Car wont start!!!again!!!

[numan]

Ok im having no luck getting my D to start, ive read all the other no start threads and still cant get this car to start.

My car has been sitting for 4/5 months and not started at all. Before this the car would start when jumped as the battery was old. Then the car would not start even when jumped so i did the following (just so i can rule out somethings)

Replaced the battery with a new one
Replaced coil
Cleaned connections to coil and ballast resistor/bulkhead
Fuel pump is working
Rpm relay is working (ive tried 3 different ones)
Replaced spark plugs (old ones were fouled with unused fuel from multiple start attempts)
Checked new sparks/ht leads and are working fine,
Checked coil spark also looks fine
Switch Csv and wur plugs to see if it would start...didn't
There is pressure at the sensor plate

When i checked the fuel injectors they would only spray (perfect spray pattern) when the rpm relay was jumpered and i touch down the sensor plate. I tried to start the car like this. ie cranking with jumpered rpm and touching down the sensor plate and still nothing.

When i checked the spray when cranking the car as normal there was no spay from injectors. There also seemed to be unused fuel still in the cylinders

No matter what i have done the car just cranks and never even remotely sounds like it wants to start.

Not to sure what this means or what i should investigate next?

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated

Thanks all

[Chris Burns]

Did you check the CSV or the thermotime switch?

[numan]

i didnt check the CSV but i knowtts is working fine, could the CSV be the culprit? Thanks

[nullset]

Is it a manual or an automatic? Have you messed with the timing at all?

There are four things it needs to start:

- Air
- Fuel
- Spark
- Timing

Have you checked to be sure your spark plugs are firing? Have you tried the hotswap to get it going? How's your accumulator?

Check the voltage at the ballast resistors on each side while starting. If it's an automatic, make sure it's in park and that the car knows it's in park.

--buddy

[numan]

Thanks for that, the car is a manual

Spark plugs are firing
have tried the hotswop - made no difference
Fuel pressure seems fine
ballast resistor also ok

So that leaves the timing? but is it possible for this to change because the car was sitting for months?

Thanks for your help

[nullset]

Thanks for that, the car is a manual

Spark plugs are firing
have tried the hotswop - made no difference
Fuel pressure seems fine
ballast resistor also ok

So that leaves the timing? but is it possible for this to change because the car was sitting for months?

Thanks for your help

How do you know the plugs are firing? Are you sure your distributor cap is on correctly (it could be backwards) and your spark plug wires are going to the correct cylinders?

How old is the fuel in the tank? If it's gasohol that's been sitting, you may need to drain the tank and try again with fresh fuel.

--buddy

[numan]

[QUOTE=nullset;42972]How do you know the plugs are firing?

I have checked all plugs are sparking off the block while cranking

Are you sure your distributor cap is on correctly (it could be backwards) and your spark plug wires are going to the correct cylinders?

Yes these are definately correct

How old is the fuel in the tank? If it's gasohol that's been sitting, you may need to drain the tank and try again with fresh fuel.

Yes fuel has been sitting ill for 2/3 months. I will drain / add fresh fuel although i suspect it still wont start as i did this a couple of months ago and nothing. No harm trying again to rule it out thanks

[Bitsyncmaster]

Does it fire at all? Sure sounds like you have fuel and even if the spark was timed wrong you would get fire.

With what you explain, I would be doing a compression check.

[numan]

no it just cranks and cranks and never even seems like it wants to start remotely!!!

[numan]

Does it fire at all? Sure sounds like you have fuel and even if the spark was timed wrong you would get fire.

With what you explain, I would be doing a compression check.

Ok ill look into getting a loan of a compression tester.

Could it be anything to do with this, today i had someone crank the car while i held the injectors in a jar and i got no spray. I redid the test but this time i jumpered the rpm relay and touch down on the sensor plate and i had a perfect spray pattern. Just wondering why the injectore didnt spray while cranking the car as normal?

[Bitsyncmaster]

Ok ill look into getting a loan of a compression tester.

Could it be anything to do with this, today i had someone crank the car while i held the injectors in a jar and i got no spray. I redid the test but this time i jumpered the rpm relay and touch down on the sensor plate and i had a perfect spray pattern. Just wondering why the injectore didnt spray while cranking the car as normal?

You won't see the injectors spaying in jars unless you press the air plate. They open when they see the engine vacuum installed in the intake

[DMC5180]

You seem to have run all the normal ideas. Try one outside the box. (Ignition Resistor By-pass Relay) verify your getting full voltage to the coil while cranking. Showing spark outside the combustion chamber is easy. Making it fire under compression is the important part. You need the extra voltage when cranking. although I'm sure someone will step in too challenge that statement. Confirm the wires are in the correct locations on the Ballast resistor.

I highly doubt fuel would be your issue. My car will always fire up instantly from a 4/5 month Winter sleep (without any kind of fuel stabilizer).

