Pipe of Agony O-Ring and Securing Ring Prep?

[rundmc]

Hey all,

When I disassembled my intake manifold, the pipe of agony already seemed kinda loose in the mixture unit and came out with a rattle. I later found the brass securing ring and the o-ring in the valley absolutely slathered with Permatex gasket sealer.

The pipe itself was caked in it as well - I guess by the P.O. ?

Anyway, I cleaned everything up, careful with plastic scrapers so as not to score the pipe itself, and removed all of the Permatex.

When reassembling, I was told to prep the o-ring with grease. Any particular kind? Or should I use Permatex again? (Frankly it looked like a hack job mess when I removed it.)

Thanks,
RUNDMC

[sean]

When reassembling, I was told to prep the o-ring with grease. Any particular kind?

Most any kind will do. You just want to lube it to help ease the pipe in and also add to the seal.

[rundmc]

Thanks

[DMCMW Dave]

The brass ring is supposed to be "staked" in place, i.e. a tight fit. This is about impossible to correct with the air metering assembly in place on the engine. So - someones workaround was gasket glue.

[sdg3205]

Despite my best efforts, my brass ring never stays in place. The rubber washer does, which prevents the vacuum leak, but I was wondering if a little gasket sealer on the washer then the ring would be permissible.

[opethmike]

Most any kind will do. You just want to lube it to help ease the pipe in and also add to the seal.

Yes, one should always use lube to ease it in.

[sdg3205]

Yes, one should always use lube to ease it in.

Especially if it's their first time.

[sean]

Yes, one should always use lube to ease it in.


Especially if it's their first time.

Dirty, dirty, dirty......:giggle:

[WelmoedJ]

If the brass cup does fit tightly any longer there's one way to make it larger.
Carefully tap the material to make it get a larger diameter.
You do that from the inside out all along the "ring" that should keep it tight.

My car was missing the brass cup and I was told it's no longer available.
I therefore used a large copper washer and tapped it until it was a bit larger than the opening it has to fit and stay in.
After that I put the O-ring in and used a pipe (approx 17mm diameter) to press the copper washer in until it locked the O-ring tightly.

It's a tedious and time consuming job, but it works.
Don't use any sealant also because you need to be able to replace the O-ring at some point in time.
You grease the tip of the pipe all around before pushing it in.
Any thick grease will do.

[Bitsyncmaster]

I used a thick loctite to lock the brass ring in with great success. Of course the mixture unit has to be out of the car and clean the areas to get a good bond. Also keep the loctite off the O-ring.

[rundmc]

Fortunately the brass ring on my vehicle does stay in place with a tight fit upon test fitting it, so I will use grease on the o-ring and secure it in place before attempting other solutions.

I think Dave is correct that the previous owner must have tried to reinstall the ring while the mixture unit was still on the intake, and used gasket glue to solve the problem - but that just created a mess, which might also explain some of my vehicle's hunting issues from before.

[David T]

Just about any grease will work, just don't go overboard and use too much, it will just make a mess. One "trick" to getting the pipe in is to guide it in while pushing the air sensor plate down and watching it enter the mixture unit. Helps to try twisting the pipe a little too as you slide it in. You really do need that brass ring (or some kind of washer) to hold the "O" ring in place. If the ring is missing it is probably laying way down in the valley somewhere if it is not jingling and sliding around loosely on the brass tube. When the last person took that tube out they didn't realize the ring fell in.
David Teitelbaum

[sean]

One "trick" to getting the pipe in is to guide it in while pushing the air sensor plate down and watching it enter the mixture unit.

This is good advice. Ill drop a shop light back behind the mixture unit so when I push the pressure plate down you can really see the light come in as well as the pipe.

[Joe Kuchan]

I don't agree that "any" grease will work. That ring is upstream from the lambda probe, so it would be best to avoid silicone-based grease.

[David T]

Yes, I should have cautioned against any use of silicone around the motor. The grease should be petroleum based. Just as long as it is not something which will attack Buna rubber. You can also use sensor safe silicone gasket maker, just a LITTLE BIT.
David Teitelbaum

[nullset]

I just pulled my manifold, and I don't seem to have the brass ring. Is there a good workaround I can use?

--buddy

[David T]

Get a brass washer that is larger than you need. File the OD so that it fits tightly and then file the ID just a bit larger than the tube that fits through. Install the "O" ring and then tap in the washer you made to hold the "O" ring in place. Or you can do it with a piece of nylon or whatever you have handy and can make fit. Steel is just harder to file. You can use a piece of aluminum too. Maybe you can find a piece of copper tubing that fits close and you can make fit.
David Teitelbaum




I just pulled my manifold, and I don't seem to have the brass ring. Is there a good workaround I can use?

--buddy

[Bitsyncmaster]

I just pulled my manifold, and I don't seem to have the brass ring. Is there a good workaround I can use?

