Help dropping tranny

[nkemp]

Does anyone have insight/experience dropping the transmission (5-speed)?

I have removed
- 4 bolts connecting the tranny to the engine
- clutch line
- bolts at tranny brackets up front
- drive shafts
- starter
- parking brake


I have not removed the two shields (not sure how to get the lower one off while the tranny is in the car.

The shift cable mounting bracket is still secured.

The tranny feels like something is still bolting it to the engine. It does not work loose.

?1) can the tranny be removed without the shields being removed first
?2) Is the shift cable bracket only secured to the tranny?
?3) any ideas what is holding it firm?

Separating the tranny from the engine was a LOT easier when I did the frame off restoration and the engine was on a dolly!

[deloumis]

Does anyone have insight/experience dropping the transmission (5-speed)?

I have removed
- 4 bolts connecting the tranny to the engine
- clutch line
- bolts at tranny brackets up front
- drive shafts
- starter
- parking brake


I have not removed the two shields (not sure how to get the lower one off while the tranny is in the car.

The shift cable mounting bracket is still secured.

The tranny feels like something is still bolting it to the engine. It does not work loose.

?1) can the tranny be removed without the shields being removed first
?2) Is the shift cable bracket only secured to the tranny?
?3) any ideas what is holding it firm?

Separating the tranny from the engine was a LOT easier when I did the frame off restoration and the engine was on a dolly!

Did you remove the starter? I could be wrong but I believe there are 6 bolts connecting engine and tranny.

[nkemp]

The starter is removed.

I checked with a 3.0L engine I have at it appears that there are 4 bolts and 2 guide pins.

[sean]

I have not removed the two shields (not sure how to get the lower one off while the tranny is in the car.

?1) can the tranny be removed without the shields being removed first


Need to remove them. Patience and a narrow wrench will get it done.

[nkemp]

Need to remove them. Patience and a narrow wrench will get it done.

Patience may be the operative word. As I back off the lower shield bolts (by finger), they bump up against the frame and can't come out all the way.

I've loosened all the shield bolts (2 bolts each on 2 shields) and the tranny is still not moving.

[DMCMW Dave]

Patience may be the operative word. As I back off the lower shield bolts (by finger), they bump up against the frame and can't come out all the way.

I've loosened all the shield bolts (2 bolts each on 2 shields) and the tranny is still not moving.

The shields are attached to the trans and wrap around the flywheel so they absolutely cannot be left in place. Loosening is not enough.

That bottom shield has to be gone. Lift up on the engine a bit (loosen the engine mount nuts if need be) and get the screws the rest of the way out. You won't be putting them back in, so brute force can be used.

[jawn101]

You won't be putting them back in, so brute force can be used.

I'm about to start looking at this job as well... what do you mean by this, Dave?

[DMCMW Dave]

I'm about to start looking at this job as well... what do you mean by this, Dave?

Run the screws all the way out against the frame. Depending on how bad your engine mounts are, that generally has all the threads disengaged but the bolts are locked between the hole and the frame. That is why lifting the engine slightly can help. A hammer and chisel will knock them out when you hit this case. This is one of those "do it at your own risk" deals, if you crack something don't come crying to me. The bolts need to be all the way out.

[jawn101]

Run the screws all the way out against the frame. Depending on how bad your engine mounts are, that generally has all the threads disengaged but the bolts are locked between the hole and the frame. That is why lifting the engine slightly can help. A hammer and chisel will knock them out when you hit this case. This is one of those "do it at your own risk" deals, if you crack something don't come crying to me. The bolts need to be all the way out.

Oh, I meant by 'not putting them back in'

I'm actually trying to figure out what shields you guys are even talking about, looking over all the parts diagrams.

[nkemp]

The part causing problems is #16 at http://store.delorean.com/c-380-4-1-1-gearbox-casing.aspx

If like mine, the engine needs to go up an inch or more to clear the frame.

This is one of those jobs I start and come to regret.

Nick

Also, the other shield is the one with the flywheel sensor mounted to it. #15 on the drawing.

DAVE: there are only 2 shields to remove... correct?

[DMCMW Dave]

Oh, I meant by 'not putting them back in'

I'm actually trying to figure out what shields you guys are even talking about, looking over all the parts diagrams.

They are dirt shields to keep road crap and fingers out of the flyweel. Nice idea in a Renault, but completely redundant with the DMC frame being right there, and the engine facing the wrong way.

The side one is easier to re-install and optional, the one behind the starter is a spacer and is 100% required.

[nkemp]

I got the lower shield bolts out (PITA) but the tranny still feels like it is bolted to the engine. I used a prybar but no happiness.


