Rear Oil Seal replacemnt --- HOW TO ????

[nkemp]

I have oil leaking from what appears to be the rear oil seal. It appears to be coming from where the engine & tranny join. I looked for info on this site for how to do the repair and did not find anything.

- Does anyone have info on making the rear engine seal repair?
- Any recommendations on what seal to use?
- Anything else I should do while making the repair?

Thanks,
Nick

[jawn101]

I have oil leaking from what appears to be the rear oil seal. It appears to be coming from where the engine & tranny join. I looked for info on this site for how to do the repair and did not find anything.

- Does anyone have info on making the rear engine seal repair?
- Any recommendations on what seal to use?
- Anything else I should do while making the repair?

Thanks,
Nick

The transmission has to come out to do it, so that's the best time to do a clutch, TABs, any transmission rebuild work, cleaning the back of your motor, etc.

I haven't done mine yet but in my research into the seals it seems like Hervey has the most modern seal for the job, a double-lip seal with a stainless sleeve. That's what I bought and so far it's doing a great job sitting on a shelf... :)

[nkemp]

More searching recalled that the Wheeler Dealer DeLorean episode did a rear oil seal. And my poor memory causes me to think they did it without fully dropping the tranny. If so, I presume one needs a pretty good idea of what they are doing in there since I presume it is by feel and not by sight.

I have a PRV 3.0L sitting on an engine stand... time to take a looksee.

Nick

[opethmike]

Nope, they most definitely pulled the tranny completely out. There's just no other way to do it. They also did NOT support the axles properly; they just let them hang.

[nkemp]

I watched the Russian dubbed version and it gives a good overview of replacing the seal. I copied the 3 minutes or so as a .swf file for future reference.

He uses an orange seal with about 6 grooves. Hervey has a seal that has two grooves. Any opinions as to which is preferred/better? When I do this I wnat to minimize doing it again. Changing the oils seal takes only a couple minutes. Removing and installing the tranny is the hard part.

Nick

[jawn101]

I watched the Russian dubbed version and it gives a good overview of replacing the seal. I copied the 3 minutes or so as a .swf file for future reference.

He uses an orange seal with about 6 grooves. Hervey has a seal that has two grooves. Any opinions as to which is preferred/better? When I do this I wnat to minimize doing it again. Changing the oils seal takes only a couple minutes. Removing and installing the tranny is the hard part.

Nick

Hervey's advertised seal is orange and I'm not sure where you're getting "two grooves" from... it's a double lip seal but that has nothing to do with the grooves on the outside edge.

http://specialtauto.com/delorean-parts/images/rear-main-seal-w-gasket.jpg

His double lip seals have always done great work for me and I don't expect this one to be any different.

[82DMC12]

I bought one from Grady a few years back. Black Double lip seal plus a spring inside to help keep its shape. Seems to be working fine for me!

[EarlHickey]

I'm now confused about which end of this engine is which. I thought the transmission end was the front, since #1 cylinder is on that end. No?

BTW.... does anyone know the dimensions of the crank seals on the transmission and crank pulley ends?

[deloumis]

I'm now confused about which end of this engine is which. I thought the transmission end was the front, since #1 cylinder is on that end. No?

BTW.... does anyone know the dimensions of the crank seals on the transmission and crank pulley ends?

The "front" of the engine would be the side closest to the rear of the car (unless you are refering to side furthest front of the car). The cylinders are not numbered by crank order like a Chevy engine. More like a ford motor where it goes 1-4 on one side and 5-8 on the opposite. Furthest cylinder on the right hand side is cylinder 1.

Anyone feel free to correct any of my info if I am wrong.

[EarlHickey]

The "front" of the engine would be the side closest to the rear of the car (unless you are refering to side furthest front of the car). The cylinders are not numbered by crank order like a Chevy engine. More like a ford motor where it goes 1-4 on one side and 5-8 on the opposite. Furthest cylinder on the right hand side is cylinder 1.

Anyone feel free to correct any of my info if I am wrong.

Where is it that you are saying #1 cylinder is located?

I'm reasonably sure that #1 is closest to the the passenger seat and transmission with the cam coming out of the block on that end, yet driven on the other end.

If those two things are on the rear of the engine or happen there.... ok, it's good to absolutely determine the nomenclature.

I do see that the manual does show the piston directional "F" arrows pointing to the pulley end of the engine found at the rear of the car.

It is also interesting to note that the industry standard for automotive "right" and "left" seems to be inverted for this engine.

[nkemp]

Part of the confusion is that most engines are mounted "up front". In the D, with the engine in the rear, the engine was rotated 180 degrees. Front & back can get confusing when discussing this car with others.


