seperation near torsion bar area...what to do?

[lamboman]

I noticed the plastic or fiberglass (where weather seal attaches) is seperating slightly under the torsion bar area...looks like the door pushing down on it causes this perhaps?.how can i fix this?some panel bonder and clamp?.

[DMCMW Dave]

I noticed the plastic or fiberglass (where weather seal attaches) is seperating slightly under the torsion bar area...looks like the door pushing down on it causes this perhaps?.how can i fix this?some panel bonder and clamp?.

Watch that space as you have a couple of assistants open and close the doors. It's moving more than you think. I'll bet 90% of the cars are separated like this.

Screws. Unless you take the roof cage off you'll never get it clean enough for panel bonding adhesive to work by itself.

method 1 - Remove roof panel and interior headliner. Carriage bolts through the steel and fiberglass into the interior, cut the bolt-ends off inside. There is enough room to do this above the headliner. This is the only one where you don't mess with the torsion bars.

method 2 - Remove roof panel. Remove torsion bars to relax the force. Large rivets through the steel into the fiberglass while bearing down on the roof cage. I'm not crazy about this one but I've seen it done.

method 3 - Remove the torsion bars and pull the roof cage down using some extension bars in the torsion bar holes. Sheet metal screws through the metal into the fiberglass laterally each side of the torsion bar clamps. This works pretty well as the screws are in shear so that nothing is trying to pull them out.

method 4 - ($) replace the whole roof cage assembly.

[SIMid]

I'm a visual person, any chance for some pics? SO I know what I need to look out for on my D.

[DMage]

I'm a visual person, any chance for some pics? SO I know what I need to look out for on my D.

http://www.deloreanreborn.com/index.php?itemid=96

[jawn101]

Dave - with method 1, I assume you have to put holes through the roof to bolt it down? So you put a nut on the inside of the car under the headliner and cut off the remaining bolt and the nut will fit underneath the headliner OK?

[DMCMW Dave]

Dave - with method 1, I assume you have to put holes through the roof to bolt it down? So you put a nut on the inside of the car under the headliner and cut off the remaining bolt and the nut will fit underneath the headliner OK?

Yes. Thats the version shown on the DMage's link.

[jawn101]

Yes. Thats the version shown on the DMage's link.

In that post, he had removed his torsion bars. So that wasn't necessary to accomplish the bolt-down, they were just out because he had other bracket problems... right?

[82DMC12]

http://www.deloreanreborn.com/index.php?itemid=96

A little off-topic, but when I click on your link, it starts to load the page, then gets redirected to a DeLorean web-ring page. Incidentally I noticed when you go to dmcnews.com it did the same thing yesterday. I'm using Chrome on two different computers, both do the same thing.

Andy

[DMage]

A little off-topic, but when I click on your link, it starts to load the page, then gets redirected to a DeLorean web-ring page. Incidentally I noticed when you go to dmcnews.com it did the same thing yesterday. I'm using Chrome on two different computers, both do the same thing.

Andy

Thanks. Yeah somethings been up with the webring code recently with redirects. Need to figure it out or remove it.

[DMage]

In that post, he had removed his torsion bars. So that wasn't necessary to accomplish the bolt-down, they were just out because he had other bracket problems... right?

I took them out to clean them and retorque them, and also adjusted the passenger door in the process. I don't see why you couldn't do this while leaving them in.

[jawn101]

I took them out to clean them and retorque them, and also adjusted the passenger door in the process. I don't see why you couldn't do this while leaving them in.

Oh right on. Sorry for not addressing my question right to you, I didn't realize it was your blog! So the holes you have to put in for the bolts are far enough inboard of the torsion bars to be certain to avoid nicking them with the drill? :) That's mainly what I'm worried about.

[jawn101]

So just for fun today I took off my T panel for the first time. I noticed a few things.

- The rear corners of the doors seem to "dip" into the body a bit. I am not certain why but it doesn't seem normal. I think perhaps the doors are fine but the T panel is raised somewhat at the rear
- The roof box doesn't seem to be loose at all
- Looking at the epoxy under the roof box and above the rear glass does show a bit of a gap, however
- For some reason my passenger side torsion bar is sticking out of the bracket a little. Not sure why or if that's a problem
- There is a little but not much rust inside the box, at least not that I can see without a scope.
- The T panel seems to be slightly closer to the passenger side than the driver's side. I tried to shift it over a bit but there's no real play in the screw holes.

That all said, I guess it is pretty likely that the box needs to be bolted down... will that fix the dipping rear corners of the doors? Pics attached.

EDIT: Door panels line up beautifully with the fenders. I would go as far as to say they are perfect. And yes I know I need new roof edge seals :) Also, the foam block on the underside of the T panel didn't seem any worse for wear.