For those reading this and contemplating the same problem getting the shield bolts out, I loosened the muffler brackets because it was exerting force on the fascia as I raised the engine high enough for the shield bolts to clear the frame. I was able to get the bolts backed out all the way. I did this with a wrench and doing something someone should never do... put my hand between the engine & frame while the engine was lifted by the jack. Tells you what kinda mood I'm in.


My take is once the 4 tranny bolts are removed and the front bolts are removed the tranny should slide forward. The other stuff is for clearance and disconnect reasons. Correct?

What else could be holding it tight?????????????????

Nick

[DMCMW Dave]

I got the lower shield bolts out (PITA) but the tranny still feels like it is bolted to the engine. I used a prybar but no happiness.
[INDENT]
[COLOR=#8b4513]My take is once the 4 tranny bolts are removed and the front bolts are removed the tranny should slide forward. The other stuff is for clearance and disconnect reasons. Correct?

What else could be holding it tight?????????????????

Nick

There are two press-fit alignment pins between the engine and trans. When they get rusty they get sticky. You will probably need prybars now. Carefully.

BTW if you are trading engines/transmissions always be sure the dowels go back in- - they may go with the engine or the trans.

[nkemp]

I've applied a LOT of prybar pressure but nothing. The engine and transmission is all moving. It is dragging my sorry, 190lb arse across the floor as I apply pressure. As before it is as if they were still bolted together.

Is it possible that the drive shaft is frozen and that is what is holding it together?

I had these separated in the late 90's when a new centerforce clutch was installed. It came apart fine back then.

BTW ... there are 4 bolts holding the lower shield.

[82DMC12]

Not sure what to tell you Nick but I know you will get it!

[nkemp]

I'm tempted to pull the whole engine and tranny and work on it in the open. I'm getting worried that I'll not be driving it this year.

Nick

[DMCMW Dave]

I've applied a LOT of prybar pressure but nothing. The engine and transmission is all moving. It is dragging my sorry, 190lb arse across the floor as I apply pressure. As before it is as if they were still bolted together.

Is it possible that the drive shaft is frozen and that is what is holding it together?

I had these separated in the late 90's when a new centerforce clutch was installed. It came apart fine back then.

BTW ... there are 4 bolts holding the lower shield.

I've seen input shaft get sticky in the clutch but you would also have driving problems. You'll also see the engine separate a bit and then pop back. We've had one or two like that, and it took persistence is about all I can say. Where are you prying? Do you have the intake off the engine by any chance? That can sometimes give you more to pry on from above.

Yes - but only two of the bolts are the problem....

[nkemp]

I'm prying from underneath. The prybar is wedged between the shield and the housing and leveraging off the frame below. Much like was on the video.

[DMCMW Dave]

I'm prying from underneath. The prybar is wedged between the shield and the housing and leveraging off the frame below. Much like was on the video.

You need to find a place to pry between the engine and the trans rather than the frame and the trans. At this point you are deflecting the rubber mounts.

[nkemp]

Do you have the intake off the engine by any chance? That can sometimes give you more to pry on from above.

Yes - but only two of the bolts are the problem....

Does prying from above allow prying between the engine and the tranny? If so, I know what I'm doing tomorrow.

Also ... The shield did not release until all four bolts were removed. I had to jack up the engine to get all four out.

[82DMC12]

I had my clutch replaced at a tranny shop in town here way back. I'm surprised they didn't say anything about those shields or rocking the engine. The next time I touched my MT, the drivetrain was on a dolly.

[Spittybug]

I had issues putting them back together more than taking them apart, but the physics is the same..... I found that I really needed to put the jack under the engine at the extreme rear of the car and jack it up a couple of inches at least, tilting the flywheel end downwards. This changes the alignment with the tranny and makes slipping the shaft into the clutch etc doable. The friction that exists right now may be just too much for a clean separation given the less than ideal force that you can apply. Try it, can't hurt. You'll certainly need to do this for reassembly.

[nkemp]

I just tried with a construction type crowbar levered against the frame and no happiness. Yes, the engine is moving in the engine mounts but the force exerted is still significant.

I also searched the web and found discussions of manual transmissions stuck to the engine. For the most part, they say "pull harder". Some use a come-along connected to the rear axle (in that case it was a truck). The more drastic suggestions are busting the bell housing or cutting holes to get inside and release the bolts.:frown:

Plan B.......
- Step one, pull the intake manifold and see if I can get a better leverage point from on top
- Step two, pull the engine & tranny assembly and work on it outside the car. Trouble here is that I loose the weight of the car to pull against.

And all this to change a leaky seal!

[jawn101]

And all this to change a leaky seal!

