Car reassembled - but won't start - Please Help

[rundmc]

Hey everyone,

So after putting my intake manifold back together and putting everything in order, we cranked the car (giving the fuel pump a few primes first in second position). The car turns over and cranks but it seems it does not want to fire.

I changed the sparkplugs to platinums because I heard those do not require gapping. I also changed the rotor, wires and cap. The cap was firmly seated. The rotor was properly seated. I made a diagram of the sparkplug wires before removal and triple checked the new wires from the new cap for proper placement.

I also put a new o-ring on the CSV.

I have tested the CSV, there seems to be good pressure from the fuel system and no leaks.

I also unplugged the thermotime switch on the thermostat and tried to start - no dice.

How do I test for spark? Or, what else should I do?

Thanks,
Mike

[sean]

Put a timing gun on the wires to see If they are firing or put an old plug in each wire and see if you get spark.

[sdg3205]

Hey Mike,

How long did you try for? After i rebuilt everything (entire cooling system and entire ignition system etc etc) my car took a few minutes to fire up again.

I didnt crank it too long each time to prevent the starter from overheating. After about a minute it started to grumble and after about 2 or 3 minutes it fired up and ran beautifully. Not sure why, but hey thats what happened!

[DMC5180]

Do a quick spark check. Pull the number 6 Plug wire and stick one of the old plugs in it. Then ground the plug to the intake while someone cranks it. If you have spark reinstall wire. Remove the air cleaner push down on the flap slightly and give it shot of starting fluid in the intake. then try cranking again. You should get some fire from it. It could be you've just got a lot of air in the fuel lines. It takes a little time to fill them if they've been emptied this it especially true at idle. You don't get much fuel flow through the injectors at idle pressure.

[jawn101]

Regular platinum plugs do require gapping, it's the +4's that don't. So if you just used standard platinum tipped plugs with only one conductor, you still have to gap them.

[rundmc]

Regular platinum plugs do require gapping, it's the +4's that don't. So if you just used standard platinum tipped plugs with only one conductor, you still have to gap them.

They are the +4s


Hey Mike,

How long did you try for? After i rebuilt everything (entire cooling system and entire ignition system etc etc) my car took a few minutes to fire up again.

I didnt crank it too long each time to prevent the starter from overheating. After about a minute it started to grumble and after about 2 or 3 minutes it fired up and ran beautifully. Not sure why, but hey thats what happened!

On and off (not too long so as not to burn up the starter) for about 15 minutes.

Have just double-checked the positioning of the distributor cap, and it is correct and seated properly.

[82DMC12]

Why +4's? I've heard nothing but bad stuff about those plugs, especially when used in a D. Bosch silver's work just fine. The only function of a plug is to create an arc. It only needs one tip to do it!

Andy

[rundmc]

Maybe because I hadn't gotten the memo they were bad for DeLoreans and they were being sold in a kit on Hervey's site for DeLoreans so I went for it.

[stevedmc]

Maybe because I hadn't gotten the memo they were bad for DeLoreans and they were being sold in a kit on Hervey's site for DeLoreans so I went for it.

They are bad for everything. Go down to Autozone and pickup a set of regular spark plugs and gap them to .028. I use NGK plugs and have been very happy with them. I think I've heard other people say the Champion plugs work good too.

[rundmc]

So we're saying the sparkplugs are keeping my car from starting at all?

[TTait]

10 second test - prime the fuel pump a few times, then with the air filter box off lightly press against the diaphragm in the middle of the air intake, make sure it is hard to press down. If not you don't have fuel pressure.

Its unlikely that this is the problem, but for 10 seconds of effort, double check.

Next double check for spark.

[Bitsyncmaster]

So we're saying the sparkplugs are keeping my car from starting at all?

No it's not the plugs.

Give your car a shot of either. That's the quickest way to start it after you have had the fuel system apart and all the lines are dry.

[Jacko]

Check (and double check) the #1 fuse in the fuse block ... a blown fuse there will give symptoms you describe.

[David T]

Since you did so much work at once and messed with both the ignition AND fuel systems you really have to go back over ALL of your work and see if anything is not right. Maybe you put a fuel hose back in the wrong spot, didn't hook up a wire correctly, etc. Just seeing a spark won't tell you that you messed up the timing. One quick test is to squirt a little Ether into the intake. If it does start (or at least pop) you know the ignition is OK, the problem is fuel related.
David Teitelbaum

[sean]

Spark plug discussion moved here:
http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?3517-Spark-plug-discussion***Split-from-engine-car-reassembled-thread***

[deloumis]

Just seeing a spark won't tell you that you messed up the timing. One quick test is to squirt a little Ether into the intake. If it does start (or at least pop) you know the ignition is OK, the problem is fuel related.
David Teitelbaum

I wouldn't judge timing by a pop. The timing and firing order could be off and you may still here a pop. You can verify there is a spark by hearing a spark, but for timing it would have to actually start.

