Tail light boards and LEDs

[micmak]

OK, Just about to order new tail light boards. I wondered if you can get LEDs for them or is it better to go with the traditional incandescents. I remember reading a while back that the LEDs didn't light up as brightly or as quickly which could be a problem especially for the brake lights. Is this still an issue? I looked for posts addressing this, but I couldn’t find anything that really answered this definitively. So, LEDs or incandescents?

......Mike......

[Bitsyncmaster]

You miss read that LEDs don't light up quickly. It is the incandescent that light up slow.

These days the LEDs are just as bright or brighter than incandescent. It's all in getting the correct unit. Ours need a lot of side facing LEDs to use the reflectors in the tail lights.

[dmc6960]

A point of much debate. One of the issues with LEDs are not related to the board, but the housing. The tail light housings are designed for an incandescent filament bulb. While there have been some improvements, I've yet to see an LED bulb that can accurately enough recreate the light pattern of an incandescent. Without proper recreation, the light distribution will not satisfactorily reflect in the housing.

Then again, I have extremely high standards with regards to drop-in LED replacements.

I also have my own idea for building a 1107 LED bulb which would meet my stringent requirements.

[micmak]

So is there a kit or a set of satisfactory LEDs available from any of the vendors, for the brakes, indicators, reverse lights, and tail lights?

......Mike......

[Ozzie]

Mike, I've been running LEDs on the taillights on our D now for over 7 months w/o incident. They are fast, bright, and draw less current than the incandescent versions. I've documented this at my blog here: Link (http://delorean2109.blogspot.com/2011/07/going-100-leds-on-your-car-is-good-idea.html)
I am not aware of any kits for this from the vendors, but they are readily available, but vary in price and probably quality/life. I've recently converted to LEDs on our other 80's car, with equal success.

[micmak]

Holy smokes Ozzie! You REALLY did a lot of work on this didn't you? Excellent write up. :thumbup: Well done!
I wondered about the flasher relay, and you confirmed my concerns in your blog that I will need to replace that relay too. I think I will go ahead and get PJ Grady's boards first of all. My existing boards are tired, worn and very unreliable. Then I will do as you did which was gradually replace all the bulbs over time. I am not going to go crazy and make an urgent project out of it. I will replace the board, and then over the next few months, step by step I will replace the bulbs. I have "bookmarked" your blog, and I expect I will be referring back to it many times over the next few months.

Thanks Ozzie!

......Mike......

[Ozzie]

Glad it assisted.
Thanks for the feedback.

Hope you can make it to DCS 2012 in Orlando to meet up, and for the "live" version of that posting.

[orbitron3000]

Mike, I've been running LEDs on the taillights on our D now for over 7 months w/o incident. They are fast, bright, and draw less current than the incandescent versions. I've documented this at my blog here: Link (http://delorean2109.blogspot.com/2011/07/going-100-leds-on-your-car-is-good-idea.html)
I am not aware of any kits for this from the vendors, but they are readily available, but vary in price and probably quality/life. I've recently converted to LEDs on our other 80's car, with equal success.

+1

I have used this guide to install a battery of LEDs on my car, and I've been running them for probably 3-4 months with no major problems at all. They're bright, instant on, and all around awesome.

[Farrar]

These are my LED brake lights.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoMqQx-SB_U

And these are my LED turn signal and side marker lights.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhwLUmKlNj4

It can be done.

For the 1156 brake light bulbs, I chose the tallest unit that would fit, with the most number of side-facing LEDs. I think it turned out pretty well -- and they're quite visible in daylight.

You can tell that the amber 1156s and 1157s that I bought are forward-facing, but I wanted the brightest available and wasn't that concerned with filling up the reflector housing, especially on the front.

[DeloreanJoshQ]

For the 1156 brake light bulbs, I chose the tallest unit that would fit, with the most number of side-facing LEDs. I think it turned out pretty well -- and they're quite visible in daylight.

What is the tallest unit that will fit? How many SMDs?

Looks Great Farrar!

[Farrar]

What is the tallest unit that will fit? How many SMDs?

Looks Great Farrar!

Thanks, Josh! This was probably two years ago so I can't remember. I remember just putting a small ruler in through the light hole, then viewing the dimensions of various bulbs online. I know for a fact there are brighter units than the ones I use available now... so whatever you get will probably be superior. Just shop carefully and do your homework, as if I needed to remind you. ;)

[ccurzio]

Ozzie's writeup is spot-on. I used his recommendations for all of the exterior bulbs on my DeLorean (sans headlights obviously) and they look and work great.

