Discontent With DMCH discussion ***Split from EV thread***

[stevedmc]

It always amazes me how much truth people are willing to say about DMCH privately.

Publicly, people don't critisize DMCH much because they are afraid of being blacklisted.

[Dracula]

For anyone who's willing to say more about DMCH privately, feel free to PM me. I'm not afraid to speak up and any information I may learn I will keep anonymous.

[Delorean Industries]

It always amazes me how much truth people are willing to say about DMCH privately.

Publicly, people don't critisize DMCH much because they are afraid of being blacklisted.

I wish there was a like button on here for this post. I've been happily blacklisted since May for speaking my mind and being an open ass among other things towards DMC. Funny part is I spend more money with DMC now through other channels then I ever did before building up a massive parts inventory.

Point being you can never be black listed. It is so easy to get Delorean parts even if you are. Personally my company will always sell to everyone regardless of what they have to say as long as the invoice is current. Constructive critics are great for product development. The ones on here that make stupid comments due to ignorance are not taken seriously anyways.

[stevedmc]

Personally my company will always sell to everyone regardless of what they have to say as long as the invoice is current.

I like carbs.

[DMCVegas]

Publicly, people don't critisize DMCH much because they are afraid of being blacklisted.

I think allot of that stems from Ed Bernstein from DeLorean One and how he monitored the DML and would ban anyone from buying parts from him if they commented in any way that offended him. Not just anything negative towards D-1 or himself mind you. People who would simply recommend buying parts from other vendors without even mentioning him were banned. Of course the DOA itself I found to be full of curmudgeons who seemed to be upset that the Internet as a whole had usurped their control of information and significance in the DeLorean community, but that's a whole other story for another thread.

[tjd]

It's too bad they blacklisted you for speaking your mind Josh.

Being blacklisted would not effect me largely, as I don't do a lot of business with them to begin with. This goes back to negative experiances I've had on the phone back in the DeLorean One days when I had my 1st DeLorean, and even more recently with my current car I've been talked down to also when I called in for tech help a couple years back, and most recently and most outrageously have been personaly attacked on here by James Espey for my criticism of their "new build" term for their car restorations.

I would stop speaking out if they discontinued marketing restorations and now electric conversions as something that could be misinterpreted as being "New" cars.

I'd also like to see DMCH bring their new products being offered more in line with our needs their largest customers and their largest customer base "current" DeLorean owners instead of prioritizing projects aimed more at luring "new build" and EV customers.

[Delorean Industries]

I had it coming for more then one reason. I prepared for it extensively studying Dmc and figuring out where they bought and sourced parts from for almost two years prior. Took alot longer to happen then I epected. Now minus suspension spring kits I buy directly from the manfactures in most cases or have it made myself.

But... some hard parts still come from dmc weekly.


It's too bad they blacklisted you for speaking your mind Josh.

Being blacklisted would not effect me largely, as I don't do a lot of business with them to begin with. This goes back to negative experiances I've had on the phone back in the DeLorean One days when I had my 1st DeLorean, and even more recently with my current car I've been talked down to also when I called in for tech help a couple years back, and most recently and most outrageously have been personaly attacked on here by James Espey for my criticism of their "new build" term for their car restorations.

I would stop speaking out if they discontinued marketing restorations and now electric conversions as something that could be misinterpreted as being "New" cars.

I'd also like to see DMCH bring their new products being offered more in line with our needs their largest customers and their largest customer base "current" DeLorean owners instead of prioritizing projects aimed more at luring "new build" and EV customers.

[tjd]

I see DMCH Cameron in the online users list and every time I've seen him here he is reading this thread. Hopefully DMCH can pull some constructive criticism from this instead of more of the same public personal attacks or more blacklisting.

There are "car" people like Chad and myself that grew up loving the DeLorean more so then muscle cars or some other car in general. I'm sure more will turn up owning DeLoreans from this crowd and I'm afraid you are going to run in to more ressistance to your advertising and marketing decisions from "car" people that have a real passion for the marquee then people that are into DeLoreans for other reasons (such as movies) that aren't necesarily "car" people.

I have several "car friends" that are into Corvettes and Ferraris and other stuff that find you guys trying to push "new" DeLoreans as despicable.

[DMCVegas]

You know what's funny? I remember back in 2005 I went to the DMCH Open House event. I remember on the tour James Espy had made a comment about the replacement rates of parts and what they were supposed to do with them. And he made a statement about how "their time will come". Of course since DMC's collapse in 1982 there had been ever persistent rumors that new cars would one day be built. Once new construction was underway I remember making a comment online about "If DMCH starts making new cars, how will we start differentiating between what's an Original Build from Dunmurry and what's a Houston build? Let alone how long will it take before we start arguing which one is better?"

Technology vs. Loyalty. Self-fulfilling prophecies...



More like "is that one of them "new" electric DeLoreans their building in Texas!?"

Long before Houston was even talking about the new builds, I'd be fielding questions from idiots at gas stations if I was driving an Electric Car. While filling my gas tank no less. This doesn't even phase me.




My point exactly, I'll add to that a ever aging (30+ years) stockpile of parts that they routinely put in (80% of their build) what people and the media have been lead to believe to be New cars.

Now that right there is an excellent point! But in my usual fashion something that I see from an entirely different angle.

The New Build cars are titled and tagged as '82's, or '83's I beleive. They're using up the existing supply of VIN Tags right now. Now they could (or at least before Ferarri ruined it for everybody) apply for DOT exemptions on Safety Testing. Not that the DMC-12 really needs it since according to a woman I spoke to @ George Washington University that acts as a repository for DOT Crash Test Data said that after going over the info on the DMC-12 the occupants were pretty well protected and that the crash looked worse than it really was, but it they could have easily obtained it. EPA rules are a bit different however, but since right now the DMC-12 platform is using the same engine, it shouldn't be affected by those rules. But since there is no major deviation from the platform itself, there shouldn't have been much, if any tested at all needed since it was all previously certified...

Anyhow, the reason that I bring this up is because a few years ago I remember how the State of California was getting pissed with Boyd Coddington and his cars. They were using the titles of the donor cars for the new customs. So the DMV was basing the tax off of the depreciation of a 40+ year old car assuming that it was the same vehicle. Of course the cars would be worth several times more thanks to custom work, crate engines, etc. California was supposed to be introducing some sort of legislation to ensure that custom vehicles such as these would be taxed differently or some how be penalized or something. If the buyer of a New Build DMC-12 registered it in California as a depreciated 30 year old car, DMCH might catch some flack for that. So I wonder what they've been doing to protect themselves? Are they issuing 1983 Titles allowing for the depreciation, or are they forcing California Residents to use this form? (http://www.dmv.ca.gov/forms/reg/reg5036.pdf) If not, they may be in for some legal trouble.



I really don't care for the publicity, it just creates more confussion and misinformation in the general public about a car that already has a great deal of misinformation about it out already...

Again it is something that doesn't phase me too much since dealing with idiots and their stupidity is sadly part of the DeLorean experience itself. Like speeding tickets I consider it the price of paying to play, or rather being the most awesome car on the road. Trying to counter it on your own is a sisyphean task that will never be done. But at least with the injection of the DeLorean into modern pop culture it's drifting away from those negative, archaic ones from the past. I can deal with the modern stuff much more easily. And if you want to really have rage, focus it on the DEA for starting all of this shit almost 30 years ago and causing all of these problems for us.



The binnacle debacle is an illustration of why this company in Texas should be ashamed to use the same company name as our cars original manufacturer.

I gotta kinda disagree on that one. Licensing a name is nothing new, especially in the electronics world. Philips products for example: Philips doesn't make them. They simply license their name out to other people. And if you start looking around Wal Mart, K-Mart, Sears, Best Buy, and other places, you'll start noticing the same TVs over, and over again. Except the only difference is that they're literally "Badge Engineered" with different logs silk screened on the fronts.

As for DMCH, them using the "DeLorean Motor Company" name honestly doesn't affect me one way or the other. I suppose if someone was really upset about it, then you'd have to blame John De Lorean himself for letting them use it.

But here is something to think about: If JZD has somehow gotten his new company off the ground he'd be in the same situation and would be facing the same criticism. So the bigger question is, "What does it matter?"



I think you have that flipped, us thank the vendors for them existing? they exist because of us, They should be thanking us for being their customers. As without us they could not exist. Not vice-versa.

<SNIP>


Actually I envy the Bricklin community, they have parts vendors, not one of them has named themselves in order to mislead the general public into believing they are the original manufacturer, and no one is claiming to be building new cars.

Well first off I don't envy the Bricklin Community at all. Their asses are all stuck driving Bricklins. Not my cup-o-tea when it comes to a comfortable automobile...

But anyways there is a significant amount of truth to the comments about the symbiotic relationship between Vendors and DeLorean Owners. Believe it or not, the DeLorean is not that difficult of a car to find parts for at all. It was said that when it came to the design of the DMC-12 one of the key aspects of the car that JDZ wanted was to keep the tactile aspects of the car as unique to the DMC-12 as possible. However when it came to the hidden mechanical bits he wanted as much as possible to be off-the-shelf components to keep parts costs down as well as to ensure easy repairability. Now before our modern day DeLorean vendors there were indeed some dark times when it came to owning a DeLorean. Really now, up until DMCH bought the KAPAC supply, parts supplies were dwindling, and lots of bits were actually exhausted until they were either re-manufactured or outright discovered during the set up of the new Houston location. The Mode Switch Diaphragm immediately comes to mind. Once these parts became available, they wound up being priced competitively in relation to major parts vendors. At the time however to make up for missing pieces and the like, there were other solutions that were implemented. Things like the 45° Elbow for the Oil Pressure Sending Unit to get FRAM filters, and the billet water pump pulley. Both parts allowed DeLoreans to borrow directly from the Volvo 760 GLE's parts bin. And there were other items too. Before we bought new Door Lock kits we learned how to solder Chrysler Relays into the Module and rewound our solenoids, etc. The biggest thing of course was the DeLorean Parts Database. Compiled by Knut Grimsrud among others it's a neat little Application that lets you browse through the DeLorean Parts Catalogue. The difference being though that once you click on a part number, a column appears that lets you know the Cross-Reference number and what other car it comes from so that you can get it.

Presently I don't believe it's available any longer from the DMCNews website, and hasn't been for quite some time.

But if someone wants a copy, PM me. I prefer buying parts from DeLorean vendors myself since A: They're Cheaper, and B: I don't deal with the general asshollery with them that I would searching through brake catalogs at AutoZone.



If you too were enduring personal attacks from a particular vendor you'd probably be a little touchy too.

As someone whose been chased off property by a vendor, I can easily understand your position. Speaking of Ed and Mille, are they even alive any longer?

[Bruce Johnson]

I think you have that flipped, us thank the vendors for them existing? they exist because of us, They should be thanking us for being their customers. As without us they could not exist. Not vice-versa.


Look, you obviously still don't get it. It's give and take. Where would this community be without all of the vendors. Sure they need us, and we them. Oil companies need us, we need them. Wall Street needs us, we need them. It goes on and on and on. Open your eyes, it's just the way it works. Or do you have a better solution? If so I'd like to hear it. And why do some of you intimate that "blacklisting" is a badge of honor. Some honor. You have a grievance with a vendor? Work it out..it's called using a telephone.

Bruce
1420

[tjd]

Look, you obviously still don't get it. It's give and take. Where would this community be without all of the vendors. Sure they need us, and we them. Oil companies need us, we need them. Wall Street needs us, we need them. It goes on and on and on. Open your eyes, it's just the way it works. Or do you have a better solution? If so I'd like to hear it. And why do some of you intimate that "blacklisting" is a badge of honor. Some honor. You have a grievance with a vendor? Work it out..it's called using a telephone.

Bruce
1420

Maybe it's a Midwest thing as compared to a California thing.

The vendors could not exist unless they had customers, again they should be thankfull for us their customers not vice-versa. One vendor in particular that holds a monopoly on NOS parts has the attitude that you are supporting them one way or the other no matter who you choose to buy from, and cares very little about anyones grievances.

I therefore whenever possible buy from someone else, they still get my money indirectly but it does reduce their profit margin.

[Dracula]

This thread should really be titled "Discontent With DMCH" instead and, perhaps, moved to the vendors section. After all, we are reviewing and discussing a vendor's business practices.

[tjd]

This thread should really be titled "Discontent With DMCH" instead and, perhaps, moved to the vendors section. After all, we are reviewing and discussing a vendor's business practices.

+1

Also is anyone else that has voiced displeasure with DMCH today all of a sudden getting their primary inbox that you do business with DMCH getting bombarded with credit repair and mortgage assistance emails? If so please send me a PM.

[sean]

This thread should really be titled "Discontent With DMCH" instead and, perhaps, moved to the vendors section. After all, we are reviewing and discussing a vendor's business practices.

Poof!

[Dracula]

Poof!

Thank you. I feel that this thread will be periodically recalled to life as time goes on. We're also attempting to have a legitimate discussion about our growing concern that DMCH is alienating its core customer base by ignoring our repeated outcries in favor of their publicity-generating side-projects and the ramifications it will have on the costs of DeLorean repair and ownership.

[DMCVegas]

Thank you. I feel that this thread will be periodically recalled to life as time goes on. We're also attempting to have a legitimate discussion about our growing concern that DMCH is alienating its core customer base by ignoring our repeated outcries in favor of their publicity-generating side-projects and the ramifications it will have on the costs of DeLorean repair and ownership.

Hmm... In what way do you feel that DMCH has alienated the DeLorean community? Parts are still available. And even when some are slow-going, they do come around.

I don't really care about DMCH's licensing agreements. If it makes them money to persue other projects that benefit us like parts remanufacturing I'm all for it. Hell if it just puts money in their pockets, I'm fine with that too. I remember the days of buying Headlight Switches in advance and hoping that enough people sign up so that I can get my replacement part. So I don't mind any of this.

Also along those lines of licensing and merchandising are tastes versus audiences. I also remember the days of DMCH releasing new collectable products directed solely at the DeLorean community where you'd end up with no guarantee that people would buy anything to break-even let alone turn a profit. Admittedly I myself gave DMCH tons of shit when they started releasing private-label wine:

http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/4/426/1629/38563314374_large.jpg

In that case I did feel alienated a bit since it seemed like something more directed towards the older, stogy crowd of elitist DeLorean owners rather than the more common ones that we see now. In other words, DOA people whom I don't like. But then again, that's the thing isn't it? You can release a product, but that doesn't mean that everyone is going to like it. And with a small community like ours, the risk/reward factor runs on some seriously tight margins.

Of course when you start offering a product to a wider spectrum of consumers, then you have a greater chance to make more money, so I understand it. But the thing is, I understand that NOW. Back then I only thought in small terms about the community itself directly. We can't do that because that's not what keeps a marque alive. Just as I've always said, BTTF may not have inspired people to buy a DeLorean so much as it made people aware of it. Once they discover the car, that's when they decided to own one based upon it's own merits. Most young people now, inspite of Ted Turner's best efforts, don't know what "Back to the Future" is, let alone about cars that are older than them. But after we pass, they'll need to take the custodianship of the marque and the cars. How else are we supposed to spread awareness in order to reach out to them?

The biggest question though is I suppose what's wrong with DMCH making money? They're a for-profit company. They want to make money, hell, we all do. How does any of this hurt us? If we're talking about image by being associated with some of the people whom they've licensed products to, I don't think we've got anything to worry about. Anything that raises awareness of the car itself and turns public opinion positive, let alone helps could the memories and stigmas of the past is a good thing. Plus I doubt people are going to look at us and associate anything negative with these other promotions, especially when the public at large doesn't have any negative opinion of us or them at all.

As for the building of new cars dwindling the parts supply or causing prices to go up, I'm gonna straight call bullshit on that. Why? Left Front Fenders, that's why. Let my explain with a story that has been told to me over the years by different people...