[rundmc]

Buddy and I worked on the problem today for a few hours. I now own a timing gun, but it didn't result in any success yet. Intermittent spark was the result of the gun. We control tested the unit on Buddy's DMC and it worked fine.

We tried jumping the RPM relay. Nothing.

A sparkplug connected directly to the coil produced spark on the block consistently.

We replaced the new rotor with the previous one. No dice. Then we replaced all of the new wires with old wires. This resulted in the engine firing, but not holding. It would die once we let off the gas.

My only option now is to return the original distributor cap to the car and see if it is the cap not properly sending spark to the plugs. I'm sure more experienced DMC mechanics out there will chide this as stupid or novice thought, but I don't have any other recourse. That's the only part of the distributor system left that I changed that hasn't been retrofitted back (aside from the plugs themselves).

And it is evident there is a problem with the engine firing.

[stevedmc]

Maybe it's time for a new ignition coil. It would be easy to swap coils with buddy to see if that's the problem.

[David T]

You probably have multiple problems which you will have to find and correct one-by-one. You seem to have overcome a major one on the electrical side, you probably have "issues" now with the fuel system/air induction. Probably vacuum leaks and maybe mistakes in the routing of vacuum hoses. Make sure the frequency valve is buzzing.
David Teitelbaum

[deloumis]

Have you checked to see if you have good connections on the resistors? If they are loose it could be causing your problem. Its a quick check so it would do you no harm to check. Make sure you have the correct firing order and that the wires are snapping in all the way on the spark plugs. Check your connections on the coil, make sure they didn't come loose.

[stevedmc]

I think someone should just start a new thread and call it:

"CAUTION: DO NOT BUY! DELOREAN DMC12"

It just seems the poor guy has had nothing but problems. So have I, and I'm sure several other people as well. These cars are obviously defective and no one should ever support Delorean Motor Company because of the crap they have produced and are producing.

[rundmc]

The replacement of the distributor didn't solve the issue. As far as the vacuum lines, spark plug wires, fuel hoes routing, etc. go, I have checked, checked and re-checked my work. I diagrammed everything before removal, flagged every hose and numbered them, and put everything back together exactly as I found it. All wires are tightly fitted to the plugs and the cap. All connectors to the coil and resistors have been checked multiple times.

The RPM relay was checked, bypassed. Nothing but crank. The CSV was bypassed. Nothing but crank.

My only other recourse is to disassembled down to the block, remove the manifold and start completely over again.

More than likely before this is over, it will be on a flatbed to DMC Houston or Florida at this rate, which I can't afford to do right now.

[stevedmc]

The replacement of the distributor didn't solve the issue. As far as the vacuum lines, spark plug wires, fuel hoes routing, etc. go, I have checked, checked and re-checked my work. I diagrammed everything before removal, flagged every hose and numbered them, and put everything back together exactly as I found it. All wires are tightly fitted to the plugs and the cap. All connectors to the coil and resistors have been checked multiple times.

The RPM relay was checked, bypassed. Nothing but crank. The CSV was bypassed. Nothing but crank.

My only other recourse is to disassembled down to the block, remove the manifold and start completely over again.

More than likely before this is over, it will be on a flatbed to DMC Houston or Florida at this rate, which I can't afford to do right now.

What city/state do you live in? I'm in need of a road trip.

[DMC5180]

More than likely before this is over, it will be on a flatbed to DMC Houston or Florida at this rate, which I can't afford to do right now.

and within 30 minutes it would likely be running again.

How was it running before you started working on it?

[stevedmc]

and within 30 minutes it would likely be running again.

How was it running before you started working on it?

I really wish people would post their name and location somewhere in their signature or avatar. I'm sure one of us could show up and get him running fairly quickly.

I don't know much about K-Jet but I'm sure I could help the poor guy out one way or another. It shouldn't be too difficult to figure out whether the issue is fuel or ignition.

[rundmc]

and within 30 minutes it would likely be running again.

How was it running before you started working on it?

The ignition was fine. Two or three quick cranks when cold to fire. Instant when warm. Fuel was on the rich side (I had never messed with the mixture screw, but the PO had drilled out the plug so I assume they had messed with it.) The car would hunt at first on cold and warm starts.

To be clear, I didn't mess with the ignition aside from swapping regularly maintained parts. I did not remove the distributor or mess with the timing.

