Window Stuck Down

[Jimmycxc]

I have a weird problem that hopefully someone has some insight to. My passenger side window has never fully worked properly. The problem is that it will go down 90% of the time, but only go up about 1% of the time. Right now it is half way down.

I had the switch and the motor replaced in the past by PJ Grady. It worked for a little bit and then I noticed it started having trouble going up again, so I just stopped using it.

I have the upper door panel off and the window is on track. The motor works in the down position, but will not work going up. Any ideas?

[sdg3205]

I have a weird problem that hopefully someone has some insight to. My passenger side window has never fully worked properly. The problem is that it will go down 90% of the time, but only go up about 1% of the time. Right now it is half way down.

I had the switch and the motor replaced in the past by PJ Grady. It worked for a little bit and then I noticed it started having trouble going up again, so I just stopped using it.

I have the upper door panel off and the window is on track. The motor works in the down position, but will not work going up. Any ideas?

Are you getting voltage at the motor with the switch in the up position? Can you hear it engaging/struggling when you press the switch?

[David T]

The most likely problem will be the switch. Try swapping them. Next would be a problem with the wiring. Last, least likely would be a problem with the motor. If the window can't move easily and jams the motor won't have enough power to move the window up.
David Teitelbaum

[sdg3205]

The most likely problem will be the switch. Try swapping them. Next would be a problem with the wiring. Last, least likely would be a problem with the motor. If the window can't move easily and jams the motor won't have enough power to move the window up.
David Teitelbaum

What Dave T. said.

Also, just as a thought - if the window is on track but not lubricated you could be seeing a lot of friction. When I did my my doors last year I was blown away at the difference a little white lithium grease made on the tracks. Now they move like a cold knife through hot butter. haha.

Not a bad thing to do while you're in there anyway.

[Jimmycxc]

Thanks Guys. I don't hear the window motor at all when I push the up button. I've tried swapping the switches, but still nothing. Strange, right?

Anyone going to the DeLorean Mid Atlantic social on January 14th?

[Elvis]

Did you try to drive it directly with two wires and the battery ??

so you can close out wiring, switches connectors...



But most likely the drive is broken. The brass gears tend to break and some more stuff.
After you're sure that the electrical is OK, get the A1 window drives and never ever
think about it again.

[Rich]

OK, just keep going along the troubleshooting path David T outlined. Look for voltage at the motor to see if the problem is upstream (wiring, or other supply issue) or downstream (motor/regulator/mechanical).

[DMC5180]

Did Rob Grady replace the actuator assembly or just the motor? Also you could have a poor connection in the passenger door roof connector. If you can, do a continuity test between the switch connector and motor connector.

[Elvis]

hm...the window goes down but not up.
so it can be the connector in the roof ?


:shocked:

[DMCMW Dave]

hm...the window goes down but not up.
so it can be the connector in the roof ?
:shocked:

No, it can't. Up and down use the same two wires, the polarity is reversed at the switch.

The door locks on the other hand have separate lock and unlock wires.

[DMC5180]

No, it can't. Up and down use the same two wires, the polarity is reversed at the switch.

The door locks on the other hand have separate lock and unlock wires.

I am aware of the 2 wires and reversing polarity and figured I would be called out. I was looking at it from the standpoint of high resistance on one wire. Thinking that a window goes down easier than up. Which could be more of factor on a Full sized window. High resistance does funny things in these old cars.

Fwiw, the passenger window in my daily driver has, on random occasion, does not wanted to go down. I attribute it to a dead spot developing in the motor. I've had the panel off once to inspect things and in the process manually moved the motor slightly and everything worked again for several months. This could be a possibility with this D window motor. I would look at the condition of the connector terminals at the switch. Since I've seen these connectors with visual signs of heat melting it is a possibility. The fact that he has done the the switch swap, would technically rule out the switch. Odds of two bad switches with the same fault characteristic Very HIGH. You would also think the the simple process of moving the connector to swap switches, would eliminate the connection intermittence. Although, with the flexibility of the center console you could get a scenario of pushing down on the switch helps make a connection on the connector plug and going the other way causes it to loose connection. WOW I'am really over analyzing this :headscratch:

He has not stated whether the Replaced window motor was a NEW Improved A-1 version. I can't imagine Rob Grady not replacing the whole assembly. Even on a Concours car since the item is not accessible to judge.