Damn that rear main seal!! That is my entire reason for starting this project as well. FWIW, we are just planning to pull the whole motor/trans assembly as a lump and work outside the car. It will give us easier access to do the separation, as well as a once in a lifetime opportunity to clean the back of the motor and the engine cradle.

[nkemp]

In the late 90's, I did a frame off restoration ... frame rust. With the engine out, the two separated and went back together without any problems. So yours may come apart without the issues I'm having... at least I hope so.

[DMCMW Dave]

I just tried with a construction type crowbar levered against the frame and no happiness. Yes, the engine is moving in the engine mounts but the force exerted is still significant.

I also searched the web and found discussions of manual transmissions stuck to the engine. For the most part, they say "pull harder". Some use a come-along connected to the rear axle (in that case it was a truck). The more drastic suggestions are busting the bell housing or cutting holes to get inside and release the bolts.:frown:

Plan B.......
- Step one, pull the intake manifold and see if I can get a better leverage point from on top
- Step two, pull the engine & tranny assembly and work on it outside the car. Trouble here is that I loose the weight of the car to pull against.

And all this to change a leaky seal!

There are holes in the bellhousing where the dowel pins are. Spray your best penetrant in them.

10429

[nkemp]

I went for a bicycle ride to blow off some energy and was pondering the same thing. I was also wondering if my favorite Dr. would lend me his flex-sig so I could see better in there.

Nick

[82DMC12]

Nick, harbor freight has inspection cameras for about $90. I bought one a month ago. Pretty cool and works well. The flex of the tube is limited so you cant do tight, deep bends.

[nkemp]

Currently applying penetrating oil to the studs.... and w a i t i n g for it to work.

The local transmission shop suggested:
- Heat as in flame. The fear of fire concerns me since there is a lot of oil & grease in the area and the studs are not very accessible.
- He also suggested cleaning the studs and using grease on them when I put it back together.

The latter is good advice for anyone who is pulling their transmission!

No I'm going to go and wait ...which I don't do well

Nick

[nkemp]

Happiness achieved today :partyhat::partyhat:

Over the last days I've been applying penetrating oils to the two pins. But when I tried to separate this morning no luck (other than bad). I bought Freeze Off (I think that is the name), a penetrating oil spray that freezes the target. When chilled, the part shrinks allowing the oil to penetrate. I sprayed each pin 20 seconds or more and 10 -15 minutes later It came apart. Is it a "miracle drug"? Can't say for sure but there is no arguing the progress. Tonight, with help, the tranny comes down.

BTW ... the tranny shop also advised why it is important to support the tranny while removing. If it is not supported, it can bend clutch components resulting in a noisy clutch. FYI.

DAVE, Thanks for the photo! It made it easier to visualize what & where. I could see the holes for the guide pins from the tranny end which allowed the application of the penetrates. Eventually they got so clean that they became obvious. Again, THANKS!

Nick

[82DMC12]

Love a happy ending!

[dmc6960]

So are you going to have it put back together for the BTTF showing in Osceola next friday? You have 8 days from right now.

[TTait]

Glad I misunderstood the topic of this thread.

I was going to suggest doing it in a public place in case he got mad...

[dvonk]

...I bought Freeze Off (I think that is the name), a penetrating oil spray that freezes the target. When chilled, the part shrinks allowing the oil to penetrate...

this is the first ive heard of this product. i think ill give it a try the next time i have a rusted fastener. the scientist in me loves the thermodynamics involved. :biggrin:

[DMCMW Dave]

this is the first ive heard of this product. i think ill give it a try the next time i have a rusted fastener. the scientist in me loves the thermodynamics involved. :biggrin:

It's probably a can of pure R12. . . .

[dvonk]

haha, ill definitely be reading the label before i buy it... both to learn safe usage and to satiate my own curiosity. :)

[nkemp]

Freeze-Off (the automotive product, not the wart remover version) is a combination of penetrating oil and some form of cooling agent. Before I read the contents, I was planning on freezing then applying somebody else's penetrating oil. But with both in the same can, it is a one step process. Based on this job, it will be worth having on-hand in the garage. (my next garage will have a hoist!)

If you didn't want the penetrating agent, maybe the wart remover version would be worth trying.

[nkemp]

in case he got mad...

Vehicles...I have 5 cars & 3 bicycles. Other than two bikes I don't use, they all need work... and none of the projects are going as planned. But progress is slowly being made. Saving the fuel pump replacement in the wife's till last
(bad sender so no gauge response... the whole assembly is similar design to the new DMC design so I'll have another sump to play with).