--buddy

Did you look closely in the mixture unit? There should also be an O-ring in the hole or on you pipe. You may find it down in the valley.

[nullset]

Did you look closely in the mixture unit? There should also be an O-ring in the hole or on you pipe. You may find it down in the valley.

I think they're long gone. I am pretty sure I have the O-ring, but I don't have the brass washer. If it's in the valley, it's way in the bottom, and I'd have to remove everything to get to it.

This could very well explain my crazy idle issues.

Is there some kind of sealant I could use over the O ring to hold it in place safely?

Right now the mixture unit is out of the car, so I'm flexible as to what I need to do to it.

--buddy

[nullset]

Is the O-ring orange colored and slightly larger than the hole? If so, I've got two of them. Like I said though, they're slightly bigger than the hole in the mixture unit. Is that normal? Should I force them in and find some way to retain them?

--buddy

[Bitsyncmaster]

Is the O-ring orange colored and slightly larger than the hole? If so, I've got two of them. Like I said though, they're slightly bigger than the hole in the mixture unit. Is that normal? Should I force them in and find some way to retain them?

--buddy

Try it. Your pipe should have a good seal (feel snub) when it's installed. Normally you grease the pipe and o-ring but you will need something to hold it in. One guy used a threaded pipe to replace it but you have to be sure you can get the mixture unit in or out.

[nullset]

Try it. Your pipe should have a good seal (feel snub) when it's installed. Normally you grease the pipe and o-ring but you will need something to hold it in. One guy used a threaded pipe to replace it but you have to be sure you can get the mixture unit in or out.

A local owner has come through with a spare (he's building out a 3.0). If that doesn't work, I can find one at the local volvo junkhouse.

In the mean time, I need to find a new piece of hose that connects the water pump to the return pipe. It's torn on the bottom.

It's never just one thing wrong at a time, is it? :)

--buddy

[82DMC12]

The rubber oring is black.

[nullset]

Does the oring need to be anything special, or just ye-olde-average o-ring that fits in the hole?

Is the brass ring you're referring to present in these pictures? Is it installed correctly? How exactly is that supposed to keep the oring in?

107261072710728

So the O-ring goes inside that, and the tube goes inside that, correct? Does that thing need to be pulled out or somehow bent over the O ring to prevent it from being able to come out?

--buddy

[dmc6960]

So the O-ring goes inside that, and the tube goes inside that, correct? Does that thing need to be pulled out or somehow bent over the O ring to prevent it from being able to come out?

Yea, the brass ring needs to be completely pulled out and turned around. When put in the other way it will capture the o-ring in the channel. The ID and OD of the o-ring should roughly match the OD of the brass pipe and the ID of the brass ring respectively. Regular o-ring should be fine.

[nullset]

Excellent. So it wasn't lost after all.

For posterity, here are some pictures of the O-ring and brass ring installed correctly.
10729107301073110732
Thanks for all the advice.

--buddy

[82DMC12]

Now you just have to figure out how to put it together with the meter attached to the car and all the fuel hoses/ignition wires in the way!

Hint: if you push down on the air meter plate you can see the hole the pipe fits into.

Andy

[stevedmc]

Did he ever get the thing put back together? Its been a while since we've heard from him.

[nullset]

Yes, once I realized that the copper ring was there, putting it back together was a snap.

--buddy

[stevedmc]

Yes, once I realized that the copper ring was there, putting it back together was a snap.

--buddy

I was refering to the RunDMC guy.

[Morpheus]

Now that we know how to get the pipe in, what's the proper orientation of the pipe? Angled-cut side up in the mix unit?

[82DMC12]

Now that we know how to get the pipe in, what's the proper orientation of the pipe? Angled-cut side up in the mix unit?

Yes. I think the last time I put one in I had the idle motor removed. I put the pipe in first, then lined it up with the motor, all the while peering in through the meter plate to make sure the pipe was still in place. It's frustrating for sure.

Andy

[Szabi]

Hello, can you confirm the copper ring and the o-ring can be found on the outer side of the mixture unit only? When checking the idle regulator recently, the pipe came out easily from the mixture unit, and even though I put it back together with the brass ring and o-ring, now the car stalls a few seconds after starting. I asked Ed, who says "102771 inside, stick a brass ring with the rubber o ring."
102771 is the lower part of the mixture control unit, so if I understand correctly, he suggests disassembling the mixture unit and apply the same ring+ o-ring inside as from outside (???).

Also, someone in another thread mentioned that Loctite would keep the copper ring in its place. Which Loctite would work here? What is the temperature it has to bear with?

