couple inches and clogged up my muffler to the point that the whole motor ran hot. (Again this was not on a Delorean)

[Bitsyncmaster]

A cat can definitely break up on its own. I had one do it. But it didn?t break up nice and clean like that. It broke out the center couple inches and clogged up my muffler to the point that the whole motor ran hot. (Again this was not on a Delorean)

Good to know. I've had a couple cats start to rattle but that turned out just the large block of honeycomb lost it's seal around the metal. Otherwise it looked good inside.

[mhanch]

Does the DGO cat need a heat SHield/Wrap?

[Helirich]

Good to know. I've had a couple cats start to rattle but that turned out just the large block of honeycomb lost it's seal around the metal. Otherwise it looked good inside.

I have to admit that I ran out of gas on the highway. I was towing a helicopter with full tanks of av-gas. Av-gas is 100LL which stands for “Low Lead”, but in fact, it is very high in Lead. Of course, you know what I did, dumped the Av-gas in my truck. It was about 1000 miles later when I started having heat trouble. Ended up burning a valve.

[glockworks21]

...

[glockworks21]

failed again.. not near as bad.. not gross polluter. The cat made a huge difference. just not enough...

If its running lean im told that may be hurting my numbers
can someone clear up dwell settings? The higher the numbers mean the engine is running rich correct? if i want it to run richer the swing would be say 20-28? lean would be 12-20? is that right?


Ive adjusted timing and put in a cdc detergent thats supposed to help lower co2. Im going to drive it for a week or so and run through that tank and try again.. They didnt charge me this time because i think they felt bad.

[Bitsyncmaster]

failed again.. not near as bad.. not gross polluter. The cat made a huge difference. just not enough...

If its running lean im told that may be hurting my numbers
can someone clear up dwell settings? The higher the numbers mean the engine is running rich correct? if i want it to run richer the swing would be say 20-28? lean would be 12-20? is that right?


Ive adjusted timing and put in a cdc detergent thats supposed to help lower co2. Im going to drive it for a week or so and run through that tank and try again.. They didnt charge me this time because i think they felt bad.

Your numbers are using dwell reading on an 8 cylinder scale. If your meter has 4 cylinder you use the book values (double those numbers you stated). You really are not changing mixture when the lambda is running closed loop. Your adjusting the center of the lambda system so it stays running closed loop under most variables. The stock narrow band O2 sensor holds the mixture at 14.7 air fuel ratio (AFR).

Now with your lambda centered (normal 40 deg dwell 4 cylinder scale), when you press the wide open throttle your dwell jumps to 53 deg and the engine runs rich because it is not running closed loop.

[David T]

Just turning the mixture screw doesn't always get you the results you are looking for. If you have a bad/dirty injector or a valve that needs adjustment, (or something else that needs fixing) no amount of adjustment of the mixture screw is going to do it.

[cis6409]

failed again.. not near as bad.. not gross polluter. The cat made a huge difference. just not enough...

If its running lean im told that may be hurting my numbers
can someone clear up dwell settings? The higher the numbers mean the engine is running rich correct? if i want it to run richer the swing would be say 20-28? lean would be 12-20? is that right?


Ive adjusted timing and put in a cdc detergent thats supposed to help lower co2. Im going to drive it for a week or so and run through that tank and try again.. They didnt charge me this time because i think they felt bad.

Yes agreed ,
If the dwell numbers are high on the scale you need to lean the idle mixture, if the dwell readings are low you need to richen the idle mixture.

the dwell number your reading is what the frequency valve is doing to 'compensate' for the said base idle co condition setting

[Bitsyncmaster]

I've been thinking a lot about your failed emissions. Since you passed at the same place before, maybe they changed or updated their equipment or software. The calibration should be the same but maybe the speed of their sample is faster. I think you said your car was hunting badly. I've found most idle hunt is caused by the lambda system over correcting because it does not wait for the delay of the fuel system to respond to the correction. But I'm not sure if that would be a problem with the testing above idle speeds.

[cis6409]

plus one on the injectors to as david mentioned. An injector flow test might be helpful here. I had injectors that were fine at idle flow test but turn crap when sensor flap was pressed a third of the way down

[glockworks21]

Thank you guys
I will pull the injectors this weekend and see.. paper cups and then turn on ignition to see flow? I did have them out a few months ago to change all the seals i wish i would have checked then...

Dave im sending you a pm


Thanks,

[David T]

plus one on the injectors to as david mentioned. An injector flow test might be helpful here. I had injectors that were fine at idle flow test but turn crap when sensor flap was pressed a third of the way down

It is not just flow. A bad spray pattern is enough to mess up your emissions. Because California is so tough you have to have everything "just right" to pass.

[cis6409]

Yes David is correct spray pattern is very important. I didn't describe it very well . They should all spray in a nice fine cone shape atomised spray.

Jumper the rpm relay by connecting the purple and white wire with the brown wire. That ll make the pump run for the test.
They should all have as close to the same amount of volume in each jar to.

