Delorean in Kansas City with 351 and Pantera trans.

[Joseph]

Hello, about a year ago I met an elderly man here in KC with an amazing car. I posted pics of it on here back then.. are the pics still on this website somewhere? This special D has quite a history, from being commissioned by a wealthy businessman to being owned by a famous country western singer, it even spent some time in the Country Music Hall of Fame. I stop by and start it up for him from time to time (the clutch is to heavy for him) the odometer shows 9k original miles. When I first met him he was playing around with the idea of selling it but his $ was just too much. Now his health is failing and he is ready to let it go at a reasonable price. I will try to find the pics I have and post them. Anyone interested in getting in contact with him let me know. I might post it to Ebay in a week or so for him. BTW, this thing is a beast! Thanks, Joe.

[Chris Burns]

I remember that one well!

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?3700-Anyone-remember-this-Delorean-from-the-old-DMC-Talk-351-V8-powered-Delorean&highlight=delorean+cleveland

It's a legend on this forum:thumbup:

[Nicholas R]

Do you have any photos of the panterra transmission? Is it the ZF transmission?

[Joseph]

It is a Pantera Trans, not sure which one, there is a mountain of paper work with details from the company who did the conversion.1158311584115851158611587

[Joseph]

It's 1911 original miles.

[Chris Burns]

That is freaking awesome!:biggrin:

[Joseph]

I will try to load it up, I filmed it starting it up. The sound is unbelievable! The ground shakes.

[outatym2001]

Hi Joseph.
You may want to post the video of the 351 cubic inch V8 powered DeLorean on Streetfire.net. That is where I posted the video of Super D. My boring 1 minute 08 second video is 87MB. You can upload it for free. I had to choose Exotics for the category since the DeLorean didn't fit in any other. My video has had 9,288 views so far since January 29, 2012.

By the way if you take pictures for the owner hopefully get some decent pictures of the underside of the body and frame. And also under the front and under the rear to show how perfectly clean it is. Those suspension arms are mild steel and are prone to rust. The wheel hubs are aluminum and won't rust or course.
DeLorean Supercharged with Stage III
http://www.streetfire.net/video/delorean-supercharged-with-stage-iii_2367591.htm

[Joseph]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Delorean-Pantera-running-gear-One-kind-Former-museum-car-/320937793847?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item4ab9621937 Okay, he had me list it on ebay. He wants $50.000 for it, May sound steep but he was asking 80k a year ago. Also comes with several photos/memorabilia from from the original owner. This car has some history!

[Chris Burns]

Wow! That is an interesting Delorean. Other than some rust on the exhaust it doesn't look too bad!

[Farrar]

Can someone please define "original miles" for me? Is that "original" as in "the car was driven X number of miles since new," or "original" as in "the car was driven X number of miles before the engine swap," or "original" as in "the car was driven X number of miles after the engine swap"? I am confused. Thanks in advance.

[Joseph]

The car has 1911 original miles from the factory, it had about 900 miles when the conversion was finished.

[Farrar]

The car has 1911 original miles from the factory, it had about 900 miles when the conversion was finished.

Thanks! :)

[Dangermouse]

(As this is in the General Discussion forum, and not the "For sale" area, I guess we can comment on the ad....)

Joseph,

the car is an 83, not an 82 as listed in the ebay ad. Not that it really makes a lot of difference.

The ebay listing says that the transmission is a 4-speed, yet the car retains it's original DMC 5-speed pattern gear shift. Can you clarify.

If you know who the "famous" owner was, I would suggest naming him.

The wiki entry for the pantera shows the engine as 330HP output. Can anyone confirm that?

Based on the carfax report, this car has only traveled 136 miles in 16 years, that's 8.5 miles per year, so anyone buying it will have to overhaul a lot of the seals, gaskets, rubber boots, grease etc on the running gear, bodywork etc. New tires, expansion tank, fluids flush etc, etc etc (read $, $$, $$$)

With all due respect, and IMHO, asking $50k for this car, in this condition is unrealistic. (I would hardly call it "reasonable"). Perhaps when it has been gone through and been "refurbished" it could attain that amount.