[David T]

Hello, can you confirm the copper ring and the o-ring can be found on the outer side of the mixture unit only? When checking the idle regulator recently, the pipe came out easily from the mixture unit, and even though I put it back together with the brass ring and o-ring, now the car stalls a few seconds after starting. I asked Ed, who says "102771 inside, stick a brass ring with the rubber o ring."
102771 is the lower part of the mixture control unit, so if I understand correctly, he suggests disassembling the mixture unit and apply the same ring+ o-ring inside as from outside (???).

Also, someone in another thread mentioned that Loctite would keep the copper ring in its place. Which Loctite would work here? What is the temperature it has to bear with?

The brass retainer is just deformed slightly so it stays in place. It's only purpose is to hold the "O" ring in place till the pipe is inserted. A little lube on the pipe will make it easier to insert it. The brass retainer and the "O" ring are part of the lower mixture housing. The stalling could be for a myriad of reasons besides the pipe leaking.

[WelmoedJ]

Hello, can you confirm the copper ring and the o-ring can be found on the outer side of the mixture unit only? When checking the idle regulator recently, the pipe came out easily from the mixture unit, and even though I put it back together with the brass ring and o-ring, now the car stalls a few seconds after starting. I asked Ed, who says "102771 inside, stick a brass ring with the rubber o ring."
102771 is the lower part of the mixture control unit, so if I understand correctly, he suggests disassembling the mixture unit and apply the same ring+ o-ring inside as from outside (???).

You don't have to disassemble the mixture unit. You do have to take the mixture unit off, to put the brass "cup" and O-ring into place.
It may help to bend the outside ring of the cup a bit outward if it slides in too smoothly.
The cup should have a firm grip to the edge of the mixture unit hole.

1. Put the O-ring into the cup
2. Place the cup into its hole.
3. Mount the mixture unit
4. Grease the aux air pipe nozzle fairly (to make it slide into the O-ring easily)
5. Put the pipe into position for sliding in.
6. Push and keep the air plate down
7. Use a flashlight to see the pipe entry hole
8. Now with some eye/hand co-ordination, push the pipe gently into the O-ring.
9. If done correctly you will see the tip of the pipe protruding out of the hole.

It may take a couple of tries, but once your hand and eye work together it can be done within minutes.


Aso, someone in another thread mentioned that Loctite would keep the copper ring in its place. Which Loctite would work here? What is the temperature it has to bear with?
Never found the need to use Locktite. I do not know its temp range, so no advise on this part of your questions.

FYI: On my car the brass cup was missing.
I used a large washer and made it to fit the hole and lockup the O-ring.
This was partialy sufficient, but not to my satisfaction.
I made a plate of metal (1 mm thickness) and made a hole in it.
Used two small size screws to hold that against the side of the mixture unit, over the hole.
This locked up the washer and O-ring sufficiently and securely, no leaks anymore.

N.B: I had to drill holes for the 2 screws. If someone wants to solve their problem as I did, make sure all of the metal parts are removed from the mixture unit.
Otherwise those shavings may end up in your cylinders and may cause trouble.

[Szabi]

You don't have to disassemble the mixture unit. You do have to take the mixture unit off, to put the brass "cup" and O-ring into place.

Is removing the mixture unit a difficult job? Any gaskets to be replaced after that? (Not sure if there is a how-to-do article somewhere). I can actually reach the place where the brass ring and o-ring go, probably the only advantage of having thin, long fingers :) So if it is only about pushing them into place, then probably I can do that without removing the mixture unit.

[Bitsyncmaster]

I used loctite 569 since I had a bottle of it. Loctite has hundreds of types but you need to order those on line.

http://www.all-spec.com/products/56931.html?utm_source=bingads&utm_medium=pla

[PJ Grady Inc.]

If the brass cup does fit tightly any longer there's one way to make it larger.
Carefully tap the material to make it get a larger diameter.
You do that from the inside out all along the "ring" that should keep it tight.

My car was missing the brass cup and I was told it's no longer available.
I therefore used a large copper washer and tapped it until it was a bit larger than the opening it has to fit and stay in.
After that I put the O-ring in and used a pipe (approx 17mm diameter) to press the copper washer in until it locked the O-ring tightly.

It's a tedious and time consuming job, but it works.
Don't use any sealant also because you need to be able to replace the O-ring at some point in time.
You grease the tip of the pipe all around before pushing it in.
Any thick grease will do.

Just so anyone who needs one knows where to get them. I HAVE THE BRASS RING. Actually we have plenty of them. Now you can "grab the brass ring" too!
BTW silicone grease works best on rubber.
Rob Grady

[WelmoedJ]

Just so anyone who needs one knows where to get them. I HAVE THE BRASS RING. Actually we have plenty of them. Now you can "grab the brass ring" too!
BTW silicone grease works best on rubber.
Rob Grady

Thanks for the info, Rob.
The pipe's fit is no issue at the moment.
I now know where to get it, once I need to work in that area again.