[glockworks21]

Thanks, I found a video on jumping the relay. (i needed the visual as im scared to short something out) I also read old thread that explained what to do if one or more are leaking or spraying on their own. (swapping with working one to see if FD is bad) . I did not see anyone recommending what to clean them with if i find faulty one. I assume soak them in something for a period of time. What would be best option? Hoping not to buy injectors right now..

Thanks for any advice.

[Bitsyncmaster]

I agree that testing the injectors is your next step. When you push the air flap, don't press it very far since the testing is mostly low RPMs. Do they put any load on it (Dyno) during the test?

[glockworks21]

I agree that testing the injectors is your next step. When you push the air flap, don't press it very far since the testing is mostly low RPMs. Do they put any load on it (Dyno) during the test?



yes they have to dyno it i believe cause of its age..

[David T]

There is no good way to clean or test the injectors without the injector cleaner/tester. About all you can do is put a bottle of Techron in the gas tank and hope for the best. Or send the injectors out to be cleaned.

[glockworks21]

Yes David is correct spray pattern is very important. I didn't describe it very well . They should all spray in a nice fine cone shape atomised spray.

Jumper the rpm relay by connecting the purple and white wire with the brown wire. That ll make the pump run for the test.
They should all have as close to the same amount of volume in each jar to.



they all spray in a cone shape but they are not completely atomized. Maybe thats the problem.
none of them leak. They all filled up the cups equally.

I also changed the fuel filter today. I dont know how old the other one was. probably wont make any difference in my test..

Not feeling confident.....

[Bitsyncmaster]

they all spray in a cone shape but they are not completely atomized. Maybe thats the problem.
none of them leak. They all filled up the cups equally.

I also changed the fuel filter today. I dont know how old the other one was. probably wont make any difference in my test..

Not feeling confident.....

If you want to run your next smog test with my redesigned lambda ECU, send me your shipping address.

[glockworks21]

If you want to run your next smog test with my redesigned lambda ECU, send me your shipping address.


thanks for the offer. I think im going to try smog one more time Wednesday morning, 2 years ago when it passed i took it early when they opened and it was 30 degrees cooler outside(about a 15 minute drive to shop) This year ive been arriving in afternoon when its been in the 90s. (i know this is a reach but running out of options)
I dialed the timing in perfectly today. changed fuel filter. removed injectors after i tested them and soaked them in cleaner for about 3 hours. checked the dwell again and I have that detergent in the tank. I will do a couple late night runs over the next 2 days to run through that detergent....
If no difference i guess im buying injectors as they spray in cone shape but are not as atomized as ive seen in videos...

[Bitsyncmaster]

thanks for the offer. I think im going to try smog one more time Wednesday morning, 2 years ago when it passed i took it early when they opened and it was 30 degrees cooler outside(about a 15 minute drive to shop) This year ive been arriving in afternoon when its been in the 90s. (i know this is a reach but running out of options)
I dialed the timing in perfectly today. changed fuel filter. removed injectors after i tested them and soaked them in cleaner for about 3 hours. checked the dwell again and I have that detergent in the tank. I will do a couple late night runs over the next 2 days to run through that detergent....
If no difference i guess im buying injectors as they spray in cone shape but are not as atomized as ive seen in videos...

Good idea to go early. The offer still stands for the ECU. You would not have to install it, just unplug the connector from your old one and plug it into mine.

[David T]

If you go, especially early, make sure the car is completely warmed up. There are bottles of stuff that claim they can help make a car pass but I am skeptical. Not only must the injectors flow equally and have good patterns, they should all crack open at about the same pressure. I have used Techron and it can clean a fuel system up. It will take using a whole tank of fuel. A clogged fuel filter would make the car run badly and not pass but if it seems to be running OK and no difference after changing the filter, then it won't help. Changing a dirty air filter WILL make a difference. If you do fail again consider doing a full-blown tune-up, spark plugs, wires, cap, rotor, adjust the valves, compression test, etc. All it takes is one cylinder not firing completely to fail.

[glockworks21]

If you go, especially early, make sure the car is completely warmed up. There are bottles of stuff that claim they can help make a car pass but I am skeptical. Not only must the injectors flow equally and have good patterns, they should all crack open at about the same pressure. I have used Techron and it can clean a fuel system up. It will take using a whole tank of fuel. A clogged fuel filter would make the car run badly and not pass but if it seems to be running OK and no difference after changing the filter, then it won't help. Changing a dirty air filter WILL make a difference. If you do fail again consider doing a full-blown tune-up, spark plugs, wires, cap, rotor, adjust the valves, compression test, etc. All it takes is one cylinder not firing completely to fail.

failed my 4th time this morning.. back to gross polluter this time. everything you mentioned is new.. have not done compression test or valve adjustment..
I guess im buying injectors.

that will end it for me.. if they dont work im registering it non op until i move...

[Helirich]

failed my 4th time this morning.. back to gross polluter this time. everything you mentioned is new.. have not done compression test or valve adjustment..
I guess im buying injectors.

that will end it for me.. if they dont work im registering it non op until i move...