So are you going to have it put back together for the BTTF showing in Osceola next friday?
Ahh ... part of the frustration... I REALLY wanted to make that event. Now that the tranny is out, and considering the effort, it begs the question of what else to do (2nd roll pin, checking the shaft nut, seals....). As such I fear another part of summer not driving the car BUMMER!

Besides, with self diagnosed ADD (ADHD after a cup of coffee or Mountain Dew), there are no shortages of things to do... Oh look, a bright shinny object...gotta go check it out ....

[Spittybug]

Now that the tranny is out, and considering the effort, it begs the question of what else to do (2nd roll pin, checking the shaft nut, seals....). As such I fear another part of summer not driving the car BUMMER!

Given that it is already out, I would wholeheartedly recommend doing a thorough check. (this from a guy that had to do it "unexpectedly" after the shaft nut blew out of the case).

LOT'S OF PICTURES. Not just for your reassembly, but please make a how-to for others
Get the right Permatex(?) anaerobic sealer for resealing the case. Dave S. has the info you need
When opening case, don't use a screwdriver or anything metal on the lips. The case can be a bear to split, but patience, wood and creative use of "backwards" clamps gets it done
MORE PICTURES -which way did that nut and bolt face????
Beef up the roll pin by putting another one inside it.
Check that the shaft nut is still securely tightened. If the flat of the nut is still hammered down onto the flat of the shaft, you are in great shape. Don't mess with it. If not, tighten to spec, Loctite, hammer it.
Check out the inner workings.....very cool.
I found a spring in mine that had totally been eaten up. I had to replace it.
When putting back together, be very sure the lips of the two sides of the case are clean, clean clean and that you haven't introduced any scrapes to them. Use the correct, thin film sealer.
Degrease and paint that puppy if you want. Don't powder coat, apparently that would warp it. A nice light color will allow you to see any leaks that may materialize. I use Marine Clean from POR-15 as a degreaser and it is the best damned stuff in the world. USE GLOVES or you will mummify your hands.
Once back in car and driven a while, go back and retorque the case bolts. The transmission gets very hot and expansion and contraction "settles things". Retorque and you won't leak.


Sounds worse than it is, and in reality all of the above can be done in an afternoon easily. Don't forget the pics!

[nkemp]

Spittybug ... Thanks for the input & details!

My debate is DIY or take it to someone. If it is take apart and reassemble job I'm more likely to DIY. If it requires adjustment I'm more prone to take it somewhere. So what did you guys do? What do you suggest?

[nkemp]

Clutch Alignment tool. I have one but I can buy one and have it delivered before I can find it. When I looked online in the Bay I found alignment tools from $3.68 delivered to about $20 delivered.

Dorman makes one and the compatible model is 14505 (per their website it fits the Volvo equiv of our engine)

There is also a IMC 157 32001 555 model that should fit (99% confident and the one I ordered). I crossed it to compatible alignment tools. The Dorman indicates that it fits the Mazda 626 or the ford Probe (years not provided)

The size is:
O.D. :15/16"
Splines :22

If I'm wrong I'll post a followup but I wanted to document for others before I forget to.

Also... I've not pursued it but per chance either could/may have a tranny that works (adapter plate may be required). The splines match. Bolt pattern & case shape and shaft length unknown. Outputs unknown. Just a thought.

[Spittybug]

I didn't have any adjustments to do on my transmission. Definitely DIY, especially if you have a nice clean workbench, a camera and the interest.....

[nkemp]

F:06:03 Manual Transmission - Unit Reassembly mentions adjusting the preload on the differential.

When you took the tranny apart did you do it in such a way that the differential stays assembled?

Or to put it another way, can you separate the two halves while keeping most stuff assembled and get access to the roll pins and the "nut"?

Doesthe question make sense?

[DMCMW Dave]

Just don't unscrew the side adjuster (crown) nut.

[nkemp]

The clutch alignment tool did not fit... too large -Tool # IMC 157 32001 555

I rechecked the crossref info but none the less it does not fit.

[Ron]

Dumb question maybe but did you check if it fits the old one?

I've never had to on a D before, but I've had good luck using a deepwell socket on an extension more than once...

[nkemp]

Dumb question maybe but did you check if it fits the old one?

Not quite sure what you are asking..."if it fits the old one?". What old one?

The socket is a good idea and will give it a try. I suppose I could go through ALL the boxes of stuff I've collected over the years and see if I can find the old one. For the few bucks it was I thought I'd try the one that does not fit.

[82DMC12]

Nick, I have an alignment tool.

Andy

[nkemp]

So I wimped out and took the tranny to a local transmission shop. The roll pin was fine but will be reenforced. The 5th ggear nut was loose but not terribly loose. Chalk one more 5-speed up to having loose nuts.