On a side note, to get the transmission to work rotated in the D, one gear was reversed. If you rebuild the transmission to the manual (from a Fuego) you'll get 5 speeds in reverse an1 speed forward. I know somebody who did that)

[deloumis]

Where is it that you are saying #1 cylinder is located?

I'm reasonably sure that #1 is closest to the the passenger seat and transmission with the cam coming out of the block on that end, yet driven on the other end.

If those two things are on the rear of the engine or happen there.... ok, it's good to absolutely determine the nomenclature.

I do see that the manual does show the piston directional "F" arrows pointing to the pulley end of the engine found at the rear of the car.

It is also interesting to note that the industry standard for automotive "right" and "left" seems to be inverted for this engine.

Yes that is where cylinder 1 is located. I'm not sure what engines your most familiar with, but like I stated Chevy numbers them in correct crank order, Ford numbers them per side like on the PRV. With this in mind, in Ford it doesn't matter where #1 is located, they are not in crank order, like the D, but Chevy does matter. (Unlike Delorean)

[EarlHickey]

Yes that is where cylinder 1 is located. I'm not sure what engines your most familiar with, but like I stated Chevy numbers them in correct crank order, Ford numbers them per side like on the PRV. With this in mind, in Ford it doesn't matter where #1 is located, they are not in crank order, like the D, but Chevy does matter. (Unlike Delorean)


I am familiar with VERY FEW v-engines that have #1 at the "rear" with cams being removed from the same while driven from the "front", especially while the engine's "left side" is on the car's right.

It's nice to have the specifics completely clear.

Thanks

[nkemp]

So the tranny is out, clutch off as is the flywheel. It appears that the engine rear oil seal is not leaking but the rear plate (plate around the seal and output shaft) is leaking. I have the paper gasket but given the trouble getting to that part of the engine:
?1 Is there a better alternative than the paper gasket (such as a liquid type gasket material) ?
?2 Is there a preferred method to install the gasket if there is not a better alternative?

[DMCMW Dave]

So the tranny is out, clutch off as is the flywheel. It appears that the engine rear oil seal is not leaking but the rear plate (plate around the seal and output shaft) is leaking. I have the paper gasket but given the trouble getting to that part of the engine:
?1 Is there a better alternative than the paper gasket (such as a liquid type gasket material) ?
?2 Is there a preferred method to install the gasket if there is not a better alternative?

1 . No

2 - Use Permatex "The Right Stuff" on the paper gasket. Trim he paper gasket to fit before you put the sealant on it.
2A - Use Permatex Anerobic Sealant on the bottom where it seals to the engine girdle without a gasket.

Don't cheat on either of these.

Replace the seal anyway, and make sure the seal is in the housing STRAIGHT.

[jawn101]

1 . No

2 - Use Permatex "The Right Stuff" on the paper gasket. Trim he paper gasket to fit before you put the sealant on it.
2A - Use Permatex Anerobic Sealant on the bottom where it seals to the engine girdle without a gasket.

Don't cheat on either of these.

Replace the seal anyway, and make sure the seal is in the housing STRAIGHT.

This is great info Dave. Is one tube of this (http://www.amazon.com/Permatex-51813-Anaerobic-Gasket-Maker/dp/B0002UEONM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1338332812&sr=8-1 - 50 ml) enough to re-seal the transmission case halves and do this gasket?

[DMCMW Dave]

This is great info Dave. Is one tube of this (http://www.amazon.com/Permatex-51813-Anaerobic-Gasket-Maker/dp/B0002UEONM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1338332812&sr=8-1 - 50 ml) enough to re-seal the transmission case halves and do this gasket?

Yes - but you don't use it on the gasket, just at the bottom of the retainer where it joins the girdle (metal to metal). That tube will do at least two transmissions.

[jawn101]

Yes - but you don't use it on the gasket, just at the bottom of the retainer where it joins the girdle (metal to metal). That tube will do at least two transmissions.

Awesome. Again great info! I probably would have overlooked sealing that part.

[DMCMW Dave]

Awesome. Again great info! I probably would have overlooked sealing that part.

You'd have figured it out real quick the first time you parked the car after running the engine. . . . .

[jawn101]

You'd have figured it out real quick the first time you parked the car after running the engine. . . . .

Haha.. I'm sure I would have :)

So everyone is talking about this Right Stuff... stuff... lately. It seems crazy expensive above and beyond standard gasket makers. I'm sure there's a great reason and since it comes recommended I'll use it, but what's so much better about it?

[nkemp]

1 Use Permatex "The Right Stuff" on the paper gasket. Trim he paper gasket to fit before you put the sealant on it.
2A - Use Permatex Anerobic Sealant on the bottom where it seals to the engine girdle without a gasket.

