Removing Transmission Fluid and Cleaning Auto Trans Filter

[DeLorean937]

One of my small projects to knock out before DCS was to change my transmission fluid, and diagnose a leak, since I don't know when it was last performed.

I found the issue to the leak, which was a missing washer that fits in between the fluid pan and the fluid pan gasket.

Anyways, I found was that the fluid was pretty clean and the filter looks pretty clean. A shocking discovery was stuck to the magnet on the filter. It was the broken bottom end to a dipstick that read "Cold and Hot". This might be a stupid question but is this suppose to be there to catch more debris? Or am i just lucky to catch this?

Also, I did some research on cleaning the filter, but does anyone think it's worth it? If everything looks clean? Also, we still cannot get the filter, correct?

[DMCMW Dave]

. A shocking discovery was stuck to the magnet on the filter. It was the broken bottom end to a dipstick that read "Cold and Hot". This might be a stupid question but is this suppose to be there to catch more debris? Or am i just lucky to catch this?
?

It means the bottom broke off the dipstick. If your dipstick still has the cold/hot label there, they replaced it. If not, your dipstick is actually too short to be measuring the ATF level.

[Nicholas R]

One of my small projects to knock out before DCS was to change my transmission fluid, and diagnose a leak, since I don't know when it was last performed.

I found the issue to the leak, which was a missing washer that fits in between the fluid pan and the fluid pan gasket.

Anyways, I found was that the fluid was pretty clean and the filter looks pretty clean. A shocking discovery was stuck to the magnet on the filter. It was the broken bottom end to a dipstick that read "Cold and Hot". This might be a stupid question but is this suppose to be there to catch more debris? Or am i just lucky to catch this?

Also, I did some research on cleaning the filter, but does anyone think it's worth it? If everything looks clean? Also, we still cannot get the filter, correct?

I agree with Dave. sounds like your dipstick or your previous dipstick is/was broken.

I'm confused about this leak. You said a missing washer BETWEEN the fluid pan and the fluid pan gasket? I changed the gasket on my auto twice (once for leak, once to clean) and dont know what you're talking about. As far as I know it goes [transmission face]-->[cork gasket]-->[pan]-->[pan fasteners]. Even if you were missing a washer on one of the pan bolts, I doubt it would cause it to leak; after all the bolt is still there. Can you elaborate at all?

Also remember, those bolts for pan are only a few inch*lbs. Any more and you're mess up the cork gasket.

[Dangermouse]

Interesting.

(Sister car here, btw)

Like Nicholas, I have had that pan off a few times recently and know of no washer between the pan and gasket. (There is that funky bracket towards the front of the unit which I am not sure what it does, but you can't get it under the pan)

DMCH's current recommendation is to remove the filter altogether - risk of filter blocking being greater than increased wear on the plates - wonder if this dipstick part could get into the pump. 1 in a million chance, I know, that the tip even came off (or 1 in 9000 perhaps).

[David T]

It is impossible to see if the filter has any debris in it unless it is cut apart. I don't think running without filter is a good idea. If your pan gasket was leaking sticking a washer on the bolt won't stop it. I agree about the dipstick. If the one you have now is missing the broken tip you need to replace it so you can accurately measure the level. I don't think you can get filters anymore so there is a procedure to clean and reuse your old one.
David Teitelbaum





QUOTE=Dangermouse;54112]Interesting.

(Sister car here, btw)

Like Nicholas, I have had that pan off a few times recently and know of no washer between the pan and gasket. (There is that funky bracket towards the front of the unit which I am not sure what it does, but you can't get it under the pan)

DMCH's current recommendation is to remove the filter altogether - risk of filter blocking being greater than increased wear on the plates - wonder if this dipstick part could get into the pump. 1 in a million chance, I know, that the tip even came off (or 1 in 9000 perhaps).[/QUOTE]

[EarlHickey]

Does anyone have detailed pix, preferably with dimensions, of this unobtainable filter?

I have a few catalogs of automotive internals by physical constraint and may be able to find something that will work, or easily made able to work.

[deloumis]

Does anyone have detailed pix, preferably with dimensions, of this unobtainable filter?

I have a few catalogs of automotive internals by physical constraint and may be able to find something that will work, or easily made able to work.

http://store.delorean.com/p-8825-filter.aspx

[dmc10447]

I have the same in my sump pan.

They are spacers rather than washers, they are placed in the holes in the cork gasket and the bolt goes through (thru) them.
I think they are ment to stop the gasket from being squashed out of shape.

I always use a small bit of gasket seal around the cork gasket. Beware do not to use too much, as the excess will be squezed into the sump and can clog the filter! I have found that this is one of the main reasons that the filters get blocked.