Question... best I can tell herein they should use the anaerobic sealer to create the gaskets... correct? They seem to think silicone is better.

[DMCMW Dave]

Question... best I can tell herein they should use the anaerobic sealer to create the gaskets... correct? They seem to think silicone is better.

Silicone will leak. Every time.

[David T]

So does Hylomar. I won't use that stuff again! The right silicone will work. There is NO gasket between the case halves and you must not use one, you will mess up bearing clearances.
David Teitelbaum




Silicone will leak. Every time.

[DMCMW Dave]

Permatex anaerobic .

[nkemp]

Here are some procedure related thoughts for future reference:

When splitting the tranny, get a new input shaft seal. Yours may not be a problem but they are relatively inexpensive given that the Tranny is open. Mine did not leak but was not as pliable as a new one.
The guy at the auto store says there is a tranny bracket that fits a floor jack. I have not seen but it sounds like it would make removal and installation easier. It keeps the tranny from rolling.
When the tranny is not attached to the engine, the engine will pivot on its mount. This is problematic when reinstalling the tranny since you cannot get it aligned. Use another floor jack to push up around the oil pan and reorient the the engine. The tranny goes in a LOT easier when the engine is in the correct orientation.

That said, maybe the tranny would have come off easier if the engine was supported to prevent pivoting? Hmmmm.


I had troubles keeping the throwout bearing properly positioned on the clutch fork while I tried to position the tranny against the engine. It kept coming off the fork. To remedy, position the bearing on the shaft and fork. Push it in (towards the tranny) as far as can be and use zip ties to secure the fork in that position (the Master Cylinder willpush it back out f not secured). The zip ties must be outside the bell housing and I tied them around the master cylinder. When the fork is pivoted most of the way towards the tranny (away from the clutch) the bearing stays on better. After the tranny is bolted to the engine, cut the zip ties to release the clutch fork making it workable.
My rear main oil seal was not leaking around the ring seal. It was leaking around the housing.
If the clutch pivot arm is in bad shape, now is the time to replace. Mine was in pretty good shape but went with a cleaned up & plated one from specialtauto.com
After cleaning the alignment pins, I put neverseize type stuff on the alignment pins to help reduce future seizing.
Check the drive shaft CV boots for cracking. One of mine was split. I replaced both and was surprised at how thick the grease was. Well worth doing or having done. I did it myself and it is a MESSY job. I did not disassemble the CV joint, just degreased and regreased.
I used a little black RTV around the CV boot and the shaft & CV housing to help seal the joint. This is more important on the Bigger end than the far end.
In the late 90's I took the frame out of the car and had it repaired and powdercoated. If yours is rusting and with the tranny out you may want to do some repairs like powdercoating the brackets and mounts. If your epoxy shows any sign of bubbling underneath, it may be rusting and the epoxy will easily chip off.


I did not split the tranny myself. I used a local tranny shop. For me I think it was the right choice. You choice may differ.

The nut on the end of the shaft inside the tranny was loose on mine. Not a lot, but loose. I've heard reports form others that the nut can actually work itself off and push through the tranny housing. In some ways, I was glad mine was loose since it justified the expense and effort.

The roll pin in mine was fine. None-the-less it is reenforced now.

I used a floor jack to remove and reinstall. The tranny wants to roll on the jack and if it fell off onto you it could kill. The car was on jack stands/blocked and as such I spent most of my time on my back. Not the easiest way to lift & move the tranny.

To remove and install, I had one son on the jack and the other under the car to help. Nobody was injured :-)

Would I do take it out and reinstall it myself again? Right after the tranny was finally attached I would have said NO. But time has a way of making you dumber and as such I probably would. It is not easy but definitely doable.

How does it run? I have not driven it yet... that should be in a couple days.

[David T]

Don't forget to remove the oil BEFORE removing the tranny (ask me how I know!) and do not forget to put it in before driving the car! If your C/V boot had to be replaced you should just do all 4. Taking the joints apart is not that big a deal, it makes it easier to get all of the old grease out and the new stuff in. Be careful not to bend the outer flange on the large end by letting the shaft hang loose. I don't like silicone on the C/V boots, when you tighten the clamp they tend to want to slide off the lip of the flange. If everything is properly positioned and you have the right clamps, when you tighten them up they won't leak. Using a floor jack you DO need an assistant to hold the tranny on the jack so it won't roll off. It WILL hurt and leave marks! The motor MUST be supported during tranny removal and installation. Check and readjust the shift linkage. Replace any worn rubber bushings. Make sure the shop set up your backlash on the final drive as per the Workshop Manual.
David Teitelbaum