Urgent, may be stuck 1/2 hour from home with no starter

[AdmiralSenn]

Hey guys. I'm 1/2 an hour from home and my starter just cut out. It spins but does not engage. I can hear something grinding metal on metal when I try to start it.

The starter is almost brand new, has maybe ~200 starts on it. I have almost no tools on me. I do have an engine bay starter wire I can use to start from behind the car.

Current plans are:
1 attempt to strike starter / solenoid with heavy object from underneath car
2 put car in reverse and push it to rotate the engine assembly
3 attempt to get enough momentum to push start
4 cry

I have until about 8:30 before I can get out to it again (I'm in class right now) so whoever has ideas in that time, please let me know.

*sigh* Christine has earned her name back....

[deloumis]

Do you have an auto or 5 speed?

[stevedmc]

Do you have an auto or 5 speed?

I would assume he had a manual since he mentioned push starting it.

Push starting is no big deal if you are in a big enough parking lot. I sucessfully push started my car in a walmart parking lot one time (all by myself).

Make sure the key is in the on position, put the car in neutral, and get the car moving about 5 mph. Jump in while its still moving, put the car in 2nd grear (while pressing the clutch) and quickly let your foot off the clutch and then push the clutch back down. This is called bump starting the car.

This is the easiest thing to do in your situation to get home. Possible issues could be a bad battery (or alternator), bad starter (cross references to a 91 eagle premier) or even a bad connection in your relay compartment.

[Spittybug]

It's even easier in higher gears. Just be careful if you hear the metal on metal sound while jump starting, you could have a stuck nose armature (or whatever it's called - the piece that actually moves in and out when the solenoid engages). If so, STOP.

[Exolis]

Push start seems to be your best option. Judging from the fact it engages, but grinds with no cranking, then the gear or lever on starter or Spin wheel are Fubar'ed. Since the only way for the starter motor to spin, is when the striker in the solenoid is fully activated, pushing the striker to connect Battery to Motor coils and engaging the gear into place.

[deloumis]

If your first attempt to push start fails, try cranking again with key. It could also be your flywheel. What was the reason you replaced the started before? Had this happened before? As Steve never mentioned, push starting would be your best bet to get home.

[AdmiralSenn]

Hi guys.

Yeah, she's a manual.

I replaced the starter with an Eagle Premier unit when the factory starter ("Overhauled" by the PO.... :rolleyes:) died completely. I have never had problems with it until now.

Honestly I'm wondering if my flywheel teeth might not be worn down. It wouldn't surprise me. I am really hoping it's just a stuck solenoid or something so I can get a new one from the shop.

Will attempt a push start when the parking lot clears out a little. Thanks for the help guys.

[DMC3165]

I tried the eagle premier route. Couldn't get it to work properly.It would not disengage from the flywheel correctly and grind like hell every time the motor would start. I had to have my parris-rhone unit rebuilt and it works like a charm.

Push start your car is the best bet. It should turn over. if your in a big enough parking lot get up to a running speed (if you can) before you pop the clutch and she should go. Good luck.

[AdmiralSenn]

Problem Solved

Maybe.

The car didn't magically start after cooling off for a few hours, so I took a friend's suggestion and put the transmission in reverse, then attempted to push the car backwards. It started up right afterwards.

So, owing to the fact that I just successfully started it ten times in a row after a 40-minute drive, what should I do now? The starter seems to work fine, but I have no way of knowing what the problem might be until/unless it happens again.

I think my flywheel and the starter teeth must be okay or it wouldn't have started again so many times successfully.

Is there any kind of alignment or shimming that can be done on our starters?

Thanks again for all the help guys. If a mod can remove the "urgent" from the title so nobody wastes their time, that'd be cool. Thanks.

[deloumis]

Problem Solved

Maybe.

The car didn't magically start after cooling off for a few hours, so I took a friend's suggestion and put the transmission in reverse, then attempted to push the car backwards. It started up right afterwards.

So, owing to the fact that I just successfully started it ten times in a row after a 40-minute drive, what should I do now? The starter seems to work fine, but I have no way of knowing what the problem might be until/unless it happens again.

I think my flywheel and the starter teeth must be okay or it wouldn't have started again so many times successfully.

Is there any kind of alignment or shimming that can be done on our starters?

Thanks again for all the help guys. If a mod can remove the "urgent" from the title so nobody wastes their time, that'd be cool. Thanks.

It could still be a flywheel problem. You could have one or just a few teeth grinder down or broken. You could have stopped at the perfect spot to not get a crank, which when you turned the engine while in reverse, you got out of that spot. I would jack up the rear end and check the flywheel. You wouldn't want to get back in this situation. Not to mention damaging your flywheel further.

[DMCMW Dave]

It could still be a flywheel problem. You could have one or just a few teeth grinder down or broken. You could have stopped at the perfect spot to not get a crank, which when you turned the engine while in reverse, you got out of that spot. I would jack up the rear end and check the flywheel. You wouldn't want to get back in this situation. Not to mention damaging your flywheel further.

You can actually replace the gear teeth and save the flywheel. Part 102062

Kind of a interesting process involving and oven and a freezer.