[vwdmc16]

I dont see any gap between the box and the underbody. can you get any better pics in the door jam Jon?

I think ill take my T panel off tonight to compare.

[tommyrich]

I did this repair on 2 cars within the last year (mine and a friends). I both cases I used Dave's method #1 with the carriage bolts and it worked out great in both cases. I was wondering if this was becoming more and more of a problem as these cars age?
Tom

[jawn101]

I dont see any gap between the box and the underbody. can you get any better pics in the door jam Jon?

I think ill take my T panel off tonight to compare.

I put it back on already just to make sure I knew how... but you see that shot of the torsion bar brackets and the rear glass? I don't think you should be able to see all that green adhesive. The box should be pretty much flush with the top of the glass, and I think that it was on your car. I remembered how much better it looked than mine from the other day when we adjusted the doors on both.

[DMage]

Your box definitely needs to be bolted down. Then place the t-panel back on and I bet it lines up with your doors better. Bars sticking a bit out if the bracket are OK. Also I did mine inboard of the bars in the pic on my blog so the washer fit in where the roof box curves.

[jawn101]

Your box definitely needs to be bolted down. Then place the t-panel back on and I bet it lines up with your doors better. Bars sticking a bit out if the bracket are OK. Also I did mine inboard of the bars in the pic on my blog so the washer fit in where the roof box curves.

Sigh. Another thing on the list. At least this one isn't too terribly difficult to do. Did you use large fender washers on the inside of the car as well? Seems like a good idea to spread the load. Did you have to do any other prep before bolting, or just drill through and crank down on the bolts? Any risk of cracking the roof or the box or tweaking anything doing that?

[vwdmc16]

we could cut out a nice stainless plate about .090" thick and about a square foot of area to really distribute the load.

[DMCMW Dave]

I was wondering if this was becoming more and more of a problem as these cars age?
Tom

I'll have to give credit where credit is due - Don Steger showed me how to do this (actually method 3), on my own car, probably 14 years ago. I don't think it's a new probem at all. And I have had np problem with mine since.

[jawn101]

What diameter bolts should be used here? Does the type of nut matter? Standard nut or a nyloc?

[DMCMW Dave]

What diameter bolts should be used here? Does the type of nut matter? Standard nut or a nyloc?

I don't think any of that is particularly critical. 1/4" is plenty for the carriage bolts. For the lateral method (3) I use #10 or #12 sheet metal screws. 14 years and holding. . .

Of course someone will probably chime in and declare the bolts should be stainless:hmm:, but since the roof cage isn't, I woudn't see the point.

[82DMC12]

Reading this thread... What exactly is the smoking gun for this failure? Flexing of the roof cage when viewing the back side with the black trim panel removed?

[DMCMW Dave]

Reading this thread... What exactly is the smoking gun for this failure? Flexing of the roof cage when viewing the back side with the black trim panel removed?

First indication is often the sunshade hitting the roof panel when opened, but you can adjust around that. Then you'll hear the roof creak. The real indicator is seeing a gap below the steel above the glass where you can tell it used to be glued. This shows up with the rear screen finisher removed (the plastic trim above the back glass).

For a dramatic view of what is going on, take the finisher off and have someone open and close both doors at the same time. You'll be shocked at how much the cage moves in most cars.

When you pull the cage back into position suddently your roof and sunshade will line up again.

[jawn101]

First indication is often the sunshade hitting the roof panel when opened, but you can adjust around that. Then you'll hear the roof creak. The real indicator is seeing a gap below the steel above the glass where you can tell it used to be glued. This shows up with the rear screen finisher removed (the plastic trim above the back glass).

For a dramatic view of what is going on, take the finisher off and have someone open and close both doors at the same time. You'll be shocked at how much the cage moves in most cars.

When you pull the cage back into position suddently your roof and sunshade will line up again.

OK, so forgive this question then but the roof box isn't on the parts diagrams that I can see. What's holding the front edge down? Is there any risk that this same thing will happen towards the windshield as well?

[DMCMW Dave]

OK, so forgive this question then but the roof box isn't on the parts diagrams that I can see. What's holding the front edge down? Is there any risk that this same thing will happen towards the windshield as well?

Glue

- but since it's not holding against the force of the torsion bars it is much less likely to let go. When the front lets go you generally have a rust problem. I've seen the back pop on otherwise perfect cars with no sign of corrosion. The common cause seems to be that sometime in the past 30 years someone was trying to avoid replacing the door struts. This is also the cause of broken torsion bars.

[jawn101]

Glue

- but since it's not holding against the force of the torsion bars it is much less likely to let go. When the front lets go you generally have a rust problem. I've seen the back pop on otherwise perfect cars with no sign of corrosion. The common cause seems to be that sometime in the past 30 years someone was trying to avoid replacing the door struts. This is also the cause of broken torsion bars.