Don't cheat on either of these.

Replace the seal anyway, and make sure the seal is in the housing STRAIGHT.

? Do you put "The Right Stuff? on one or both sides of the paper gasket?

There is now way I'm cheating anything. I don't want to do this again!

[DMCMW Dave]

? Do you put "The Right Stuff? on one or both sides of the paper gasket?
!

Both sides. Thin!


Haha.. I'm sure I would have :)

So everyone is talking about this Right Stuff... stuff... lately. It seems crazy expensive above and beyond standard gasket makers. I'm sure there's a great reason and since it comes recommended I'll use it, but what's so much better about it?

Because it is simply the only RTV sealant that really works all the time. In the scheme of putting together "Stuff That Leaks", using $12 sealant instead of $5 sealant is irrelevant. One extra teardown due to leaks is worth a lifetime supply of gasket sealer in a shop. You can use it with no gasket at all in applications where the gasket thickness does not matter (I don't generally do this, but some do). About the only place I don't use it is joints designed as metal-to-metal (i.e. transmission case, engine case) which is where we use the Anerobic.

You'll find it is somewhat thicker consistency than normal RTV. It also comes in aerosol or caulk tubes, probably because it would go bad quickly in "toothpaste" tubes. Supposedly you don't have to wait for it to "dry" to run an engine, but I don't push that.

[nkemp]

I used "The Right Stuff" for a metal to metal water pump installation when I didn't have a gasket. Works great. Yes more than you want to spend but it works. That was a couple years ago. I have the "cheeze wiz" style can. I left it plug the end. I just went out, removed the plug, worked the inside of the nozzle tube a bit and out comes fresh workable "Stuff". Now I don't feel so bad about spending on that can. As I understand it, the OEMs use it on the assembly floor.

[jawn101]

Because it is simply the only RTV sealant that really works all the time. In the scheme of putting together "Stuff That Leaks", using $12 sealant instead of $5 sealant is irrelevant. One extra teardown due to leaks is worth a lifetime supply of gasket sealer in a shop. You can use it with no gasket at all in applications where the gasket thickness does not matter (I don't generally do this, but some do). About the only place I don't use it is joints designed as metal-to-metal (i.e. transmission case, engine case) which is where we use the Anerobic.

You'll find it is somewhat thicker consistency than normal RTV. It also comes in aerosol or caulk tubes, probably because it would go bad quickly in "toothpaste" tubes. Supposedly you don't have to wait for it to "dry" to run an engine, but I don't push that.


I used "The Right Stuff" for a metal to metal water pump installation when I didn't have a gasket. Works great. Yes more than you want to spend but it works. That was a couple years ago. I have the "cheeze wiz" style can. I left it plug the end. I just went out, removed the plug, worked the inside of the nozzle tube a bit and out comes fresh workable "Stuff". Now I don't feel so bad about spending on that can. As I understand it, the OEMs use it on the assembly floor.

Oh, cool! I had no idea. I don't mind the cost, as Dave said it's a drop in the bucket and especially when it comes to a major job like this. But when anything costs twice or three times as much as the next comparable product, I always like to ask why :) More often than not the answer is just that you get what you pay for.

[nkemp]

Another question ... The manual says use new bolts for the flywheel. Is this required or is it recommended? What are others doing?

Also, the anaerobic sealant says to use a anaerobic activator. Any thoughts on that?

[DMCMW Dave]

Another question ... The manual says use new bolts for the flywheel. Is this required or is it recommended? What are others doing?

Also, the anaerobic sealant says to use a anaerobic activator. Any thoughts on that?

1 - Not generally done
2 - I have not used it. Good luck finding it.

[DMCVegas]

Haha.. I'm sure I would have :)

So everyone is talking about this Right Stuff... stuff... lately. It seems crazy expensive above and beyond standard gasket makers. I'm sure there's a great reason and since it comes recommended I'll use it, but what's so much better about it?

It's also the equivalent of "Liquid Duct Tape" IMO. It's not just for gaskets on engines, but in a pinch I've put on gloves and squirted the stuff on my fingers to repair vacuum leaks, ripped door seals, and even shoved some in on the front door hinges to fully waterproof my gullwing doors. Many a ghetto car repair I've done involved "The Right Stuff"... Just be aware that this stuff will stick to almost anything and not let go, and even gets into the ridges of your fingers. So wear gloves.

[jawn101]

It's also the equivalent of "Liquid Duct Tape" IMO. It's not just for gaskets on engines, but in a pinch I've put on gloves and squirted the stuff on my fingers to repair vacuum leaks, ripped door seals, and even shoved some in on the front door hinges to fully waterproof my gullwing doors. Many a ghetto car repair I've done involved "The Right Stuff"... Just be aware that this stuff will stick to almost anything and not let go, and even gets into the ridges of your fingers. So wear gloves.