When DMCL was liquidated, Sol Shenk from Consolidated International/KAPAC bought the most inventory of anyone from the factory. At the time however, there was still a good amount more parts there. When his buyers wrapped up, the liquidation company was trying to convince KAPAC to buy more of the parts so they could get more money. They said they were fine with what they had and went on their merry way. When the crates got back to Columbus, Ohio, they opened them up. When they bought, they purchased equal sets of everything. So you can imagine the shock when then opened up a crate for Left Front Fenders and found that it was mislabeled and contained only Right Front Fenders. Well they decided to go back to Dunmurry and not just ask for the order to be corrected, but decided to go ahead and buy up ALL the rest of the parts. And if you think they were shocked when they found the crate was mislabled, they were horrified to find pastures gleaming silver with stainless steel. Turns out the Brits for whatever reason had decided to ensure the remaining body panels would be scrapped, and ensured it by running over all of the parts with whatever vehicles they had and destroying them.

Now, since that time Left Front Fenders have been coveted more than gold by DeLorean owners. This has led to their price skyrocketing. Now it's not due at all to the rarity, because because demand for them is almost non-existent. While DMC was in business they had initially decided to scrap dented fenders and just replace them. That is until a QAC tech in Santa Ana who would eventually parter with another tech to open DMCGG (now DMCCA) was able to repair the stainless to like new and drive down costs. Now that last part doesn't really get passed around as much as the panicking story about the missing LF Fenders. And of course the truth simply put is that most fender damage is easily repaired and doesn't require replacement. The Service Centers are more than capable of such services and have been for many years. But that lingering panic stays on. Even if we did run out of panels, simple dies can still be fabricated to stamp out new ones. After all, this is exactly how the panels for Proto-1 were originally created. But still, even after we've seen the parts supplies swell in the past decade and now have more parts available to us than even dealerships had when DMC itself was in business in 1982, people still panic for no reason.

But thinking of that story it makes me wonder... Outside of maintenance items, sticking to the unique one-of-a-kind DeLorean parts, how often do we REALLY order them? How many Bonnets, Louvers, Wheel Hubs, chassis, wiring harnesses, or anything else like that have any of us ordered lately, if damn-near ever? And do we really believe that New Build cars are suddenly going to create such a rush that depletes our parts? Hell, does anyone think that if DMCH suddenly took orders and had to even begin mass-producing cars that they wouldn't reinvest any of the profits made to make MORE parts that are interchangeable with our cars and the new ones? That they'd just keep going until the supplies are exhausted? Is everyone also really afraid that DMCH is going to switch to new design components and will suddenly force us to convert over? And even if they did, that other sources won't have those parts available?

Just some thoughts I had on this.

[Dracula]

I'd say that they're alienating loyal customers by, to use the best examples, not providing us with binnacles when they can recreate the underbodies and the general consensus that the new dashboards are CRAP! Another one of their products that I had fail on me was their replacement AC belt with the DMC logo.. The thing shredded itself to pieces in less than 3,000 miles and left bits of burnt belt throughout my engine compartment. It would also speak volumes if they were to periodically ask the community what parts we'd like to see reproduced or improved. I know the clamor for cup holders hasn't ever fully gone away and I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think that there's a flawless starter solution, either.

My reasoning for the cost of parts increasing wasn't the dwindling supply. If anything, that would mean that more cars would be parted out and people would sell their cars in greater numbers because they can fetch more money. My concern is that Houston will raise their prices to offset the costs of their projects. We all know that as supplies drop, prices increase. That's supply and demand. The difference here is that they control the supply. They're bound to periodically increase prices to match inflation, as all businesses do. Though, with so few people actually avidly looking out for cross-over parts because of their extensive supply, they can raise prices on parts all-around; everything from common bolts to fenders. It would be fairly easy to make a minimal sweeping change to their overall prices to offset any money they lose with this electric car nonsense or their other various ideas; underbody costs, their wheel replacement project, etc. What happens, then, when they make the money back in parts sales? Do they decrease the prices or have a sale? MAYBE, but then it'd be short-lived and the prices wouldn't go back down. It's not a heightened scarcity of parts that I'm afraid of, it's the rising cost of ownership of these cars. If a car is reasonably-priced, I feel that it attracts a better crowd of owners. A group who's more willing to experiment with their cars and try new ideas, if you will. As the costs of parts rise, people pay more to restore a car and will only sell it for more. This is part of the way that the value rises on a classic car. The problem is that it also causes the operating costs to rise in the event minor changes are needed. DeLoreans already seem to wind up parked for long periods of time, and that will only get worse with an increase in maintenance costs. Most classic cars these days are seen going to and from car shows; which is a form of torture for the DeLorean owner, so its further eliminating the number of cars driven in the long run and the potential for interest from people actually seeing the cars.

[tjd]

Hmm... In what way do you feel that DMCH has alienated the DeLorean community? Parts are still available. And even when some are slow-going, they do come around.

I don't really care about DMCH's licensing agreements. If it makes them money to persue other projects that benefit us like parts remanufacturing I'm all for it. Hell if it just puts money in their pockets, I'm fine with that too. I remember the days of buying Headlight Switches in advance and hoping that enough people sign up so that I can get my replacement part. So I don't mind any of this.

Also along those lines of licensing and merchandising are tastes versus audiences. I also remember the days of DMCH releasing new collectable products directed solely at the DeLorean community where you'd end up with no guarantee that people would buy anything to break-even let alone turn a profit. Admittedly I myself gave DMCH tons of shit when they started releasing private-label wine:

http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/4/426/1629/38563314374_large.jpg

In that case I did feel alienated a bit since it seemed like something more directed towards the older, stogy crowd of elitist DeLorean owners rather than the more common ones that we see now. In other words, DOA people whom I don't like. But then again, that's the thing isn't it? You can release a product, but that doesn't mean that everyone is going to like it. And with a small community like ours, the risk/reward factor runs on some seriously tight margins.

Of course when you start offering a product to a wider spectrum of consumers, then you have a greater chance to make more money, so I understand it. But the thing is, I understand that NOW. Back then I only thought in small terms about the community itself directly. We can't do that because that's not what keeps a marque alive. Just as I've always said, BTTF may not have inspired people to buy a DeLorean so much as it made people aware of it. Once they discover the car, that's when they decided to own one based upon it's own merits. Most young people now, inspite of Ted Turner's best efforts, don't know what "Back to the Future" is, let alone about cars that are older than them. But after we pass, they'll need to take the custodianship of the marque and the cars. How else are we supposed to spread awareness in order to reach out to them?

The biggest question though is I suppose what's wrong with DMCH making money? They're a for-profit company. They want to make money, hell, we all do. How does any of this hurt us? If we're talking about image by being associated with some of the people whom they've licensed products to, I don't think we've got anything to worry about. Anything that raises awareness of the car itself and turns public opinion positive, let alone helps could the memories and stigmas of the past is a good thing. Plus I doubt people are going to look at us and associate anything negative with these other promotions, especially when the public at large doesn't have any negative opinion of us or them at all.

As for the building of new cars dwindling the parts supply or causing prices to go up, I'm gonna straight call bullshit on that. Why? Left Front Fenders, that's why. Let my explain with a story that has been told to me over the years by different people...

When DMCL was liquidated, Sol Shenk from Consolidated International/KAPAC bought the most inventory of anyone from the factory. At the time however, there was still a good amount more parts there. When his buyers wrapped up, the liquidation company was trying to convince KAPAC to buy more of the parts so they could get more money. They said they were fine with what they had and went on their merry way. When the crates got back to Columbus, Ohio, they opened them up. When they bought, they purchased equal sets of everything. So you can imagine the shock when then opened up a crate for Left Front Fenders and found that it was mislabeled and contained only Right Front Fenders. Well they decided to go back to Dunmurry and not just ask for the order to be corrected, but decided to go ahead and buy up ALL the rest of the parts. And if you think they were shocked when they found the crate was mislabled, they were horrified to find pastures gleaming silver with stainless steel. Turns out the Brits for whatever reason had decided to ensure the remaining body panels would be scrapped, and ensured it by running over all of the parts with whatever vehicles they had and destroying them.

Now, since that time Left Front Fenders have been coveted more than gold by DeLorean owners. This has led to their price skyrocketing. Now it's not due at all to the rarity, because because demand for them is almost non-existent. While DMC was in business they had initially decided to scrap dented fenders and just replace them. That is until a QAC tech in Santa Ana who would eventually parter with another tech to open DMCGG (now DMCCA) was able to repair the stainless to like new and drive down costs. Now that last part doesn't really get passed around as much as the panicking story about the missing LF Fenders. And of course the truth simply put is that most fender damage is easily repaired and doesn't require replacement. The Service Centers are more than capable of such services and have been for many years. But that lingering panic stays on. Even if we did run out of panels, simple dies can still be fabricated to stamp out new ones. After all, this is exactly how the panels for Proto-1 were originally created. But still, even after we've seen the parts supplies swell in the past decade and now have more parts available to us than even dealerships had when DMC itself was in business in 1982, people still panic for no reason.

But thinking of that story it makes me wonder... Outside of maintenance items, sticking to the unique one-of-a-kind DeLorean parts, how often do we REALLY order them? How many Bonnets, Louvers, Wheel Hubs, chassis, wiring harnesses, or anything else like that have any of us ordered lately, if damn-near ever? And do we really believe that New Build cars are suddenly going to create such a rush that depletes our parts? Hell, does anyone think that if DMCH suddenly took orders and had to even begin mass-producing cars that they wouldn't reinvest any of the profits made to make MORE parts that are interchangeable with our cars and the new ones? That they'd just keep going until the supplies are exhausted? Is everyone also really afraid that DMCH is going to switch to new design components and will suddenly force us to convert over? And even if they did, that other sources won't have those parts available?

Just some thoughts I had on this.

Good post, the problem I have with them remanufacturing the cars isn't from an exhausting the supply stand point. It has to do more with DMC's misleading sales term "New-Build" which leads to all the confusion about DMC building new cars which is simply untrue. I get tired of people asking me if "my DeLorean is one of those "new" DeLoreans they are building in Texas?" or asking me "if I knew they are building "new" DeLoreans in Texas!?" or when I over hear people telling their companions "They are building those "new" in Texas for $_______!?"

I understand that peoples misunderstanding and ignorance of the car comes with the territory with the ownership of these cars. But what I find unacceptable is this company that has named itself after the orignal company in my opinion in an effort to decieve and mislead by name alone, and then names their restoration program a term that is also IMO designed to mislead and cause misunderstandings about the product they are selling and ofcourse all their created misunderstandings always works in their favor. Convienent!

[Ron]

I get tired of people asking me if "my DeLorean is one of those "new" DeLoreans they are building in Texas?" or asking me "if I knew they are building "new" DeLoreans in Texas!?" or when I over hear people telling their companions "They are building those "new" in Texas for $_______!?"
I'm with you 100% on being misleading, but you'd be getting the above either way...

[DMCVegas]

Wow. I can certainly see your point on allot of things.

The pontoons are a simple given. They've got the molds and the drilling jigs. Who knows how much time they actually spent on that project since the majority of work was already done. Why does it take so long to get some of these parts out? I dunno. I suppose that originality does figure into a huge part of it when you're working on pieces that people absolutely demand to be 100% identical to an original part to the point where you cannot tell them apart. But who knows what the reason is. As for the dashboards, I didn't know that the new ones had problems. As someone in need of a new one, I'd really love to find out more about this to potentially avoid any problems of my own.

That sucks about the alternator belt too. I've had ones shred on me before as well, but in those cases it was a problem with my car. Specificly some moron bent the fan blades on the Alternator out. They naturally flex, but on my car at around 4,800 RPMs they'd go out far enough to chew into the belt.

Most important of all, what did DMCH say when you contacted them about the problems you had?

I'm in total agreement that the price of DeLorean ownership from the car itself as well as the parts needs to be kept reasonable, and for the exact same reasons. Like I've always said, the difference between a Ferrari owner and a DeLorean owner is that the Ferrari guy will brag about how much he spent on having someone repair his car. The DeLorean owner brags about how much he actually work on himself to repair his car. Although that's quite easily interchangeable with many marques... Still though I agree that with our prices being how they are, it's attracted allot more nicer, grateful people into DeLorean ownership. And as I've always said, it's the social group I've always preferred the most.

I don't think that the parts availability nor asking prices are too much of a concern right now. I myself started buying parts from Vendors instead of local parts counters simply because the vendors are cheaper. Being more reliable and not acting the fool are also a welcome bonus to me. More times than I care to think of I've had to argue with people @ AutoZone and elsewhere over parts that I know will fit. And not just with the DeLorean but Chevys, Dodges, and Jeeps. Anyhow, the Vendors right now offer parts at cheaper rates than most parts counters, so that's why I myself have stuck with them. Hell, I've even noticed many parts have gone down in price over the years, although in all fairness that is most likely due to competition from independent vendors. Still though the proof is right there that if prices ever do become too much, owners WILL simply source them elsewhere and drive them back down.

Let me see if I can attach the DMC Parts Database software to this post. It's all contained in a .Zip file.

[DMCVegas]

But what I find unacceptable is this company that has named itself after the orignal company in my opinion in an effort to decieve and mislead by name alone, and then names their restoration program a term that is also IMO designed to mislead and cause misunderstandings about the product they are selling and ofcourse all their created misunderstandings always works in their favor. Convienent!

Mislead how? Deceive people into thinking what though? Has any non-DeLorean owner been that much of a puritan that upon finding out that DMCH is NOT owned by JZD actually said that they'd never buy a DMC, or any other parts or services from them because of that? I've seen this brought up before on Jalopnik's boards, and no one really seems to care.

In fact at the risk of pissing off another vendor whom I've bought parts from, John Hervy, no one ever really listened when Darryl Tinnerstet complained about this same situation with him. He owned "Specialty Automotive", and John owned "Special-T-Auto". And he even had people calling him up asking for D-150 alternators & other parts. He even claimed (though there is no way to verify this) that people stopped buying from him because of bad experiences with John, and the thinking that the companies were the same. Now with that situation, THAT was a good example of mistaken identity where I could see a point. I just don't see it with DMCH taking over the DMC name, especially with JZD's cooperation.

Has anyone ever complained that they were mislead into thinking that the Warranty Offered by DMC and printed in the Owner's Manuals and affiliated paperwork that came included with their car was valid because DMCH has the same name/logo?

[tjd]

I'd say that they're alienating loyal customers by, to use the best examples, not providing us with binnacles when they can recreate the underbodies and the general consensus that the new dashboards are CRAP! Another one of their products that I had fail on me was their replacement AC belt with the DMC logo.. The thing shredded itself to pieces in less than 3,000 miles and left bits of burnt belt throughout my engine compartment. It would also speak volumes if they were to periodically ask the community what parts we'd like to see reproduced or improved. I know the clamor for cup holders hasn't ever fully gone away and I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think that there's a flawless starter solution, either.

My reasoning for the cost of parts increasing wasn't the dwindling supply. If anything, that would mean that more cars would be parted out and people would sell their cars in greater numbers because they can fetch more money. My concern is that Houston will raise their prices to offset the costs of their projects. We all know that as supplies drop, prices increase. That's supply and demand. The difference here is that they control the supply. They're bound to periodically increase prices to match inflation, as all businesses do. Though, with so few people actually avidly looking out for cross-over parts because of their extensive supply, they can raise prices on parts all-around; everything from common bolts to fenders. It would be fairly easy to make a minimal sweeping change to their overall prices to offset any money they lose with this electric car nonsense or their other various ideas; underbody costs, their wheel replacement project, etc. What happens, then, when they make the money back in parts sales? Do they decrease the prices or have a sale? MAYBE, but then it'd be short-lived and the prices wouldn't go back down. It's not a heightened scarcity of parts that I'm afraid of, it's the rising cost of ownership of these cars. If a car is reasonably-priced, I feel that it attracts a better crowd of owners. A group who's more willing to experiment with their cars and try new ideas, if you will. As the costs of parts rise, people pay more to restore a car and will only sell it for more. This is part of the way that the value rises on a classic car. The problem is that it also causes the operating costs to rise in the event minor changes are needed. DeLoreans already seem to wind up parked for long periods of time, and that will only get worse with an increase in maintenance costs. Most classic cars these days are seen going to and from car shows; which is a form of torture for the DeLorean owner, so its further eliminating the number of cars driven in the long run and the potential for interest from people actually seeing the cars.

