E85 fuel vs K-Jet - is there a track record yet?

[Rich]

The California legislature and governor recently approved E15 gasoline for distribution here in anticipation of E15 fuels getting a final technical blessing from the gurus at CARB. That blessing may come sometime next year.

It looks like Calif. is among the last U.S. states to get to this stage.

Question: Has E15 been in normal use elsewhere for some time? If so, is there an indication that it plays well with 40+ year old DeLorean fuel systems? E10, sold here for many years, seems to be relatively harmless so far.

I understand there's a difference between any authorities allowing the sale of E15 fuel and such fuel being made and distributed anywhere in high volumes which is why I ask. I'm curious about long term fuel system compatibility/reliability when E15 is used in DeLoreans (or any other classic) running the original K-Jet, not curious about other aspects of E15.

I'm looking for data about our particular cars running this new fuel blend, not theories.

If there's already a DMCTalk thread about this question just point me to it. My search came up empty.

[dn010]

E85 or E15? Your title says 85.

E15 has been in use in Florida for years.

I used to run E15 in my car. I can't speak for K-jet since I am EFI. What I can tell you is that it pretty much trashed my fuel system. It turned anything rubber into mush (fuel pump boot, hoses, injector orings, etc.). It ate through my fuel pressure regulator. It also went bad within a month even with stabil, but I also don't drive daily. What a nightmare. I had to scrub my tank and replace everything rubber that it touched. No way in hell I will ever use that stuff again. I can't imagine what it would do to old orings in a fuel distributor. Now, I only run ethanol free fuel.

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure EPA has a suggested year range the stuff should be used in, I think it is 2001+.

[Josh]

E85 or E15? Your title says 85.

E15 has been in use in Florida for years.

I used to run E15 in my car. I can't speak for K-jet since I am EFI. What I can tell you is that it pretty much trashed my fuel system. It turned anything rubber into mush (fuel pump boot, hoses, injector orings, etc.). It ate through my fuel pressure regulator. It also went bad within a month even with stabil, but I also don't drive daily. What a nightmare. I had to scrub my tank and replace everything rubber that it touched. No way in hell I will ever use that stuff again. I can't imagine what it would do to old orings in a fuel distributor. Now, I only run ethanol free fuel.

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure EPA has a suggested year range the stuff should be used in, I think it is 2001+.

The reason for the year range recommendation (besides most cars having steel & nylon fuel lines by then) is being several years into OBD2 by then (1996) and having stock ecus that can adjust their fuel trims for the richer stoic of E15.

Most gas stations sell their regular and mid grade with E10, this has been true for many years. More and more putting it in premium as well. So most deloreans are already running this (E10) fuel. E15 is not a far stretch, however will have the same fuel system issues, but accelerated, as a rarely driven delorean has.

I have also found that most any rubber EFI hoses (even if stated ethanol safe) are indeed not. You would most commonly see these up front at the pump. The rest of the car is hardlines and nylon cored stainless steel braided lines in the engine bay. You can get away with nylon cored lines with milder ethanol mixes, but to run full E85 you should be running PTFE cored lines.

To get into the numbers, you technically should adjust your dwell for E15, but its likely adjusted for E10 already.

Stoich
E0 (no ethanol) - 14.7 : 1
E10 - 14.1 : 1
E15 - 13.8 : 1
E85 - 9.7 : 1

There are benefits to Ethanol, I run E85 in my car. But my setup is not KJet and forced induction.
- Higher octane, E85 is well over 100. This allows you to advance your timing under boost which means more power.
- Runs cooler, decreases cylinder temperatures.

Once again this need not apply to a Kjet car though.

[Helirich]

E85 or E15? Your title says 85.

E15 has been in use in Florida for years.

I used to run E15 in my car. I can't speak for K-jet since I am EFI. What I can tell you is that it pretty much trashed my fuel system. It turned anything rubber into mush (fuel pump boot, hoses, injector orings, etc.). It ate through my fuel pressure regulator. It also went bad within a month even with stabil, but I also don't drive daily. What a nightmare. I had to scrub my tank and replace everything rubber that it touched. No way in hell I will ever use that stuff again. I can't imagine what it would do to old orings in a fuel distributor. Now, I only run ethanol free fuel.

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure EPA has a suggested year range the stuff should be used in, I think it is 2001+.

Wow, I have used a tank here and there when I couldn?t get non ethanol. I need to stop that.

[Rich]

Good catch, thank you.

Yes, this question is only about E15, not about E85. Major goof on my part there.

If the moderators can help with editing this thread's title or tell me how to fix it that would be great. The correct thread title could be the one used in this very post.