But that's just my opinion.

[Joseph]

As far as the year..like I said I'm not an expert, I was just asked to list it for him since he's not to familiar with computers. Any interest in the car will be handed over to him and he can answer all questions. Also the pics were taken last year and although the car appears to be dusty. It does get driven on a regular basis, just not to far. It starts right up, shifts through all gears perfect and doesn't leak or burn a drop of oil. This is a very nice car with no issues other than the original tires are old and dry. As for the famous owner..I will let the old man tell you the story. He was a music promoter in the 50s, 60s and 70s. He is very well known in Nashville is all I can say. The car comes with a mountain of pics and paperwork with all of its previous history. 50k may sound steep...but try and find another, better yet try and build this one of a kind today with this much workmanship. Oh and start with a car with 1900 original miles. You can't do it for this price! Even the dash panel was professionally redone. No corners were cut on this car.

[Joseph]

As for the singer this car has ties to..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Jimmy_Dickens
Also it is an 83,
And it is a 4 speed.

[Jim D]

You really need to advertise who the "famous country music owner" was or is. A celebrity as the owner might increase the value the car, depending on who it is/was.

[ccurzio]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fm2iNNqj2fQ


And it is a 4 speed.

Wait, what?

[Ron]

Chris, your vid has "Embedding disabled by request".

[Joseph]

Apologies, just got off the phone with him and now he says it is a 5 speed trans. I drove it once and couldn't recall, Also I think we found a buyer...looks like the car might be going back to Nashville!

[vin6635]

Cool - the window sticker shows this car was originally from Shepard Chevrolet in Lake Bluff, IL.

As I understand it, Shepard sold and serviced Ds for quite a few years. Sadly, Shepard just sold out and closed at the end of 2011. I have a pic of my D by there from a few years ago. Had posted it on .com under the dealership thread - need to repost. I also see on this site that Rich W sourced some limo parts from Shepard.

[DMCMW Dave]

Cool - the window sticker shows this car was originally from Shepard Chevrolet in Lake Bluff, IL.
.

That car was built up in Schaumburg IL. The guys who did the work are still around (not in that business) and we had some fun discussions about it last year.

[Soundkillr]

The car has 1911 original miles from the factory, it had about 900 miles when the conversion was finished.

The real question should be what was the mileage when the speedo was replaced or modified? Stock is 85 mph. I saw a buyer with a 600 mile car, but didnt have the heart to tell him the speedo was replaced with a 160, bringing question to actual mileage. That and his frame had well over 600 miles....

[Michael]

Yeah that under side looks like a bit more "weathered" than a car stored inside all it's life with less than 2k miles on it.

Also If I were selling a car worth 50k, I think I would have it detailed first, but I would at least wash that filthy layer of dust off before taking pics.

[pezzonovante88]

$50k for that thing? I hope it also comes with the Pantera!
Hell, at least detail it.

[Nicholas R]

50k may sound steep...but try and find another, better yet try and build this one of a kind today with this much workmanship. Oh and start with a car with 1900 original miles. You can't do it for this price! Even the dash panel was professionally redone. No corners were cut on this car.

If anyone wants a car with an LS1 V8 installed for $49,000 I know where you can find one. ;) I'll gladly take the money and start a new project with an LS9 :D

Personally, unless it's a concourse car, I think "original miles" doesn't mean anything; especially if the car doesn't have the original engine or transmission. All that really means to me is that the wheel bearings have only spun for 2000 miles and everything else on the car is still 30 years old. I dont have the original engine, transmission, shocks, springs, wheel bearings, radiator, a single original hose, and more. The fact that my odometer says 67,000 means crap to me; the only ones that car are the DMV.

[DMCMW Dave]

Looks this this one has surfaced again. This popped up on the old DML in 1996, and has been mentioned here a couple of times. I know more about it than ever as this time the current owner called me about it. Another interesting factoid is that one of the original builders is now the head of the automotive education department at our local junior college. He was able to fill in quite a bit of the story as well.

For the record, here's an updated history on the car.