[Jimmycxc]

I believe Rob replaced the motor and the actuator. I don't know, however, if it was the A-1 or if he replaced it with a stock assembly.

I certainly don't claim to be anything close to an expert mechanic....I'm hoping someone might help me take a look at the DMA social in two weeks.

[DMC5180]

I believe Rob replaced the motor and the actuator. I don't know, however, if it was the A-1 or if he replaced it with a stock assembly.

I certainly don't claim to be anything close to an expert mechanic....I'm hoping someone might help me take a look at the DMA social in two weeks.

Since you said Actuator I would have to believe it is an upgraded A-1 assembly. No one recommends replacing poorly designed OEM with another OEM unit, unless you insisted on it due to cost reasons and would likely be a USED one. If you have the Sales invoice of that job it should be very recognizable by the P/N including a "G" in it. This means it's a non-OEM part or a Grady Improved unit. In this case an A-1 unit since they are the only aftermarket supplier of these assemblies.

The Failure of the A-1 units is virtually 0% (At least I have not heard of one failing yet) That does not mean the Motor, which is universally used in window regulators of all types cannot go bad. I'm not sure if the Original Design was BOSCH or not. But it has been copied by so many ASIAN mfgr's it's hard to know what it being used nowadays.

Can you post a photo of you Switch harness connectors "unplugged"? Have you tried making a couple By-pass jumpers for the harness connector. They are 3/16 spades available at most Auto Parts stores or RadioShack. Connect ( Slate/Blue - Black) and Touch (Slate/Red to Lt Green/White). If nothing happens, Swap the (Black and Lt. Green Positions. If you get movement one direction then switch the wires again and see if goes the other direction.

[Jimmycxc]

I will double check the invoice when I get home today.

Unfortunately, I have done some modification to the car where the switches are not easily taken out and replaced as in most cars. (My D is now a BTTF DeLorean) It will take me a bit to do so. When I pull on the switches, only the top portion is removed...no access to the wiring. It looks like the base of the switch is epoxied on.

I had tried swapping the switches before I had the conversion performed and it did nothing. I happened to get the window up by chance one day and then never touched the switch again. When the conversion was taking place, the truck driver accidentally hit the switch and it would not go back up.

I have not tried making jumpers, but once I get the switches and wiring out, I will try.

At this point, its been 12 years that the passenger window has not worked. I kind of accepted that it will never work and even if it does, I'd still be weary to use it. I'd rather just have the window up and remove the switch all together.

[DMC5180]

12 years INOP! It would have been good to mention that in the first post. I was under the impression the Grady work was 2-3 years ago and that the switch swap was recent. After rereading post #1 I see that you said, in the (past). It is still likely you have an A-1 regulator assembly though.

[Jimmycxc]

Sorry, let me further explain. I had the car for about 12 years. The window never quite worked right. So about 5 years ago, I sent the car to Grady and he did about 6k in restoration, including the passenger window motor. It worked for about a year, but then started developing the same problem as before where it would take several tries to get the window back up. When that started, I tried swapping the switches and that did not help, so I said screw it, I just won't use the window.

I got home late last night so I forgot to check if he replaced more than just the motor. I will have to check tonight.

Is there a possibility it could be a ground issue? Where are the grounds for the motor located?

[Elvis]

if it works in one direction, then why would it be ground ?
or does it go down veeeeeeeery slowly ?

how good are you in reading schematics ?
do you need one ?

I expect it's the switch. just because you swapped it 5 years ago
doesn't confirm it is good.

If you have the door panel off - please perform the test I worte earlier,
so you can close out that it is the motor and mechanical stuff. (I honestly
doubt that the A1 stuff is broken)

this is simple electrical stuff, no high tech at all. I couldn't live without
being able to open the windows.
You get every help you need, but in return - please do some tests and
don't rely on 5 year old information.
Pics are also very helpful for us to understand your situation.
And I love to see time machines :-)

[DMCMW Dave]

... the switch. Odds of two bad switches with the same fault characteristic Very HIGH. .

Not really - I see cars with two bad switches all the time, and they often fail in the same way.

[Jimmycxc]

I'll try running the tests you suggested this weekend.