Wow, that?s quite a puzzle. I was going to say, pull your air cleaner right out so it breaths easier. I would research stuff you can dump in the tank that might make it pass. Like David, I?m skeptical, but it?s worth trying.

When you do the test, will they let you adjust anything right then. (Like mixture) I wonder if letting the crankcase vent to atmosphere would help?

[bytes311]

There are several owners in your area who are knowledgeable about their cars. I would recommend reaching out to them. Maybe even have a weekend tech day.

[Bitsyncmaster]

failed my 4th time this morning.. back to gross polluter this time. everything you mentioned is new.. have not done compression test or valve adjustment..
I guess im buying injectors.

that will end it for me.. if they dont work im registering it non op until i move...

If your injectors were all working the same, my guess is that's not your problem. What does it cost you now to get it tested?

[glockworks21]

.

[glockworks21]

with "no ppm " being high possible carbon build up? any issue running seafoam spray through the intake? supposed to spray can while holding rpm up until can is empty..
not sure what it will do on bosch kjet.

I have a can ready waiting for someone to tell me not to do it........


Thanks..

[David T]

with "no ppm " being high possible carbon build up? any issue running seafoam spray through the intake? supposed to spray can while holding rpm up until can is empty..
not sure what it will do on bosch kjet.

I have a can ready waiting for someone to tell me not to do it........


Thanks..

I see no harm in trying Seafoam but I doubt it will make a difference. You are "shooting in the dark" trying this and that. I gave you the advice you need to follow. Because Cali is so tough you have to make sure EVERYTHING is working just so. A Delorean can easily pass but it has to be running right. A leaking vacuum hose, a bad pattern on an injector, a damaged cat, a tight valve, all of that (and anything else) can cause you to fail. Maybe it's time to take it to a shop and let them figure it out. For all of the time and money already spent you could have gone to a shop for less and been done with it.

[Bitsyncmaster]

with "no ppm " being high possible carbon build up? any issue running seafoam spray through the intake? supposed to spray can while holding rpm up until can is empty..
not sure what it will do on bosch kjet.

I have a can ready waiting for someone to tell me not to do it........


Thanks..

I have run fuel additives hoping to fix problems. No harm was done but not typical it fixes anything. I see google searches show everything can increase affect smog testing. But i did see lean mentioned quit often.

[bytes311]

I had similarly high levels of O2, CO, and NO in my exhaust on my first emissions test. My car was also classified as a "gross polluter." I had already done a basic tune-up (replaced the plugs, wires, cap, and rotor), but the problem was still a lean condition caused by a vacuum leak. I didn't know the leak was as significant as it was, but it was coming from the top of the idle speed motor through the seal. I only found out about it after I introduced smoke into the system.

The high NO level could be caused by the lean condition. Make sure that the "pipe of agony" is seated and sealed against the intake. The mixture adjustment hole should also be sealed if it has been drilled/messed with.

[Ron]

WTH???
...We don't have to deal with the tests here, but if I'm reading them right, it looks like everything for high RPM is worse while the low RPM is better than the 8/30 test now (after replacing the cat)...And most of the last results are between the first two at low RPM...And now failing CO...

And why does the 8/30 test show 25 mph @ 1545 RPM" when the others show "25 mph 24XX RPM.
Is it an auto?

Did you change the oil since it overheated? Was it "gassy"?

Does it smoke at all?

[glockworks21]

I see no harm in trying Seafoam but I doubt it will make a difference. You are "shooting in the dark" trying this and that. I gave you the advice you need to follow. Because Cali is so tough you have to make sure EVERYTHING is working just so. A Delorean can easily pass but it has to be running right. A leaking vacuum hose, a bad pattern on an injector, a damaged cat, a tight valve, all of that (and anything else) can cause you to fail. Maybe it's time to take it to a shop and let them figure it out. For all of the time and money already spent you could have gone to a shop for less and been done with it.



I am absolulty taking your advise.. everyones advice.. thank you very all very much. the seafoam directly into the engine while running was my just an option to break up carbon buildup as im told that could be issue also. I Just smoke tested it again and there is only a little leaking around the injectors. which it always did. I dont like the spray pattern on the injectors, some of them seem to have more of a stream mixed in with atomized spray, Im guessing they should just look like a mist.

[glockworks21]

WTH???
...We don't have to deal with the tests here, but if I'm reading them right, it looks like everything for high RPM is worse while the low RPM is better than the 8/30 test now (after replacing the cat)...And most of the last results are between the first two at low RPM...And now failing CO...

And why does the 8/30 test show 25 mph @ 1545 RPM" when the others show "25 mph 24XX RPM.
Is it an auto?

Did you change the oil since it overheated? Was it "gassy"?

Does it smoke at all?

5speed.. they tried the test in different gears., they tried to copy it from 2 years ago when it passed.
I did not change oil when it overheated in garage. I caught it quick. the oil was change less than 500 miles ago. I cant smell any gas on the stick. should I change anyways?