Huh. Learn something new every day. My torsion bars were dialed waaaaayyyyy down when I got the car, so far that brand new struts barely lifted the doors an inch or two away from the body. DPOs.... :) Thanks Dave!

[vwdmc16]

I got my T panel off, stand by for pics Jon, you may be surprised.

[vwdmc16]

Panel is off

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c396/vwdmc16/dmc/IMG_0269-1.jpg


driver side looks great

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c396/vwdmc16/dmc/IMG_0271.jpg


Passenger too


http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c396/vwdmc16/dmc/IMG_0276.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c396/vwdmc16/dmc/IMG_0277.jpg


I was curious to what lurked under the access panel

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c396/vwdmc16/dmc/IMG_0286.jpg


four giant connections probably haven't seen daylight in 30 years.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c396/vwdmc16/dmc/IMG_0287.jpg



And RUST! my frame was super rust plagued so why shouldnt the roof be too. It doesnt look like serious cancer but there are some big flakes loose


http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c396/vwdmc16/dmc/IMG_0289.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c396/vwdmc16/dmc/IMG_0288.jpg

Also it seems that this has been opened in the last 30 years, somebody has taped up a few wires with tape, I dont like the look of that. all my door electronic work great but now I disturbed it. maybe it wont. might be replacing the roof harness....

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c396/vwdmc16/dmc/IMG_0293.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c396/vwdmc16/dmc/IMG_0296.jpg

[tommyrich]

Glue

The common cause seems to be that sometime in the past 30 years someone was trying to avoid replacing the door struts.

I agree, in both instances the torsion bars were at least 3 notches too tight. Multiply this by two for the left/right bars and it is a significant force.

[82DMC12]

Any point in doing this as preventative measure? I'm interested in Daves option 1. Sounds like cake. Like someone else asked... Do you run the carriage bolts through, put a nut on it, and then grind off what's left of the threads? And it doesn't interfere with the headliner? Anyone have pics of this?

[jawn101]

See, Clint I knew yours looked great when we worked on it... guess it's those perfect doors of yours to thank. We know now that someone was screwing around with mine at some point in the car's life, and must have screwed up the roof box in the process.

DMage, in your blog it said you 'hammered down' the box before bolting it... can you elaborate on that and what you had to do?

[DMCMW Dave]

Any point in doing this as preventative measure? I'm interested in Daves option 1. Sounds like cake. Like someone else asked... Do you run the carriage bolts through, put a nut on it, and then grind off what's left of the threads? And it doesn't interfere with the headliner? Anyone have pics of this?

I would. This is easier to do when the roof is still where it was intended to be.

Cut the excess threads off and spacing is fine.

They are on the other thread (read from the beginning).

[82DMC12]

Cool, I don't think I have this problem yet but it doesn't hurt to go in and do it before I do. Nice thread!

[lamboman]

I think the area i am having problems with is is more center of door area and not really noticible until i push down on the panel to see the seperation.I have a pic attached showing the area where it is happening (where the weather seal is removed) and second pic shows under the torsion bar area forcing the panel down by hand...it is the thin panel part that goes out to attach the weather seal to and it is seperating where there is a factory rubber sealer of some sort.

[DMage]

DMage, in your blog it said you 'hammered down' the box before bolting it... can you elaborate on that and what you had to do?

Just took a rubber mallet to the back of the roof box to push it down. You don't have to but it meant less forceful torquing on the carriage bolts and less of the need for someone to stand above you with a screwdriver holding it in place to 'suck' the roof box down.

[jawn101]

Just took a rubber mallet to the back of the roof box to push it down. You don't have to but it meant less forceful torquing on the carriage bolts and less of the need for someone to stand above you with a screwdriver holding it in place to 'suck' the roof box down.

Interesting. My luck, I will shatter the rear window and then hit myself in the face with a rubber mallet full of embedded glass shards. Guess we'll see how that goes. Thanks for the info :)

[billet351]

Interesting. My luck, I will shatter the rear window and then hit myself in the face with a rubber mallet full of embedded glass shards. Guess we'll see how that goes. Thanks for the info :)


:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e244/billet351/images.jpg

hope these help in that case

Bill

[82DMC12]

Thanks to this thread, I decided to pre-emptively bolt my cage down while I have my T-Panel off. I went to a couple of hardware stores trying to find a bolt-threaded screw that had a low-profile head on it. I believe a Truss-Head screw is what most people use but I couldn't find one longer than 2".

I ended up with this interesting thing...

12899

Super low profile, allen head on top as bonus. Nickel plated. It's 2.75" long. I bought a couple of fender washers and a 1/4" nut to go with it.

