Winter storage thread... post your opinions and theories here :)

[Jonathan]

I thought I'd post a winter storage thread since the last one likely died with the dot com site. There are many theories out there on how to store your car, to start or not to start during storage, drain gas or add fuel stabilizer, tarp underneath, air pressure in the tires, change fluids, etc., etc.

Here's a copy paste from my winterize list I try to adhere to each year:

- wash car, windex glass, vacuum carpets
- pour in fuel stabilizer and fill tank all the way
- over-pressurize tires (to tire manufacturer maximum)
- tarp or carpet for under car in garage
- carpet or Styrofoam for under wheels in garage
- moth balls on aluminum foil plates, dryer sheets??
- desiccant packs
- take out battery, put in basement on floor on piece of wood, hook up battery tender once per month
- plug exhaust tips with aluminum foil or steel wool
- fluids: engine oil, coolant, windshield washer fluid, AT fluid, brake fluid
- lubricate the door hinges, door latches, door locks and the hood and trunk latches
- DO NOT apply the parking brake
- Car cover

What other ideas do you guys have?

[DMCMW Dave]

My only counter-proposal would be to leave the gas tank as empty as possible. I've seen much more damage from full tanks than empty ones, and (especially in the US) I'd rather fire it up in the spring on fresh gas than have a tank of stale ethanol-gas to burn through.

I've never seen any proven huge advange to using stabilizer, at least over a 5-month period. I can tell someone has used it as the gas seems to be much less volatile and more "oily". I'm not sure why that's good.

[Marty]

I agree. I always leave the tank as empty as possible, then fill it with fresh fuel using a jerry can in the spring. I always use stabilizer and have never had a problem. It's cheap, so why not? Last winter I jacked my car up off the floor for the entire winter. Tires seemed to keep their air much better.
Good list!

[DeLorean]

I don't "store" mine, however it is parked in a garage and I do drive it in the winter, but only comes out during low or no salt periods, and washed after use.

[dmc4087]

End of summer
>> Park car in garage (no handbrake)

Start it up every few weeks, maybe move it forwards/backwards

Start of summer
>>Take car out for a good run

[dmcjohn]

Start it up every few weeks, maybe move it forwards/backwards



I usually don't bother starting it over the winter - but I do sometimes sit in it and make vroom vroom noises...

[DMCMW Dave]

Start it up every few weeks, maybe move it forwards/backwards


I think that does more harm that good. You can't get it really up to temperature just sitting there and then you'll have condensation issues in the engine and exhaust.

Moving it from time to time won't hurt, and is easier than lifting it off the tires.

[David T]

When you talk about storage you need to plan it for the length of storage intended. Unfortunately I have seen all too many cars (not just Deloreans) that were "parked" for a short term storage and years later the car is being "resurrected". There is a difference between parking (storing) for the Winter (less than 6 months) and long term storage (years). All this being said, The least that should be done is to remove the gas and the battery.
David Teitelbaum

[John U]

I put 1oz of motor oil in each cylinder of my BMW and crank the starter for a few seconds before putting it away for the winter....is this overkill?

As for filling up the fuel tank, the idea (in aviation anyway) is to keep condensation from building up in a tank that has some air in it...probably not a big deal in a plastic tank such as ours, but what about a metal tank?

John

[Nicholas R]

Honestly, I'd think the best way to make it through the winter is to drive it occasionally.

Still this thread is about storage. +1 what Dave said about fuel tank level. The reason you store a vehicle with a full tank of gas is because if it has a metal tank, condensation cannot form inside the tank that could cause rusting of the tank. Since our tanks are plastic there's no worry there. Instead, the biggest concern I think is in the saturating of the fuel pump boots causing them to degrade faster. Leaving the tank low keeps fuel off the boot through the winter.

[Jonathan]

Honestly, I'd think the best way to make it through the winter is to drive it occasionally.