You say it all right there Chad. I echo your sentiments about the binnacle, dash and underbody.

and absolutely the risks associated with the EV project are put on our soldiers as far as higher potential future NOS parts price increases. It's too bad that so few of us understand that.

[tjd]

"hello Mcfly, anybody home ???"


Mislead how? Deceive people into thinking what though?

[Dracula]

As for the dashboards, I didn't know that the new ones had problems. As someone in need of a new one, I'd really love to find out more about this to potentially avoid any problems of my own.

That sucks about the alternator belt too. I've had ones shred on me before as well, but in those cases it was a problem with my car. Specificly some moron bent the fan blades on the Alternator out. They naturally flex, but on my car at around 4,800 RPMs they'd go out far enough to chew into the belt.

Most important of all, what did DMCH say when you contacted them about the problems you had?

The new dashes are weak; the mounting studs are prone to breaking and they vibrate even when properly secured. I can shake mine up and down and if I tighten it any further, the studs will snap. You can also see the support ribbing and the stud mounting locations from a few angles. It's really disappointing for the price I paid. I'm going to have it re-worked and upgraded at some point.

The AC belt issue was addressed by Dave at DMCMW and he replaced my belt at no charge to me as well as shipped the other one back to Houston with a few other documented failures. I contacted them, as they installed the belt for me and I didn't want to do anything that could be interpreted as interfering on my part. I couldn't be happier with the way DMCMW handled my problem with the belt; top notch and 100% of my expectations were met. I wouldn't have dealt with Houston on that problem because I needed my car fixed immediately, as I use it as daily transportation and put the 3,000 miles on in a little under a week. Dave knows the extensive service history of my car and has never talked down to me, even considering the many inane requests I make. That's what I call service.

[DMCVegas]

"hello Mcfly, anybody home ???"

Ok then, let me clarify. What does DMCH have to gain by presenting themselves as being in any way related to the Original DeLorean Motor Company?

[DMCVegas]

The new dashes are weak; the mounting studs are prone to breaking and they vibrate even when properly secured. I can shake mine up and down and if I tighten it any further, the studs will snap. You can also see the support ribbing and the stud mounting locations from a few angles. It's really disappointing for the price I paid. I'm going to have it re-worked and upgraded at some point.

The AC belt issue was addressed by Dave at DMCMW and he replaced my belt at no charge to me as well as shipped the other one back to Houston with a few other documented failures. I contacted them, as they installed the belt for me and I didn't want to do anything that could be interpreted as interfering on my part. I couldn't be happier with the way DMCMW handled my problem with the belt; top notch and 100% of my expectations were met. I wouldn't have dealt with Houston on that problem because I needed my car fixed immediately, as I use it as daily transportation and put the 3,000 miles on in a little under a week. Dave knows the extensive service history of my car and has never talked down to me, even considering the many inane requests I make. That's what I call service.

Damn, that's sad to hear about the dashes. I've got an NOS dash installed, but the moron who installed it screwed it up. He just screwed it up by bending the dash forward so I wound up with gaps between the bottom of the A-Pillars and the dash. Not to mention that he also pushed my tweeters too far into the speaker grilles and they whole thing is bent up. It's discolored, and warped, but not cracked. If I could bend the thing back into shape I'd opt for that instead of replacing, but that's a topic for another time. But in any case, in case I can't fix it, if the new dashes are that bad perhaps I'll have to search for a used one to recover.

[tjd]

Ok then, let me clarify. What does DMCH have to gain by presenting themselves as being in any way related to the Original DeLorean Motor Company?

Simple. It's a better alternative then their true past business relation DeLorean One.

They gain the general publics trust as the uninformed relate DeLorean Motor Company of Texas as DeLorean Motor Company LTD that went bankrupt and out of business in 1982. As a result they become the go to source for the uninformed that land on DeLorean.com or discover DeLorean Motor Company by google or social networking or traditional media as the go to source for everything DeLorean related as they misinterpret their name and logo as being a continuation of the original company.

This helps DMCH with what I believe their goal of dominating all DMC-12 sales either being previously owned, performance upgraded, and or restored.

I believe that to be their long term goal. I do not believe they are any longer content with being a service, parts and restoration provider as the vendors traditionally have been. The goal here is dominating the market on all DMC-12 sales as well as parts and service. They are working toward the only option you as a DeLorean owner will have if you want to get top $ for your car is to sell it though them. As they take advantage of their misleading company name to elbow out their independant competition as far as service and parts goes, they are also working toward squeezing us DeLorean owners as well as the independant vendors as they continue with terms that would imply to the general public that they are The DeLorean authority when it comes to DMC sales by using misleading terms such as "New-Build" and DMC Certified to gain the publics trust whether it is deserving or not.

Of-course this is just my opinion and my interpretation of DMCH and their actions up until now and what I believe their plans may be as it associates with the DMC brand moving forward. This has nothing to do with their associated satellites DMCMW, DMCFL, or DMCCA etc... other then their continued association with DMCH.

and none of their satellites have ever been associated directly with DeLorean One as far as I am aware other then again their current association with DMC in Texas.

[stevedmc]

This has nothing to do with their associated satellites DMCMW, DMCFL, or DMCCA etc... other then their continued association with DMCH.

For what its worth, I would love to see the DMCH satellites split off into their own companies. Something like this would be awesome for them, they would have less fees to pay to DMCH, and they wouldn't have their hands tied following the rules of DMCH.

[Ryan]

Looks as if Ian Malcolm has an opinion on this..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuBDGzDXEBI


Disclaimer: I actually have no problem with DMCH at all. I just thought this was funny

[DMCVegas]

Well I can definitely agree that they're not content simply being a Service & Restoration center. And that I can understand as well. They've got all of these parts just lying around, taking up space, not making money. And that's all that these things have been doing since DMC* and all of the sub corporations folded: Sitting there doing nothing at all. So I can understand the the desire to manufacture new vehicles as a way to explore new revenue streams. Plus as well I like the idea of DMC-12 numbers increasing rather than decreasing. But I digress. If nothing else perhaps there is a certain monotony that needs to be broken with new ways to conjure up everything from toys to complete custom ground-up builds that keeps things interesting. Do I love my DeLorean? Yeah. To the point where I could easily live with it being the only car I'd ever drive again. Would I love a few toys to make the experience even more fun? You bet. While I myself can't speak for anyone over in Humble, I imagine that it's probably much the same for them in a certain sense.

Absolutely DMCH was once connected with D-1. I've only heard rumors and nothing solid about why the split occurred, but I can say with all certainty from my experiences and other things that I've also heard people witness that they have absolutely nothing to do with each other. In fact I would possibly wager to say that there was a TON of animosity between the two. One of the first replicated/improved parts that DMCH debuted were metal door handles. And if you've ever bought a pair, you'll see that "www.delorean.com" is molded onto the back of the handles. Several people reported that D-1 begrudgingly had to purchase door handles from them because the NOS supply was finally exhausted, and as a result they sand off DMCH's markings on the handles.

Another thing too would be that DMCH doesn't conduct business the same way as D-1. First off Ed Bernstein is/was? the very epitome of everything you describe. He started by artificially inflating prices on parts and restored cars. Even more than that he was setting *minimum* requirements on part purchases. Need a Lower Control Arm? Tough titty if you bought them from Ed. Wouldn't sell you just one, but would make you buy both, and at those outrageous prices. The only thing that's ever come close to a D-1 story that relates to DMCH in any way was a story from the DML a few years ago about a place called "The Jag Shop" in Pompano Beach, FL. Guy had a bad experience there, and people said the owner was related to Wynn. That's the only connection between the two. As far as DMCH being anything like D-1, I can honestly say that from my own experience the two are nothing alike. I've even gone to far as to flame Espy in the past, and said some pretty rude, mean things. But I've met the guy in person since then with him knowing full well who I am, and things went great. Unlike Millie Bernstein on the other hand who without even knowing who I was chased me off of her property because I dared to question her about restoration options.

But still there is the question about the perception that DMCH is using the old DMC trademarks and logos as a way to trick the buying public. Trick them into what? Into believing that they are the authority on DMC-12? Well they do have all of the engineering drawings, and lots of experience... But seriously though, I don't see how even a percieved association could possibly influence a non-DMC buyer. I wouldn't feel any different about owing a "New Build" than I would an "Dunmurry Build", and I don't see what the big difference between the two could possibly be. And I honestly don't see how a new DeLorean buyer could possibly feel any different.

Is DMCH also in danger of monopolizing the DeLorean market? I doubt it. You've got people like Josh who are making comparable exhaust systems for less, and like we're doing now, we're talking on an independent board about all of this. People found a way to circumvent the DOA, they can easily do that with DMCH *IF* that ever became a situation with them. And I seriously doubt it ever would.



*Note: DMC was the American Parent Corporation that is the top of the corporate umbrella. DMCL was a separate Corporate Entity that manufactured cars and were only allowed to sell them to DeLorean Motor Cars of America/DMCA, or DMCE for Europe, the division that never never made it to fruition.

[tjd]

I don't have a problem with them restoring or remanufacturing cars, but have serious issue with the shady marketing and terminology that allows them to be so easily confused by the media and public as being actual new cars.

[stevedmc]

Looks as if Ian Malcolm has an opinion on this..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuBDGzDXEBI


Disclaimer: I actually have no problem with DMCH at all. I just thought this was funny


I should be in bed sleeping but thanks to this post I stayed up too late since I just had to watch Jurassic Park. Now I am packing for my weekend trip.

[dmc4087]

I don't have a problem with them restoring or remanufacturing cars, but have serious issue with the shady marketing and terminology that allows them to be so easily confused by the media and public as being actual new cars.

Why do you let this bother you so much?

[tyb323]

Never had any problem with dmc or their practices. They are a business, and to be honest, the more money they make, the better parts they can reproduce. We're lucky to have a vendor like them at all. There seems to be an excess of complaining and infighting these days....

[louielouie2000]

I will say this- for all the face-palm marketing shenanigans DMCH pulls, when it comes down to the actual service they provided me when I was an owner, I have zero complaints. They always got the parts I ordered to me in an extremely timely manner, beautifully packaged, and the parts themselves were always great quality/condition (most everything I bought from them was NOS, though... not repro). Their customer service was always great, too. Warren or James would always call me when they were boxing and shipping my parts, which was invariably the same day I ordered them online. They'd call me on weekends too to check to see if I got my parts, or to answer questions I'd have. They were always exceptionally nice to deal with. I can report that my dealings with the DMCH franchise were far nicer than any other vendor I dealt with when I was an owner (some of which are no longer in business).

Yes, the marketing gimmicks they use drive me up the wall. DMCH is not making or selling new DeLoreans. They aren't even filling in unused '82 & '83 VINs to the best of my knowledge with their 'new build' cars. They're just restoring existing cars using their existing VINs. Go look on their website if you don't believe me... there's a former 'new build' car for sale at DMCMW with an early '81 VIN. These marketing gimmicks that the press gobble up drive me batty, I won't deny it. I think they further muddle the already tainted & complex DeLorean story. But if it keeps the DeLorean in the public's mind... then I guess it's not a bad thing.

[Bruce Johnson]

I don't have a problem with them restoring or remanufacturing cars, but have serious issue with the shady marketing and terminology that allows them to be so easily confused by the media and public as being actual new cars.

So which is it now, DMCH or the media? You ought to know by now that the media hears what they want to hear and reports on what they want to report regardless what they have learned or were told, or even the truth. How many times have your read on this forum "that they got it wrong again". I get it all the time at shows. I still have to explain why JZD is not in prison!!
I can read clearly what DMCH is selling, "Starting with a new, improved design, stainless steel chassis, we use a combination of new old stock (NOS), original equipment manufacturer (OEM) and our line of reproduction parts to create a DeLorean car to your specification. Whether you go “stock” or upgrade to one of our performance engine and suspension packages, other modern amenities including HD and satellite radios, iPod® interfaces, satelllite navigation, and Bluetooth™ connectivity are also available.
If I was going to plop down that amount of money for a car I'd certainly do my research first. Wouldn't you?

Bruce
1420

[Dracula]

It's DMCHs fault for choosing a marketing approach that's deliberately misleading and exploits misunderstanding. Sure, someone who is actually going to BUY a refurbished DeLorean will do their research, but with 15 cars sold, I've heard more "You know they're building them in Texas now?" comments in a week than they've sold cars. I also expect that, to an extent, people are STUPID. I get very annoyed when I have to explain that the "Cars that they're building new in Texas must have hurt the value of yours because nobody would buy a used one when they can get a new one instead." and people stick to the idea that they misinterpreted from wherever or heard it wrong from someone else.

To me, it would show an amazing amount of customer care if DMCH were to change the name of their cars to "Remanufactured" or "Refurbished" or "Rebuilt" instead of "New Build" when the cars are anything but "new." I also don't think it would be too much to have them occasionally ask us what parts we would most like to see reproduced and what areas that they can improve. Customer feedback is a key part of having a good relationship with your customer base.

[Bruce Johnson]

Then how about "new and improved"? Will that satisfy you? That's been a misleading yet widely accepted marketing ploy for years. Look, I'm going to let you run with this and wish you the best of luck with your campaign against DMCH and their franchised vendors. What you and the other guy here might want to do is get together and occupy DMCH's lobby to try to convince them to switch their marketing strategy. I've got to go make more money so that it can be taxed!! Oops did I really opine!

Bruce
1420

[Dangermouse]

Not sure whether this comment should go here or in the EV thread:

The current automotive holy-grail is hybrid and/or electric cars. Is the DMCEV not just the modern incarnation of the Gold Cars of the original DMC? An expensive, limited edition of a standard car?

Were the original owners plagued with "hey you know they make golden ones of those?"

[Dracula]

And the gold cars of DMC were nothing but a bad idea that cost the company money senselessly. It's also hard to say, since in this electronic world, information can travel at insane speeds and has a much wider rate of dissemination. Most people aren't even aware that DMC offered gold-plated cars back in the '80s.

Though, the difference between the alleged electric cars and the gold cars is the fact that you could drive the gold cars cross-country.

[louielouie2000]

Not sure whether this comment should go here or in the EV thread:

The current automotive holy-grail is hybrid and/or electric cars. Is the DMCEV not just the modern incarnation of the Gold Cars of the original DMC? An expensive, limited edition of a standard car?

Were the original owners plagued with "hey you know they make golden ones of those?"

This is not a viable comparison, IMO. Even the most automotively lay person could look at a car and confirm whether it is stainless steel or gold plated. Unless you squat down behind an EV DeLorean (and know what a stock DeLorean lower-engine cradle/oil pan looks like), the average person won't outwardly be able to differentiate an EV DeLorean from a stock DeLorean.

Interestingly enough, 2 people have posted links on my Facebook wall about DMCH's upcoming EV conversion. Both of whom are about the furthest thing possible from being "car people." This is proof to me how far reaching DMCH's marketing reaches. The bad aspect of this is the fact there is so much confused/incorrect info flying around the past several years. The obvious upside is the fact the DeLorean is doing anything but fading into obscurity in the public eye.

[Farrar]

It's DMCHs fault for choosing a marketing approach that's deliberately misleading and exploits misunderstanding. Sure, someone who is actually going to BUY a refurbished DeLorean will do their research, but with 15 cars sold, I've heard more "You know they're building them in Texas now?" comments in a week than they've sold cars.

So to whom do you assign blame when you are told that John DeLorean was the biggest cocaine dealer in the world? Lack of rebuttal by DMCH, or lack of media attention?