[glockworks21]

I had similarly high levels of O2, CO, and NO in my exhaust on my first emissions test. My car was also classified as a "gross polluter." I had already done a basic tune-up (replaced the plugs, wires, cap, and rotor), but the problem was still a lean condition caused by a vacuum leak. I didn't know the leak was as significant as it was, but it was coming from the top of the idle speed motor through the seal. I only found out about it after I introduced smoke into the system.

The high NO level could be caused by the lean condition. Make sure that the "pipe of agony" is seated and sealed against the intake. The mixture adjustment hole should also be sealed if it has been drilled/messed with.

no vacuum leak except a small amount around injectors which it always did...... Idle speed motor is new and pipe of agony is in solid.

[Ron]

5speed.. they tried the test in different gears., they tried to copy it from 2 years ago when it passed.
I did not change oil when it overheated in garage. I caught it quick. the oil was change less than 500 miles ago. I cant smell any gas on the stick. should I change anyways?

FWIW- If is was an auto, I would of suggested checking its vacuum line for leaks/sucking fluid...

Bad oil can definitely make it fail...if during the 500 miles it was running way rich (or anything like an injector, CSV, etc. had a high chance of polluting it), I would.

======

I'd seal up those injector leaks, whatever it took. A vacuum leak can throw several systems off...

I just don't get it high RPM test worse after a new cat...

I'd disconnect the cat before doing the Seafoam. (If buildup is all that bad, you know where it is going...right into the new cat).

[Helirich]

Is it possible the vacuum is leaking up front at the brake booster?

Just grabbing straws.

[David T]

Is it possible the vacuum is leaking up front at the brake booster?

Just grabbing straws.

Vacuum leaks can be VERY sneaky. On one car I found someone had used way too long a bolt and smashed into the core plug at the front of the right intake runner. On another car the "O" ring for the CSV was missing. Injector seals are very common leaks. For temporary just wrap the seals with Teflon tape. ANY leak bypasses the air sensor and leans the mixture. On one car the springs on the decel valves were overheated and the valves were leaking. Someone has to go over the whole motor from top to bottom and find and fix everything just so to get it to pass. Just not pushing an ignition wire on tight can fail you (or if you pulled on one you broke the core inside). Or maybe the timing is not set correctly. There are just too many things that can affect the emissions for any of us to tell you do this or do that.

[glockworks21]

Vacuum leaks can be VERY sneaky. On one car I found someone had used way too long a bolt and smashed into the core plug at the front of the right intake runner. On another car the "O" ring for the CSV was missing. Injector seals are very common leaks. For temporary just wrap the seals with Teflon tape. ANY leak bypasses the air sensor and leans the mixture. On one car the springs on the decel valves were overheated and the valves were leaking. Someone has to go over the whole motor from top to bottom and find and fix everything just so to get it to pass. Just not pushing an ignition wire on tight can fail you (or if you pulled on one you broke the core inside). Or maybe the timing is not set correctly. There are just too many things that can affect the emissions for any of us to tell you do this or do that.


I completely agree.. Here is the last thing i want opinion on before I take it somewhere....

Does this look right? they are all similar...


https://youtube.com/shorts/XhCe9cXZRqk?si=bdV0YtnrPRLXx1Bj

[Chris 16409]

I saw you got a new catalytic converter from DeLorean Go. I have a feeling it's not up for the strict emissions in California. DeLoreans were able to pass UK emissions without the cat! It also says "high flow" so it won't be as effiecient. It's physically smaller and probably has much less precious metals as compared to an OE cat. I would try to find a nice used original cat. The key is to find one in California that is known to be good. Since most of the country hasn't been concerned with emissions testing, a cat from a non California car is going to be less reliable. Just my two-cents.

[David T]

I completely agree.. Here is the last thing i want opinion on before I take it somewhere....

Does this look right? they are all similar...


https://youtube.com/shorts/XhCe9cXZRqk?si=bdV0YtnrPRLXx1Bj

From what I can tell from the video it looks about right but you really have to get them in a cleaner/tester to tell. Besides, you could have other problems besides injectors. I have also seen that it is usually not one thing that "gets" you, it is a bunch of little things that aren't right. In California something as simple as old gas can do it.

[bytes311]

no vacuum leak except a small amount around injectors which it always did...... Idle speed motor is new and pipe of agony is in solid.

My car was also missing the o-ring under the fuel distributor. Not sure if it makes a huge difference but it is still technically a leak.

[Bitsyncmaster]

I would not think a small vacuum leak would lean the mixture because the lambda O2 sensor would compensate.

[bytes311]

I would not think a small vacuum leak would lean the mixture because the lambda O2 sensor would compensate.

In my case when I had high NOx, the fuel mixture was too lean because it was adjusted to compensate for the unmetered air leaks. Or at least that's how I remembered it.

[Helirich]

I completely agree.. Here is the last thing i want opinion on before I take it somewhere....

Does this look right? they are all similar...


https://youtube.com/shorts/XhCe9cXZRqk?si=bdV0YtnrPRLXx1Bj

Compared to mine, yours sprays with gusto. We?re you just pushing slightly on the plate? Of course, I?ve never had mine checked for smog, so I have no idea what it should look like.