Also when cleaning the filter just lift the metal tab that holds the 2 sides together with a screw driver and pliers, clean the inside and gause, then when you put it back together use a hammer to close the metal tab back over. I have 2 Auto's and have found this method the easiest.

[EarlHickey]

I have the same in my sump pan.

They are spacers rather than washers, they are placed in the holes in the cork gasket and the bolt goes through (thru) them.
I think they are ment to stop the gasket from being squashed out of shape.

I always use a small bit of gasket seal around the cork gasket. Beware do not to use too much, as the excess will be squezed into the sump and can clog the filter! I have found that this is one of the main reasons that the filters get blocked.

Also when cleaning the filter just lift the metal tab that holds the 2 sides together with a screw driver and pliers, clean the inside and gause, then when you put it back together use a hammer to close the metal tab back over. I have 2 Auto's and have found this method the easiest.

How are you guys cleaning the filtering element? Squirting it with brake clean isn't going to do much more than chase out the color of the transmission fluid and maybe wash away surface debris. I don't think even a potent ultrasonic will dislodge and vacate trapped microscopic particles which belong in the filter.

I am sure mine will not have it's filter merely "rinsed" nor will it be run without one.

I can't imagine at least not being able to un-crimp it and replace the filtering media.

How long has it been since these filters were available and does anyone have part numbers for them? Dimensioned pix would also be nice.

[EarlHickey]

http://store.delorean.com/p-8825-filter.aspx

Thanks, I overlooked this!

Does anyone have one off that can provide dimensions?

Does anyone have one that they know is stopped solid that would sell it to me?

I can see that it is crimped and that which is crimped, can be un-crimped and maybe even crimped back without breaking or requiring wet welding techniques to prevent burning a fresh new filter unit stuffed inside.

I think the most difficult aspect of un-crimping it would be the three mount holes although I'd like to also see the other side.

I hope somebody cooperative will step up as running partially blocked transmission filters isn't anything any car owner should have to suffer.

I am also certain that an even more interesting solution is close at hand, if nothing readily available truly exists.

[Dangermouse]

The Renault part number is 7700 585 989

As this box was only sold on our car, there is a very low demand for this filter.

[David T]

The filter materiel is just a metal screen. You can't "uncrimp" it. You grind off the edge to separate the covers. Note the placement of each of the parts. Wash and then reassemble. You use a piece of copper tubing split open and wrapped around the perimeter of the filter to "recrimp" it together and then solder the ends. I think it is in the files section on how to do this. Forget about finding this filter, there is NO other application.
David Teitelbaum

[DMCMW Dave]

Something David T wrote about a millenium ago.....

http://dmcnews.com/Techsection/autotransfilter.html

Last time I found one of these filters it was about $80.

[Dangermouse]

So just throwing WAG numbers out there: out of the 6000 cars remaining, say half are autos and say half of those are actually on the road for any actual time. That's 1500 autoboxes and maybe 300 of those are overseas, leaving 1200 boxes in N America. And how many of those actually need a filter?

[dmc10447]

David T


The filter materiel is just a metal screen. You can't "uncrimp" it. You grind off the edge to separate the covers. Note the placement of each of the parts. Wash and then reassemble. You use a piece of copper tubing split open and wrapped around the perimeter of the filter to "recrimp" it together and then solder the ends. I think it is in the files section on how to do this. Forget about finding this filter, there is NO other application.
David Teitelbaum


You state that it can't be done! Have you tried to do it?

I have used this method a number of times to clean the filters and it is much easier than the method using copper tube.



Dangermouse


The Renault part number is 7700 585 989

As this box was only sold on our car, there is a very low demand for this filter.

As far as I am aware the filter is only used in the Renault 4141 automatic transmission. But his transmission has been used in a number of different Renault models in Europe, It was in the Renault 30, the 25, Fuego, and the Espace there may be a couple more that I am not aware of. I don't know if it was used in any other car in America besides the Delorean.

I will take some pictures of the impossible "uncrimp" method over the weekend.

I have rebuilt my gearbox, replacing the brake packs and clutch disks with new and upgraded steels etc, so I think that I know what I am talking about when it comes to filters!

[Dangermouse]

My point was that the 4141 box was only sold in the US with the Delorean. None of the Renault models were ever sold here. Therefore you will not be able to get a filter at any of the US parts supply places (Autozone, NAPA etc). And as DMCH don't carry them, they are effectively not available in the US.

I have looked at Renault parts websites and I have not been able to find them on those sites either, but I am sure if you went into a Renault parts outlet in France, that you could get some.