To whom do you assign blame when you're told that your DeLorean has a Windsor or Cleveland V8 in the front? Lack of rebuttal by DMCH, or lack of rebuttal by the Bricklin community?

To whom do you assign blame when you're told that your car's body is made of aluminum? Lack of rebuttal by DMCH?

If DMCH hired media consultants to make sure their message was 100% crafted to get through the cloth ears of the global lowest common denominator, and bought commercial time on every broadcast medium and ad space in every print venue on the planet explaining everything to the Nth degree, there would still be people out there who would hear and read it all and get everything wrong. And DMCH would have burned through all of their money without producing a single part or repairing a single car. Who would you blame then?

Farrar

[Bruce Johnson]

I took a break from making insanely taxed money to :bigclap:

[sztybel]

I would like to know the backstory on why certain people are being blacklisted for speaking out against DMCH. Is this really what it's come to? DeLorean One Part II?

[tjd]

So to whom do you assign blame when you are told that John DeLorean was the biggest cocaine dealer in the world? Lack of rebuttal by DMCH, or lack of media attention?

To whom do you assign blame when you're told that your DeLorean has a Windsor or Cleveland V8 in the front? Lack of rebuttal by DMCH, or lack of rebuttal by the Bricklin community?

To whom do you assign blame when you're told that your car's body is made of aluminum? Lack of rebuttal by DMCH?

If DMCH hired media consultants to make sure their message was 100% crafted to get through the cloth ears of the global lowest common denominator, and bought commercial time on every broadcast medium and ad space in every print venue on the planet explaining everything to the Nth degree, there would still be people out there who would hear and read it all and get everything wrong. And DMCH would have burned through all of their money without producing a single part or repairing a single car. Who would you blame then?

Farrar

How about DMCH make an honest product with an honest description instead of making up terms like "New-Build" which is not used anywhere else in the classic or collector car community? Go ahead and google "New Build Car". DeLorean Motor Company with their campaign of misinformation comes to the top of the list. All other links provided by searching "new-build" brings up ummm you guessed it actual 2011 and 2012 New cars.


Then how about "new and improved"? Will that satisfy you?

Bruce
1420

No because nothing about a "build" DeLorean is new except maybe the tires, radio, seatwarmers, and bluetooth conectivity

80% of the parts are 30 friggin years old, and others are used.


What you and the other guy here might want to do is get together and occupy DMCH's lobby to try to convince them to switch their marketing strategy. I've got to go make more money so that it can be taxed!! Oops did I really opine!

Bruce
1420

You are obnoxious!!!

No I am a taxpaying American citizen, not some radical left winger that damns people for being "rich". I will continue doing what I am doing now, refusing to spend my money directly with DMCH and holding their feet to the fire for their misleading marketing campaign.

[tjd]

I think a big part of why Houston does not care about what we think, or the potential harm their business practices bring to the DeLorean Marquee or the car's legacy in general is best illustrated in pages 14 & 15 of DeLoreans magazine Vol 2 No. 1 published by Delorean Motor Company Houston.

It gives a small profile of the employees of DMCH, I'll illustrate a couple here:


Stephen Wynne
President CEO
Favorite Car: 8-5 DeLorean, after that it's a Ferrari 360

James Espey
Vice President
Favorite Car: 8-5 a DeLorean, after that it's a Jaguar XJ-S with a V-12

and it goes on and on, the disturbing thing is other then 8-5 (Business hours) no one their states their favorite car to be a DeLorean. No one in the drivers seat at DMCH has a real passion for this automobile or marquee in general. To them it is just a business (8-5), a product to be exploited in whatever way makes them the most amount of cash. Where in contrast Dave Swingle at DMCMW is the real deal who has a real passion for the DeLorean automobile and it shows with his dedication and his commitment. How many hours days and nights and weekends is he on these boards helping owners? How often is this done by James Espey of Stephen Wynne? James is only on here to promote new DMCH product offerings, and Stephen not at all.

I think things would be extremely different if someone with a real passion for the DeLorean Marquee and not just a 8-5er was in the drivers seat in Houston.

[louielouie2000]

I think a big part of why Houston does not care about what we think, or the potential harm their business practices bring to the DeLorean Marquee or the car's legacy in general is best illustrated in pages 14 & 15 of DeLoreans magazine Vol 2 No. 1 published by Delorean Motor Company Houston.

It gives a small profile of the employees of DMCH, I'll illustrate a couple here:



and it goes on and on, the disturbing thing is other then 8-5 (Business hours) no one their states their favorite car to be a DeLorean. No one in the drivers seat at DMCH has a real passion for this automobile or marquee in general. To them it is just a business (8-5), a product to be exploited in whatever way makes them the most amount of cash. Where in contrast Dave Swingle at DMCMW is the real deal who has a real passion for the DeLorean automobile and it shows with his dedication and his commitment. How many hours days and nights and weekends is he on these boards helping owners? How often is this done by James Espey of Stephen Wynne? James is only on here to promote new DMCH product offerings, and Stephen not at all.

I think things would be extremely different if someone with a real passion for the DeLorean Marquee and not just a 8-5er was in the drivers seat in Houston.

James Espey definitely started out as an owner & a big enthusiast before he went into the DMCH franchise. He was very active on the DeLorean Mailing List back in the '90s too, and did much research on the cars & the company's history, which he always shared with the masses. He often attended smaller regional owners meets, and was exceedingly hands-on with the community. There are quite a few other stories in the community similar to his, though- when you make your hobby your job, it ceases being your hobby. You burn out and need to find another passion outside of work.

Stephen Wynne started out his journey as a European car mechanic. I don't think DeLoreans were ever his passion, per se. He just knew how to work on them at a time when no one else did. So he was hired by DeLorean One, & eventually went his own way. Despite the grievances I have with DMCH's marketing schemes this past decade, the DeLorean community owes a great debt of gratitude to Stephen IMO. He is the one who wrangled control of the DeLorean hobby away from the elitists at D1 & DOA. He's the one who secured & saved the world's remaining supply of DeLorean parts from KAPAC, & DMCH is the only vendor actively reproducing NOS trim and mechanical parts on any scale. I can't even imagine what shape the DeLorean hobby would be in without Stephen Wynne & DMCH. I fear it would be back in the stone ages, with many more dead DeLoreans & countless necessary parts which would be unavailable.

That's not to say I think DMCH are faultless. I think the DeLorean Solstice shenanigan was completely dumb, I think their usage of the term "New Build" is terribly deceptive & damaging to the DeLorean marque; and these very public side projects like the EV DeLorean further confuse the identity & history of the DeLorean car. Still though, DMCH is an overwhelmingly positive force in the grand scheme of things.

[tjd]

James Espey definitely started out as an owner & a big enthusiast before he went into the DMCH franchise. He was very active on the DeLorean Mailing List back in the '90s too, and did much research on the cars & the company's history, which he always shared with the masses. He often attended smaller regional owners meets, and was exceedingly hands-on with the community. There are quite a few other stories in the community similar to his, though- when you make your hobby your job, it ceases being your hobby. You burn out and need to find another passion outside of work.

Stephen Wynne started out his journey as a European car mechanic. I don't think DeLoreans were ever his passion, per se. He just knew how to work on them at a time when no one else did. So he was hired by DeLorean One, & eventually went his own way. Despite the grievances I have with DMCH's marketing schemes this past decade, the DeLorean community owes a great debt of gratitude to Stephen IMO. He is the one who wrangled control of the DeLorean hobby away from the elitists at D1 & DOA. He's the one who secured & saved the world's remaining supply of DeLorean parts from KAPAC, & DMCH is the only vendor actively reproducing NOS trim and mechanical parts on any scale. I can't even imagine what shape the DeLorean hobby would be in without Stephen Wynne & DMCH. I fear it would be back in the stone ages, with many more dead DeLoreans & countless necessary parts which would be unavailable.

That's not to say I think DMCH are faultless. I think the DeLorean Solstice shenanigan was completely dumb, I think their usage of the term "New Build" is terribly deceptive & damaging to the DeLorean marque; and these very public side projects like the EV DeLorean further confuse the identity & history of the DeLorean car. Still though, DMCH is an overwhelmingly positive force in the grand scheme of things.

I agree with 90% or more of what you are saying. James Espey came up during my 15 year absence from the hobby between cars.

I am aware of his early dedication to the hobby and the Marquee and it's history, as well as his other impacts or acts in the hobby both good and bad on the DML. But my impression of James as of late isn't one of the same dedication or enthusiasm he showed in his pre-DMCH presence in the hobby.

I have encountered him twice in person over the past couple years at the multi DeLorean club Detroit Woodward Dream Cruise events at which he shows up for 10 minutes to a half hour and waves his hat and leaves. The most amount of interest I saw him show in the 15 or so DeLoreans at the dream cruise this year was looking under the steering columns to see if they still had their stickers with their key codes.

As far as Stephen my impression of him both then and now is the DeLorean was a market he could corner. He has no to little passion for the marquee. It wouldn't have mattered whether it be a Yugo or a DeLorean as long as there was a market that could be cornered.

As far as the quality of the actual improved products it's more hit and miss in my opinion. Yes they develop a lot of it, more in volume then anyone else. But the new dashboard is just junk. There seems to be no one their stopping and saying is this the same quality or better of a product then what John would have put in the car? Instead they make everything as cheap as possible so they can get the highest profit margin on it, and that is a sad state of affairs as it pertains to the marquees future. When if ever will someone make a new dashboard that improves on the short cuts taken by Houston? So are they really doing us or the car any favors?

As far as Stephen rescuing the parts from Kapac. I don't subscribe to DMCH being the savior that you see them as. Yes it could have been worse if his former DeLorean One partner was successful in his bid on them. But I also think things could have been a lot better if someone else (and there was other interest at the time) would have succeeded in their bid, someone with a real passion for the marquee.

I lay equal blame with Stephen and James on my biggest beef with DMCH (maybe more so with James as I believe his background is marketing) and the most damaging aspect of DMCH on the marquee. It's PR and marketing. You hit the ball out of the park citing the DeLorean Solstice shenanigans, "New-Builds", and the EV. I'll add their deceptive name to the list.

They do not care about are cars heritage or it's status as a limited production collector car. They see it as James Espey put it a "used car". They see the cream of the crop of DeLorean cars to be "New-Builds" and now EV's. They do not care whether their marketing damages the general publics conceptions of the DeLorean and it's history. They see us as simply as marks, customers that they can hold hostage with their NOS parts monopoloy, and most sadly for the car they see us as used car owners, they don't see us or the car as anything special, they see the name DeLorean Motor Company and the cars image and history as theirs and worth nothing more then it being a promotional vehicle for them to advertise their business and their "new" cars. And that my friends is the core of the problem.

[Renee_1632]

Chad, you are super bitter about this binnacle thing. If it makes you feel any better, the leather covered ones look better in the car. I can understand annoyance with the dash, but I really thing you're going overboard about the binnacle. It's a giant curved piece of plastic. I know how OCD you are, I sympathize, but you're coming across really strongly about this.

I have done business with DMCH a few times. So far, I have no complaints. James has always been super patient when I call or IM with a pancked question. Only thing that happened that I was displeased with was it once took something I ordered a long time to get here.

Because I recently joined the community, I don't know any of this back story about D1, or DOA. What was their deal? Not trying to tangent, but I figure this was already a tangent, sooo....

[ed uding]

TJD or who you my be, Critics is always good and keep us up-to-date as well.
But on every post I see from you it is just complains, in long letters. We know right now you don’t like the Houston crew, that is ok and no one is blame you for it.
If you don’t like a product let it know us, if we not can help you don’t bay it. We will not force you to bay any part from us, I love to see if you come up with parts that we neat.
That way you can proof you can do a lot better thane we can, and it will save us time and money as well.
A lot of shouting and no idea what is behind the screen, is real simple. Stephen make for shore more hours thane you ever will know. Be a men and call him to let him know what you think, on a forum it is real simple to piss off persons and companies. They work hard to get a big group of Delorean owners happy, that you are not one of theme is more thane clear.
Feel free to send me a normal e mail if you have more complains. Even we are open for discussion’s, as bad as we are.
And make profit is what every company have to do, to invest in the future. I get have the feeling you like to company a lot, and all over just a bout the same.
If you did spend your time on the car instead of the web you car shoot be ready now.
I hope to meat you in person on DCS next year, to drink a beer and have a open conversation.

Ed Uding
www.delorean.eu

[sztybel]

I think this thread is a good thing. Vendors are getting involved and a lot of what's being said needs to be heard. People are passionate about this car and it's much different than driving around a new car. Tons of history and people who want to see it represented properly.

I constantly have to remind people that the original DMC is dead. There is no more DeLorean Motor Company. Honor the original company and all their hard work to bring us this fine car. I've always thought a "second coming" of DeLorean Motor Company has been dishonest. Their parts are appreciated, but that appreciation would be the same for a company by a different name.

That being said, there are positives in terms of parts. Things like seat covers were a nice addition in terms of new parts. Yes, the remanufactured binnacle has been a giant headache for folks, but if you want that original look it's best to stick with a recovered piece.

It is frustrating, as an owner, to field questions about things like the electric vehicle. People expect us to know about it and, frankly, it doesn't matter to me. Sure it might lead to some short term spike in popularity, but what we need is a sustained parts supply and service. The focal point cannot be an extremely limited electric vehicle. The cars are 30 years old now and a lot of things are going to crap out on them. That will move inventory and service. The original fleet of vehicles from the 1980s will always be the bread and butter of any vendor.

Let's keep this thread as cool as possible.

[Dracula]

Chad, you are super bitter about this binnacle thing. If it makes you feel any better, the leather covered ones look better in the car. I can understand annoyance with the dash, but I really thing you're going overboard about the binnacle. It's a giant curved piece of plastic. I know how OCD you are, I sympathize, but you're coming across really strongly about this.

I have done business with DMCH a few times. So far, I have no complaints. James has always been super patient when I call or IM with a pancked question. Only thing that happened that I was displeased with was it once took something I ordered a long time to get here.

Because I recently joined the community, I don't know any of this back story about D1, or DOA. What was their deal? Not trying to tangent, but I figure this was already a tangent, sooo....

I've seen several recovered ones and I simply refuse to accept it. There are a lot of things that I can't explain why I dislike, only that I do. Recovered binnacles are at the top of my list for DeLorean items. Part of it is that I know that its still broken beneath that and it would always bother me to see the stitching. The bigger part is the fact that it was promised almost 6 years ago. If they hadn't promised it back then, it wouldn't have been an issue.

One of the other problems, though I can't specifically blame DMCH, was that I had my credit card information stolen after placing an online order with them. I wasn't the only one, either. This happened to about 40 people and for a long time, the best advice was to call them up to order parts instead. Now I get my parts from DMCMW, so the issue is no longer relevant.

DeLorean1, the company Stephen Wynne used to work for, is/was ran by Ed Bernstein; a man who has an extremest eletist attitude towards the DeLorean. He raised prices on his stockpile of parts because he had a captive owner group and managed to keep his absurd business policies in place and his company operational by gouging his customers. He'd blacklist EVERYONE who criticized him or didn't treat the DeLorean in a manner that he approved of. Once, after I stated that I was 18, he told me I was too young and had no right to own a DeLorean before he hung up on me.

Towards the end of DeLorean1's business life, they started selling rediculously expensive refurbished cars and appearing in news stories about new expirimental vehicles; anyone else remember the DeLorean1-Hovercar project? Sounds a lot like another business's current plans, doesn't it? In the end, DeLorean1's customers were paying about twice the listed parts prices, in compairison to DMCH because most didn't realize there was an alternative. If DMCH doubles their parts prices, there will be NO alternative and its already been proven that the community will pay those prices. DeLorean owners have also gotten extremely complacent in looking up crossover parts; which are mostly what their "new and improved" parts are and instead waiting for DMCH to do so for them. Most people would sit back if DMCH gradually raised the cost of parts to new levels in ways that people wouldn't overtly notice; such as starting off with frequently unused parts and slowly bringing more common components up, in turn. We're in a dangerous situation with one company holding the monopoly on parts and that's something that should never be forgotten, especially by those who use their car as regular transportation.