I did some of the interior bulbs too (everything except inside the binnacle) and the only problem I ran into was the glovebox bulb. The "replacement replacements" don't work, unfortunately.

[Ozzie]

Ozzie's writeup is spot-on. I used his recommendations for all of the exterior bulbs on my DeLorean (sans headlights obviously) and they look and work great.

I did some of the interior bulbs too (everything except inside the binnacle) and the only problem I ran into was the glovebox bulb. The "replacement replacements" don't work, unfortunately.

Thanks for the feedback, appreciated.

Yeah, my initial write up had a glovebox LED bulb that didn't work for this application (was only for 9V - either my mistake or the spec changed). Since then forum member Cory W. pointed out a better alternative, and E10 LED:
http://www1.dealextreme.com/productimages/sku_51359_1_small.jpg

I've since also acquired that LED and it does fit and work great (relatively very bright); the blog posting was also updated to reflect that change. You can find these on eBay as "E10 LED" ...or, I have observed that they are listed for use in model railroad applications, so call your local hobby shops, as they may carry them as well.

[Cory W]

I read Ozzie's blog while investigating LEDs for my car, and I honestly don't remember finding or pointing this light out :) Doesn't mean I didn't do it, but are you sure it was me?

I have that light, though, lying in wait for when I uncover and prep the car for the new season.

[ccurzio]

Thanks for the feedback, appreciated.

Yeah, my initial write up had a glovebox LED bulb that didn't work for this application (was only for 9V - either my mistake or the spec changed). Since then forum member Cory W. pointed out a better alternative, and E10 LED:
http://www1.dealextreme.com/productimages/sku_51359_1_small.jpg

I've since also acquired that LED and it does fit and work great (relatively very bright); the blog posting was also updated to reflect that change. You can find these on eBay as "E10 LED" ...or, I have observed that they are listed for use in model railroad applications, so call your local hobby shops, as they may carry them as well.

That's actually the "replacement replacement" I was referring to. Didn't work for me. :(

[Ozzie]

That's actually the "replacement replacement" I was referring to. Didn't work for me. :(

:hmm:
Really, as I said it fit and works fine on my car.
What was the issue fit?

[ccurzio]

:hmm:
Really, as I said it fit and works fine on my car.
What was the issue fit?

No, the bulb fits fine as far as I can tell. It just doesn't light up.

[Ozzie]

No, the bulb fits fine as far as I can tell. It just doesn't light up.

If you put back the incandescent one, and it lights up, you may have bad bulb from the get go. If it the incandescent doesn't light up, the wiring on the socket could have come loose which is easy for this to occur.

...or, are you sure the LED one is threaded all the way in? For this one LED, I found that it just couldn't be changed through the open glove box as it wasn't long enough to be able to fingertip grasp, to thread it into the socket. Instead I had to remove the cover off the socket, unscrew the socket ring from underneath, then pull the socket out just under the bottom of the dash and thread the LED bulb all the way in. Putting it all back together got me a bright LED in that spot.

[justlooking]

OK, Just about to order new tail light boards. I wondered if you can get LEDs for them or is it better to go with the traditional incandescents. I remember reading a while back that the LEDs didn't light up as brightly or as quickly which could be a problem especially for the brake lights. Is this still an issue? I looked for posts addressing this, but I couldn’t find anything that really answered this definitively. So, LEDs or incandescents?

......Mike......

Just wondering where you're going to get new tail light boards? Rob Grady no longer makes them.

[john 05141]

Last winter Welmoed and I replaced the regular blinkers to LED. (Welmoest takes all the credit for the design and research here) It was not as easy as one would think, especially if you want your front sidemarkers to play along. Welmoed was kind enough to help me install them after he did this to hir car first. If the sidemarkers are not involved, it is much easier.
I was driving in front of Welmoed, and they are not as bright as the normal bulbs. You have to compare 2 cars and in daylight. At night it will certainly look OK. No doubt you can see them, but they should be brighter to my opinion.
I have been thinking to modify the tail light boards so 2 LED's can be installed per board for the blinkers. That might solve the problem. The front blinker will be more difficult.

John

[micmak]

Just wondering where you're going to get new tail light boards? Rob Grady no longer makes them.

Yes you are correct they are no longer available. They may become available in the future, but at the moment there are no plans for them. So I bought the regular boards from DMC Midwest. My originals have lasted 30 years, so I should have no problems with replacement NOS boards for years and years. That's good enough for me.