[glockworks21]

so ive changed all the injectors and noticed an immediate improvement even though they didnt have much of a different spray pattern.
I also changed the plugs just because of everything going on... why not
changed the oil as well.

was going to take it down today and try again. wanted to warm it up completely and check dwell again. everything seemed fine.
btw since all this there is not a rich gas smell in exhaust and much more condensation coming out of the pipes on cold start up. goes away after a couple minutes..
but now I have this.....

car is completely warmed up.. turn it off for a couple minutes and restart while its still hot-------------

https://youtube.com/shorts/oWUQr4zWc14?si=hMiLglNO9y9BxRNu

goes away after a minute.... coolant leaking?

[bytes311]

so ive changed all the injectors and noticed an immediate improvement even though they didnt have much of a different spray pattern.
I also changed the plugs just because of everything going on... why not
changed the oil as well.

was going to take it down today and try again. wanted to warm it up completely and check dwell again. everything seemed fine.
btw since all this there is not a rich gas smell in exhaust and much more condensation coming out of the pipes on cold start up. goes away after a couple minutes..
but now I have this.....

car is completely warmed up.. turn it off for a couple minutes and restart while its still hot-------------

https://youtube.com/shorts/oWUQr4zWc14?si=hMiLglNO9y9BxRNu

goes away after a minute.... coolant leaking?

How's your coolant level? Has it taken a noticeable drop since you last checked it?

[glockworks21]

How's your coolant level? Has it taken a noticeable drop since you last checked it?


no drop in level

[WHO1DMC]

How's your coolant level? Has it taken a noticeable drop since you last checked it?

Kinda difficult to tell but it looks white witch is coolant.
Could be the start of a bad head gasket.
You can do a compression test. Best to do it dry and then a wet test when cool.
You can also do a test for exhaust gases in the cooling system. Most autozone places rent the tool but you have to buy the testing fluid it's like 10 bucks or so. There are many YouTube videos on how to do this, it's extremely easy.

If the exhaust is bluish than you have bigger problems.



Dave B.

[glockworks21]

Kinda difficult to tell but it looks white witch is coolant.
Could be the start of a bad head gasket.
You can do a compression test. Best to do it dry and then a wet test when cool.
You can also do a test for exhaust gases in the cooling system. Most autozone places rent the tool but you have to buy the testing fluid it's like 10 bucks or so. There are many YouTube videos on how to do this, it's extremely easy.

If the exhaust is bluish than you have bigger problems.



Dave B.


Its coolant... I took it to someone. I turn it off hot and let it sit for 3-5 minutes. as soon as i start it back up its a nice white cloud that goes away after a few seconds... I cant imagine it will pass smog with coolant burning through. I dont even want to try. Its out of my league now. I will register non op as im out of time and dont want any late fees on top of everything else.. Im officially defeated and done.....

thanks everyone for your help...

[glockworks21]

Its coolant... I took it to someone. I turn it off hot and let it sit for 3-5 minutes. as soon as i start it back up its a nice white cloud that goes away after a few seconds... I cant imagine it will pass smog with coolant burning through. I dont even want to try. Its out of my league now. I will register non op as im out of time and dont want any late fees on top of everything else.. Im officially defeated and done.....

thanks everyone for your help...



i drained some of the oil to do a crackle test... no need... it has the consistancy of soup broth.

[glockworks21]

on waiting list for dmc tx as of about 5 minutes ago... they are 4 months out... will ship and have them go through everything...

[Chris 16409]

You should reach out to Clint Wolf. He can do the repair work. He be cheaper and won?t take a year of waiting. He’s an actual car mechanic and DeLorean owner.

[glockworks21]

You should reach out to Clint Wolf. He can do the repair work. He be cheaper and won?t take a year of waiting. He?s an actual car mechanic and DeLorean owner.

thanks.. rich recommended also.. ive reached out.

[glockworks21]

all dry look about the same...

except the one.... pass side firewall....


Dave...

[glockworks21]

Thanks to Dave S. giving me some time on the phone and Rich for the push I was able to get the head gasket done myself. I got stuck a couple times but all seems well with that repair. Im still keeping my name on waiting list though. All has been working well for the last week or so... Back to smog today.. Failed again. They were slow and let me adjust fuel mix while there and ran it again. it didnt make enough of a difference running lean or rich. NOPPM is 2x what it should be. the factory cat was hollow. The dgo cat made a difference but not near enough. im guessing that my next and last only option before shipping it to delorean in a few months is to try and get a factory cat? the little adjustments are not making any kind of difference.,


new plugs, wires, o2, cat, all vaccum lines, injectors, fuel lines, and im sure 10 other things im forgetting...

[glockworks21]

pic

[David T]

pic

The catalytic convertor can only reduce HO. NOX is because of incomplete combustion. Do a compression test and adjust the valves.

[glockworks21]

The catalytic convertor can only reduce HO. NOX is because of incomplete combustion. Do a compression test and adjust the valves.

thank you dave. I will try and learn how to do this ..

[82DMC12]

thank you dave. I will try and learn how to do this ..