Did you also say the plugs were fouled before you changed them?

Also, Compression is not the problem either. Unless someone stole your pistons :-) You could have one dead cylinder no compression and it would still run on the the other 5.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Also, Compression is not the problem either. Unless someone stole your pistons :-) You could have one dead cylinder no compression and it would still run on the the other 5.

Would not rule out compression check, it's something to do when you can't find a problem. A few stuck valves could kill all engine vacuum and prevent starting.

[Jonathan]

Would the inertia switch plunger being up lead to these symptoms?

I think you said it is a manual? I know in my automatic, if it is not all the way into Park it won't let you start the car. Is there a similar interlock for the manual transmissions?

[Bitsyncmaster]

Would the inertia switch plunger being up lead to these symptoms?

I think you said it is a manual? I know in my automatic, if it is not all the way into Park it won't let you start the car. Is there a similar interlock for the manual transmissions?

The starter interlock stops the motor from cranking over. It does not kill the ignition circuit.

[numan]

Did you also say the plugs were fouled before you changed them?

5.

Yes plugs were black with unused fuel in the engine

[Elvis]

Could it be anything to do with this, today i had someone crank the car while i held the injectors in a jar and i got no spray. I redid the test but this time i jumpered the rpm relay and touch down on the sensor plate and i had a perfect spray pattern. Just wondering why the injectore didnt spray while cranking the car as normal?

When you pulled the injectors you opened the intake system so there is no more vacuum to move the air plate.
If you have them still out you could test it again with the holes plugged.
Do the injectors spray now ?

A way to increase ignition energy is to bridge the resistor manually. If the starter does not engage the relay or the relay is dead this may happen.
bridge on of the two resistors (do yo have the schematic ?) and try again.

Most likely the plugs are wet again. pull the RPM relay and crank a few seconds with max throttle to dry the plugs (it's worth a try, it's a pain to pull the out...)

What we do to start the old cars in our car museum - we drop some fresh gas in the intake and crank it. Very often this works.


Good luck getting her running :-)

[DMCTek]

Try starting with the RPM relay jumped and pressing down slightly on the air metering plate while a assistant cranks the car over. This way you are sure to have fuel (verified by your previous test).

As Elvis mentioned if you think you have fuel fouled the plugs crank it over with the gas pedal held to the floor. If it's flooded badly remove the RPM relay to prevent any additional fuel from entering. As the plugs dry out from cranking they typically sputter then start.

[numan]

[QUOTE=Elvis;43048]

A way to increase ignition energy is to bridge the resistor manually. If the starter does not engage the relay or the relay is dead this may happen.
bridge on of the two resistors (do yo have the schematic ?) and try again.
QUOTE]

Not to sure how to bridge the resistor? but sounds like a good idea, will this send 12v instead or 9v and maybe give it a little more power to spark?

Thanks Elvis for help

[numan]

As Elvis mentioned if you think you have fuel fouled the plugs crank it over with the gas pedal held to the floor. If it's flooded badly remove the RPM relay to prevent any additional fuel from entering. As the plugs dry out from cranking they typically sputter then start.

Sounds like another good idea, i will need to charge my battery again and ill give this a shot and report back if it work, thanks for the help

[Ron]

Not to sure how to bridge the resistor?
Connect the White wire to the White/Yellow wire.

[nullset]

Has your car had the starter circuit recall done?

I don't think it's your problem, but it won't hurt to fix it if it's needed.

Have you checked and replaced the fuses in your electrical box?

--buddy

[numan]

Okay just pulled out one of the injectors and while i was cranking fuel squirted out of where the injector was, obviously the engine must be badly flooded. I then disconnect the rpm relay to stop for fuel flooding the engine. I crank the engine 3 times for about 20 seconds a time to see would it burn off the excess fuel, but there still was no attempt to start.

I know the engine must be flooded whats the proper procedure, will i need to pull out the sparks again, most likely there fouled again

[nullset]

I'd make sure your oil doesn't now smell like fuel. If it does, it's time to change it!

--buddy

[numan]

I'd make sure your oil doesn't now smell like fuel. If it does, it's time to change it!

--buddy

Thanks buddy think ill change it tomorrow before i do anymore

Whats the best way to unflood the engine now?

Thanks for all the advice

[DMC5180]

Reverify you have (Strong Blue) Spark Not yellow/orange. That much cranking and no attempt to fire says you have a spark problem.

Also read through this thread: http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?3009-car-only-starts-sometimes-no-spark He found his issue in post 44


Btw: It would help if you would Please Update your profile with some basic INFO: General location (City, State) Give some Car info VIN: etc. Signature ( first name) Nice to know who we are trying to help.

[Elvis]

Did you bridge the resistor and checked the spark ?