We tested the fuel injectors - they are spraying as they should.

I am in Atlanta. Will put my location on my avatar. Didn't realize it wasn't there.

[stevedmc]

The ignition was fine. Two or three quick cranks when cold to fire. Instant when warm. Fuel was on the rich side (I had never messed with the mixture screw, but the PO had drilled out the plug so I assume they had messed with it.) The car would hunt at first on cold and warm starts.

To be clear, I didn't mess with the ignition aside from swapping regularly maintained parts. I did not remove the distributor or mess with the timing.

We tested the fuel injectors - they are spraying as they should.

I am in Atlanta. Will put my location on my avatar. Didn't realize it wasn't there.

There has got to be an expert or two near you in Atlanta. Don't make me drive out there when there is at least 10 guys within an hour of you.

[rundmc]

There has got to be an expert or two near you in Atlanta. Don't make me drive out there when there is at least 10 guys within an hour of you.

I didn't realize I was making you do anything. Nullset tried to help me last night, so far the car is still dead in the water.

[deloumis]

If you hook up your timing light to the wire going from the coil to the distributor what does it do? What does it do when you hook it up to a spark plug wire? Try hooking it up to the coil wire first, and look at the light. While you crank its should be very steady flashes. Then hook it up to each if your plug wires, and look into the light. Check all wires make sure they are all getting fire.

You said you tested injectors, was this after you had problem starting? You have verified there is fuel? Since you didn't mess with the timing it should be fine.

[LEVY]

Since you have fuel + spark, this is what you need to do:

First, do what Deloumis asked you to do, then check the oil level, if it is way too much oil, drain it and then fill your crankase with fresh oil.

If the oil level seems to be OK, then check the oil viscosity, if it seems to be very thin, drain your oil and replace with fresh oil.

Now, before you even try to start the engine, remove all the spark plugs, then add like 3 to 5 cc of fresh motor oil to each cylinder and crank it up several times without spark plugs. Let it rest a little then crank it a few times once again.

Soak your spark plugs in gasoline and let them dry. Install your spark plugs, attach the wires and crank it up. This time you should be able to start the engine.

Note: You might have to remove your spark plugs once again to clean them if your engine is missing.

Good luck!

Levy

[nullset]

I think the problem is spark.

When we removed a plug, and connected it directly to the coil output (and grounded it on the engine block), the plug would spark reliably every time we tried to start the engine. The timing gun also detected this spark.

When we put the wire back on to the distributor, we would only see spark about 50% of the time while trying to start (using the timing light)

To me, this indicates that the problem is most likely spark related.

Things he's replaced since the last time the car ran:
Water Pump
Rotor + Distributor cap
Plugs + Wires
Injector boots and clips

We pulled one injector, just to inspect it, and it was slooooowly dripping, but sprayed just fine.

There's a possibility that the engine is flooding due to it not starting for other reasons.

Let's suppose it's been sitting for a few hours. We've unplugged the RPM relay, so the fuel pump will not engage.

How do we go about using the starting fluid to verify if the problem is spark or fuel related?

My guess is still spark.

--buddy

[LEVY]

That is the reason why you should change the oil!

If the engine is flooded, the there is the possiblility that a lot of fuel got mixed with the engine oil!

If your engine is badly flooded, then you might not have enought compression to start the engine, that is why I did recommend to remove spark plugs and add some oil into each cylinder. Read my other post.

LEVY>


I think the problem is spark.

When we removed a plug, and connected it directly to the coil output (and grounded it on the engine block), the plug would spark reliably every time we tried to start the engine. The timing gun also detected this spark.

When we put the wire back on to the distributor, we would only see spark about 50% of the time while trying to start (using the timing light)

To me, this indicates that the problem is most likely spark related.

Things he's replaced since the last time the car ran:
Water Pump
Rotor + Distributor cap
Plugs + Wires
Injector boots and clips

We pulled one injector, just to inspect it, and it was slooooowly dripping, but sprayed just fine.There's a possibility that the engine is flooding due to it not starting for other reasons.
Let's suppose it's been sitting for a few hours. We've unplugged the RPM relay, so the fuel pump will not engage.

How do we go about using the starting fluid to verify if the problem is spark or fuel related?

My guess is still spark.

--buddy

[rundmc]

I've torn the engine back down to the valve covers to get at the spark plugs easily. I will be testing for spark without the fuel system on the vehicle. so I can get to everything easily. Removing sparkplugs now to check them.

[rundmc]

Sparkplugs are out and wiped down. Distributor cap is checked - orientation is correct. Seating is correct. Cap is locked tight as before.