76077608760976107611

I'll try and take some pictures of the door panel as well.

I do appreciate all the wealth of knowledge that everyone has on this board. I would definitely be lost without it.

[Ron]

Not really - I see cars with two bad switches all the time, and they often fail in the same way.Generally I would agree with this, but in this case it would mean the drivers side wasn't working and he used its switch to test with anyway...? (don't say it ;-)

[DMCMW Dave]

Generally I would agree with this, but in this case it would mean the drivers side wasn't working and he used its switch to test with anyway...? (don't say it ;-) Say what, "Intermittent"?


Another thought - Look for melted wiring on the switch plugs. That will do it too. The shell melts and then the contacts don't "make" well.

[Ron]

Say what, "Intermittent"?
:hysterical:...No, more like, "You'd be surprised at the silly things I've seen people do", or such...I'm far from thinking you are silly enough to think the switch is intermittent while only failing on the passenger side.

[Elvis]

Thanks for the pics of the time machine :-)
I'd love to have one, too :-)))

I bet it's the switch...

it's not only an electrical thing, no they can be mounted so that it's hard to
push them the full way - I tried to reinforce mine with a cable tie and had that
phenomenon, too.
As I knew the switch is fine, I just pushed a bit harder and - it worked.

[Jimmycxc]

So I looked at my receipt from Grady and he replaced the motor and the switches on my car in Dec 2006. I did not see the actuator listed. Could the switches have gone bad that quick? Makes me think it might be a connect somewhere as stated above. I'll have to run some of the tests this weekend when I have more time. Will keep everyone updated.

[Jimmycxc]

Can you post a photo of you Switch harness connectors "unplugged"? Have you tried making a couple By-pass jumpers for the harness connector. They are 3/16 spades available at most Auto Parts stores or RadioShack. Connect ( Slate/Blue - Black) and Touch (Slate/Red to Lt Green/White). If nothing happens, Swap the (Black and Lt. Green Positions. If you get movement one direction then switch the wires again and see if goes the other direction.

Here's a picture of the wiring harness. I'll try doing what you suggested and let you know how it turns out.7674

[Ron]

Schematic shows LightGreen-White, Black, Slate-Purple, and unlike the photo a Slate-Red?
Unless there are VIN differences in the wiring, it looks like a repair using the wrong wire or color to me??

[Jimmycxc]

Schematic shows LightGreen-White, Black, Slate-Purple, and unlike the photo a Slate-Red?
Unless there are VIN differences in the wiring, it looks like a repair using the wrong wire or color to me??

Its weird that the window worked before with this wiring. I ran into a wife that "needed" some things done around the house so I'll have to wait until tonight to try the jumpers.

[Ron]

Schematic here (http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=101&d=1306264526)

Check BOTH switches after doing "chores" or sparks will fly!

[DMC5180]

Schematic shows LightGreen-White, Black, Slate-Purple, and unlike the photo a Slate-Red?
Unless there are VIN differences in the wiring, it looks like a repair using the wrong wire or color to me??

The photo shows Slate/Purple and Slate/Green not Slate/Red or Slate/Blue. This definitely makes me wonder if the harness plug might have been replaced as a used "pigtail" assembly from a parts car. you might need to dig a little deeper into the harness and look for splices.

I compared 2 different DMC schematics (ZILLA version) and (Colorized version)

They Show:

RIGHT window motor wires: Slate/Red and Slate/Blue.
LEFT window motor wires : Slate/Purple and Slate/Green.

Something looks fishy in that photo.

[Ron]

RIGHT window motor wires: Slate/Red and Slate/Blue.
LEFT window motor wires : Slate/Purple and Slate/Green.
This is correct.
...same as schematic in link above...with both having a Black and a LightGreen-White.




Something looks fishy in that photo.
+1
The colors are bad in the photo for me. I don't see a slate-red (?looks black?).
But what concerns me is that there are two LG-White wires...and the green on them look different.
I'm guessing pulling the other switch will clear that part up...