Is the exhaust plugged ?!?!?!?

[nullset]

If you're worried about flooding, make sure you DONT have the CSV plug swapped. That just puts more fuel in.

--buddy

[DMCTek]

To clear flood I would pull and blow off all the plugs. Then crank the motor over a few seconds with the plugs out to make sure the cylinders are also clear.

I'm with Dennis on this one. The more I hear the more this is sounding like a spark issue. Also as noted make sure the CSV has the blue plug socket on it and not the grey.

[numan]

Reverify you have (Strong Blue) Spark Not yellow/orange. That much cranking and no attempt to fire says you have a spark problem.

Also read through this thread: http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?3009-car-only-starts-sometimes-no-spark He found his issue in post 44


Btw: It would help if you would Please Update your profile with some basic INFO: General location (City, State) Give some Car info VIN: etc. Signature ( first name) Nice to know who we are trying to help.

Thanks for that link, i want put new spade connections on the ballst/coil. Does anyone have a photo of how the ballast resistor is wired, just want to double check mine is correct

Thanks

[numan]

I'd make sure your oil doesn't now smell like fuel. If it does, it's time to change it!

--buddy

Thanks for that, oil did smell of fuel so i changed oil/filter today hopefully once i renew the spade connections on ballast/coil she while fire up...eventually

thanks for your help

[Jonathan]

... i want put new spade connections on the ballst/coil. Does anyone have a photo of how the ballast resistor is wired, just want to double check mine is correct

Thanks

Try this link Numan:

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?3064-What-does-the-relay-in-the-engine-compartment-do&p=42060&viewfull=1#post42060

Post #9 of mine has the before and after pictures of the ballast resistor wiring. You want the after ;)

[numan]

Okay changed the connections on the coil/resistor and made sure their wired correctly as per Johnatons picture as she still wont start

thanks for the help

[Spittybug]

Numan, if you were to post your location on your profile then maybe someone close by could come take a look with you....

It might be helpful at this point to list again what you have done so that others can catch up without having to filter through a long list of posts.

Me, I'm thinking timing way off (rotor backwards or plugs swapped). Good spark, good fuel, even if compression is poor should still give SOME kind of minimal combustion.

[nullset]

Okay changed the connections on the coil/resistor and made sure their wired correctly as per Johnatons picture as she still wont start

thanks for the help

Did you do the compression test yet?

Can you post a video (with sound) of what happens when you try to start it?

--buddy

[numan]

Numan, if you were to post your location on your profile then maybe someone close by could come take a look with you....

It might be helpful at this point to list again what you have done so that others can catch up without having to filter through a long list of posts.

Me, I'm thinking timing way off (rotor backwards or plugs swapped). Good spark, good fuel, even if compression is poor should still give SOME kind of minimal combustion.

Thanks Spittybug, yes i had a local owner in Ireland have a look but we were unable to figure out why she wouldn't start

As regards the timing is it possible for the timing to change?, i haven't messed with anything , and she use to start before she was lying up. Should i change the distributor cap/rotor just to check if dampness/moisture is preventing her from starting.

I'll post up a new list of that ive done

thanks


Did you do the compression test yet?

Can you post a video (with sound) of what happens when you try to start it?

--buddy

No haven't done compression test, ill need to buy/get a loan of one before i can test that

Yes ill try to get a video of her cranking and post it up

Thanks

[numan]

Okay here's a list of things ive checked so far, just to recap the car (manual) will only crank and crank.......and never sounds likes she wants to start

Battery is new/fully charged
Cleaned fuel tank out and put in fresh fuel
Fuel pump works
Rpm Relay works
Injector test proved they spray with a good spray pattern
Fuse no 1 is fine
Replaced fouled injectors
Replaced ignition relay
Coil works, verified by spark
I have pressure at the sensor plate
Changed oil/filter
Put new connections on coil/checked to insure they were wired correctly
Put new connections on ballast resistor/checked to insure they were wired correctly
Did wur/csv swap, didnt change anything
Inertia switch has not been activated

Car has been sitting for approx 6 months, before this car would start and has had no work done to her since then.

Thanks for all the ongoing help and advice

[David T]

Pull a spark plug and see if you get a nice, fat, blue spark on it while cranking.
David Teitelbaum

[numan]

Thanks david T, i did this and seen a spark (during daylight) couldn't tell if the spark was blue , i will redo the test to make sure im getting a strong blue spak,

Thanks

[Spittybug]

Have the plug wires been off? Are you in the correct order, 1,6,3,5,2,4. # 1 cylinder being passenger side (U.S.A passenger) close to firewall, #6 being driver side rearmost in car. The rotor cap is numbered.

Sorry if I'm suggesting the obvious, but in my experience it is that which we overlook that bites the deepest....

You'll get it...