[David T]

While it is true the transmission was used in other applications, the filter was not. To my knowledge this filter is unique to Deloreans and is no longer being made or supplied by Renault. It may be possible to "uncrimp" the seal but it will be difficult to recrimp it. The copper tubing idea was done so it would be possible for most anyone with a grinder to be able to service the filter. The other advantage is you can do it more than once. Even if you are able to successfully uncrimp and recrimp I doubt if you will be able to do it more than once. BTW, if you do take the filter apart you must be VERY careful to reassemble it in the correct order. Renault had a batch of filters that were not assembled correctly and before it was figured out some transmissions were damaged. Probably another reason (besides the low demand) that they are out of the Delorean filter business. It's great you were able to do your own clutches. You should replace all of the seals and springs too. Be sure to measure and adjust your running clearance and check your line pressure. You should also have the torque converter replaced or rebuilt. Flush the lines and cooler too.
David Teitelbaum



My point was that the 4141 box was only sold in the US with the Delorean. None of the Renault models were ever sold here. Therefore you will not be able to get a filter at any of the US parts supply places (Autozone, NAPA etc). And as DMCH don't carry them, they are effectively not available in the US.

I have looked at Renault parts websites and I have not been able to find them on those sites either, but I am sure if you went into a Renault parts outlet in France, that you could get some.

[Dangermouse]

While it is true the transmission was used in other applications, the filter was not. To my knowledge this filter is unique to Deloreans
David Teitelbaum

That I did not know. I wonder why.

[EarlHickey]

That I did not know. I wonder why.

Ok, IF I had a used bad one (mine is freshly serviced with a new filter and I'm not removing it yet), I would see about making a lifetime fully serviceable unit that could easily be produced in a limited production run. Such a filter would use the micro stainless blanket filtering element and have a rare earth magnet in place as well. These filters are available for automotive and motorcycle applications. Feel free to run with this and make some money. I won't be offended a capitalizing entrepreneur sent me a comp unit for sharing this money making idea.

Short of that, I'd at least like to see about making one that can be screw apart and uses easily replaceable filtering cloth like many auto trans filters use..... and the rare earth magnet.

oh and.... even yet, IF anyone would be forthcoming and share complete and accurate dimensions... again I offered to look though my catalogs of automotive parts by physical constraint and see if anything readily available will work or easily be made to work.

Thus far..... no dimensions.

[dmc10447]

Photo's as promised, it took a bit longer than I thought to take the pictures, only found the time to remove it from the gearbox last week.

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa245/conor007/DSC01881.jpg

Lift up the crimp with a screwdirver to get started then use a snips to lift the rest of the way round.

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa245/conor007/DSC01883.jpg

As you can see there is enough metal to tap the back over with a hammer.

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa245/conor007/DSC01897.jpg

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa245/conor007/DSC01894.jpg

I do not have a spare filter to send you, I hope that these pictures help with the measurements.

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa245/conor007/DSC01895.jpg

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa245/conor007/DSC01893.jpg

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa245/conor007/DSC01887.jpg


It may be possible to "uncrimp" the seal but it will be difficult to recrimp it. The copper tubing idea was done so it would be possible for most anyone with a grinder to be able to service the filter. The other advantage is you can do it more than once. Even if you are able to successfully uncrimp and recrimp I doubt if you will be able to do it more than once.

I have taken this filter apart more than once, so it is possible to do it, it is very easy to recrimp it, just tap the edges back over with a hammer. I recon the uncrimp technique should work many more times before the metal causes any problems. And you do not need a grinder. The copper tubing is a very good idea, but I find this easier.


While it is true the transmission was used in other applications, the filter was not. To my knowledge this filter is unique to Deloreans and is no longer being made or supplied by Renault.

This filter is used with this transmission, and is not unique to Deloreans? I have interchanged many parts from a Renault 30 4141 Transmission when rebuilding my one, including the filter. You are correct that Renault are no longer making or supplying these filters. They are getting very hard to find.


It's great you were able to do your own clutches. You should replace all of the seals and springs too. Be sure to measure and adjust your running clearance and check your line pressure. You should also have the torque converter replaced or rebuilt. Flush the lines and cooler too.

Thank you, and yes all of the seals etc were replaced, running clearences checked and pressures set to the correct psi/bar values.


http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa245/conor007/DSC01697.jpg

I cleaned out the valve chest, body and solonoids I also replaced the govenor with the digital one from DMC.

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa245/conor007/DSC01681.jpg
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa245/conor007/DSC01645.jpg
I replaced the crown wheel and reset all the tolerences etc etc etc.

[Dangermouse]

Nice pics.

I think I might do the same to mine one of these days.