[stevedmc]

He needs to make sure the voltage going to his starter isn't sitting behind a 30 amp (or whatever it is) circuit breaker. The voltage going to the starter isn't supposed to be protected by the circuit breaker if I remember correctly.

[Dangermouse]

If the starter is a "used" eagle unit it may need a little lube.

I had a starter many years ago on an old Renault that exhibited the same symptoms. I took to carrying a hammer to give it a whack. Eventually I took it apart and found the bearings were very dry and would cause it to stick. A bit of grease and it was back to normal.

[Nicholas R]

You can actually replace the gear teeth and save the flywheel. Part 102062

Kind of a interesting process involving and oven and a freezer.

Are you talking about replacing the ring gear? I've always wondered what was involved in replacing one. How exactly is it that there are extra ring gears but not extra flywheels? lol.

Also dont worry, if you're missing a tooth you've only got a 1 in 150 chance of landing in that spot ;)

[Exolis]

Can also disconnect the Fuel Pump and cranking it for a few seconds and check for bad spot/s on the Flywheel. I would also advise the whole whacking a starter with a hammer thing. I heard of it before and I don't think it's very effective. If my professor from college is correct(and I believe he has the experience and knowledge to back it up), hard shocks to permanent magnets like that will decrease the strength of the magnet, maybe nothing noticeable with one hit, so make it count if you need to!

[DMCMW Dave]

Are you talking about replacing the ring gear? I've always wondered what was involved in replacing one. How exactly is it that there are extra ring gears but not extra flywheels? lol.

Think of it from the perspective of the original DMC and dealers - what was an owner more likely to screw up in the first 5 years - a flywheel so badly that it can't be resurfaced, or a starter or ignition failure grinding the teeth? The ring gear would have been a cheaper part to replace than an entire flywheel, and much cheaper to inventory and ship. This stuff was not put in dealer inventory thinking it would still be in demand 30 years later. They had expectations of failure rate and planned accordingly.

[dvonk]

...If my professor from college is correct(and I believe he has the experience and knowledge to back it up), hard shocks to permanent magnets like that will decrease the strength of the magnet...

many magnets are quite brittle, so this could be plausible...

[LEVY]

I don't believe starters use permanent magnets, what is the name of your professor?



Can also disconnect the Fuel Pump and cranking it for a few seconds and check for bad spot/s on the Flywheel. I would also advise the whole whacking a starter with a hammer thing. I heard of it before and I don't think it's very effective. If my professor from college is correct(and I believe he has the experience and knowledge to back it up), hard shocks to permanent magnets like that will decrease the strength of the magnet, maybe nothing noticeable with one hit, so make it count if you need to!

[Dangermouse]

At the time, a new starter would have cost about 10% of what that car was worth, so needs must, etc.

After lubrication, the hammer was retired to its correct use - hitting my thumb at every opportunity :rofl:

[Bitsyncmaster]

The eagle starter is permant magnet type (or so I was told).

The starter solenoid has two windings. One is for high power to pull it in and the other is for low power to hold it in. The factory may have jumpered the wrong winding but it would take some test equipment to verify.

If your starter just was spinning the solenoid must have engaged (that makes contact to the starter windings). Since you heard noises, I bet you just have an alingment problem with the starter.

I think there are pins that align the starter that you may have lost when you changed it.

[David T]

The hammer trick usually works on a well worn starter when the brushes are very worn and are sticking. The shock from the hammer makes the brushes move just enough to make contact. If you need to use the hammer trick you should be replacing the starter ASAP. This also happens on other kinds of cars because the car gets flooded and the starter is low in the car so it is one of the first electrical parts to get wet. Shock is bad for permanent magnets, heat will also demagnetize them. Typically you do not want to mess around with a flakey starter, especially on an automatic, you CANNOT push start them! To replace the ring gear you first grind the welds, heat the ring gear up with a torch and hammer it off. Installation is the reverse. Sometimes you can flip the ring gear over and use the other side. Before going through all of the effort to do the ring gear you should slowly rotate the flywheel with the starter removed and examine the teeth. The starter may need a shim to make it engage correctly or the bendix gear on the starter may be bad.
David Teitelbaum

[Bitsyncmaster]

A bendix gear is used on older Ford engines. That gear moves forward into the ring gear by inertia of the spinning starter motor. Our gears are driven forward by a pinion driven by a solenoid.

The bendix type gears would always have problems engaging the ring gear.

The hammer trick also got the solenoid unstuck. That was very common in old Chevy's that the solenoid grease would get sticky.

[AdmiralSenn]

I'll be taking the starter out this week to inspect it.

Interestingly enough, the brown wire bundle that carries the 12V from the alternator has come loose on BOTH ends. While fiddling with the car today it just decided it wouldn't start - fans turned off, lights turned off, everything. I tightened one end and it worked fine, then later in the afternoon the same thing happened.

When I remove the starter and check out the teeth (I may have the store replace it just for the peace of mind) I'll be re-tightening those connections and checking for breaks in the line.

I also noticed that while it was loose, the starter exhibited the same symptoms - and then it started right up again after I tightened the cable. Could be a coincidence but I'm going to take a long hard look at those connections this week.

[AdmiralSenn]

Resoldered the ends on the brown wire, problem still presents itself. Now the solenoid is randomly not engaging.

I am taking it apart tomorrow to see what's going on.