E85 or E15? Your title says 85.

E15 has been in use in Florida for years.

[dn010]

Wow, I have used a tank here and there when I couldn?t get non ethanol. I need to stop that.


I think you'd be fine using it now and then. For me it wasn't overnight, it was prolonged usage (years).

[Bitsyncmaster]

I have also found that most any rubber EFI hoses (even if stated ethanol safe) are indeed not. You would most commonly see these up front at the pump. The rest of the car is hardlines and nylon cored stainless steel braided lines in the engine bay. You can get away with nylon cored lines with milder ethanol mixes, but to run full E85 you should be running PTFE cored lines.

What about this rubber hose?

https://www.gates.com/us/en/fluid-power/engine-hose/fuel-line-hose.p.4219-000000-000003.html

[Josh]

What about this rubber hose?

https://www.gates.com/us/en/fluid-power/engine-hose/fuel-line-hose.p.4219-000000-000003.html

Its turned soft for me with use with E10.

[Helirich]

I think you'd be fine using it now and then. For me it wasn't overnight, it was prolonged usage (years).

Yea, it probably is ok on a trip to fill and run it out. What I?m afraid of is I have 3/4 tank of ethanol right now and I wasn?t planning on driving it right away. I think I?ll drain it and fill it with some treated non ethanol gas. I can use the ethanol gas in my lawn mower.

[dn010]

Yea, it probably is ok on a trip to fill and run it out. What I?m afraid of is I have 3/4 tank of ethanol right now and I wasn?t planning on driving it right away. I think I?ll drain it and fill it with some treated non ethanol gas. I can use the ethanol gas in my lawn mower.

If it will sit a while, I would get that fuel out of it. I wouldn't even use it in small engines, those inevitably sit for a while too and the same thing will happen, the fuel will separate and you'll end up removing the carbs to figure out why the hell the thing won't start.

On the plus side, if it's not that old you can just pump it out of one car and into one of your newer modern cars if you have the means to do so. Other good uses: cleaning/degreasing parts in small batches, also makes a great weed killer and even kills bamboo chutes too.

[Helirich]

If it will sit a while, I would get that fuel out of it. I wouldn't even use it in small engines, those inevitably sit for a while too and the same thing will happen, the fuel will separate and you'll end up removing the carbs to figure out why the hell the thing won't start.

On the plus side, if it's not that old you can just pump it out of one car and into one of your newer modern cars if you have the means to do so. Other good uses: cleaning/degreasing parts in small batches, also makes a great weed killer and even kills bamboo chutes too.

Of course, my truck is a diesel. I can dump it in my wife?s truck. I?m going to drain it and fill it with non-ethanol and then drive it some so I get it through the system.

[Helirich]

Of course, my truck is a diesel. I can dump it in my wife?s truck. I?m going to drain it and fill it with non-ethanol and then drive it some so I get it through the system.

So I drained about 9 gallons and put about 7 gallons of non-ethanol back in. (That?s all I had on hand.) I was thinking of jumping the rpm thing to make the pump run and mix up the fuel. I still probably need to run the car some to get the fuel in the injectors.

[Chris4099]

I think people get way too freaked out over ethanol blended fuel. Out here we've had it in our winter mix since the 90s if I'm not mistaken. Then 18 years ago, went year round E10. So my D has only had E10 since then. About 20 years ago, I did replace my fuel pump and other tank components. I did eliminate the rubber pickup hose, but otherwise still have the stock style boot/pump setup with attached rubber hoses. So even after several decades of E10 exposure, they seem perfectly fine. I still have the same injectors, WUR and distributer as well (with factory mixture plug still installed). I did burn through a few PPR O-rings though, but I think that was because the vendor didn't use good ones. Last ones I got have been fine for the last 10ish years.

I fully admit I've never had E15 though and would want to see how other older cars handle it before having it in mine. But for E10, it's just not an issue for most.

[Rich]

I fully admit I've never had E15 though and would want to see how other older cars handle it before having it in mine. But for E10, it's just not an issue for most.

Thanks for your positive report about E10 in an Oregon DeLorean. It mirrors my experience in ours since E10 became the default here in California.

Like you I would like to see how well E15 has worked in older cars, specifically DeLoreans with original PRV setups, because it sounds like E15 may start showing up in California.

That was the reason for the initial posting (setting aside that I gave it the wrong title).

If owners elsewhere have been using E15 in their DeLoreans for years with no issues besides another drop in fuel economy beyond the one due to E10 then the question is answered.

Nothing negative about E15 and fuel system durability from the DMCTalk community? Great!