[David T]

The brass screen is all you need to keep the friction materiel from getting to the pump. If you go too fine with the filter media you can starve the pump. There is already a round magnet in the pan to trap ferrous materiel of which you should see very little anyway. The case is aluminum so the only source of steel is the planetaries or the torque converter. The other thing you will find is brass/bronze from the washers and shims. You should not be seeing any aluminum. Friction materiel is a normal result of use. The more use, (mileage) the more friction materiel. Towards the end of the life of the transmission the fluid gets loaded up with all of the suspended particles which eats up the seals so the transmission starts to leak. What we do these days is called "power flushing" where the fluid is circulated externally through a filter to clean out all of the suspended particles. Gets some more life but ultimately when the friction plates in the clutch packs wear enough they will slip and you will have to rebuild the transmission. The other thing that happens is when the friction plates wear a lot you get too much clearance and things start slipping too. I tried to "uncrimp" a filter too. I found it difficult so I developed the brass tube procedure so it would be easier for others to do their own filter. I also had in mind the necessity of having to clean the filter many times because there is no stock of new filters so the ones we have are the ones we will have to reuse possibly many times. As you saw once you opened your filter you cannot see just how much friction materiel can collect inside till you get it apart. When I do a transmission I also replace all of the springs in the clutch packs.
David Teitelbaum

[DMCMW Dave]

Here's one more oddity. See photo. There were some aftermarket filters supplied a long time ago which had the reinforcement screen on the wrong side of the filter. These would quickly choke off the fluid and the trans would quit working.

If you ever happen to come across one that looks like this, don't use it.

10658

[EarlHickey]

If you go too fine with the filter media you can starve the pump.

There is already a round magnet in the pan to trap ferrous materiel of which you should see very little anyway.

You should not be seeing any aluminum.
David Teitelbaum

I've read this many times implied that the R30 pump seemingly is inadequate on it's suction, or lift side.

Upon what exactly do you base this assertion that it is inadequate to lift fluid through reasonable filter cloth/media as most all other automatic transmissions have for many years? Aside from the pick up side orifice of the filter seeming just a bit small, I've not been able see much that supports this assertion. I'm open minded though. Is it the dubious appearing lacking of rigid sealing from the screen to the valve body?

A good transmission can go many miles with very little wear, however, I've never seen any automatic that couldn't wear and/or fail sending grindings and shavings of all it's various internal materials to the sump. What is unique to the R30 that assures it will never send anything other than large bits of lining material to the sump, and never any fine aluminum/steel/bronze particulate in normal use?


Nice pix, and good effort to show dimensions. I couldn't imagine a crimped filter that couldn't be undone easily. For clarity, mount hole centers triangulated to both the sump side and valve body side orifices, with valve body side constraints being most critical along with the same on the valve body, would prove very useful to many that may have a friend with a large stock of various transmission filters. Calipers would prove more useful than a tape measure.

Do you find the sealing of the screen to valve body to be adequate? Just off the hip and intuitively......

It looks to me like it would be easy enough to install some normal and effective filtering media and making a screw together lifetime unit would be only slightly more difficult than sleeping in church. The stainless matt is very free flowing while trapping very fine particles. I'm sure some of you have investigated this by now.


btw...... Porsche automatics are affordable and very robust. I ceased any attempts to procure a spare R30 for tinkering when one fell at my feet and I liked it. So this now has me a little bit comfortably apathetic on the subject. Look on ebay, they are to be had for 500 to 2500 bucks depending on what you want. What's the going rate for a R30? The only thing close to a price I've read here is "that you're not going to like it" and I'll generally believe a person when they tell somebody that. I'm under halfway interested in numbers so sorry to waste anyone's time with rhetorical questions.

[David T]

Those were not "aftermarket". They were Renault parts and I had one and it destroyed my transmission. They can be used if you take it apart and reassemble it in the correct order. I got it from a vender that shall remain nameless. He assumed responsibility and gave me a big discount on the parts to repair the transmission. By now all of then should be out of the parts chain but it is always possible for one to pop up. Maybe an owner has one in his private hoard and doesn't know it is defective. I can tell you this, there are none in any working transmission!!!!!!!! It will wipe it out in short order, less than 500 miles! That is why, if you do take a filter apart it is so important to make sure you reassemble it correctly!!
David Teitelbaum




[

[EarlHickey]

Is this an answer to several of my direct questions?

If so, please try again if you don't mind.

If not, please disregard.


Those were not "aftermarket". They were Renault parts and I had one and it destroyed my transmission. They can be used if you take it apart and reassemble it in the correct order. I got it from a vender that shall remain nameless. He assumed responsibility and gave me a big discount on the parts to repair the transmission. By now all of then should be out of the parts chain but it is always possible for one to pop up. Maybe an owner has one in his private hoard and doesn't know it is defective. I can tell you this, there are none in any working transmission!!!!!!!! It will wipe it out in short order, less than 500 miles! That is why, if you do take a filter apart it is so important to make sure you reassemble it correctly!!
David Teitelbaum




[