[louielouie2000]

Chad, you are super bitter about this binnacle thing. If it makes you feel any better, the leather covered ones look better in the car. I can understand annoyance with the dash, but I really thing you're going overboard about the binnacle. It's a giant curved piece of plastic. I know how OCD you are, I sympathize, but you're coming across really strongly about this.

Every time someone says a recovered binnacle looks better than the original, I have to object. I actually like the leather & stitching, I think those aspects look nice. My biggest beef with the recovered binnacles is the fact the DMC franchise folks cover the black insert around the gauges with leather as well. It looks very kit car-esque in my opinion- not finished or original at all. Apparently they do this because they can't get the black insert to fit if there is leather tucked under it. I know it's persnickety, but the lack of the black insert around the gauges is what kills the recovered binnacles for me.

Here is a recovered binnacle... very kit car-ish, uneven, and unfinished looking. Look how especially sloppy it is around the top edge of the gauges:

http://www.bttfparts.com/bttfparts_files/phase2/dash01.jpg

Even with the dash mat, you can see the proper black insert on this binnacle... this is how they SHOULD look:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/-PCh7pbopIbg/SQT2g8amvNI/AAAAAAAALb0/i8H8BxPpGlM/Kool94.5%252520Classic%252520show%252520393.JPG?im gmax=800

Everyone has things they're very exacting about regarding their cars. I for one fully understand those who would never put a recovered binnacle in their car. I wouldn't either. To some folks, that detail just doesn't matter... and that's fine too. To each their own. :wave2:

[Renee_1632]

Every time someone says a recovered binnacle looks better than the original, I have to object. I actually like the leather & stitching, I think those aspects look nice. My biggest beef with the recovered binnacles is the fact the DMC franchise folks cover the black insert around the gauges with leather as well. It looks very kit car-esque in my opinion- not finished or original at all. Apparently they do this because they can't get the black insert to fit if there is leather tucked under it. I know it's persnickety, but the lack of the black insert around the gauges is what kills the recovered binnacles for me.

Thing is though, mine doesn't look like that. I had DMCCA put it in and it looks great, non-kit-car-ish. I prefer it over the original. Mine was finished very nicely, I thought.

[DMCMW Dave]

Actually if you look at other Euro sports cars of the era, in particular Lotus, they have the stitched look on the binnacle (and most of the interior). Having the binnacles vacuum-molded like DMC did is relatively expensive on a low-volume car. DMC didn't think low-volume! There are a few DMCs that came from the factory with stitched binnacles, all very low 500-series cars.

The reason for going over the black insert on a re-cover is that if you go under it, it does not fit anymore and that leads to having it cut or mis-fit. Either way is admittedly a compromise.

[Michael]

I like the recovered ones myself, the stiching just adds to the nice looks. If I had to choose, I would take a recovered one over my perfect black one I have now...but I'm not trading with anyone :cool1:

It's really a non-issue with me, just like my hood...the casual onlooker really doesn't care if you have a flat hood or a flapped one, stiched or non-stiched binnacle, or even carbed or F.I.

The OCD maniac owner may care, but that's his problem.:evilgrin:

[DMCMW Julee]

I think a big part of why Houston does not care about what we think, or the potential harm their business practices bring to the DeLorean Marquee or the car's legacy in general is best illustrated in pages 14 & 15 of DeLoreans magazine Vol 2 No. 1 published by Delorean Motor Company Houston.

It gives a small profile of the employees of DMCH, I'll illustrate a couple here:


and it goes on and on, the disturbing thing is other then 8-5 (Business hours) no one their states their favorite car to be a DeLorean. No one in the drivers seat at DMCH has a real passion for this automobile or marquee in general. To them it is just a business (8-5), a product to be exploited in whatever way makes them the most amount of cash. Where in contrast Dave Swingle at DMCMW is the real deal who has a real passion for the DeLorean automobile and it shows with his dedication and his commitment. How many hours days and nights and weekends is he on these boards helping owners? How often is this done by James Espey of Stephen Wynne? James is only on here to promote new DMCH product offerings, and Stephen not at all.

I think things would be extremely different if someone with a real passion for the DeLorean Marquee and not just a 8-5er was in the drivers seat in Houston.

I feel the need to jump in here (probably against my better judgement since this argument can never be won).

He doesn't need me to defend him but I will anyway. Saying that Stephen has no passion for the "automobile or marque" is off base. This is conjecture based on decisions that he has made that you may not agree with. I know for a fact how much he pours into this business knowing full well that he will not necessarily "make it back" financially. Does he do it only to keep his business alive? He has done some really longterm investing in R&D that may never "pay off". Have we had some products that don't meet expectations (his and yours)? Yes. Does that keep him from moving ahead despite the thrashing he gets for risking HIS own money? Not the Stephen I know. He cares about this car. He could be doing any number of other things, but this is what he pours himself into. Just as I hope that you do into your own job and/or passion.

Dave and I chose (and continue to choose) to do business with Stephen because he has the longevity of the DeLorean at heart. Does that mean that we are in lockstep with every direction that he takes? No. Just like every relationship, we have our disagreements. But I have never thought for one moment that this is "just for business" with him.

As far as Dave being "the real deal", he does what he does because he doesn't know how to do it any other way. He will use the current technology to communicate because he has always been a technogeek! Trust me, it makes it very difficult for us to ever really get away (and I admit that I am guilty of this as well)! Stephen, on the other hand, is not a technogeek and just because he isn't on here posting doesn't mean that he is not working his a-- off for this business and community.

When Dave and I made the decision to go into business, it was exciting for us to be doing something DeLorean related. But we were also excited about tackling this business venture with success in mind. Everyone of us in the DMC family, along with every other small business from potato chips to microchips has success as their primary (but not only) goal! They would not be in business for long if they didn't.

The example was given of "a small profile of the employees of DMCH" which consisted of Stephen and James to make the point that that they don't love DeLoreans enough. I beg to differ. There are around 30 families whose lives are directly impacted by the love (and I use that term loosely since it is an inatimate object) the people of DMC have for this car. Dave and I have always felt that when we retire from the DeLorean community, we will miss the people the most because they have been what we have enjoyed the most about being DeLorean owners as well as DMC Midwest business owners.

In conclusion, will other decisions be made by DMC that not everyone will like? Assuredly, yes. Is it an evil plan? Not even close. Will there ever be price increases? Ask yourselves, for example, if the price of other commodities have changed in your lifetime. Although I don't know when, I imagine that at some point prices will change because of scarcity or higher manufacturing costs. Common sense, nothing more.

If anyone would like to discuss this with me one on one, please contact me directly by phone or email. It is too easy not to hear what people are really trying to say in this format.

Humbly at your service,

[Bruce Johnson]

Bingo!!

[tjd]

I feel the need to jump in here (probably against my better judgement since this argument can never be won).

He doesn't need me to defend him but I will anyway. Saying that Stephen has no passion for the "automobile or marque" is off base. This is conjecture based on decisions that he has made that you may not agree with. I know for a fact how much he pours into this business knowing full well that he will not necessarily "make it back" financially. Does he do it only to keep his business alive? He has done some really longterm investing in R&D that may never "pay off". Have we had some products that don't meet expectations (his and yours)? Yes. Does that keep him from moving ahead despite the thrashing he gets for risking HIS own money? Not the Stephen I know. He cares about this car. He could be doing any number of other things, but this is what he pours himself into. Just as I hope that you do into your own job and/or passion.

Dave and I chose (and continue to choose) to do business with Stephen because he has the longevity of the DeLorean at heart. Does that mean that we are in lockstep with every direction that he takes? No. Just like every relationship, we have our disagreements. But I have never thought for one moment that this is "just for business" with him.

As far as Dave being "the real deal", he does what he does because he doesn't know how to do it any other way. He will use the current technology to communicate because he has always been a technogeek! Trust me, it makes it very difficult for us to ever really get away (and I admit that I am guilty of this as well)! Stephen, on the other hand, is not a technogeek and just because he isn't on here posting doesn't mean that he is not working his a-- off for this business and community.

When Dave and I made the decision to go into business, it was exciting for us to be doing something DeLorean related. But we were also excited about tackling this business venture with success in mind. Everyone of us in the DMC family, along with every other small business from potato chips to microchips has success as their primary (but not only) goal! They would not be in business for long if they didn't.

The example was given of "a small profile of the employees of DMCH" which consisted of Stephen and James to make the point that that they don't love DeLoreans enough. I beg to differ. There are around 30 families whose lives are directly impacted by the love (and I use that term loosely since it is an inatimate object) the people of DMC have for this car. Dave and I have always felt that when we retire from the DeLorean community, we will miss the people the most because they have been what we have enjoyed the most about being DeLorean owners as well as DMC Midwest business owners.

In conclusion, will other decisions be made by DMC that not everyone will like? Assuredly, yes. Is it an evil plan? Not even close. Will there ever be price increases? Ask yourselves, for example, if the price of other commodities have changed in your lifetime. Although I don't know when, I imagine that at some point prices will change because of scarcity or higher manufacturing costs. Common sense, nothing more.

If anyone would like to discuss this with me one on one, please contact me directly by phone or email. It is too easy not to hear what people are really trying to say in this format.

Humbly at your service,

Julee, you and dave have both been very kind to Laura and I, and I have a lot of respect for what you and Dave do. But we are going to have to agree to disagree here.

Sure I'll give credit to Stephen for having a passion for his business, but I do not buy for a second that he has a passion for the DeLorean automobile outside of it being his business.

Someone with a passion for this car and it's legacy would not work as hard as he and James do to undermind & pimp this cars real history and heritage by unashamedly out right (I'll stop short of calling it lying) misleading the media and general public about DeLorean Motor Company building "new" cars. Whether it be gas powered or electric.

Also the lack of passion in Texas is illustrated by the quality of it's product offerings. Cheap brittle plastic dashboards that is built nothing like the quality of the original that breaks when you try to install it, it shows the waffle or grid pattern through the dash in certain angles. Stephen and James are not as dissapointed as we are with these, they made the decisions to make them as cheaply as they could so they could get as large a profit margin as possible. Resulting in an inferior product. If they cared about putting in new dashboards in our cars that were the same quality or better then what John put in the car they would have never let this crap through past a prototype.

Should I bring up the "improved" Angle Drives that get half the mileage of an original on average before failure? Or Headlight switches that they know blow the included and insufficient 5amp fuse that has left people on the highway at night without working headlights? They've been told about this for a while now yet they still ship them with the 5amp fuse with no directions to the contrary. Let's not even bring up that they made it out of a lousy two position switch instead of the original three. Should I bring up the lower ball joints?

Here is a favorite subject here the ever promised binnacle. It is insulting to the community to promise this thing for 7+ years, they said after the initial announcement in 2004 that in 2005 that a manufacturer and a process had been decided on and the first production new binnacles would be available to purchase no later then July 2005. It is now late October 2011 and James is still making excuses for them.

Here is an illustration of how they see us as marks (another sign or disrespect to the community). the $30 Stainless Glow polish. "James favorite cleaner". I bet, nearly identical products can be bought at any discount store for $5 or less.

I'm sorry Julee, but if you want to illustrate how wrong I am about my estimation of Stephen and James passion for the car and the marquee and the community. The above shows something completely different. I believe that from some Vendors, including you and Dave there is a real love and passion for this car and Marquee. Not from those people, people that would treat the car and community with such disrespect over so many years.

These complaints are all minor to me in comparison to my chief complaint the outrageous misuse of the name DeLorean Motor Company, as it is used as a vehicle to confuse the media and public into believing an association to the original company which helps the illusion and misrepresentation that DMCH's restored or remanufactured cars are infact "new" cars. Which they clearly are not.

For those that think I am just complaining to complain, sorry I do a lot more reading then typing, and this subject is really under my skin and I feel passionately about it. Because I do have a love for the car and the marquee, and it pains me to see that the guardians of this cars legacy, a company that controls the name and legacy of this car moving forward would treat it with such disrespect to muddy and haze it's past legacy and it's true place in automotive history.

I will remind you I am not the only one. Like others here I have the courage to speak my mind in the face of being blacklisted ala this companies real legitimate legacy DeLorean One, not the one it bought "DMC". There are others that are equally disgusted or more so privately. I hosted a fall cruise today in Michigan and to put it mildly the disgust for Houston is rampant in the community here, and it was evident after the initial pleasantries and small talk, and guess what I am not the one that brought it up, and I did not fuel it. I did a lot of listening. Something I suggest Houston start doing. But with this companies real history I won't hold my breath.

I realize above all that with their control over the NOS parts inventory that they see us as having no choice but to do business with them, one way or the other, and I concede them to be correct. But I'll continue to choose the later. So unfortunately like in other monopolies I and like minded people have no to little power over them, so they will do what they always do, exploit and confuse the car and it's history for their own benefit. The cars real place in auto history be damned.

[tyb323]

We need to rename this thread... "In this thread, we bitch and moan about the EV, binnacles (there's one in the hotel with me now that looks great...), and marketing. Waah wahh wah. Tomorrow, we will attack the BTTF cars, and maybe the following day we can bitch about the ancient balljoint issue"

[DMCVegas]

DeLorean1, the company Stephen Wynne used to work for, is/was ran by Ed Bernstein; a man who has an extremest eletist attitude towards the DeLorean. He raised prices on his stockpile of parts because he had a captive owner group and managed to keep his absurd business policies in place and his company operational by gouging his customers. He'd blacklist EVERYONE who criticized him or didn't treat the DeLorean in a manner that he approved of. Once, after I stated that I was 18, he told me I was too young and had no right to own a DeLorean before he hung up on me.

Ed Bernstein is(was?) absolutely a bitter old man. No one knows why. Lots of stories about him being a nice guy who would let customers stay at his own home overnight if repairs on their cars ran over, and would even pay OT to mechanics to get them up and running the next day. And then he changed supposedly. I don't think he changed personally, but rather simply revealed his true colors once public communication came into play and unseated him and the DOA as a source of information.

As for Wynne, The De Lorean Gold Portfolio had a very interesting article from an Issue of DeLorean World in it about a race called "Into the Night" that took place in California (must not exist any more, I can't find a trace of it online). Reading the article, Wynne was the one who pushed to get people involved in this competition, and Ed was just his cantankerous usual self who didn't want to get involved, and when he did seemed to resent Wynne once he got lost. The article came across as Wynne being someone who was excited about the marque and getting owners involved and whatnot, whereas Ed just seemed like a total dick. Hell, back in the 90's I'd called DMCH's number a couple of times (once after hours to hear what their hours were and spoke with a female since I guess the phones were forwarded), and another time I believe it was with Wynne. I talked their ears off and both were polite. I don't think that someone who doesn't care about a marque wouldn't be willing to go talk at such lengths. And while I can't speak for him, I can say that if someone told me I wasn't dedicated or passionate about my car and the DeLorean marque, I'd certainly be offended.

Espy as well is an important character too, since as I've heard it (and correct me if I'm wrong) he's really one of about 3 people that helped speed the breaking of the strangle hold that the DOA and by proxy Ed Bernstein had on the DeLorean community. Robin O'Neil and someone else (can't remember who) started the "DeLorean Motor Club of America", but it got litigated into the ground. O'Neil like others who joined him were sick and tired of the DOA's politics. The lawsuit that was initiated shut down the "DMCofA", but left the DOA financially crippled. When the DML came along (out of USENET) their finances were pretty drained, but luckily Espy stuck with it and stood up to some sort of lawsuit that was initiated. That was really the death-blow at that point, and ensured that the DOA would never rise again. As for Espy not showing up to events too often, well the Texas DeLorean Club seems to have him in quite a few shots at different events as well.