Ha well if you managed to do a head gasket, you can definitely manage a valve adjustment!

[82DMC12]

Testing compression is almost as easy as changing spark plugs.

1. Remove all the spark plugs
2. Disconnect coil wire from coil
3. pull up on the inertia switch plunger so the fuel pump won't run
4. screw in the tester into one of the spark plug holes. It barely has to be snug in the threads, finger tight is good
5. Get in the car and open the throttle, turn the key, let the starter crank 5 or 6 times. Turn off key.
6. Check the tester gauge. Write down the number it says.
7. Relieve the pressure in the gauge using the little spring button and move the gauge to the next cylinder. Repeat for all 6 cylinders, keeping track of which reading was for which cylinder.

Good engine should show over 140 PSI on all six cylinders, and all within maybe 10 PSI of each other.

here are my readings last time I did it.

70128

[glockworks21]

thank you Andy and Dave. I ordered compression tester. should have some answers in next day or two.


I still think it would have been easier to just move....



Dave..

[glockworks21]

would i still need to adjust valves based on this?

[David T]

would i still need to adjust valves based on this?

You should adjust the valves and then do a compression test. Since you already did one now you can compare the before and after. I forgot to also mention you should check the timing and the vacuum and mechanical advance.

[glockworks21]

You should adjust the valves and then do a compression test. Since you already did one now you can compare the before and after. I forgot to also mention you should check the timing and the vacuum and mechanical advance.

I found a smoking gun today...


I will re test on tuesday and update!

[82DMC12]

I found a smoking gun today...


I will re test on tuesday and update!Well what was it ?!?

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

[AugustneverEnds]

Well what was it ?!?

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

Yes, what is it?!?

[Helirich]

?????

[glockworks21]

I may have had a s**t connection on cap to cylinder 5. Maybe not firing right under load? Maybe intermittent? Not 100 percent sure but runs smoother more consistently. I dont want to jinx it but Im hopeful that smog attempt 6 (i think) will pass... the cat may have been a waste although on one test the numbers were lower and the old one was hollow anyways. if there was incomplete combustion like dave T said then this would make sense if that cylinder was not firing. especially under load on the rollers when they test. (ive learned that part from Dave S.. Cant thank you enough)

fingers crossed.. maybe put an end to this thread on tuesday. Will be great for future owners to look at and know what NOT to do based on my mistakes!! :o)

Dave

[glockworks21]

What we have learned not to do.


leaning out or running rich made very minimal differences in smog- not enough to change results unless you are very close to fail with ppm or co possibly? - nothing with nox

The car was miss firing under load and had bad connection on plug- no difference in smog test results at any point.

It IS possible to burn out an original catalytic converter to a point where there is nothing in it. And its possible in less that 2000 miles. From bad tuning maybe? sitting for years without driving? I dont know.. This is what started all of my problems. I went down a rabbit hole and got nowhere. It seemed impossible that my oe cat passed here when i got the car 2 years ago and then 2000 miles later it was burned out hollow.. but that is exactly what happened and that shall remain the mystery.

The dgo cat will not pass ca smog. see attached tests... one is dgo and the other a good used original cat given to me by Mhanch. (i owe you big time and still waiting for your venmo) THE ONLY CHANGE TO CAR BETWEEN TWO ATTACHED TESTS WAS THE CAT

Injectors made no difference. plugs made no difference. valve adjustments made no difference.. Its all catalytic converter! which i will be removing again at the end of the week to preserve it for my next test in two years. I plan to run the dgo cat for now. The oe cat belongs to Mhanch and he did not want money for it. I will gratefully store it here. If anyone in california throws nox numbers like this and needs it I will pay it forward and loan it out for you to pass since we know it works.

I guess the positive out of all this is that the car is pretty well sorted at this point. forget the fact that im over 400 in smog tests and blew a head gasket in the middle of all this..

Now I can send $524 to the DMV to get a 12 cent sticker that says 2024.. the rest will be squandered away..

Thank you all. I hope this helps someone in the future!!!

Dave

[Bitsyncmaster]

What we have learned not to do.


leaning out or running rich made very minimal differences in smog- not enough to change results unless you are very close to fail with ppm or co possibly? - nothing with nox

The car was miss firing under load and had bad connection on plug- no difference in smog test results at any point.

It IS possible to burn out an original catalytic converter to a point where there is nothing in it. And its possible in less that 2000 miles. From bad tuning maybe? sitting for years without driving? I dont know.. This is what started all of my problems. I went down a rabbit hole and got nowhere. It seemed impossible that my oe cat passed here when i got the car 2 years ago and then 2000 miles later it was burned out hollow.. but that is exactly what happened and that shall remain the mystery.

The dgo cat will not pass ca smog. see attached tests... one is dgo and the other a good used original cat given to me by Mhanch. (i owe you big time and still waiting for your venmo) THE ONLY CHANGE TO CAR BETWEEN TWO ATTACHED TESTS WAS THE CAT

Injectors made no difference. plugs made no difference. valve adjustments made no difference.. Its all catalytic converter! which i will be removing again at the end of the week to preserve it for my next test in two years. I plan to run the dgo cat for now. The oe cat belongs to Mhanch and he did not want money for it. I will gratefully store it here. If anyone in california throws nox numbers like this and needs it I will pay it forward and loan it out for you to pass since we know it works.