It was built in Schaumburg Illinois in late 1984/early 1985 on a near-zero-mile 1983 DeLorean VIN16872. It appears to be one of the "two tone interior" cars with black leather and light grey carpeting. The proprietor of the shop was none other than "Lance" (sorry, no last name available) who originally helped Tamir (DMC Talk site owner for the unfamiliar) get his car going back in the late 90's. The instructor I know is named Mike. I first met up with Mike when we were looking for shop assistants from the local college. He mentioned that "I worked on a crazy hot rod DeLorean back when I was a kid, and I always wondered what happened to it". We compared stories and figured out it was the same car. But neither of us had any leads on its whereabouts at the time.

A few weeks ago I was contacted by the current owner, who is the same guy who picked it up from the shop in 1985 (more on that . . .). I mentioned to him that I was aware of the car, and that I happened to know one of the builders who had been anxious to connect with it again. Between the two of them, I've been able to fill in some of the blanks regarding the stories I'd heard over the years.

The car was contracted as a "make me a fast DeLorean" project. The "Pantera" name is a bit of a misnomer as only the transaxle is apparently out of a Pantera. The engine is a modified (for the day) Ford 351 Cleveland. Supposedly somewhere in the neighborhood of 350HP, at least that was the design target. Lance's shop did the drivetrain conversion, and when completed the (lack of) brakes scared them so much they modified the front suspension to use Chevy Monza vented disc brakes on Monza knuckles. Note the spindles sticking out through the front wheel centers. Looking at the photos you can also see a second front sway bar installed over the original. I suspect the sway bar bushings would have a pretty short life in this application!

Concurrent with the completion of the car, the owner who contracted the build happened to end up on the wrong side of the law and in jail. He got connected with the current owner, who paid him "a few bucks" and also paid off the bill at Lance's shop. He took posession of the car at the shop and hauled it off to his collection in Kansas City, where it still sits today. He swears it still runs and drives but I'm sure there are all the typical low mile original DeLorean issues. Not to mention the original tires. It's probably going to be like a typical barn find delorean in that in would need all the major systems cleaned up again.

I'm posting a couple of sets of photos here. The ones with "2012" in the name I had picked up somewhere, sorry if that imposes on anyone. I suspect I pulled them out of the ebay ad. Some of them were posted in this thread in 2012. The ones with "2015" in the name are the ones the owner sent me. The original poster in this thread is long gone, he appears to have joined the list to try and sell this car on ebay for the owner. Some interesting build details.

If there is any current interest in the car please contact me and I can reach out to the owner. He is still trying to sell it, and still wants a pretty tidy sum for it. Might be interesting to someone who is into Fords and carburetors.

2012:

38309383103831138312383133831438315383163831738318 3831938320383213832238323

2015:
38324383253832638327383283832938330383313833238333 38334383353833638337383383833938340383413834238343

[David T]

Very interesting but in my experience, when you see a very modified car, and it hasn't accumulated many miles, it usually means it doesn't drive very well. Rarely do you see a well done swap and it works as well or better than what it was originally. On top of that it is very difficult to properly maintain such a car because it is never well documented. For example what part is the fuel pump or what is it from, and the air filter, oil filter, belts, etc. There is no wiring diagram or vacuum diagram. In some States you will never pass inspection. When is a Delorean no longer a Delorean? It will take a special kind of owner to want this one. Preferably one that is handy and can do a lot of his own work.

[Nicholas R]

Wow; now that is an interesting exhaust!

[DMCMW Dave]

Wow; now that is an interesting exhaust!

Yeah- I'll bet it's insane with the cutouts open.

[Mark D]

It's such an interesting story how this car resurfaced... Thanks for sharing the info an new photos Dave. I remember reading about this one a long time ago.

The 80's era modifications are really cool to see...the cutouts in the fiberglass and rear bumper are very unique. I've never seen an exhaust like that on a DeLorean before either. The car has this vintage feel that is almost like a DeLorean equivalent of finding an old hot rod done up in the 50's with all the period correct mods still intact.

[OverlandMan]

Looks like you have to remove the rear fascia to replace the belt(s). Also didn't notice an AC compressor.