For now I stick to the phrase "If it aint broke, don't fix it". :cool1:

[WelmoedJ]

Is removing the mixture unit a difficult job? Any gaskets to be replaced after that? (Not sure if there is a how-to-do article somewhere). I can actually reach the place where the brass ring and o-ring go, probably the only advantage of having thin, long fingers :) So if it is only about pushing them into place, then probably I can do that without removing the mixture unit.

If you feel more comfortable trying without removing the mixture unit, why not.

Removing the mixture unit involves:
- disconnecting the auxiliary air pipe (disconnect the ISM to make it easier to remove the pipe)
- disconnecting the accelerator's connection to the mixture unit
- disconnecting electrical wiring to the mixture unit
- removing the W pipe (and afterwards replacing the gaskets)
- removing the vac valve at the back of the mixture unit
- removing the two screws left and right of the mixture unit
If I'm correct this is the moment you can lift the mixture unit and move it away enough to get to the AAP's hole.
Should you want to take it off of the engine, you also have to remove the fuel distributor (3 srews on top of the MU, for one screw you need to remove the left side fuel lines hiding the screw).

Hope this helps.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Thanks for the info, Rob.
The pipe's fit is no issue at the moment.
I now know where to get it, once I need to work in that area again.

For now I stick to the phrase "If it aint broke, don't fix it". :cool1:

Since that post was almost 3 years old I didn't really think you were searching all this time. I put it out there as a FYI for anyone who may need one now...or later. Your fix is probably permanent anyway....maybe!
Rob Grady

[Szabi]

Just for the files: a friend of mine (who has more experience with cars, but he is not professional) managed to put the brass ring and the o-ring back without removing the mixture unit (or anything else). The engine then started easily and worked well during a 10-mile test drive. (Previously it always stalled 2 seconds after starting, so it is pretty sure that it was the air leak at the `pipe of agony` that caused the problem).

Happy Holidays to all Delorean-owners and fans! :)
http://m.cdn.blog.hu/de/delorean/image/500dsc04173b.JPG

[SpudMurphy]

This is an oldish thread that I came across while researching issues around the reinstallation of the pipe of pain. I found the installation to be pretty easy insofar as I removed the air filter and the air metering disc underneath. I then placed a small led light inside the unit and the orifice for the pipe is as plain to see and can be guided in very easy.
I'm finding it difficult to get the rubber U bend pipe all lined up - to be honest the rubber u bend pipe seems such a ridiculous shape - but I guess it's just me - if anybody has a close up photo than that would be great ?

[sdg3205]

Do you have the brass pipe oriented properly? The rubber u-pipe should be easy, but if the brass pipe isn’t oriented properly nothing will fit properly

[SpudMurphy]

Do you have the brass pipe oriented properly? The rubber u-pipe should be easy, but if the brass pipe isn’t oriented properly nothing will fit properly

Hi Dave.
I have the pipe installed in the fuel distributor orifice. I have rotated the pipe and there seems to be no orientation that will enable the pipe to connect using the rubber tube. let me see if I can post some photos ...its as though the rubber pipe wants to be 90 degrees not a U pipe? 556255562655627

[sdg3205]

Yes, that pipe needs to be oriented so the elbow is pointing towards the fascia and the opening towards the firewall

[Bitsyncmaster]

After you get the hose clamped onto the pipe, you really never have to remove that hose from the pipe again. You just pull off the end on the idle motor if you need to remove the pipe again.

[sdg3205]

I’m both your pictures it is incorrect

[SpudMurphy]

Ok guys I think I have sorted it out ....... and this is where a complete newb to Deloreans and K jetronic will hold his hands up and say I f'd up big time.

So just as a bit of background - I've head this car 12 months - bought as a retirement project - I retire December 2018 - and I spend a few hours on it each week.
It came partly disassembled hasn't run since the 90's and I've been renewing all the stuff that has to be renewed - a lot of stuff!

I've dry fitted all the new fuel lines, leads, coolant pipes,hoses etc after cleaning out the VOD, and the pipe of pain/agony was my last "hook up".

I have a two by four across the rear of the frame (all the rear fascia has been removed) and I was peering down at the p of pain.
It seemed to want to connect with the CSV and infact it would if the rubber pipe was 90 degrees and not a U.

It reminded me of the many times I've disregarded the instructions when assembling flat pack furniture :-)

So I have to go through the bits tonight and see where it is. So I made a mistake - and will learn from it. Shoot, 12 months ago I had no idea what a VOD was!

Ironically, I had given to me a brand new bosch 0280 140 114. Some sites list it as fitting the DeLorean - but it looks different to me ?

[SpudMurphy]

Got home and rummaged through my bits :-) and found the missing part that makes everything make sense. Thank you guys for the quick responses and for "putting up" with my lack of knowledge on the K Jet. The pipe agonises no more and fits like it should.
So in reality I was trying to attach the pipe of pain bypassing the idle control valve 5564455645