........Mike........

[Domi]

What about the LED in the daylight?
Are they okay? Can you see them?

[Elvis]

That's a good question.
This is why they are not allowed over here or need a special E-something number.

That chinese stuff is cheap an looks nice, but how long will it last ? ( I mean really
last ? not on the paper !!!!)
What do you expect to improve compared to regular bulbs ?

That litte more current you need when blinking ? But instead having the problem with
the relay that blinks faster due to the lower current as it thinks a bulb is dead ?
How do you solve it ? with a parallel resistor to burn the current as heat instead of
using it as light ? Or did somebody take the relay apart and modified it ?

[micmak]

What about the LED in the daylight?
Are they okay? Can you see them?

I just installed the boards and put regular bulbs in for now. My plan is to gradually replace them step by step with LEDs over the next few months. But to be honest it is not a priority for me. Realistically I never drive at night unless I get delayed at an evening show n shine and it gets dark before I get home. The brake and indicators are only on for a few seconds at a time, so from a power consumption viewpoint, I will not see too much of a difference. I like the idea of LEDs but it is not important enough to me to go running out to buy a bunch of LED bulbs.

......Mike......

[Tillsy]

Holy smokes Ozzie! You REALLY did a lot of work on this didn't you? Excellent write up. :thumbup: Well done!

Hey Ozzie I echo that compliment - I read your blog entry last year but was just hunting for it again this evening (in particular to re-confirm your recommendation of superbrightleds.com) and discovered you are a member here, so a big thank you for that outstanding write-up!

[David T]

A couple of things to keep in mind as you convert to LED's. They do consume a lot less current and they do not heat and damage the plastic housings like incandescent. You do have to modify the blinker circuits to make it flash. The brake lights should be brighter than the tail lights. If you modified the front markers to blink you will have to rewire to make it work. Polarity is very important, and LED will NOT work if connected the wrong way. It doesn't pay to replace any bulbs that are not used continuously (warning lights come to mind). Do NOT change the bulb for the alternator warning light. Some places you can't fit an LED bulb, like the engine bay light. The BEST thing about LED's (certainly not the price!) is that they last a LOT longer than incandescent but they don't like vibration. In exterior applications you should use some silicone gel to prevent corrosion. Especially on the marker lights. There is no replacement for the bulbs in the hazard switch and the headlight switch (at least not yet). Start with the bulbs in the doors and courtesy lights so you can show the car with the doors open and not kill the battery.
David Teitelbaum

[jawn101]

David - there are LED replacement lamps for the headlight and hazard switches, and you can fit LEDs in the engine bay and trunk lights. I and others have done all 4 of those! Ozzie's blog details which model goes where.

I would not *personally* recommend going LED in your side markers though. I tried several different types in there and none really provided enough light, those reflectors just aren't built to handle the directional light from an LED in my opinion. They work and are visible in the dead of night, for sure. But at dawn or dusk, they're sort of lost in the ambient light.

I just re-read Ozzie's blog post on the topic for yucks and noticed there's not really any details on performing the required modifications to make the LED tail lamps and front directional indicators work. Has anyone done a real step-by-step on that process?

[Bitsyncmaster]

There are ways to make the side LEDs blink with your signal lights. Welmod had done it with a relay. I have done it with a logic gate and MOSFET.

The side lights don't have a reflector. Even the incandesent bulbs will only light the center.

[jawn101]

There are ways to make the side LEDs blink with your signal lights. Welmod had done it with a relay. I have done it with a logic gate and MOSFET.

The side lights don't have a reflector. Even the incandesent bulbs will only light the center.

Maybe I misunderstood a previous post then - don't you have to make a wiring change to allow the blinkers in the front (amber signals under the headlights in the fascia) to function with LEDs? Even if you leave the side markers out of the equation?

[Bitsyncmaster]

Maybe I misunderstood a previous post then - don't you have to make a wiring change to allow the blinkers in the front (amber signals under the headlights in the fascia) to function with LEDs? Even if you leave the side markers out of the equation?

No wiring change is needed to use LEDs for the signal lights. You just have to replace the OEM blinker unit with a new one for driving LEDs. The sell for about $15 at auto parts stores.

[jawn101]

No wiring change is needed to use LEDs for the signal lights. You just have to replace the OEM blinker unit with a new one for driving LEDs. The sell for about $15 at auto parts stores.