Still this thread is about storage. +1 what Dave said about fuel tank level. The reason you store a vehicle with a full tank of gas is because if it has a metal tank, condensation cannot form inside the tank that could cause rusting of the tank. Since our tanks are plastic there's no worry there. Instead, the biggest concern I think is in the saturating of the fuel pump boots causing them to degrade faster. Leaving the tank low keeps fuel off the boot through the winter.

I like where you're going with this Nick. Okay, so help me out, I have my car very close to being put away for the season (the weather is steadily getting cold and miserable) and I happen to have it with only 1/4 tank or perhaps slightly less. Would it still be a good idea to put some fuel stabilizer in there with it? (with the level low as it is) I could add what I think is the right concentration and then go for a drive to mix it around. Also, I have probably enough left over from last year's bottle... does fuel stabilizer go bad, i.e expire? Or can I use this last bit up instead of finding a place to dispose of it?

[john 05141]

I winter-store my D from beginning of November (earlier if the roads are being sprayed with salt) until the end of March.

I too clean the car and vacuum it. I think also important is to clean the wheels very good. The brake dust should be aggressive or so I hear and starts to "eat" in the paint of the alloys.

I leave 1/4 in the tank, and I remove the spare tire. Just as little weight in the car as possible. I also remove the footwell carpets so the carpet underneath can breath better. also remove the bonnet carpet. I open both windows and have a car cover on it.

But than again, my D sleeps in my garage, where it is always a nice 12°C (or 55°F) even when it freezes very hard. So it vents the car because the car cover is very thin, and protects for dust only.

But why would someone cover or fill the tailpipes? Is this to prevent it gets lived in by some creatures?

Tires, once a week I puch the car forward one feet. One week later again, the other week backwards 1/2 foot,... just to prevent flat spots. I have been considering buying these anti-flat spot brackets but that is quite expensive.

I too start the engine once a month. I sit in it (I do not mind at all:smile:)and gently go from Idle to 2000RPM and back to idle to let the temp go to operational, activate the AC to keep that running and keep the engine at a comfortable temp. than I turn on the heater to dry the vents in the car. If there was no salt on the roads after at least 2 or 3 rainshowers I will take it for a 30 min. drive, but max. every 2 or 3 months.

John

[sean]

I like to take mine apart (http://dmctalk.org/album.php?albumid=1). :p

[Ron]

$.02

RE: Full/empty tank

The idea behind filling the tank is not whether it is metal so much as that you are greatly reducing the surface area of the fuel in contact with air.

Either way, you should mix per directions and run the engine to get the stabilizer throughout the system...

Some swear by it (marine apps) and some say it's worthless...but very few say it causes troubles...and it's relatively cheap...

lol@Sean

[Stainless]

Here's an interesting article that I found on Hagerty about preparing cars for winter storage. Take it for what it's worth.
http://www.hagerty.com/Hagerty-Online/How-To/Storing/All-articles/2011/11/01/Step-by-step-guide-to-winterizing-your-car?utm_source=ExactTarget&utm_medium=email&utm_term=&utm_content=Client&utm_campaign=Hagerty%20News-November

[DMC3165]

I was told for short term seasonal storage (several months) It's best to have the D's tank at 1/2 tank or less. The main reason is not letting the rubber boot sit in the gas unused for long period of time. Also it's best to use ethanol free gas to minimize water absorption if you can find any.

My winter ritual consists of 1/2 tank of 100 octane unleaded Cam2 with four ounces of marvel mystery oil. I don't use stabil or anything because I will generally start it and have to move it periodically and if the weather is ok I'll take it out on a weekend.
Also I read an article in Hagerty's about storing the car with fresh oil in the motor. The main reason had to do with the composition of the metals and contaminants in the older oil that will damage the crankshaft and bearings when restarted. Since I'm just about due for an oil change anyway I'll be doing that this winter.