I guess the positive out of all this is that the car is pretty well sorted at this point. forget the fact that im over 400 in smog tests and blew a head gasket in the middle of all this..

Now I can send $524 to the DMV to get a 12 cent sticker that says 2024.. the rest will be squandered away..

Thank you all. I hope this helps someone in the future!!!

Dave

Glad you got it to pass. I've not heard of a CAT blowing out hollow on it's own. If it did, those chunks are in your muffler.

[r00b]

Is the registration $524!? Here in Colorado, my car's registration was $60 something last time I payed it. Good idea to take it off and save it for the next smog, maybe put on a test pipe until then. It sucks though that you even have to do that.

[Helirich]

Maybe you had a backfire at some point and it blew the cat insides out. That cat material is kind of like a China plate. Once it starts cracking up, it might not take long to disintegrate. Maybe one cylinder was not firing at all and the fuel was all burning in the cat. (It is suppose to get hot, but there?s limits)

In any case, good that you got the nazi?s off your tail.

[mhanch]

What we have learned not to do.


leaning out or running rich made very minimal differences in smog- not enough to change results unless you are very close to fail with ppm or co possibly? - nothing with nox

The car was miss firing under load and had bad connection on plug- no difference in smog test results at any point.

It IS possible to burn out an original catalytic converter to a point where there is nothing in it. And its possible in less that 2000 miles. From bad tuning maybe? sitting for years without driving? I dont know.. This is what started all of my problems. I went down a rabbit hole and got nowhere. It seemed impossible that my oe cat passed here when i got the car 2 years ago and then 2000 miles later it was burned out hollow.. but that is exactly what happened and that shall remain the mystery.

The dgo cat will not pass ca smog. see attached tests... one is dgo and the other a good used original cat given to me by Mhanch. (i owe you big time and still waiting for your venmo) THE ONLY CHANGE TO CAR BETWEEN TWO ATTACHED TESTS WAS THE CAT

Injectors made no difference. plugs made no difference. valve adjustments made no difference.. Its all catalytic converter! which i will be removing again at the end of the week to preserve it for my next test in two years. I plan to run the dgo cat for now. The oe cat belongs to Mhanch and he did not want money for it. I will gratefully store it here. If anyone in california throws nox numbers like this and needs it I will pay it forward and loan it out for you to pass since we know it works.

I guess the positive out of all this is that the car is pretty well sorted at this point. forget the fact that im over 400 in smog tests and blew a head gasket in the middle of all this..

Now I can send $524 to the DMV to get a 12 cent sticker that says 2024.. the rest will be squandered away..

Thank you all. I hope this helps someone in the future!!!

Dave


So glad it worked! a true Festivus Miracle! - Now, the Feats of Strength...

[Rich]

Is the registration $524!? .....

The owner didn't say exactly that.
"Now I can send $524 to the DMV to get a 12 cent sticker that says 2024"
The reported fee to get the sticker prob included some one-time charges since it went non-op?

The CA registration fee for our '81 D (without a vanity license plate fee and not Hist. Vehicle) is currently $172 per yr.

[glockworks21]

The owner didn't say exactly that.
"Now I can send $524 to the DMV to get a 12 cent sticker that says 2024"
The reported fee to get the sticker prob included some one-time charges since it went non-op?

The CA registration fee for our '81 D (without a vanity license plate fee and not Hist. Vehicle) is currently $172 per yr.



They base registration on county, price paid on vehicle, length of ownership ect ect. Nice that yours is that low.

Mine was $386 for registration - that is with custom plate ($50 I think)
The rest was late fees.. I never non oped it mainly because I dont know or want to deal with the process to get it off of non op.
I was happy to pay the late fees to get this behind me. at least for the next 2 years..

Sorry for the negative cali talk. Its just seems to be a money grab ( the smog testing i mean) There was talk of raising the vehicle smog year up to mid 90s but the bill didnt pass. I really want the stage one setup and would have got it right away when all this started. Danny at DMC said it passes emissions but will fail visual because for whatever reason the state wont approve it They are working on a california stage one that passes visual with correct stamping... Seems they dont really care if a stage one passes or maybe even runs cleaner(idk) but since they didnt approve it you dont get it. Thats where the negativity comes from :o)

Thanks again for all the support.

[DMCMW Dave]

If it did, those chunks are in your muffler.

Good catch - when you take it apart again, shake the muffler. If there are converter parts inside it will be pretty obvious. I've seen them break up inside and the chunks are pretty significant.

[mhanch]

I'm really lucky. Washington has a Vintage Plate with no renewal or emissions. Makes life easy.

[Helirich]

Sorry for the negative cali talk.

How are facts negative? Well I guess they can be interrupted to be negative by critical thinking people.

