Roof structure and doors

[DMCNY]

I have some questions about the metal roof structure and the doors.

I've adjusted the stricker pins the best I can get them. I can get the doors to open and close decent, but the alignment (mostly on drivers side) has always bothered me.

I was trying more stricker pin adjustment tonight and decided to start with taking the pins completely out. When I do that the screw heads for the rear door latches hit the plastic on the door jams. (both sides)

I started to wonder if the metal roof structure was coming unglued causing some of the problem, so I pulled the plastic vent cover off the rear to look. The structure is definitely coming unglued. So I pulled the T-panel to try and get a better look. The driver side part of the structure is even twisting.

I know these can be bolted back down, but where is the best place to put the bolts? Should I put them where the dimples are?

Do you think this will help with the door alignment problem?

I'll put some pics up to show the wierd gap in the drivers door and the twist and lifting/ungluing of the roof structure.

Any advise would be greatly appreciated.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t165/andygarand/015-3.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t165/andygarand/016-3.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t165/andygarand/017-3.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t165/andygarand/018-2.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t165/andygarand/011-5.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t165/andygarand/012-2.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t165/andygarand/020-2.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t165/andygarand/004-5.jpg

[Mark D]

I had my roof structure re-secured by Dave at DMCMW about a two years ago. I can't say that it did anything for the door alignment, but it did allow the louver to open easier without rubbing on the T-panel. This was the main reason why I had my car fixed.

I think the door hinges bolt through the fiberglass and aren't just attached to the metal bracket so re-securing the bracket probably wont' do much for your particular issue. The doors really don't look all that bad judging by the heights of the creases in the door itself. You may just need to remove your black rub strip on the rear quarter and adjust it to match the door... maybe adjust that rub strip on the door just behind the door handle a bit too.

I'd still recommend re-securing the roof bracket anyway though seeing as yours is starting to let go. The process involves removing both torsion bars to unload the roof support so it can be pushed back down and secured in place.

Here are a few pics of the process.

Finishing screen removed:
http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7331&d=1323990782

Removing torsion bar retaining brackets (Be sure to tap the hex bit into the torsion bars so they're seated in as far as they can go to avoid stripping the hex out)
http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7332&d=1323990846

Holding the torsion bar so the retaining bracket can be removed and the bar unloaded.
http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7337&d=1323991231

Once both torsion bars are out long socket extensions are used to push the metal roof support back down into position.
http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7335&d=1323991139

Inspecting torsion bars for signs of wear.
http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7333&d=1323991045

Four screws installed to secure the upper suppt bracket.
http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7334&d=1323991093

Reinstalling the torsion bars. Definitely a 2 person job. Note how big that cheater bar is on the socket so it's easy to hold the spring tension of the torsion bar.
http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7336&d=1323991188

Completed.
http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7338&d=1323991276

[Jeff K]

You car has the same issue as mine, vin 16245.

It's not only the back, it's the front where the window meets the roof top. Basically your roof line in the front is a little bit low, tilting the doors forward. They have a Jig at DMCCA for this and my car needs this done too. The headliner has to come out, T-top piece , windshield and doors have to come off. A royal pain. Then the metal where it meets the fiberglass in front has to be re-glued and should be screwed in.

I was waiting for windshields to be readily available, which they pretty much are now. I might start this in a month or two.

[DMCTek]

Hi Andy,
I agree with Mark (nice photos our roof pull on your car!), your roof structure should be addressed but will not likely do much for your door fit.
Over time doors tend to sag rearward as yours have. Check to see your windshield is secure (remove windshield trim and push outward at top from inside, look for separation). This is structural to the car and if the glue has come undone your roof will tend to sag at the front. The result is doors shifting back.

[DMCMW Dave]

I think the door hinges bolt through the fiberglass and aren't just attached to the metal bracket so re-securing the bracket probably wont' do much for your particular issue.


True. . . .

[Mark D]

Mark (nice photos our roof pull on your car!)

Thanks! You guys did a great job and it cost a lot less than I expected it to. I like to work on my car myself whenever I can but this was definitely a job better left to the pros.

Great info on the windshield too... is this something common that you see on a lot of cars that come in?

[DMCNY]

I checked the windshield like you suggested and pushed out on it all across the top and don't see any kind of seperation.