[David T]

Follow the "To Drive or Not To Drive" thread. For "short term" storage, meaning less than a year and typically just several months during winter, remove the fuel and the battery, store indoors with a good car cover and blanket, keep anything from falling or otherwise damaging the car. Insure it.
All too often short-term storage becomes long-term storage. If the car is not properly prepared for long term storage it will be a lot more expensive to "wake" it up. Other things you can do before storing the car:
Fix all problems
Clean the car well
If the garage you are storing the car in gets rodents use mothballs under (not in) the car. Trickle charge the battery for 1 day each month.
David Teitelbaum

[Jonathan]

But why would someone cover or fill the tailpipes? Is this to prevent it gets lived in by some creatures?


Exactly John. For mice or rodents. I don't know how likely it is that they would climb up in there, but it's cheap insurance to stuff a little steel wool in there.

I settled on 1/8 tank of fuel with some stabilizer in it; my battery is out and gets charged once per month; floor mats are out as is just about everything else (removing the spare sounds like a good idea too); air pressure in the tires gets pumped up; bounce sheets inside to keep it fresh after it's been all vacuumed and wiped and cleaned; and I have some desiccant packs that I put in to suck out the moisture. Not sure how effective they are as I am in and out of it regularly doing winter projects, so the same reason I don't have my cover on it very often. And nothing gets stored above it or near it.

[David T]

I have not seen rodents getting into the tailpipes on a Delorean. They tend to go for the storage area in the front trunk where you store the jack, the front grill, the fuseblock area, and the heater box. If you do stick anything in the tailpipes stick a flag on it so you remember to remove it before you start the car. I also see the vent tube coming out of the charcoal canister that goes out the bottom of the pontoon get plugged up with insect debris. If you leave mothballs under the car that should keep the little critters away. Best if you could seal up all of the openings of the garage so they can't get near the car but that is not always possible.
David Teitelbaum

[David T]

For storage purposes it is best if you remove the battery. Especially if the car is subject to freezing temperatures. It gives you a chance to clean the battery terminals. I charge the battery 1 day each month. I keep it in the basement on a piece of wood. I also remove the gas from the tank. That gives me a chance to inspect the innards of the tank. And when you take the car out of storage you have a fully charged battery and a tank with fresh fuel in it ready to go (not stale gas mixed with stabilizer to make the fuel less volatile). Don't forget that the brake and clutch fluid should be changed every other year.
David Teitelbaum

[Michael]

For storage purposes it is best if you remove the battery. Especially if the car is subject to freezing temperatures. It gives you a chance to clean the battery terminals. I charge the battery 1 day each month. I keep it in the basement on a piece of wood. I also remove the gas from the tank. That gives me a chance to inspect the innards of the tank. And when you take the car out of storage you have a fully charged battery and a tank with fresh fuel in it ready to go (not stale gas mixed with stabilizer to make the fuel less volatile). Don't forget that the brake and clutch fluid should be changed every other year.
David Teitelbaum

I try to drive mine for a few miles at least once or twice a month during the winters just to keep everything fresh and lubricated. Even if the roads are salty I will back it out of the garage and let it idle for about 20-30 minutes, then pull it back in.

[David T]

If the car is not being used the best advice is to just park it and let it be. You cannot properly warm everything up and when you shut it down any moisture can cause things to rot. Do you run the A/C? That seal needs to be lubricated. The best advice is to just turn the compressor by hand once a month. In my area once the roads turn white the car should not be on the roads till the heavy rains in the Spring. They way they salt the roads nowadays there is so much salt it gets into the drinking water! It is a really big problem and is a major contributor to Hypertension. That's why so many parts on modern cars are now plastic.
David Teitelbaum

[Jonathan]

They way they salt the roads nowadays there is so much salt it gets into the drinking water! It is a really big problem and is a major contributor to Hypertension.
David Teitelbaum

David,

May I ask you what it is that is in the salt or about the salt that is getting into the water supply and affecting hypertension?