As for why Wynne and Espy don't show up that often at National events to mingle, I dunno. Maybe it has to do with not wanting to get bitched at because the matrix of the wrinkle finish on the radio bracket is 100% accurate, or whatever other things people can complain about. Maybe like how we get tired of answering cocaine questions, they also gets tired of complaints, bitches, and people pestering them for technical support. I dunno. When I worked for the cable company I took my badge off when I got off work because I hated people griping to me about their internet, TV service, or asking me to help them diagnose a problem they couldn't describe. And then when you decline because you're not at work people get indignant. So if that's the case, yeah, I totally understand. He seems like a nice enough guy though. I did get to meet him once. He didn't know who I was, but he came across to me as someone who was a friendly guy, but doesn't really speak unless spoken to, as well as if he's got something on his mind he's going to try and politely avoid distractions. I can honestly relate to that. Plus as you rise in job rank your responsibilities do change. Less of his day now is probably spent wrenching on cars, and more likely negotiating contracts and what not (I'm guessing), so who knows what he's up to. Although I do see photos of him at events with the Texas DeLorean Club too...


Towards the end of DeLorean1's business life...

Did they finally close up shop? I've been mostly out of the loop for the past 5 years...


In the end, DeLorean1's customers were paying about twice the listed parts prices, in compairison to DMCH because most didn't realize there was an alternative.

Well, you also have to realize the types of people that D-1 was dealing with. Like that old song, "Californias a brand-new game". The types of people who used to own DeLoreans has changed SIGNIFICANTLY! The DeLorean is a middle-class exotic. I like it that way, and I know that we're both in agreement that we'd like to see it stay that way. But you had these people who were the elitists and were conflicted about the DeLorean. Like the dead guy's estate whom I bought my car from, his kids didn't want it because it wasn't a prestigious car. Owning a DMC-12 takes some balls in a certain way. Like I've always said, most DeLorean owners are eccentric. And that means simply not conforming to other people's viewpoints & perceptions. Clothes, hobbies, etc. Or in this case the cars we drive. We don't care what other people think. We're gonna do what we want. The elitist attitudes came from people who honestly loved the DeLorean but couldn't justify owning it to their circle of friends who looked down upon it. So the artificial prices increases and the fake prestige was pushed and maintained by these people. To them working on your own car was just a trashy thing to to. Hell, I'm pretty sure that as we look in awe at people who do bodywork demonstrations on repairing Stainless, these elitists probably looked down on them for being blue collar. And that is what actually supported D-1 all these years. The elitists however are a dying breed, literally. Whereas they were purists, people now are not. The DeLorean owner has changed from someone wanting to preserve a car at any cost, to someone who wants to maintain and operate a car at any cost.

And along those lines, I'd say the best thing to do here is take the "Pepsi Challenge" and compare DMCH's prices with AutoZone's and others. The overwhelming majority of parts are CHEAPER through DMC than parts counters that I've been to. I can tell you right now that Houston doesn't have a monopoly over DeLorean parts. You can go elsewhere to buy them, but you'll pay more.

[tjd]

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2011/0228/life-delorean-chromeo-dmc-gran-turismo-future-is-back.html


Wynne says he has enough original parts to build 500 more new-old cars, including a limited-edition Final Run of 50 to commence production this June

The above story raised my eyebrow back when it was first run back in February but I figure this is the most relevent thread to bring this back up.

Another case where Stephen has pimped this car for self serving self promotion for DeLorean Motor Company Houston. In the same vein as the BS marketing of "New-Builds" and the whoring of the DMC brand and car for attention with the Solstice and now the EV. He brought up a "limited-edition 50 final run New-Build series" set for production beginning June 2011. Recently it has come to light that DMCH has only managed to build and sell 15 "New-Builds" total since 2007 though the stated capacity is anywhere from 6 to 20 cars per year depending on where you read it. So this limited 50 final builds is complete nonsense as at this rate will they ever sell 50 total? and just more of the same from Wynne and company as far as the whoring of the car and it's legacy in a desperate attempt to drum up a little more "new-build" business.

Though this story was unsuccessful in becoming the media sensation that the EV story became and was largely forgotten as I don't believe they brought it up again it was still more shameless misinformation and self promotion by DMCH at the car and it's legacy's expense. Not something I would imagine someone that has a real passion for this car and it's history would do. Not surprisingly at all though for someone that sees the car and it's associated history as nothing more then a marketing tool for his personal business to exploit, twist and redefine as he personally sees fit.

*Side Note*
Reading Stephen's bio as it is told here like it is told countless other times when the DeLorean is whored with misinformation to the press to help promote DMC Houston. The bio for Stephen brings up his childhood in Liverpool and how he worked on the cars in the early 80's. But it skips right over DeLorean One and his former business partner, it states that while in California Stephen just "heard about Kapac and the NOS parts" then fast forwards to the current day DeLorean Motor Company in Texas completely omitting his years at DeLorean One. While the article sugar coats and skips over Stephen's earlier involvement with the marquee much to his favor, it isn't so kind to John Z though as it of course brings up the drug case and the scandal.

I bet your not aloud to even say the words DeLorean One in Stephen's presence, LOL!!!

[SamHill]

The above story raised my eyebrow

Only one, eh? Unibrow?



I bet your not aloud to even say the words DeLorean One in Stephen's presence, LOL!!!

Um, "you're" and "allowed." I'll give your troll 1/10.

[louielouie2000]

Only one, eh? Unibrow?



Um, "you're" and "allowed." I'll give your troll 1/10.


While we're on the subject, you missed the oft misuse of the word "marquee" in the DeLorean community. The DeLorean is a marque, ie: brand or model type. A "marquee" is a roof above a theatre entrance. :tongue:

Marquee definition: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/marquee

Marque definition: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/marque

[natesky]

The above story raised my eyebrow back when it was first run back in February but I figure this is the most relevent thread to bring this back up.

Another case where Stephen has pimped this car for self serving self promotion for DeLorean Motor Company Houston.

I actually agree with most of this except for the parts of it being somehow wrong or self-serving in a bad sense.

They do stretch the limits of optimism in my opinion when it comes to things like new-builds, etc. but frankly I love that they are out there doing it, taking measured risks, drumming up interest and excitement for the car and their business.

I swear every-time I drive my Delorean there are people asking if I know there is a company in Texas building new ones again.. most of them think that "Limited production" means only a few thousand a year.. ;) (very American) To me that is well played, good for DMC-houston,and the hobby at large.

Delorean's have always been associated with a certain 'distance' from reality, from the 40,000 per year initial business case to the flux capacitor, and even the common perception of new-builds, ev car, etc.).. why stop now?

-Nathan
11501

[tjd]

Only one, eh? Unibrow?



Um, "you're" and "allowed." I'll give your troll 1/10.

From someone that get's all huffy puffy as an enthusiast about someone making a living building time machine replicas and by doing so turning the DeLorean Marque into a cartoon (someone that I might add gets much less publicity then DMCH and doesn't have a message to confuse the history of the marque) I figured you'd feel more strongly about the damage that DMCH does when it whores the car to the media and that it is unfortunately succeeding in it's quest to convince the general public that they are out there building new cars. A game they are playing in order to reduce your car into a 30 year old "used" car in order to prop up their 30 year old "new" cars in the public eyes. All to what end? So Stephen can retire with more money and stamp his name into this cars history undeservedly so next to John DeLorean? What they are doing is an outright assault on the DeLorean Marque and your worried about Video Bob turning the marque into a cartoon?

Attacking someone's grammar to minimize the message in this case is very noble of you.

I'll give your troll a 7/10.

[SamHill]

I don't get huffy about it. It's certainly not my preference, but, "that's just like my opinion, maaaaaaaaan." I like a lot of movies and have my favorites but I might end up climbing up a water tower with a high powered scope if I was forcibly reminded of any of them every single day.

Yes, it's primarily attention for DMCH. As it is for us.

A few good ideas will come of the electric car. I see some members going after that steering wheel, for example. At what will balloon to a $100K asking price, it's not exactly meant for folks like me, so I'm just not worried about it.

I like buying from DMCH, I like the personal touch of DMCMW, I've called PJ Grady a time or two. I try to spread the love because I need all the help I can get with this damn thing. I don't think DMCH has done anything egregious with its marketing.

[Bruce Johnson]

All to what end? So Stephen can retire with more money and stamp his name into this cars history undeservedly so next to John DeLorean?

Occupy!!

[opethmike]

I try to spread the love because I need all the help I can get with this damn things.

These*

[tyb323]

As for why Wynne and Espy don't show up that often at National events to mingle, I dunno.

James Espey and his lovely fiancee were just out at the DMA Fall Foliage Tour last night/today in Washington DC to show off the new binnacle and fuel pump/sender set up and talk about the EV a bit. James has come to many of our events in the past and even donates parts from DMC for us to use in our raffle. So I'd say he's still out and about.

[SamHill]

These*

In my defense I'm on a blackberry. Irregardless, I can tell you that Deloreans are quite a bit of slugs, etc.

[sean]

Irregardless,....
Nice..

[SamHill]

Nice..

Hindsight is a catch 20/20.

[DMCVegas]

Thinking about this a little bit more, a couple of things come to mind. The first one is the Nissan 240Z. Back in the mid to late 90's, Nissan started a program where they started buying survivor cars and would restore them. In turn they would be sold through certain authorized dealerships. They in turn were stripped down, refurbished, and rebuilt using new parts much in the same way, if not the exact same way that DMCH is doing now. While they were touted as refurbished cars by Nissan, the press touted them all as "Factory" rebuilds and made it come across that they were being sold as "new" cars. Like DMCH, Nissan stated facts when interviewed, but didn't have control over the media's interpretation. They even loved to show-off the car's origins and original designer, as well as popularity in culture world-wide as it's selling points too.

The second thing that comes to mind is Jeep.

The Jeep is a very interesting vehicle. Most everyone knows the story of the contest the military hosted for the creation of a utilitarian vehicle, Bantam won the contest, but since they didn't have the manufacturing capabilities and it wasn't a complete design, Willys and Ford revised it, and the final model was designed by Willys. From there Willys and Ford ended up manufacturing Jeeps for WWII. And after the war the Jeep entered civilian life and was eventually sold off several times. Here's the brief run-down of it's history.

Vehicle created by Bantam.
Willys-Overland introduces vehicle, earns name "Jeep" and brand/marque is born.
War ends, Willys-Overland purchased and Jeep then owned by Kaiser.
Kaiser sells Jeep to American Motors.
Primary interest in American Motors and ultimately the Jeep brand is sold to Chrysler.
Chrysler along with Jeep are then absorbed by Daimler.
Daimler sells Chrysler and Jeep to Cerberus Capital.
Chrysler goes bankrupt and ownership of it and Jeep are taken away from Cerberus and given to Fiat.

I find this a rather fascinating parallel to the DeLorean. See what we have here is both a vehicle, as well as a marque, that survive on their own, though neither are owned by their original creators. Yet why is no one complaining that Jeeps are no longer real Jeeps? Why does no one complain that any the owners of Jeep at any time in the company's history have just been cashing-in, or whoring out the brand? The closest anyone EVER got were the softer springs and square headlights of the YJ, but no one questioned the brand. What makes Stephen Wynne any different from ANY of the owners of Jeep? Where is the outrage that anytime a Jeep was released with Air Conditioning, or Cup Holders that Jeep was out of touch with it's roots? Which of you now would walk onto a lot and refuse to buy a Jeep because it had a radio, and you don't want fancy gadgets or anything else that doesn't make it a real Jeep!

And also, don't even start the argument that it's because the platform that uses the same parts that the new owners *shouldn't* be allowed to refurbish or build new cars out of them. DMCH are not the only ones who are doing this. General Motors does this too! (http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/impala/gm-cites-bankruptcy-to-avoid-liability-in-impala-lawsuit.html) Hell, they even cite a lawsuit that says they should be immune from class action lawsuits about problems for the same exact vehicles they crank out now, that they did before their restructuring citing that they are NOT the same company at all! Both GM and Chrysler are new companies under new ownership. Why is there not the same disdain for them?

Even with a brand such as Ford that outside of stock offerings has remained independent for all of these years, Leadership changes. Technology Changes. Lots of things just simply change. There is no way at all that we could ever compare a particular long running platform such as an F-Series truck, or a Mustang to any of their previous generations. Does that mean that the company is out of touch with it's past? Whenever a car manufacturer, be them originally owned still or having since changed hands, proudly displays a marque's heritage, does that really mean that they're "whoring it out"? Do product evolution and ownership changes really separate a marque's future from it's past to the point that they're not related?

If that's the case, then we must say the same for ALL marques and hold them to the same standard. That means that ALL Cadillacs made after 1908 are not *true* Cadillacs at all. That's just General Motors whoring out the Cadillac brand by slapping the badge on a car. It's a Cadillac in name only since Henry Leyland has nothing at all to do with it. Cadillac means nothing more than bade-engineering comprising a luxury package.

Whenever I think of the history of the DeLorean, be it the car, the company, or the man himself, I always think of this passage:

It is said that what is called 'the spirit of an age' is something to which one cannot return. That this spirit gradually dissipates is due to the world's coming to an end. In the same way, a single year does not have just spring or summer. A single day, too, is the same. For this reason, although one would like to change today's world back to the spirit of one hundred years or more ago, it cannot be done. Thus it is important to make the best out of every generation. This is the mistake of people who are attached to past generations; they have no understanding of this point. On the other hand, people who only know the disposition of the present day and dislike the ways of the past are too lax.

-Yamamoto Tsunemoto, "Hagakure: The Book of the Samuari"

[Way of Cain]

I see the DMCH, love hate relationship is still around.

Quick question, kinda on topic. Was the DMC trademarked logo debacle ever sorted out?

[Dracula]

I see the DMCH, love hate relationship is still around.

Quick question, kinda on topic. Was the DMC trademarked logo debacle ever sorted out?

No. They still threaten lawsuits despite no legal ground. If they had a legitimate claim, Deleware North Companies would be in trouble.

[stevedmc]

If they had a legitimate claim, Deleware North Companies would be in trouble.

Doesn't Delorean Motor Company own the name/logo?

[Dracula]

Doesn't Delorean Motor Company own the name/logo?

They trademarked what they call the "Stylized" logo, which, in reality, is just the 3-D rendering of the original DMC logo from the early promotional videos. They've also registered their name as "DeLorean Motor Company" but, and this is a fairly substantial caveat, they don't own the name. Case in point, I can make a claim that says "The DeLorean Motor Company ripped off everyone they ever sold anything to. They're a bunch of blatant liars, cheats, charlatans, and rouges who don't pay their invoices, default on debts, associate with lowlife characters, and no self-respecting, honest businessman or company would work with them." It's not slander because I can say I was referencing the REAL DeLorean Motor Company created by JZD and they're not affiliated with them, which is 100% true, and, therefore, they have no legal right. It'd be like if I went to open up an energy trading company and call it "Enron" I can do this, and operate as such, but so can ANYONE. When a business fails AND THE COPYRIGHT ON THE NAME ISN'T RENEWED, then it falls into the realm of public domain and is subject to free use. I could even open up a car dealership, call it DeLorean Motor Cars Ltd., use the original DMC logo, and operate as such, but it wouldn't serve my business plans. This is possible because, once the copyright expires, IF IT ISN'T RENEWED, it's up for grabs.

[DMCVegas]

They trademarked what they call the "Stylized" logo, which, in reality, is just the 3-D rendering of the original DMC logo from the early promotional videos. They've also registered their name as "DeLorean Motor Company" but, and this is a fairly substantial caveat, they don't own the name. Case in point, I can make a claim that says "The DeLorean Motor Company ripped off everyone they ever sold anything to. They're a bunch of blatant liars, cheats, charlatans, and rouges who don't pay their invoices, default on debts, associate with lowlife characters, and no self-respecting, honest businessman or company would work with them." It's not slander because I can say I was referencing the REAL DeLorean Motor Company created by JZD and they're not affiliated with them, which is 100% true, and, therefore, they have no legal right. It'd be like if I went to open up an energy trading company and call it "Enron" I can do this, and operate as such, but so can ANYONE. When a business fails AND THE COPYRIGHT ON THE NAME ISN'T RENEWED, then it falls into the realm of public domain and is subject to free use. I could even open up a car dealership, call it DeLorean Motor Cars Ltd., use the original DMC logo, and operate as such, but it wouldn't serve my business plans. This is possible because, once the copyright expires, IF IT ISN'T RENEWED, it's up for grabs.