Nothing seems to be loose anywhere, even when opening and closing the doors there is almost no movement in the roof panel at all. Even at the rear where it's seperating.

Is it absolutely nessesary to remove the torsion bars to bolt the panel down?

Can I not drill holes through the top of the panel right through the fiberglass to the inside and use nuts and bolts to draw the panel down?

[DMCTek]

I checked the windshield like you suggested and pushed out on it all across the top and don't see any kind of seperation.

Nothing seems to be loose anywhere, even when opening and closing the doors there is almost no movement in the roof panel at all. Even at the rear where it's seperating.

Is it absolutely nessesary to remove the torsion bars to bolt the panel down?

Can I not drill holes through the top of the panel right through the fiberglass to the inside and use nuts and bolts to draw the panel down?

Yes drilling and bolting through the top of the panel is a acceptable fix. You will not need to remove the torsion bars but will need to remove the headliner. Make sure to seal the bolts in with RTV.

[jmpdmc]

Here is a link to Derek's blog which mentions how he fixed this problem: http://www.deloreanreborn.com/index.php?blogid=1&archive=2006-10
Might come in handy.



Jeff

[DMCNY]

Done!

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t165/andygarand/001-7.jpg

Thanks for all the help.

Even though this wasn't the driver side door gap, it was defintely something that needed to be done and helped get the torsion bars off the rear door hinges, too!

[DniveK]

From what I understand, the torsion bars can be removed easily after that T panel is out. Moving the door upward past where it would normaly strike the T panel, relieves all the tension on the bar and it can be removed. Anyone ever do this?

[Elvis]

it does relieve a lot of force from the bar but it's far from being loose !

I'd say there is 50 to 70% of the force / torque still on the bar.

[DMCMW Dave]

From what I understand, the torsion bars can be removed easily after that T panel is out. Moving the door upward past where it would normaly strike the T panel, relieves all the tension on the bar and it can be removed. Anyone ever do this?

Absolutely not. With the door straight up there is still at least 45 degrees of twist in the bar.

[David T]

Because the torsion bars are rare and expensive it is not a good idea to try any short-cuts like that even if you could. Besides, without the proper tools to take them out, how do you expect to get them back in? And there is always the personal danger of hurting yourself. It ain't worth it! I did know of someone (Claude Landi) taking the doors off without removing the torsion bars. He admitted doing it because he did not have the proper tools and it damaged the doors.
David Teitelbaum

[opethmike]

I did know of someone (Claude Landi) taking the doors off without removing the torsion bars. He admitted doing it because he did not have the proper tools and it damaged the doors.
David Teitelbaum

http://www.avatarhosting.net/pics/12714/picardfacepalm.jpg

[Bitsyncmaster]

Absolutely not. With the door straight up there is still at least 45 degrees of twist in the bar.

On my car with the doors a little past vertical, I could release the all the bar tension and the bracket (still on) would just stop short of the rear window. So I would guess it's more like 30-40 degrees of twist still in the bar. Of course it all depends on which spline your set on and how far you open the door.

I had to do this to get the bracket off. It would not move with someone holding the bar. I guess the hex tool put a little twist on the splines.

I did install new brackets after I got them off.

[DMCNY]

It took me over 5 hrs. of messing around with the door pins to get them just right to where the door would open and close proper and the alignment would be corrected.

All that for appox. 1/8". But I'm happy and the door works good. :)

(Before)

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t165/andygarand/018-2.jpg

(After)

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t165/andygarand/001-8.jpg

(Before)

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t165/andygarand/017-3.jpg

(After)

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t165/andygarand/004-6.jpg

(Before)

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t165/andygarand/016-3.jpg

(After)

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t165/andygarand/005-7.jpg

[dmc6960]

Did you adjust the stainless panels after you got the door aligned?

When aligning the door, we're you adjusting just the strikers or anything else as well?

[DMCNY]

Did you adjust the stainless panels after you got the door aligned?

When aligning the door, we're you adjusting just the strikers or anything else as well?

The only adjustments I made were to the stikers. All the time was spent on moving the strikers around, most times only about 1mm at a time.