[LEVY]

If the car is not being used the best advice is to just park it and let it be. You cannot properly warm everything up and when you shut it down any moisture can cause things to rot. Do you run the A/C? That seal needs to be lubricated. The best advice is to just turn the compressor by hand once a month. In my area once the roads turn white the car should not be on the roads till the heavy rains in the Spring. They way they salt the roads nowadays there is so much salt it gets into the drinking water! It is a really big problem and is a major contributor to Hypertension. That's why so many parts on modern cars are now plastic.
David Teitelbaum

The use of plastic on modern vehicles have nothing to do with the use of salt on the roads. Regarding batteries, no need to store on top of a piece of wood, that is a myth not longer valid, of course you can store your battery on top of a piece wood, concrete, plastic or on top of a pizza if you like.


LEVY

[David T]

The use of plastic is also to reduce the weight of the vehicle but it is also corrosion-proof. That is one reason the wheel wells and a lot of the parts underneath are plastic. As for the salt, the sodium gets into the water supply and increases the sodium levels. Many studies have shown drinking water with high sodium levels leads to increased blood pressure. Myth or not, it can't hurt to keep the battery on a piece of wood. Cover the car well. Also make sure nothing can fall against the car. There are many insurance claims because things fell on cars with covers. Don't stack things on the car. The weight can damage and bend things. The car should be emptied of everything and the keys put in a safe place. Make sure the insurance is in force for the period it is in storage (at least the comprehensive). It can't hurt to roll the car a few feet by hand once in a while. It is also a good idea to turn the A/C compressor by hand. To take the car out of storage first clean it. Check the fluids and tire pressures. Install the battery and put some gas in and you should be good to go.
David Teitelbaum

[LEVY]

The use of plastic is also to reduce the weight of the vehicle but it is also corrosion-proof. That is one reason the wheel wells and a lot of the parts underneath are plastic. As for the salt, the sodium gets into the water supply and increases the sodium levels. Many studies have shown drinking water with high sodium levels leads to increased blood pressure. Myth or not, it can't hurt to keep the battery on a piece of wood. Cover the car well. Also make sure nothing can fall against the car. There are many insurance claims because things fell on cars with covers. Don't stack things on the car. The weight can damage and bend things. The car should be emptied of everything and the keys put in a safe place. Make sure the insurance is in force for the period it is in storage (at least the comprehensive). It can't hurt to roll the car a few feet by hand once in a while. It is also a good idea to turn the A/C compressor by hand. To take the car out of storage first clean it. Check the fluids and tire pressures. Install the battery and put some gas in and you should be good to go.
David Teitelbaum



I've seen a lot of older vehicles with "wheel wells" as you call them intact but with badly rusted frames, fenders, hoods and body parts in general, those parts still made of metal, maybe you can tell the manufacturers to change to plastic.

Main reason to use plastics is to lower weight and cost.

I'm not a doctor so, I give you the benefit of doubt on the health issue.

LEVY

[Jonathan]

As for the salt, the sodium gets into the water supply and increases the sodium levels. Many studies have shown drinking water with high sodium levels leads to increased blood pressure.
David Teitelbaum

Ok. I was wondering if it was sodium related that you were referencing. The reason I asked is because in some areas or communities, they put calcium chloride on the roads and not sodium chloride. They are both "salts" but very different. The calcium chloride has slightly different properties and ranges in which it will melt ice on the road than does sodium chloride. Of course, the calcium chloride would not lead to high incidences of sodium in your drinking water supply. I thought perhaps you might have meant there were trace amounts of arsenic or lead in the salt that was leading to the health problems.

If you've ever heard someone tell you not to put road salt in your softener tank at home, it is for this reason. Softeners get regenerated by exchanging the sodium with the calcium on the resin beads from the sodium chloride salt. Then as hard water passes through the softener, the sodium on the resin exchanges slowly out with the calcium in your water and "softens" it. What you get is quite a bit of sodium in your drinking water, but not the hardness (calcium and magnesium). If you were to try and regenerate the softener with calcium chloride ice melt salt, the water in your home would just stay hard (and it would continue to be "hard" to make a lather with your soap).

They often advise not to drink soft water because of all that extra sodium, and definitely don't feed it to your dog. Most installers will plumb in a hard water bypass line to your sink but let the soft water go to your toilets and shower. The sodium/calcium salt misconception is pretty common, so it would at least be worth looking a bit deeper into the hypertension issues in your community to see if there is something else at play and not just "road salt."