I gotcha. Thanks for clearing it up for me Dave. :)

[David T]

You do have to replace the flasher relay to get the LEDs to flash but you lose a feature. When you have the incandescent bulbs and one burns out in a flasher circuit the flasher fast-blinks to warn you of a burnt out bulb. You do not have that with LEDs and a different blinker relay. The good thing is LED's don't burn out so you don't lose much. On the wiring mod I was referring to the one where you make the side markers blink. That won't work with LEDs so you have to undo that mod. I was not aware that there is a bulb for the hazard and headlights and ones that will fit the engine light. Someone should make up a list of the bulbs and suppliers. Before replacing with LEDs you should make sure all of the lights are working properly so if something goes wrong at least you know it WAS working before you touched it!
David Teitelbaum

[Ozzie]

Hey Ozzie I echo that compliment - I read your blog entry last year but was just hunting for it again this evening (in particular to re-confirm your recommendation of superbrightleds.com) and discovered you are a member here, so a big thank you for that outstanding write-up!

Thanks! Appreciate the feedback, glad it was helpful.



....I would not *personally* recommend going LED in your side markers though. I tried several different types in there and none really provided enough light, those reflectors just aren't built to handle the directional light from an LED in my opinion. They work and are visible in the dead of night, for sure. But at dawn or dusk, they're sort of lost in the ambient light.

For sure, these are the most challenging as functional replacements, due to the available volume; however, don't discount LEDs yet, they get brighter and cheaper every year. I am happy with the ones that I used, as documented in the blog, they are plenty bright at night and I can't really complain about them at the dawn/dusk condition you mention - but probably because I never really negatively observed that condition.




...I just re-read Ozzie's blog post on the topic for yucks and noticed there's not really any details on performing the required modifications to make the LED tail lamps and front directional indicators work. Has anyone done a real step-by-step on that process?


Yup, my blog documented a direct replacement to the existing OEM bulbs/wiring, so I did not cover the side light blinking mod. As Dave has written above, Welmoed really figured out a good solution for that.


Shameless DCS 2012 plug:
Hey reminder to everyone, I will be covering the LED conversion topic at DCS on Saturday (06/16). I just came back from Vegas from "Lightfair 2012" which covered the latest (and relevant) information on LED technologies, direct from the manufacturers (the top 5 global players in that industry), that I'd like to share at this presentation. Additionally I am actually flying into to DCS2012, directly from China, from a similar show in Shanghai. This technology is moving so fast that the same manufacturer presentation from only a few years ago are now obsolete!

In any case, my presentation will be less about what body contortions are required to replace your dash lights with LEDs, but more about the specific replacement LEDs and the technology behind them so as to make you a more informed consumer for LEDs for your car (and for other products actually). I am also planning to bring a comparative example of LEDs and Incandescent bulbs, as seen through the D's taillight lens.

[jawn101]

Ozzie - have you given any more thought or research to your rear directional bulb choice? In your blog you mentioned that the rear amber lamps looked kinda of weird and white may have been a better choice. Did you test that out? How do you feel about them now that some time has passed? Do you have any video/photos of the amber lamp in the amber housing?

[Ozzie]

Ozzie - have you given any more thought or research to your rear directional bulb choice? In your blog you mentioned that the rear amber lamps looked kinda of weird and white may have been a better choice. Did you test that out? How do you feel about them now that some time has passed? Do you have any video/photos of the amber lamp in the amber housing?

lol. I forgot that I wrote that. ...which means I guess that I learned to live with the amber ones.

LED experts like to paraphrase: "A photon is a terrible thing to waste", because they go to great lengths (in process and innovation) to achieve maximum illumination, from little power, from these tiny critters known as LEDs. So when you put a white LED behind an amber (or any other color) lens, you are actually filtering away of lot of the LED's potential; thus, the recommendation is to use the same color LED as the lens to maximize the LEDs full potential. ...but that is actually easier said than done, because what are the chances that, as an example, an amber LED will match an amber lens exactly.

So, yes, I went with an an amber LED on the rear directionals and at some angles it doesn't look as amber as stock. Nothing to be alarmed about, nor illegal, just different. I suppose if it was really a problem, you could get a much higher lumens white-ish LED, to blow out more amber through the lens.

In any case, I plan to demonstrate this effect at the presentation, so you can judge for yourself (btw: photography of LEDs and lenses is very tricky and possibly even deceptive, so this is really something to see in person by just trying it out).