[Rich]

Congratulations on sticking it out until you got a well-sorted powertrain - and a CA smog certificate. Along with a bonus head gasket job.

Thanks for the end-of-project debrief you shared. That's the kind of thing this forum's made for.

I hope you don't mind me editing your post down to the following list of your 8 findings, all useful.



What we have learned...

(A) leaning out or running rich made very minimal differences in smog- not enough to change results unless you are very close to fail with ppm or co possibly? - nothing with nox

(B) The car was miss firing under load and had bad connection on plug- no difference in smog test results at any point.

(C) It IS possible to burn out an original catalytic converter to a point where there is nothing in it. And its possible in less that 2000 miles.

(D) The dgo cat will not pass ca smog.

(E) see attached tests... one is dgo and the other a good used original cat given to me by Mhanch. (i owe you big time and still waiting for your venmo) THE ONLY CHANGE TO CAR BETWEEN TWO ATTACHED TESTS WAS THE CAT

(F) Injectors made no difference.

(G) plugs made no difference.

(H) valve adjustments made no difference.. Its all catalytic converter!

I guess the positive out of all this is that the car is pretty well sorted at this point.

Thank you all. I hope this helps someone in the future!!!

Dave

[glockworks21]

Thank you Rich!!
^^^

[Helirich]

Thank you Rich!!
^^^

Yea, it would be good if the admin could post Rich?s list at the beginning of this thread for future searchers. Something like ?if you don?t want to read the whole thing, here are the cliffs?

[gluaisrothaii]

They base registration on county, price paid on vehicle, length of ownership ect ect. Nice that yours is that low.

Mine was $386 for registration - that is with custom plate ($50 I think)
The rest was late fees.. I never non oped it mainly because I dont know or want to deal with the process to get it off of non op.
I was happy to pay the late fees to get this behind me. at least for the next 2 years..

Sorry for the negative cali talk. Its just seems to be a money grab ( the smog testing i mean) There was talk of raising the vehicle smog year up to mid 90s but the bill didnt pass. I really want the stage one setup and would have got it right away when all this started. Danny at DMC said it passes emissions but will fail visual because for whatever reason the state wont approve it They are working on a california stage one that passes visual with correct stamping... Seems they dont really care if a stage one passes or maybe even runs cleaner(idk) but since they didnt approve it you dont get it. Thats where the negativity comes from :o)

Thanks again for all the support.

I have the DMCH stage 1 and have passed Alameda County smog three times in a row for emissions and the visual inspection. The smog tech is detail oriented and reads the EO end to end every time before he signs it off. Danny is incorrect here. Photo attached for reference.70267

[glockworks21]

I was going through paperwork that came with the car. tons of receipts, magazines, ect. and I ran across this one....
dated 2010---35,363 miles..

I had to share the third catagory on this receipt

"found exhaust manifolds leaking. Removed exhaust system and replaced exhaust manifold gaskets and hardware.
CLEANED OUT catalytic converter due to cat falling apart...."

So this was 11 years before I got the car. (also only 1500 miles put on in that time) and according to this the cat was hollowed out.. So if this receipt is accurate then i did not burn out the cat in a short amount of time. And that begs the question as to how did the car pass when i got it here
Im not looking for answers.. Just thought it would be fun to share and add to the mystery....

[Rich]

Thanks for clearing up that background.

I'll point to a possible answer anyway. It looks like the shop that smogged your car 2yrs ago after you brought it into Calif. cheated to get it to pass.

That was the theory in Posts 32-33 of this thread. If I understand the reports your car (with what we now know was an empty cat) "passed" the test and got certified a little over 2yrs ago.

There are a few ways for a smog shop to arrange for that to happen, all of them illegal. And then the same shop couldn't get the same car, still with an empty cat, to pass smog late last year? No surprise if the shop ran a legit test in '24.

The Calif. Bureau of Automotive Repair has an active enforcement program in place to curb smog test cheating. Over a recent 6 year period they shut down about 200 smog shops per year for smog test fraud. Up to you but if you want the BAR to look into how the non-compliant car somehow "passed" CA smog 2 yrs ago you can report your story to them (https://bar.ca.gov/complaint). Looks like the shop caused you a lot of grief.



I was going through paperwork that came with the car. tons of receipts, magazines, ect. and I ran across this one.... dated 2010---35,363 miles.. I had to share the third catagory on this receipt "found exhaust manifolds leaking. Removed exhaust system and replaced exhaust manifold gaskets and hardware. CLEANED OUT catalytic converter due to cat falling apart...." So this was 11 years before I got the car. (also only 1500 miles put on in that time) and according to this the cat was hollowed out.. So if this receipt is accurate then i did not burn out the cat in a short amount of time. And that begs the question as to how did the car pass when i got it here Im not looking for answers.. Just thought it would be fun to share and add to the mystery....

[Bitsyncmaster]

As I suspected, the CAT would not blow out on it's own.

[AugustneverEnds]

This confirms the only way to for CAT equipped car to pass California emissions without a CAT is by cheating. I'm sorry this was such a frustrating, expensive, and time consuming process for you.