[DMC5180]

Hey Jonathan are you a Culligan man! Interesting Info even if way Off Topic. I always considered traditional Granulated road salt as Sodium Chloride (The cheap stuff) They are starting use a Liquid Calcium chloride (more expensive) on bridges and overpasses as a preventive measure. They also use the liquid on Gravel roads to keep the dust down. Apparently it Draws moisture from the air. Think cool moist air in early morning hours.

[David T]

Very few towns use Calcium Chloride. It is very expensive compared to Sodium Chloride (table salt). You have to be careful what salt you use in a softener. Some salts can contain traces of other elements that can harm you, like Arsenic. This is a complicated subject and for those that are interested there are better places to get more information. Suffice it to say you should not drive your car in the winter when they put chemicals on the road to melt the snow and ice. They are corrosive to the metal parts of your car. And in large amounts they are not good for people either! A lot of towns are now moving towards spraying a brine solution before the precipitation to try to reduce the total amount of salt used. Calcium Chloride is gentler on the concrete so in the long run even though it is more expensive it doesn't dissolve the concrete requiring expensive repairs.
David Teitelbaum

[Jonathan]

Haha, yeah Dennis, more or less. Culligan was bought by USFIlter but then soon after bought by Siemens. I've spent just about my entire 15 year career after schooling working in water treatment. Not usually the size of the home softener stuff, but often the chemistry stays the same even as it gets large. Most of what I supported was high purity process water. Water that would feed the boilers making steam at power plants, or the ultrapure water stuff used at semi-conductor manufacturers. Most of the potable water treatment technologies are more concerned with bacteria and pathogens than mineral content. You can't let an E-coli problem hurt someone, just like you can't let silica plate out on the end of a turbine blade spinning it's 300 tonnes at 1,800 RPM. Neither of those end well.

I think you are right about it's uses. And David is right about it being expensive. I read they use it on roads for dust control as much as they do for ice melting. Keep in mind the volumes we are talking about though. If you buy a 50 lb bag for your softener, it pales in comparison to the roads crew filling up a dump truck several times a day to spread on the highway.

And like you said about impurities, whether it be arsenic or something else. Think of it this way, if you buy a bag of salt that says it is 99% pure, what that means is that out of every 100 lb, 99 of it is salt and 1 lb is not. That 1 lb is not going to typically be all arsenic, but often it is sand or other filler. Every 100 lb of 99% salt you put in your softener tank means you might be scooping out 1 lb of sand and dirt off the bottom every so often. 99.9% is significantly purer, yet now every 1,000 lb of salt means 1 lb of dirt.

We often thought of it this way at an Intel plant or other chip maker. We could purify and measure sodium in the water down to about 50 parts per trillion. That's pretty clean. In fact it is so clean, the water actually starts to dissociate as it can't hold itself together. The H+ and OH- breaks away to a certain degree and that gives you your theoretical limit to how pure water can get. And that extremely pure water can be quite aggressive. If you think road salt will eat away your car frame, try 18 MegOhm water. The piping we used at the semi-conductor plants was as pure as you can buy. It was called PVDF. And very smooth on the inside. So smooth that there are no edges for any particulate to settle. That pipe once assembled in a spool would often be $1,000 USD per foot for the 200 mm diameter stuff. And why did it need to be so pure? Because with all the washing and etching when they make chips, if you have any impurities in the water as it evaporates off the silicone wafer, those deposits remain (because they don't evaporate) and often short out the chip in the quality control checks. So instead of 250 Pentium chips on a single wafer yielding 90-something % success rates like they do now, it would be 10% success and 90% in the garbage can. The old "water treatment industry wive's tale" was that when the water treatment technology got good enough to keep 90% of the chips instead of throwing away 90%, bingo, home computers became affordable. Not sure how much truth there is to that story, but I'm sticking with it. Class dismissed.