[jawn101]

I figured as much. I got it in my head to try this all out, so I just ordered a whole mess of LEDs on eBay and will convert my whole taillight assemblies and front blinkers as soon as they arrive. If it all looks and works well I will upgrade the brake lamps to the nicer ones from Superbright, although since you wrote your blog post the prices have dropped dramatically on eBay. I got 18 LED SMD tower bulbs - 6 red 1156, 2 amber 1156, 2 amber 1157, and 2 white 1156 as well as 2 white E10 lamps (the only interior bulb I hadn't done in LED was the glovebox, because frankly I forgot it was there) for under $45 including shipping.

The tower bulbs came from eBay seller 'fushiaini', because he/she had the same bulb in all the colors I wanted, had enough in stock, and had free shipping.

The E10 lamps came from eBay seller 'e_store4u0406' because frankly it was the first SMD E10 bulb that came up when I searched, and they were all basically 3 bucks for a pair.

The parts are coming from who knows where (ostensibly Hong Kong) so it may take a while for them to arrive, but I will post my impressions when they do!

[Ozzie]

I figured as much. I got it in my head to try this all out, so I just ordered a whole mess of LEDs on eBay and will convert my whole taillight assemblies and front blinkers as soon as they arrive. If it all looks and works well I will upgrade the brake lamps to the nicer ones from Superbright, although since you wrote your blog post the prices have dropped dramatically on eBay. I got 18 LED SMD tower bulbs - 6 red 1156, 2 amber 1156, 2 amber 1157, and 2 white 1156 as well as 2 white E10 lamps (the only interior bulb I hadn't done in LED was the glovebox, because frankly I forgot it was there) for under $45 including shipping.

Cool. Don't forget to replace the relay as well (under dash, by steering column), for those blinkers to work properly with LEDs.

[jawn101]

Cool. Don't forget to replace the relay as well (under dash, by steering column), for those blinkers to work properly with LEDs.

Yep, no worries there. My original one disintegrated long ago and when I bought a new one I got the LED one just in case.

[Bitsyncmaster]

The problem with the rear amber directional signals is the reflector is very shallow. I had the same problem so I installed many LEDs into the plastic.

[DeLorean03]

Cool. Don't forget to replace the relay as well (under dash, by steering column), for those blinkers to work properly with LEDs.

Hey Ozzie,

I assume you have to replace all 4 flashers/taillights (2 flashers in front, 2 taillights in back) when installing the new LED flasher relay to see the results. I put in LEDs in just the taillights (last year) and got no response, so I'm assuming you have to both the fronts and the backs with LEDs before you see the circuit working as it should.

[Ozzie]

Hey Ozzie,

I assume you have to replace all 4 flashers/taillights (2 flashers in front, 2 taillights in back) when installing the new LED flasher relay to see the results. I put in LEDs in just the taillights (last year) and got no response, so I'm assuming you have to both the fronts and the backs with LEDs before you see the circuit working as it should.

As soon as you put one LED in either front or back indicators, you need the new relay. The new relay is compatible with both incandescent and LED bulbs. The stock relay is stuck in the late 70's looking for incandescent bulbs only.

[DeLorean03]

Gotcha,

So you think I could run LEDs in front for the running lights and incads in the back for the taillights and all would be good? I may or may not put LEDs in. I dunno - doesn't seem like a huge deal to me. Brake, running, and reverse - absolutely. Running lights in front..yeah... I can see the need to cut the heat down. Tailights: meh. But if I have to do both at once.....might as well ;).

[Ozzie]

Gotcha,

So you think I could run LEDs in front for the running lights and incads in the back for the taillights and all would be good? I may or may not put LEDs in. I dunno - doesn't seem like a huge deal to me. Brake, running, and reverse - absolutely. Running lights in front..yeah... I can see the need to cut the heat down. Tailights: meh. But if I have to do both at once.....might as well ;).

I haven't tried it, but I don't see why it would not work to mix them.

If you mean by "tailights" the indicators, there isn't a burning justification to replace them with LEDs. I will say though that when the incandescent indicators were flashing, I used see the needle on the Voltage gauge dip in rhythm with the flashing. With LEDs that effect is hardly noticeable, due to the reduced load on the system.

[Bitsyncmaster]

The only bulbs I kept on my car are the reverse lights. LEDs are not quite good enough to project light like an incandescent. Now for indicators (looking directly at them) LEDs have not problem exceeding incandescent lighting.