Very true. Except I don't believe that any of the DMC copyrights or logos ever fell into the public domain. I thought that as a part of the settlement in United States Bankruptcy Court in Michigan a part of the settlement was that JZD would retain all rights to all logos. Hence they never entered into the Public Domain.

[sztybel]

He's right. The original logo and company name is public domain.

[Ron]

http://tess2.uspto.gov/ImageAgent/ImageAgentProxy?getImage=77580023

Word Mark DMC
Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 016. US 002 005 022 023 029 037 038 050. G & S: Decals
Mark Drawing Code (5) WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS IN STYLIZED FORM
Serial Number 77580023
Filing Date September 26, 2008
Current Filing Basis 1B
Original Filing Basis 1B
Published for Opposition February 17, 2009
Owner (APPLICANT) Adam Ellis Lee INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 10548 NW 15th Place Yukon OKLAHOMA 73099
Description of Mark Color is not claimed as a feature of the mark. The mark consists of the stylized letters "DMC".
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD
Abandonment Date December 14, 2009

=====
http://tess2.uspto.gov/ImageAgent/ImageAgentProxy?getImage=75756108

Word Mark DMC
Goods and Services IC 012. US 019 021 023 031 035 044. G & S: Automobiles and structural parts. FIRST USE: 19950501. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19950501 IC 035. US 100 101 102. G & S: Automobile dealerships. FIRST USE: 19950512. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19950512
Mark Drawing Code (5) WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS IN STYLIZED FORM
Serial Number 75756108
Filing Date October 30, 1999
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition July 3, 2001
Registration Number 2491848
Registration Date September 25, 2001
Owner (REGISTRANT) DeLorean Motor Company CORPORATION TEXAS 15023 Eddie Drive Humble TEXAS 77396
Type of Mark TRADEMARK. SERVICE MARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR).
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

[Dracula]

6295

Here's a shot of the logo that DeLorean used in his promotional videos to try to recruit dealers before the car was even in production. Houston didn't invent the logo they're currently using.

[sean]

Jeep discussion moved here (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?2063-Jeep-talk***split-from-DMCH-discussion***).

[tjd]

Occupy!!

My issue with the powers to be at DMCH Houston has nothing to do with issues that seem relevent to the occupy wakos in NYC and elsewhere.

I don't fault Stephen Wynne for being "rich" or not paying enough taxes.

I fault Stephen Wynne for taking something that doesn't belong to him (something he did not create) the DeLorean Car and whoring it to the masses and misleading them into believing that "new" ones are being produced to try and legitimize his illegitimate faux DeLorean Motor Company to the general public. And for what?

What does a specialty car parts vendor and restorer that sells relatively low volumes of restored and reconditioned cars as well as performance upgrades and now a made to order electric conversion need all this media attention for?

I think part of it is the $5 Stainless Polish that they sell for $30 analogy. You may not sell a lot of it but for the ones you do sell at $30 for a $5 can of polish that's a hell of a lot of profit. So a few EV's for 90K or more and Stage 3's at 16K from stock go a long way. Not to mention the handful of "new-builds" that they take a 5K DeLorean and loot a vast 30 year old parts inventory that they bought in whole for less then a million dollars, throw in a few "new" parts and a few used parts from the 5K donor car and you have something starting at 57K a pop that they feel good about calling a "new" car. You whore the car and brand to enough people you can get a few marks with more money then sense to bite.

Long term wise they are looking to snare the lions share of money to be made with the Delorean, what James likes to call the "used" DeLorean. With all the media whoring that DMCH engages in they are working to minimize the value of the DeLorean owner/enthusiast owned "used cars" through their misinformation about their company identity and products (cars) as well as using their self promotion to minimize the market reach of their independent service and restoration competition further. They have already cornered the parts market for the most part for better or worse both NOS and "improved". They are now trying to squeeze us (their customer base) owners/enthusiasts as well as their independent vendor competition by using their misleading marketing campaign touting their DeLorean Motor Company brand to ensnare the newbie or novice DeLorean enthusiast into looking only to them or their affiliated satellites for their new to them "used" DeLorean and related services and products. After all "they must be the authority, since they are building the "new" ones".

I just can't see what they are doing (the smoke and mirrors) in any other way. Starting with Stephen Wynne starting to use the DMC name, then the expansion of the satellites, the roll out of the "new-builds", beginning to use car dealer terms like "previously owned DMC Certified" and calling the satellites "dealers". This began as a calculated assault on the independent parts & service providers and is now moving on to the individual car owner/enthusiast. They are using their press attention and misleading company name and confusing "new" car descriptions to devalue your "used" car all to simply increase their standing with the general public as the undisputed "authority" when it comes to all things DeLorean.

and most disturbingly these people making these decisions to pimp the car to crush their perceived competition and minimize the value of the non "new" cars that most of us own in order to push their own incarnations of it, are being touted here by some as DeLorean enthusiasts with an unquestionable passion for the marque.

and for some others as long as they keep whoring the car complete with all the BTTF references to keep the car "relevant" and keep throwing new sneakers, t-shirts, key-chains and Hot Wheels your way you'll stay content.

How blind can you be?

[stevedmc]

My issue with the powers to be at DMCH Houston has nothing to do with issues that seem relevent to the occupy wakos in NYC and elsewhere.

I don't fault Stephen Wynne for being "rich" or not paying enough taxes.

I fault Stephen Wynne for taking something that doesn't belong to him (something he did not create) the DeLorean Car and whoring it to the masses and misleading them into believing that "new" ones are being produced to try and legitimize his illegitimate faux DeLorean Motor Company to the general public. And for what?

What does a specialty car parts vendor and restorer that sells relatively low volumes of restored and reconditioned cars as well as performance upgrades and now a made to order electric conversion need all this media attention for?

I think part of it is the $5 Stainless Polish that they sell for $30 analogy. You may not sell a lot of it but for the ones you do sell at $30 for a $5 can of polish that's a hell of a lot of profit. So a few EV's for 90K or more and Stage 3's at 16K from stock go a long way. Not to mention the handful of "new-builds" that they take a 5K DeLorean and loot a vast 30 year old parts inventory that they bought in whole for less then a million dollars, throw in a few "new" parts and a few used parts from the 5K donor car and you have something starting at 57K a pop that they feel good about calling a "new" car. You whore the car and brand to enough people you can get a few marks with more money then sense to bite.

Long term wise they are looking to snare the lions share of money to be made with the Delorean, what James likes to call the "used" DeLorean. With all the media whoring that DMCH engages in they are working to minimize the value of the DeLorean owner/enthusiast owned "used cars" through their misinformation about their company identity and products (cars) as well as using their self promotion to minimize the market reach of their independent service and restoration competition further. They have already cornered the parts market for the most part for better or worse both NOS and "improved". They are now trying to squeeze us (their customer base) owners/enthusiasts as well as their independent vendor competition by using their misleading marketing campaign touting their DeLorean Motor Company brand to ensnare the newbie or novice DeLorean enthusiast into looking only to them or their affiliated satellites for their new to them "used" DeLorean and related services and products. After all "they must be the authority, since they are building the "new" ones".

I just can't see what they are doing (the smoke and mirrors) in any other way. Starting with Stephen Wynne starting to use the DMC name, then the expansion of the satellites, the roll out of the "new-builds", beginning to use car dealer terms like "previously owned DMC Certified" and calling the satellites "dealers". This began as a calculated assault on the independent parts & service providers and is now moving on to the individual car owner/enthusiast. They are using their press attention and misleading company name and confusing "new" car descriptions to devalue your "used" car all to simply increase their standing with the general public as the undisputed "authority" when it comes to all things DeLorean.

and most disturbingly these people making these decisions to pimp the car to crush their perceived competition and minimize the value of the non "new" cars that most of us own in order to push their own incarnations of it, are being touted here by some as DeLorean enthusiasts with an unquestionable passion for the marque.

and for some others as long as they keep whoring the car complete with all the BTTF references to keep the car "relevant" and keep throwing new sneakers, t-shirts, key-chains and Hot Wheels your way you'll stay content.

How blind can you be?

Its like 1984 all over again.

[SamHill]

What in the sam hill is so wrong with getting the car out there so that the brand remains in the recent memory of the general public? Espey and Co. made a disorganized parts depot into a going concern that has a chance to exist after its original inventory has been exhausted. Developing the brand is a path to survival beyond the little cult. I'm sure they look at the goodwill behind Harley Davidson trademark and drool. (HD: a company that survived the ultimate inferiority of its actual products on image alone.)

My counterpoint is that they are rightly attempting to exploit the legend of the car as an exciting product. A simple parts-for-order business doesn't accomplish that goal.

[TTait]

I admittedly have not read all the posts here, and there may well be some issues that I missed... but this whole line of logic has me a little perplexed. I sincerely apologize if this offends anyone - I like having you all here as friends and peers, but if its an open discussion I'm going to have to chime in with my polite dissent.

DMCH is a business. As far as businesses go they are not pulling the same kind of crap that the wall street, defense contractors, tobacco companies or even one of the alternative power startups are - they have purchased assets and they are trying to leverage them as they see fit. Legally.

If you want a different standards of ethics applied I think you have a long long way to go down the list of BS business practices before you get to the likes of DMCH. I hold the folks at Phillip Morris morally responsible to no small degree for the suffering and slow murder of my parents for profit - can we consider starting with them first, please?

Whether you like them or not, they are keeping the value of all of our cars up, by both financially and logistically supporting the brand. Like it or not without Houston and their parts and expertise 95% of our cars would probably not be on the road, and it would be another orphaned brand that no one would want to touch because it would be impossible to economically service them.

Ya, that's an Ed Bernstien wet dream, but not mine. The idea that none of the little piss ants that can't have an artisan hand build a new door for them at the cost of $125,000 deserve to own the car is not my idea of fun. Worse, that because I can't get a key part for my car, my only real choice is to part it out would be sad.

If you don't like them, get your parts somewhere else or start a competing company. Anyone who doesn't like the way they are marketing the brand is welcome to hire lawyers to try to wrest it away from them - or simply make them a cash offer. Its a business - I'm sure there is a price where any one of us could walk in and take over if we were so able and committed.

As far as I can measure it, imperfect as they may be, these guys are a net benefit to the community and its not their business practices that turn me off, its the Monday morning quarterbacking that I find offensive.

If you hate Houston, put up. Pool your money and buy them out and I will gladly buy parts from you, cocoon my car, or sell it as I see fit. That's my business, and my business ends there.

I therefore politely disagree with the vitrol getting flung around here. To not like something they do is fine, but to say they are morally wrong, or even stupid for doing it goes too far for me. Any one of us are welcome to take out ball and go home and not play with Houston anymore.

That said - anyone who wants to join me in someday taking down Big Tobacco - send me a pm. We all have our hot buttons, don't we? :hatchet:

[Ron]

http://www.helifreak.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

[Nicholas R]

DMCH is a business.
+1 http://www.helifreak.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

[Bruce Johnson]

me too http://www.helifreak.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

[Dracula]

So when myself and a few others call DMCH a business and state that their primary objective is to make money, we're booed and jeered, but when someone says that they're a business and the savior, it's applause and accolades? This just shows how so many of you are willing to overlook anything that DMCH does and they know it! EVERY business needs to be scrutinized and watched; more-so with those that you have a vested interest in and especially those with a monopoly in any field. This thread has several good examples of less than ethical business practices based on deception and makes note of the fact that our legitimate feedback as their core customer group falls on deaf ears. Every side project they take on affects our purchase price of parts or the labor rate; every publicity statement is something we have to deal with when operating our cars and something we have to consider when we go to sell them. I'm not going to look away just because I like that they're a convenient source of parts. I'm going to hold them to the same rigorous standards that I'd expect of any business I associate with and be diligent in my observations and monitoring of their practices. I'd hate for them to force me out of the world of DeLorean ownership, but it can happen to any of us.

[Mike C.]

I look at it this way:

DMCH buys a case of stainless steel cleaner for say... 5 bux a can...

They slap a label on it and re-sell it for $30 bux a can....

You all buy said re-labeled can for YEARS and YEARS at $30 bux a can... love it, keep buying it, keep using it. Sing praises of the wonders of stainless polish.

Someone finds original cans that are only $5 bux, and now you are all pissed. Why? Did any of you source out a stainless polish that worked? Nope. You kept buying the product that was known to work and that was AVAILABLE.

Supply and demand 101.

You demanded it, they supplied it. You paid the asking price, and kept buying it, that's your problem.

Business 101... earn the most profit for your product that the market will allow. That is what they did. Bottom line, they need to make a profit.

You all want them to coddle you and tell you that everything is ok, that's not going to happen. They run a business that supplies parts to a small market. If you don't like the parts, come up with BETTER ones. That's the beauty of free enterprise. If you don't want to come up with better ones, then stop the complaints and use what you have available.

If you don't like their product, dont buy it.
If you think it's too expensive, try to find an alternative.

[thirdmanj]

...Go ahead and google "New Build Car". DeLorean Motor Company with their campaign of misinformation comes to the top of the list.

I think you just made their case. Thats a pretty ingenious way of marketing. In todays super fast, high speed, too much information -can't-handle---traffic world. DMCH has found a way to get their web site to the top of a google search list without the "DMC" or "DeLorean" text entering into it. Well done!

It's a business. Pure and simple. Marketing has a job to do, and if it gets peoples gears turning and imaginations running then its doing its job. Purchasing a product is on the customer, and it doesn't take too many clicks to find out what a "New-Build" car is. In other words, one would know damn well what it was before it was purchased.

You like the to use the word "whoring" a lot when it comes to DMCHs use of the logo. Well welcome to capitalism and free market economy. Your use of the word "whoring" is just a negative way of saying "marketing" because that's what is is. That logo is one the most recognizable features of the DeLorean, apart from the doors and skin. It would be in any business man's interest to acquire it for use with his or hers DeLorean focused business.

[Ikeaboy1]

I look at it this way:

DMCH buys a case of stainless steel cleaner for say... 5 bux a can...

They slap a label on it and re-sell it for $30 bux a can....

You all buy said re-labeled can for YEARS and YEARS at $30 bux a can... love it, keep buying it, keep using it. Sing praises of the wonders of stainless polish.

Someone finds original cans that are only $5 bux, and now you are all pissed. Why? Did any of you source out a stainless polish that worked? Nope. You kept buying the product that was known to work and that was AVAILABLE.

Supply and demand 101.

You demanded it, they supplied it. You paid the asking price, and kept buying it, that's your problem.

Business 101... earn the most profit for your product that the market will allow. That is what they did. Bottom line, they need to make a profit.

You all want them to coddle you and tell you that everything is ok, that's not going to happen. They run a business that supplies parts to a small market. If you don't like the parts, come up with BETTER ones. That's the beauty of free enterprise. If you don't want to come up with better ones, then stop the complaints and use what you have available.

If you don't like their product, dont buy it.
If you think it's too expensive, try to find an alternative.

+1.

[tyb323]

God forbid the people who work for DMC and have their livelihood tied up into it make a couple of bucks! That would be ridiculous! These people were born to donate all parts and scrape by making minimal profit, and it would be disgusting if they were to make money like the rest of us!


And god forbid that someone walking down the street actually knows what a DeLorean is!