[denis45700]

Where are you in Ireland. If you are near Limerick look up laceys garage he can get it figured out for you.

[numan]

Have the plug wires been off? Are you in the correct order, 1,6,3,5,2,4. # 1 cylinder being passenger side (U.S.A passenger) close to firewall, #6 being driver side rearmost in car. The rotor cap is numbered.

Sorry if I'm suggesting the obvious, but in my experience it is that which we overlook that bites the deepest....

You'll get it...

Thanks Spittybug for your help, only time plugs were off was when i changed the spark plugs and i definately put them back as before. I have heard from a local owner he has difficulty in starting his car due to moisture in his distributor cap (very damp/wet climate here and car is outside)
The way he starts his car (after sitting up for a while) was by putting a hair dryer on his dis cap for 15mins and then she starts fine
I have a brand new dis cap and rotor arm so im thinking i will have a go of changing these and then i can also verify the plugs are as per the firing order

Thanks again

[numan]

Where are you in Ireland. If you are near Limerick look up laceys garage he can get it figured out for you.

Thanks denis unfortunatley im in Mullingar Westmeath so a bit far but thanks for the suggestion

[Rich]

Thanks david T, i did this and seen a spark (during daylight) couldn't tell if the spark was blue , i will redo the test to make sure im getting a strong blue spark

+1 on this recommendation. There is a parallel test you can run at the same time. The factory diagnostic troubleshooting guide recommends checking for a spark to ground with a distance of 12mm, no reference to color of spark. So place the coil or spark plug wire 0.5in/12mm from a good ground and, with the battery topped up, crank it. Start with the coil output wire. No need to crank more than 2-3 seconds - the sparks are either there or they aren't.

A weak spark may act like "no spark", especially in a flooded engine. The "factory" spark-quality test is the very first item mentioned in both the fuel and ignition non-start guides in the factory book.

Link to non-start charts: http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?3142

[numan]

Okay i checked the coil/spark plugs and i was getting spark from all the spark plugs and coil. getting a loan of a timing light so i will check that tomorrow

[DMC5180]

I've been thinking about this If your getting spark at the plug it's not moisture in the cap. Moisture will cause missing and cross firing most of the time.

This is starting to sound like the plug wires at the cap are completely opposite of normal position. Think of a modern waste spark ignition system. Now imagine the engine firing at 13° BTDC of the Exhaust stroke. This could also explain why you would not get the slightest hint of firing. Has the distributor ever been out or did you just change the CAP & ROTOR only?

[opethmike]

I recently rebuilt my top end; and when I put it back together, my car wouldn't fire despite getting fuel, spark, and compression.

I thought I had put the distributor back in 180 degrees out, but it turned out to just be that I had the distributor cap on backwards, but still followed the numbering order on the cap.

[DMC5180]

Seems kinda odd the CAP would fully seat on the distributor like that. Isn't there a single alignment KEY that fits a notch in the Distributor housing?

[deloumis]

Number your wires so you know which goes where, and pull all spark plugs. Soak the spark plugs in gasoline to clean them. With the spark plugs out, squirt some oil in each spark plug hole to get it in each cylinder. Crank the engine with no fuel or spark for about 5-10 seconds about 3 times. Squirt oil one more time and repeat. Replace clean spark plugs and plug in your wires, make sure in correct firing order. Make sure you have coil connected and fuel flowing and go to crank her up. Seems like you lost compression.

Since the car ran fine but was parked for some time, then would not start I'm assuming its compression. Wires wind switch on their own so if you didn't mess with them they should be good.

Oh yeah also make sure you do not squirt oil and not crank the engine before replacing spark plugs. You will wet them and they will not start.

I'm no Delorean expert, but I have owned many vehicles and worked on several cars, especially engines that have been sitting for quite some time.

Edit: Blow dry the spark plugs before reinstalling. You do not want to put them on dripping with gasoline!

[opethmike]

Seems kinda odd the CAP would fully seat on the distributor like that. Isn't there a single alignment KEY that fits a notch in the Distributor housing?

No there isn't. There is a notch for fitting the rotor into the distributor, but nothing preventing you from putting a cap on in one of two ways.

[numan]

Looks like i found my problem, stuck my hand onto distributor cap and twisted it , expecting it not move....but it moved around 3 inches!!!!! Getting a timing light to check and will report back my findings, thanks

[Dangermouse]

No there isn't. There is a notch for fitting the rotor into the distributor, but nothing preventing you from putting a cap on in one of two ways.

I too managed to fit it the wrong way round. Result - car won't start. Though as I had just replaced only the wires and the cap, it wasn't too bad to work out :)

[opethmike]

I too managed to fit it the wrong way round. Result - car won't start. Though as I had just replaced only the wires and the cap, it wasn't too bad to work out :)

I had just replaced the entire top end of the engine, so I'm extremely glad it was such a simple concern.