Why do I love the sound of liquid duct tape so much? :lol:

[jawn101]

One other question for the brain trust here - the right stuff comes in black and a grey 'for imports' - any specific difference or reason to get one over the other?

[DMCMW Dave]

One other question for the brain trust here - the right stuff comes in black and a grey 'for imports' - any specific difference or reason to get one over the other?

Got me on that onee, I've never seen it. Maybe it leaves a metric-sized bead of sealant? ;)

[jawn101]

Got me on that onee, I've never seen it. Maybe it leaves a metric-sized bead of sealant? ;)

LOL, I dunno how you can be so funny this early. My eyes are barely open ;)

Black it is then!

[David T]

ALWAYS go by the manufacturer's recommendations. When in doubt RTFM. On many sealants you are supposed to use the correct primer too. In all cases the surfaces must be properly cleaned and prepared. The stuff used on assembly lines is not always the best stuff. In many cases it is more expensive because it must cure quickly. Not as important to a rebuilder. As for the color, it may be a special so they can tell if anyone redid it, only the factory can get certain colors.
David Teitelbaum




LOL, I dunno how you can be so funny this early. My eyes are barely open ;)

Black it is then!

[jawn101]

According to the manufacturer:

http://www.permatex.com/products/motorcycle/motorcycle_thread_compounds/motorcycle_thread_compounds_activators/motorcycle_Permatex_Surface_Prep_Activator_for_Ana erobics.htm

"Speeds cure of Permatex® Threadlockers, Thread Sealants, Retaining Compounds, and Anaerobic Gasket Makers by 50%. Increases threadlocker strength. Recommended for use during cold weather. General-purpose solvent for cleaning and preparing parts and surfaces."

So if it just increases cure speed, it's probably not such a huge requirement. Just be patient and take your time.

[nkemp]

I picked up a can at NAPA. This is no time to be penny wise and dollar foolish (even though the can was $20). If it solves future problems it will be worth every penny. If it does nothing ... well I'm out yet another $20. Besides, I'll use it on the tranny. A couple other forums indicated that the prep was needed for aluminum parts.

Here is an image of what is going on. Note the circles showing the horizontal to vertical potential area for leaks.
10735
From underneath the car (on your back) you cannot see the horizontal surface. Will be doing by feel. I think I'll apply the gasket maker to the engine and the prep spray to the part. That way I have better spray control. I presume that it would not cause any problems from the overspray but ...

[David T]

This link is only useful for Permatex's products. If you use Henkel or Locktite products you need to go by their recommendations. Some products do have things that speed up cure times or work at lower temps for use on assembly lines. Not usually all that important to a rebuilder. Some products require a primer to work properly in certain circumstances. Bottom line is you must go by the recommendations specific to the manufacturer of the product you are using. You should also be using only that product line exclusively and not "mixing and matching" with different manufacturers, just as you should do with painting systems. I like Permatrex's products but I find Locktite's stuff to be better but harder to find and more expensive. Locktite is aimed more at industrial users. Much of their packaging has larger quantities than anyone doing small jobs will need.
David Teitelbaum




According to the manufacturer:

http://www.permatex.com/products/motorcycle/motorcycle_thread_compounds/motorcycle_thread_compounds_activators/motorcycle_Permatex_Surface_Prep_Activator_for_Ana erobics.htm

"Speeds cure of Permatex® Threadlockers, Thread Sealants, Retaining Compounds, and Anaerobic Gasket Makers by 50%. Increases threadlocker strength. Recommended for use during cold weather. General-purpose solvent for cleaning and preparing parts and surfaces."

So if it just increases cure speed, it's probably not such a huge requirement. Just be patient and take your time.

[Blackie]

Hi all,

Does the oil need to be dropped prior to removing the rear main seal retainer?
Thanks

[DMCMW Dave]

Hi all,

Does the oil need to be dropped prior to removing the rear main seal retainer?
Thanks

No. None will come out.

[Blackie]

Thanks Dave

[kings1527]

I think I have the same leak going on. Can you give me a part number on the paper gasket you're referring to? Thanks!

Alex
6575


So the tranny is out, clutch off as is the flywheel. It appears that the engine rear oil seal is not leaking but the rear plate (plate around the seal and output shaft) is leaking. I have the paper gasket but given the trouble getting to that part of the engine:
?1 Is there a better alternative than the paper gasket (such as a liquid type gasket material) ?
?2 Is there a preferred method to install the gasket if there is not a better alternative?