[sztybel]

Tyler: For me it's not about them making a profit or being a business. It's about definite flaws in re-manufactured parts from a company calling themselves DeLorean Motor Company. Dashboards that break easily during installation, headlight switches that shut off during driving, angle drives that break soon after installation, lower ball joints...there are several legitimate gripes.

The people going after Houston's marketing aspect should be more focused on the quality of the parts being produced. That's a safety concern and, to me, a primary concern.

[DanRC30]

Don't forget about the "new longer door struts" that Sonny V., oops....er.... James Espey said were designed to make it easier to get in and out of the car. It was really just a standard strut that was cheaper since it was readily available and since it was longer, it was bending ball studs in the chassis of the car! I believe Rick G. demonstrated this in a nice Auto CAD drawing. Could you imagine you or your significant other getting out of the car and the ball stud breaks and the door comes crashing down?!?!?

There are plenty of examples like this. There are so many over the years that I have forgotten many. I know there are folks out there that keep a running tab though. It'd be neat to see someone list them all here. :)

---Dan





Tyler: For me it's not about them making a profit or being a business. It's about definite flaws in re-manufactured parts from a company calling themselves DeLorean Motor Company. Dashboards that break easily during installation, headlight switches that shut off during driving, angle drives that break soon after installation, lower ball joints...there are several legitimate gripes.

The people going after Houston's marketing aspect should be more focused on the quality of the parts being produced. That's a safety concern and, to me, a primary concern.

[SamHill]

Ah, now it's about safety. Let me worry about my own safety, thanks. I normally don't say this, but comments from newly established accounts are bullshit. If you feel strongly enough about it, put your name to it.

[sean]

I normally don't say this, but comments from newly established accounts are bullshit. If you feel strongly enough about it, put your name to it.

So Im clear, you're saying DanRC30 and sztybel are new? Wow, if they're new there is something messed up going on.

[stevedmc]

but comments from newly established accounts are bullshit.

Amen.

Edit: I partially retract my statement. I only agree with him when it comes to new accounts from new people such as theMonch.

[sztybel]

I'm definitely not new. Been on dmctalk for years and years. And, SamHill, this is a thread about discontent with Houston. There's not a particular topic we need to adhere to other than that.

[opethmike]

So Im clear, you're saying DanRC30 and sztybel are new? Wow, if they're new there is something messed up going on.

+1

Simply because the account has a low post count is no reason to dismiss the opinion. Particularly for known people in the community like Chris and Dan.

[Dracula]

I'm definitely not new. Been on dmctalk for years and years. And, SamHill, this is a thread about discontent with Houston. There's not a particular topic we need to adhere to other than that.

I knew the thread name suggestion I had was a good idea; it makes it somewhat less of a tangent thread and a good place for all DMCH-related discussion of dissatisfaction.

[Dracula]

My biggest gripe with DMCH is the lack of feedback that they listen to from owners and the general disregard for our legitimate complain. In a niche market, they should be listening to what we have to say and revising things to suit their customer's needs, not spending time creating fake accounts to post with to brag up their own cars and compliment their own products. If the products were really good, then someone else would have said something. The fact that James was willing to masquerade as Sonny V. itself shows that they're willing to lie to DeLorean owners to sell a product. That is not an honest business practice. We have numerous gripes about various parts and what has Houston done about these? I'll change my tune if they come out with a new dash and offer those who purchased a new one a credit equal to the purchase price towards the purchase of a replacement. I don't expect this to ever happen, though. Heck, if they want product testing, there are enough of us who drive our DeLoreans regularly as daily use cars that would be happy to do so and provide feedback, but that never comes up. If they had road-tested the ball joints and angle drives sufficiently, then they wouldn't be gripes. They'd have had an initial teething period, but they'd have saved a lot of face. If the folks at DMCH are reading this, how about considering starting a thread of parts and products you're considering releasing and testing the waters that way? I guess that asking your customers what they want might be a shocking change from your business plan, though.

While we're at it, I wish someone would post the entire "Sonny V." episode for all to read. That really belongs in this thread.

[SamHill]

Sorry, 1 post count to lodge a complaint aroused my suspicion. I apologize if I've had the pleasure already, I don't know everyone.

[DanRC30]

Sam, I'm far from new. I just don't post much. I've owned my car since 96. How long have you been around?


Ah, now it's about safety. Let me worry about my own safety, thanks. I normally don't say this, but comments from newly established accounts are bullshit. If you feel strongly enough about it, put your name to it.

[sean]

Sorry, 1 post count to lodge a complaint aroused my suspicion. I apologize if I've had the pleasure already, I don't know everyone.
Last edited by SamHill; Today at 11:50 AM. Reason: There are never sock puppet accounts, are there.

I just thought it funny you were calling out some of the oldest (not age) members as being newbs, makes me wonder how long you've been around.


While we're at it, I wish someone would post the entire "Sonny V." episode for all to read. That really belongs in this thread.

Please just go to the DML and search "Sonny V" There is a ton of story there.

[SamHill]

Sam, I'm far from new. I just don't post much.

DanRC30, please see my post above. If you post infrequently, I might not make the connection that I have read a prior post a few years ago from a Mr. RC30.


I just thought it funny you were calling out some of the oldest (not age) members as being newbs, makes me wonder how long you've been around.


Was it ha ha funny? Is tjd also an old member? Honest question. He may be from Dunmurry for all I know. I don't know the guy.

[sean]

Was it ha ha funny?

Naw, it was more, "Isnt this the kettle calling the pot black" funny simply because DanRC30 and sztybel have been around since as long as I can remember and i've been D-Nuts since '96. This is regardless of how much they post.

[Dracula]

Please just go to the DML and search "Sonny V" There is a ton of story there.

Okay. Taken directly from the DML; here's the DML's summation of the "Sonny V" incident:



On Nov 19, there was a message posted to the DML
signed by James Espey.

http://www.projectvixen.com/dmcnews-archive/msg10116.html

It was later pointed out to me by someone that this
message was sent from "sonnyvr2000". For some reason,
this message has been removed from the Yahoo archives.

Later in the day, a similar message was posted by
James:

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/message/46806

And, 3 more messages by Sonnyvr2000:

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/message/46798

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/message/46799

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/message/46800


All four of the messages sent by Sonnyvr2000 came from
the same IP address, an address that is in common with
posts made by James from DMCH.

No big deal, because Sonny said he was in Houston
getting work done on his car. It is possible he was
using a computer at DMCH to send those posts before he
returned to his home in Springfield, MO.

Searching the DML Yahoo archives, it became obvious
that most of the posts made by Sonnyvr2000 have been
removed! The only record of any posts made by this
person are in quoted responses to his posts. Why is
this?

The only one I found was post 39097, which came from
an IP address in Houston, TX. It also happens to be on
the same ISP as DMCH uses (rr.com). But Sonny claims
he lives in MO. I remember James once saying he was
from or had family in MO.

So, I took a look at some e-mail archives of the DML
from 6/15/2001 to 9/30/2004, and searched for all sent
by sonnyvr2000

DATE SUBJECT IP
7/24/03 Re: Stainless Steel Ill 24.173.4.228
8/5/03 windshield antenna 24.173.4.228
8/13/03 Monroes and Gabriels 24.173.4.228
8/20/03 100404 Wheel bearings ! 24.173.4.228
9/4/03 Cleaner/Sealer 24.173.4.228
10/16/03Re: Door struts and do 24.173.4.228
12/1/03 Who wears XXXL? 24.173.4.228
1/7/04 Refurbished Fascias 200.9.59.10
1/12/04 Permacast wheels? 24.173.4.228
2/22/04 New angle drive receiv 24.242.224.139
3/7/04 DMCH's performance eng 24.242.228.133
3/8/04 DMCH's performance eng 24.173.4.228
3/11/04 clutch release bearing 24.173.4.228
3/11/04 Exhaust note of DMCH E 24.173.4.228
3/29/04 angle drive update 24.173.4.228

I included the subjects so you can all see the content
of these messages in your own archives, or at
http://www.projectvixen.com because they have been
removed from the Yahoo archives. Please look at the
content and evaluate for yourself.

The bulk of the mail came from 24.173.4.228, which
also happens to be the same IP address most of James
Espey posts come from. Do a search of the Yahoo
archives for that address and you will see.

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/messagesearch?query=24.173.4.228

Furthermore (thanks Dave):

24.173.4.X (24.173.0.0/16) belongs to Roadrunner
(southeast). Roadrunner is available in MO, but only
in Kansas City, not Springfield.

24.242.224.139 and 24.242.228.133 both resolve DNS to
names with "houston.rr.com"

200.9.59.10 (200.9.48.0/20) belongs to Instituto
Costarricense de Electricidad y Telecom, based in San
Jose, Costa Rica

On 1/7/04 Sonny sent an email from 200.9.59.10, on the
same day James sent an email from 200.9.59.10 as well.

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/message/38076?source=1


Assuming Sonnyvr2000 is a real person, why is it that
his posts are all missing from the official Yahoo
archives? And he sure does spend an awful lot of time
at DMCH, Odd for a guy who lives 700 miles away in
Springfield, MO (?), and seems to know a lot about
DeLoreans. Almost as much as someone who works for a
DeLorean vendor.

But, he asked for shipping estimates to Farmington, MO
63640 which is over 800 miles from Humble, TX.

(look @ the quoted text at the bottom)
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/message/38079

I would conclude that SonnyV is someone at DMCH. But,
is SonnyV a real person?

In the past 2 weeks, a few members of the DML have
been talking about this topic off line. The purpose of
getting others involved before "going public" was to
verify the information to be correct, and make a fair
decision on how to proceed.

I feel the group was unbiased, and we wrestled with
the pros and cons on what action to take. We concluded
that someone at DMCH was likely posing as "Sonny", and
decided that it was wrong to condone this behavior by
allowing it to remain hidden/be erased and that no one
in the DeLorean community should allow such to go
unnoticed. Ultimately, we decided to let the community
see and think for themselves as to what, if anything,
should be done.

[SamHill]

Naw, it was more, "Isnt this the kettle calling the pot black" funny simply because DanRC30 and sztybel have been around since as long as I can remember and i've been D-Nuts since '96. This is regardless of how much they post.

Well if I don't take copious-bbs-soap-opera-Ed-Bernstein-database notes, it stands to reason I might not have instant recall of someone whom I have not personally met, and someone who admittedly posts infrequently. Sorry if you think that's unreasonable.

Here's how long I've been around: I've been around long enough to know that Sean sucks.

[DanRC30]

DanRC30, please see my post above. If you post infrequently, I might not make the connection that I have read a prior post a few years ago from a Mr. RC30.

Sam, I don't know who that is. If you check the DML archives, I've had this stance against DMCH (HOUSTON, they are definitely not DMC) for many many years now. Although profitable (very profitable), they just don't conduct business in a less than ethical manner in my opinion. I got tired of people without souls who would defend them to no end no matter how bad they are and the moderators rejecting posts because they were in James' back pocket. I know more than you can imagine and I just gave up because I have far better things to do. I am glad however that others have picked up the fight.

It amazes me that some people can sleep at night after the terrible things they do to others. James personally (partially) sabotaged the last Spring Social (at the Porsche dealer) I ran for the DMA when he spoke with Sally DeLorean (who I had booked as a guest) and told her she didn't have to show up and that it was just a "tech event". James will deny this, but I found out the truth. Sally was very sorry she listened to James as she was looking forward to the event.

Unless the majority of DeLorean owners unite and stand up for what's right, nothing will change. Best of luck with the fight guys...

[sean]

Here's how long I've been around: I've been around long enough to know that Sean sucks.

And that explains a lot!

[DMCVegas]

I think you just made their case. Thats a pretty ingenious way of marketing. In todays super fast, high speed, too much information -can't-handle---traffic world. DMCH has found a way to get their web site to the top of a google search list without the "DMC" or "DeLorean" text entering into it. Well done!

That can go either way actually, especially when it comes to the inherent nature of Search Engines that crawl the web. It works in conjunction with both keywords that are embedded into pages, as well as top search results.

Keywords are interesting as you can see on Craigslist. Search for "DeLorean" and you'll see totally unrelated results to the car simply because the poster included the key word you were searching for in their ad. Disney also had some serious problems with this in the past because most Adult web sites would have a legal disclaimer to protect themselves on their main page that was coded with simple HTML. If you clicked the link that stated you were of legal age to view the content within, you would go to the next welcome page inside of the site. However if you clicked the link that you were underage, it was linked to www.disney.com. As a result if you searched for "disney" on older web browsers, you'd like a list of porn sites instead.

Some of that is illegal of course when it comes to a web site that contains keywords imbedded into it of competitors sites in order to drive up said site in ranking for results. However it's really not needed anymore. With as many news sites and blogs that now just keep re-posting stories that contain the same information, or *misinformation*, it's not as though there would be an actual conspiracy by DMCH to confuse people about new builds, refurbs, or new from scratch cars. By the same token there also wouldn't have to be since *technically* even if their goal was to actually misinform anyone according to the interpretations here, they needn't do a thing since social media is doing it for them.

Now since this thread is about discontent, and also spans products, can someone link to some examples of the ball joints, as well as some pictures of the dashboards? If the dashes really are that bad, then I'd rather just take mine to an upholstery shop and get it recovered in vinyl. As well as with other parts and pieces, I'd like to know where to what the problems are, and if they need to be sourced out elsewhere.

[Dracula]

Now since this thread is about discontent, and also spans products, can someone link to some examples of the ball joints, as well as some pictures of the dashboards? If the dashes really are that bad, then I'd rather just take mine to an upholstery shop and get it recovered in vinyl. As well as with other parts and pieces, I'd like to know where to what the problems are, and if they need to be sourced out elsewhere.

I'd be glad to, however, the dashboard problems are glaring from in the car or at certain angles, but they don't photograph well because camera flash will wash them out. It's one of those things that you have to see in person to get; like the shine of the stainless or illuminated door sills.

[sztybel]

Now since this thread is about discontent, and also spans products, can someone link to some examples of the ball joints, as well as some pictures of the dashboards? If the dashes really are that bad, then I'd rather just take mine to an upholstery shop and get it recovered in vinyl. As well as with other parts and pieces, I'd like to know where to what the problems are, and if they need to be sourced out elsewhere.

There is an archived thread about the Houston dashboards (http://dmctalk.org/archive/index.php/t-1735.html?) in particular.

[DMCVegas]

I'd be glad to, however, the dashboard problems are glaring from in the car or at certain angles, but they don't photograph well because camera flash will wash them out. It's one of those things that you have to see in person to get; like the shine of the stainless or illuminated door sills.

Gotcha. That's a little disheartening to hear... But also makes me kinda happy too. I'd rather just change the interior colors of my car anyway to make it unique. I love the monotonous exterior appearance of the DeLorean which creates the idea that combines "rare exotic" with "standard issue" and gives it that utilitarian look. However the inside is a totally different story. That's where I like DeLoreans to be as unique as possible. It's just me. I love the Black and Tan interiors, but it's been done. I'm thinking green... And just like I don't have the heart to modify a new vehicle, I've no problem with a used vehicle. It's just this thing I have. And hearing that the dashboards aren't up to snuff gives me a bit more freedom here...



There is an archived thread about the Houston dashboards (http://dmctalk.org/archive/index.php/t-1735.html?) in particular.

Yikes! At least by reading that WelmoedJ was able to answer my question about the dashes and what their core material is made out of, and now I know I can recover it!. :thumbup:

Not a fan of the stock binnacle anyways, myself. So I'd prefer to get mine covered in vinyl or leather and have it stitched. And looking at these photos, I'll know where to tell them to stop the padding and material at. I also love the look of the "puffy" early interiors. Granted the amount of padding varies depending upon taste, as to the colors and patterns. But I really do like the look of a recovered dash versus stock...

http://www.distantvisions.net/Images/Cars/DeLorean81/DeLoreanDashInstalled3-w.jpg

[opethmike]

I like the 'puffy' look too; reminds me of the Lotus Esprit:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4022/5079201681_61536ba49d.jpg