[Dangermouse]

But look at the access for the distributor :headbang:

[DMCVegas]

550 lbs. sitting behind the rear wheels?

http://porch.com/pro/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/oozm79d.jpg

This is just a dangerous car. I mean, I respect the work that went into this car, but it is totally incomplete when it comes to the complete package of an engine swap. Beefing up the front suspension and brakes isn't going to help at all. The problem is just way, WAY too much counterweight at the rear that wants to slide around front. When you start looking into an engine swap, power is good, but you also have to be able to control it. It's also very interesting as not only a time capsule, but at showing the school of thought that goes into someone not familiar with either European or especially rear-engined cars with it comes to just that front suspension build.

I mean, I'm gathering all the info I can for an EcoBoost swap right now so that I can begin work on it when we return home. Yes, there is that whole 30 years difference in technology that has led to some vast improvements such as switching over from a cast iron V8 to an aluminum twin-turbo V6 that weighs almost 150 lbs. LESS, and pumps out more power in just stock form. But that was one of the huge considerations that led to this choice. And while I'm going over this and looking at what needs to go into fabricating a compatible fit for the new powertrain setup itself, I'm also having to look at a new braking and suspension package that goes into the entire thing.

On it's own, the DeLorean in the wrong circumstances can require a modest amount of skill to control. Add in massive amounts of horsepower, and you just shot up the likelihood of that happening more often. Granted this can be said about any car with serious power upgrades. But it's going to happen, and you need those extra safety measures in place to control what you've just created. You must ensure that you have a total package to commit the time and money to for something like this. Otherwise you run out of cash, and can very easily end up with a situation like David T said; "...when you see a very modified car, and it hasn't accumulated many miles, it usually means it doesn't drive very well." Which can easily happen because the work needed to be done is incomplete.

[vin6635]

Cool - it's an old Shepard Chevrolet DMC dealer car. Shepard is now a Target.

383623836338364

[DMCMW Dave]

550 lbs. sitting behind the rear wheels?
This is just a dangerous car..

Having talked to someone who has driven it, I completely agree. I believe the comment was "scariest car I've ever driven". That ain't no LSx engine, it's Cast Iron Ford hanging way out the back end. That's what hit me funny about the added front stabilizer bar - I'd think it would have needed a lot more **rear** stabilizer bar. The weight balance on the car is now even more heavily biased to the back than stock so its going to be really interesting to control under power. Also noting the torn CV boot that tells you there are probably some pretty wild axle angles involved here.

But I still find it strangely attractive, like someone mentioned it would be like buying an old school hot rod and leaving it that way, right down to the cassette deck. But a long way from being a daily driver. . . . It is extremely hard to value something like this, as modifications are not worth much to the average buyer, but it's a very low mile car, etc. It obviously didn't sell on eBay in 2012 but I believe they were looking to get $50K back then, and may still be.

Anyway - I thought ya'll might find it interesting and maybe there is a crazy on this list with some extra cash. Cars like this will tend to be available until they show up in an estate sale, then they hit an auction and you figure out the real value.

[DMCVegas]

Now I'm in no position to buy, but if it were me and I had that car, I'd probably just remove the drivetrain and part it out. Granted I don't know how much modifications were done to the ZF Gearbox, but the cheapest I've ever seen one go for is about $14,000. Likewise who also knows the internal condition and if it needs an even more expensive rebuild. Further, even a crate Aluminum 351Cs are only about 50 lbs. or so less. And we still have to deal with rebuilding the front suspension.

If you were to keep it as-is, you'd need some strut tower mounts up front, a larger one in the back, a sway bar back there too, and most of all some MASSIVE tires to grip the road.

Rear-engine vehicles need more compact, lightweight powerplants. Big-ass engines are find for mid and front engines, but not DeLoreans and Porches, and that is the biggest motivating factor in ripping this engine out. I mean, if you're not going to drive the thing because you can't, what is even the point? With the cost offset of selling the engine and transmission, that could pay a significant amount for another transplant. Not entirely as we don't know what has been done to the chassis and what extra has to go into preserving it. But it could be made into something better. Somethings just should never be.