Turned out great! I don't think my cage was coming apart but now it definitely won't be going anywhere. One question - as I was carefully cranking the cage and roof together, once it got pretty tight, I heard a fizz-kind of sound that would go for another second after I stopped turning the nut. It kind of sounded like fiberglass compressing but I'm wondering if the rear window adhesive would flex while doing this? I don't think it broke the seal - still looks fine.

1290012901

[Spittybug]

I believe it was Dave S. at DMCMW that told me the best way to ensure these components don't separate was to bolt or screw them together as you have done, but to do it from the rear rather that the top. I took his advice and drilled screws in from the rear and to date have had no problems. Given the hardware you have used, I don't think you'll have any problem either.

[tommyrich]

Very nice find. You might want to add a dab of silicone so they wont allow water to leak on your newly re-installed headliners.
Tom

[82DMC12]

Very nice find. You might want to add a dab of silicone so they wont allow water to leak on your newly re-installed headliners.
Tom

Actually I did put RTV under the washer and under the head, but I wiped it clean. I might lay a thin bead on the outside just to be super sure!

I still have to cut the bolt ends off on the inside.

Andy

[82DMC12]

Also, how should I fasten the flat wires to the upper roof? I tried duct tape and it came down the next day. Maybe I should clean the fiberglass with acetone first.

[jawn101]

Also, how should I fasten the flat wires to the upper roof? I tried duct tape and it came down the next day. Maybe I should clean the fiberglass with acetone first.

I just used duct tape as well, after cleaning the fiberglass with some scrubbing bubbles. It held up OK, certainly long enough to get the headliners reinstalled. Once they're back in it isn't a real issue whether the tape lets go or not.

[DniveK]

I need to do this process in the near future. I was just wondering if you took any tension off the torsion bars before bolting down or did you adjust the bars after the bolt down at all? I would think moving the support that much would effect the amount of torsion needed for proper door adjustment. Seems to me pushing the center down would rotate both the bars slighlty, adding torsion...?

[82DMC12]

I didn't touch the bars but my roof had not yet separated either. If I had major separation I would remove the bars first just to be safe.

[jawn101]

I had seperation of about 1/2" and did not do anything with the bars when I bolted it down. The torsion setting was not affected. Just don't hit the bars with any tools.

[Morpheus]

In the interest of not wanting to put any undue stress or shock on my bars, I removed them when performing this procedure on my previous car. After all, they really aren't all that difficult to remove (assuming you have access to the proper jig, of course).

Better to be safe than sorry, and having that much torque being applied to a roof structure that's being pounded down back into shape is a recipe for disaster in my book.

[Dangermouse]

I only had one at the time I did my roof and took it out. (part of the total procedure was to install a new DS one also)

Failing that, you could release most of the tension by opening the doors all the way (after the T panel is off), including taking off the struts. I.e. beyond the normal open position

You will obviously need two able bodied assistants to hold the doors while you tighten the bolts. I wouldn't trust 2x4s to prop the doors up in this instance as you will be moving around inside the car and one could get loose.

[Morpheus]

You will obviously need two able bodied assistants to hold the doors while you tighten the bolts. I wouldn't trust 2x4s to prop the doors up in this instance as you will be moving around inside the car and one could get loose.

...Which is why I closed my doors whilst hammering my roof back down and drilling the holes. I believe I had just one assistant sit inside and assist with the tightening and hoisted the door to let them back out. 8)

[Dangermouse]

You will obviously need two able bodied assistants to hold the doors while you tighten the bolts. I wouldn't trust 2x4s to prop the doors up in this instance as you will be moving around inside the car and one could get loose.

OK, it was late when I typed this. Sorry for the confusion.

This would really only apply if you take the bars out. With the bars still in, the doors aren't likely to crash closed.

Though it may be worth having the assistants keep the doors fully up while you tighten, to minimize the stresses being applied by the (still installed) bars.

[tommyrich]

I found that hot glue (glue gun) works well with tacking things up on a Delorean (roof ribbon cable, vapor barriers on the doors, etc.)

As far as removing the torsion bars, I didn't and didn't think it was necessary as the bolts will pull down harder than the torsion bars are pulling up. However, it is likely that over-torqued bars may have contributed to the problem of the roof seperation and should be re-adjusted at the end of the clamping procedure.
In both cases of roof separations that I have seen, the the Pevious Owner adjusted the torsion bars to compensate for weak struts. When the struts were replaced the doors flew open, bouncing dramatically at the top.

BTW, the roof separatoin can cause the torsion bars to be mis-aligned and contact the rear door hinge, which can cause the bars to snap. So make sure you put a piece of hose, or tie-wrap over the bar next to the hindge.

Tom

[sdg3205]

2510's louvre was catching on the back of the T-panel. Looks to me like there is at least some separation happening here.

I'm going to go ahead and do the carriage bolt fix, even if just as a preventative measure.