[David T]

If you have a bar where the end is damaged and the allen doesn't fit right or the end is split, it would make sense to try anything since the bar is trash anyway. I have had many where the anchor brackets are difficult to remove. The way I do it is to use 2 screwdrivers and work it back-and-forth watching that I do NOT move the torsion bar out of the front hinge. I have not run into a bracket that could not be removed but I admit, sometimes you think you will not be able to do it! After removal I file the splines in the bracket and on the torsion bar enough so the bracket will slide smoothly on and off. Another tip might be to tap threads into the anchor bracket so in the future you can "jack" it off if you have to but I file the splines. It also helps to have a LONG bar and a patient helper.
David Teitelbaum

[opethmike]

so in the future you can "jack" it off

Advise re-phrasing :)

[Bitsyncmaster]

Advise re-phrasing :)

:hysterical:

At least he did not say "jerk"

[Elvis]

you guys are laughing - but ever had a torsion bar not coming out of the hinge ?

7356

[Elvis]

Opening the door all the way up reduces the torque on the torsion bar a lot and makes it
MUCH easier to work on it. It's also less force on the allen key.

And as you can see - it's always good to have a case of beer in the garage :-)

[opethmike]

I laugh because I made a haha.

[jawn101]

I laugh because I made a haha.

You've recommended jacking quite a few things in the last hour or so, Mike... :)

[Bitsyncmaster]

When I first got my car, the passenger door would fly open and bounce at the top. So at my first tech session the crew tried to back off my T bar. They could not do it because the bracket would not come off.

When I got home, I removed the T panel, propped the door past vertical, Removed all the tension on the bar. Then the bracket just slid right off with no effort.

So it has to be, the tool holding the bar is distorting the splines just enough to make them bind.

[Ron]

You've recommended jacking quite a few things in the last hour or so, Mike... :)Considering he has been working on his MegaSquirt for weeks, I'd guess he..um....Nevermind.

[opethmike]

Considering he has been working on his MegaSquirt for weeks, I'd guess he..um....Nevermind.

I'll have you know that I finished MegaSquirting weeks ago! :)

[outatym2001]

When I first got my car, the passenger door would fly open and bounce at the top. So at my first tech session the crew tried to back off my T bar. They could not do it because the bracket would not come off.

When I got home, I removed the T panel, propped the door past vertical, Removed all the tension on the bar. Then the bracket just slid right off with no effort.

So it has to be, the tool holding the bar is distorting the splines just enough to make them bind.

Bitsyncmaster,
Man I hope what you accomplished can solve my problem. During a Pacific Northwest DeLorean Club tech session we found my driver side torsion bar was never going to let go of that stupid bracket with the splines in it. Therefore we could not attempt a torsion bar adjustment. At the next PNDC tech session I’ll try what you did.
Just started a thread, Interior of Roof Box Rusted
http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?2572-Interior-of-Roof-Box-Rusted

[Bitsyncmaster]

Bitsyncmaster,
Man I hope what you accomplished can solve my problem. During a Pacific Northwest DeLorean Club tech session we found my driver side torsion bar was never going to let go of that stupid bracket with the splines in it. Therefore we could not attempt a torsion bar adjustment. At the next PNDC tech session I’ll try what you did.
Just started a thread, Interior of Roof Box Rusted
http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?2572-Interior-of-Roof-Box-Rusted

The only pain is removing the outer door seal where it is glued to the T panel. I have yet to glue it back. It's been about 5 years now. So I guess my inner seal keeps the rain out.

[David T]

At DMA tech sessions we had some cars where we could not get the bracket loose. Because of time constraints and wanting to do as many cars as possible we could not spend a long time on any one car where we had trouble. I also do not like doing this with a lot of spectators around. Not because I don't want anyone seeing what is done, there is an element of danger even when experienced people do this procedure. On some cars if we found the bolts holding the bracket stripped we would not remove the bracket either. Everyone has to be able to go home and you can never have enough tools if you get into that kind of trouble. We were not prepared to retap or refasten an anchor bracket. At your home you have all the time to spend that you need. If the bracket gives you trouble a little filing can make a big difference for next time. Try it in several positions and make sure it fits nice. Carefully inspect the allen and if you see a crack you will never have the bracket slide easily. Always make sure the allen key is FULLY inserted to prevent distorting the end making it hard to remove the bracket. If the allen key doesn't fit snugly that is a big danger signal.
David Teitelbaum