[David T]

Just because the window will work in one direction does not mean the wiring is OK. There is a case where if you run it in a direction where one wire is shorted to ground the circuit will still work but when you try running the other way (when the plus side goes into the grounded wire) the motor will not run. Since this has been INOP for a VERY long time you cannot take anything for granted. My first test would be to apply power and ground directly to the motor and make sure at least that much is OK. If it works then at that point it is an easy test to check the wiring and the switch.
David Teitelbaum

[Ron]

Looked at photo on another monitor:
1. Slate-Purple
2. Black
3. LightGreen-White
4. LightGreen-White, OR, Slate-Green, with the Slate being a lot lighter than on the top wire, and if so, should go to the LEFT=Drivers side...

Need clear photos of BOTH switches!

=======
+1 David
...but it would blow the fuse in one direction if one wire was shorted.
Do you see a slate-red on your monitor?

[DMC5180]

I'm leaning toward a USED (LEFT) Harness connector w/lead wires being installed then labeled as RIGHT. I would look for a bad Wire Splice that may be Intermittent. This is very plausible considering the work may have been done at Robs shop. He has Spare parts cars to cut connectors from.

[Ron]

I'm leaning toward a USED (LEFT) Harness connector w/lead wires being installed then labeled as RIGHT. I would look for a bad Wire Splice that may be Intermittent. This is very plausible considering the work may have been done at Robs shop. He has Spare parts cars to cut connectors from.Althought I'm using yet another monitor and still don't see red on any wires, I can see someone doing a "wrong" harness swap and a bad splice. Intermittent with or without a mechanical problem that don't make a sound is a toss up to me....

Again, jumping the motor right off of the battery will tell the most....

[Jimmycxc]

Sorry for the picture quality.

From the top to the bottom, these are the wire colors:
Slate with purple stripe
Black
Green with white stripe
Slate with green stripe

No red wire anywhere. I will pry up the driver side switch as well tonight.

[David T]

=======
+1 David
...but it would blow the fuse in one direction if one wire was shorted.
Do you see a slate-red on your monitor?[/QUOTE]

Depends. It might melt the switches first! Fuse 11 powers this circuit, it is a large fuse (30A) and a lot of things can melt before you blow that fuse! It is an intermittent circuit and if the window doesn't move you probably are not going to hold the switch down long enough to blow the fuse. If you ever looked inside the window switch you would see 30A would melt that thing quickly! If the motor moves one way it is unlikely it is bad but it is possible (the motor can be grounded on one side of the windings) maybe the door was full of water at one time? You have to start narrowing down the list of possible causes. Open the door up and start with the motor.
David Teitelbaum

[Jimmycxc]

Here's a picture of the driver side switch. As it happens, now neither of the windows appear to be working. I checked the fuse, but that is still in tact.7701

[Ron]

The wires going to the switch plugs are backwards from what they are marked. That should be the Right=Passenger side.

Are you not comfortable with jumping to the slate wires straight off of the battery???

[Jimmycxc]

The wires going to the switch plugs are backwards from what they are marked. That should be the Right=Passenger side.

Are you not comfortable with jumping to the slate wires straight off of the battery???

Not entirely comfortable....well, not entirely sure how to do so.

[Ron]

Quick a dirty way- Make sure battery is charged. Unplug both switches. Get two long wires at least as large as the switch wires (jumper cables will work). Connect one end of the cables to the battery. Connect either cable to either slate wire on one plug. Briefly touch the other cable to the other slate wire. The motor should run one way (unless its all the way or you have a short). Reverse the cables and the motor should run the other way.
Repeat the whole process with the other switch's plug.
(Expect a spark..just don't hold it there if the motor don't run!)

EDIT: You should run one wire through a fuse just to be safe...and if you use jumper cables you'll have to use a couple of short wires to poke into the back side of the plug, of coarse.

Ask if I'm unclear or ??? ask. Otherwise, DO IT-- NOW! -- BUT TRY AT OWN RISK :deviltail:

[Jimmycxc]

Alrighty.....will try tonight.

[Jimmycxc]

Got it!! I hooked up the motor to the battery using jumper cables and a jumper wire. Window is up and I think I found the short in the wire to boot.

Thank you everyone for your help.

[DMC5180]

Got it!! I hooked up the motor to the battery using jumper cables and a jumper wire. Window is up and I think I found the short in the wire to boot.

Thank you everyone for your help.

In the wire to boot? HUH. :hmm:

[Iznodmad]

In the wire to boot? HUH. :hmm:

Just a figure of speech probably. "to boot" equals "as well".