Oil is checked - level seems normal. Viscosity seems normal. An oil change was planned at the end of the (first) rebuild anyway. Will add oil to cylinders on next crank attempt with fuel, but in the meantime, I'm going to check for spark while the manifold and K-Jet are off the block and solve that issue first.

[82DMC12]

You need to get the fuel injectors to stop dripping before you do anything else. If they drip AT ALL you have a major fuel problem - either bad injector, CO screw incorrectly set, or binding air meter plate. Fix the injectors before you mess with the ignition.

If you don't know how to check for those 3 things, tell me and I will explain.

Andy


Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

[rundmc]

Thanks to some direct assistance from nullset and with some e-mailed advice from Sean, 6239 came back to life today.

We verified spark separately, and then we reassembled the intake and fuel injection system and found that the car still would not idle. It would crank and die, but this time when starter fluid was introduced, it would fire instantly. (That didn't happen before)

So we figured the mixture settings were off from our misdiagnosis during the last time we tried to repair it. Using Sean's advice to set the mixture screw, the car fired up fine, but it does smell quite rich. When we attempted to adjust it with the dwell, the car wouldn't start again. So we redid Sean's method and the car started again. (Thanks!)

The thing is, the dwell meter says the car is running lean, but the smell behind the engine to my mind says "too rich" which is how it has acted since I've owned it. I had hoped to correct some of that with the new WUR and CAT, however I am hesitant to go playing with the dwell meter and adjust the settings when I could render my car inoperable again. But I also don't want to bake all of my new parts prematurely with rich system...or too lean, whichever is the truth.

Thoughts?

[82DMC12]

How are you setting the mixture screw initially? Have you replaced your lambda sensor? You shouldn't try to set the CO without a fresh sensor.

Did you try all the dwell meter tests printed in the shop manual?

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

[rundmc]

We set the initial mixture screw by watching for spray from the injectors in containers and backing off until they stopped. This was recommended by Sean and worked well. When we attempted the Bosch K-Jet initial mixture method (disconnect fuel line, watch for fuel to rise in the distributor, back off a 1/2 turn) the car would not start.

Yes, the O2 sensor and the WUR are new and have not been driven on. I will review the dwell tests in the shop manual and see what they say.

[82DMC12]

Read section D 04 :15. Use an AA battery to generate 1.5 volts. Do those tests to make sure the lambda control is working.

Backing off the CO screw until the injectors all stop firing at the same time is correct to get 'close'. If the injectors are drippy or don't close/open together then one or more are bad. They need to function in unison. The spray pattern should be extremely fine.

Let me know what you find out.

Andy

[rundmc]

Well, left it sitting for 24 hours, battery disconnected so it would not drain. Came back, car wouldn't start. Bypassed the RPM relay, pump works, car starts. I assume then that my relay might be bad or could it be something else entirely?

[nullset]

Well, left it sitting for 24 hours, battery disconnected so it would not drain. Came back, car wouldn't start. Bypassed the RPM relay, pump works, car starts. I assume then that my relay might be bad or could it be something else entirely?

Interesting….. Did it behave the same as before?

Did you make sure the CSV was spraying?

--buddy

[rundmc]

Didn't test the CSV, mainly because I've been suspicious of the fact that I NEVER hear the fuel pump when the RPM relay is plugged in.

I have a solid state on the way from Bitsync, so I'm going to see if that solves the problem first. By the end of this, I will need a new starter too probably...ugh.

[nullset]

Didn't test the CSV, mainly because I've been suspicious of the fact that I NEVER hear the fuel pump when the RPM relay is plugged in.

I have a solid state on the way from Bitsync, so I'm going to see if that solves the problem first. By the end of this, I will need a new starter too probably...ugh.

I have one you can borrow from Marsha. Want me to bring it by on my way home?

--buddy

[rundmc]

I don't want to leave you in the lurch, and there's no urgency for getting mine back on the road despite my general frustration.

[nullset]

I don't want to leave you in the lurch, and there's no urgency for getting mine back on the road despite my general frustration.

It's my spare anyway, and it's known good. It'll at least let us know if that's a problem while you wait on the other one.

[jawn101]

Good luck guys, and it's great to once again see this community going the extra mile to help each other out.

[rundmc]

Yeah, nullset has always been "the man." Of course, I remind myself I probably scored points with him when I pulled rat corpses out of his second DeLorean during a really brutal teardown of the interior.

[nullset]

Yeah, nullset has always been "the man." Of course, I remind myself I probably scored points with him when I pulled rat corpses out of his second DeLorean during a really brutal teardown of the interior.

Haha. I will never forget that moment…..