[delo2.8]

I imagine this car hasn't moved in the last year and half since the last update. If I'm not mistaken the 351 Cleveland shares a bell housing with SBF (289,302,351W,etc.) as well as the first couple of castings for Fords 4.6 V8. I think they also had some V6's with the same bolt pattern. Might provide a (slightly easy) way of alleviating some of that ridiculous weight over the back end without going through the work of doing a completely different engine/trans conversion.

[Josh]

There is a gentleman on here with a gen 1 sbc in his car, engine would be similar weight. Maybe he can comment on how it drives.

However there is a reason why I would never consider putting in an iron block LS, only aluminum. As far as the aluminum block LS goes, the car drives fine, the car is still more of a handful due to the power not the weight! I think an aluminum block LS is about 450lbs.

This is a very cool swap though. The first V8 delorean!

[DMCVegas]

I imagine this car hasn't moved in the last year and half since the last update. If I'm not mistaken the 351 Cleveland shares a bell housing with SBF (289,302,351W,etc.) as well as the first couple of castings for Fords 4.6 V8. I think they also had some V6's with the same bolt pattern. Might provide a (slightly easy) way of alleviating some of that ridiculous weight over the back end without going through the work of doing a completely different engine/trans conversion.

Right. But that would really only apply in this case because the car already has the ZF Gearbox from the Pantera. If you're dealing with the UN-Series transaxles like we have, the GT40 kit car community already has bellhousings for Ford Windsor, Ford Modular, and SBCs.

[David T]

There is a gentleman on here with a gen 1 sbc in his car, engine would be similar weight. Maybe he can comment on how it drives.

However there is a reason why I would never consider putting in an iron block LS, only aluminum. As far as the aluminum block LS goes, the car drives fine, the car is still more of a handful due to the power not the weight! I think an aluminum block LS is about 450lbs.

This is a very cool swap though. The first V8 delorean!

Not the first. There is one with a Lotus V-8 in it. It was an easy fit because the Lotus uses the same transaxle. Not only is it a V-8 it has twin turbos!

[opethmike]

Not the first. There is one with a Lotus V-8 in it. It was an easy fit because the Lotus uses the same transaxle. Not only is it a V-8 it has twin turbos!

Easy fit? WTF are you talking about? Robert had to extensively modify the frame to fit the engine!

[David T]

Easy fit? WTF are you talking about? Robert had to extensively modify the frame to fit the engine!

Easy is a comparative term. It was easy in the sense that he didn't have to deal with adapting to a transmission. I am sure he also had to extensively rewire the car too. The Lotus V8 has a full engine management system. My main point was that others have put a V8 into a Delorean. Under no circumstances is it an easy task. And when you are all done it is too much HP and too much weight for the design.

[opethmike]

Easy is a comparative term. It was easy in the sense that he didn't have to deal with adapting to a transmission. I am sure he also had to extensively rewire the car too. The Lotus V8 has a full engine management system. My main point was that others have put a V8 into a Delorean. Under no circumstances is it an easy task. And when you are all done it is too much HP and too much weight for the design.

As usual, instead of admitting that you're wrong about something you change your narrative. Typical Dave "Guru" T. Have you ever even actually driven a V8 DeLorean? Because it seems pretty clear that you haven't.

[DMCVegas]

Easy fit? WTF are you talking about? Robert had to extensively modify the frame to fit the engine!

That's correct. Robert had to weld in extensions to reach out and hold the motor mounts, as well as he chopped the K-member below to accommodate the oil pan.

http://www.entermyworld.com/cat/custom/lc/lce.jpg

That also doesn't account for the cutting & welding of the bellhousing to accommodate the reversed ring gear, nor his charge cooler system he had to graft in.

LSx engines by contrast need only a chopped section of the oil pan, and custom motor mounts which bolt into the stock location. A Ford Coyote should be even easier to install with a choice of front or rear sumps. Plus it's about 2.5" shorter for an easier installation.

Writing these new engines up is also pretty simple too. You just get a control pack from the factory that plugs directly into the engine via the wiring harness that plugs into it. Drop in your appropriate fuel pump, connect up the 12V feeds, and your engine is up and running. The thing is already tuned from the factory and ready to go. The most custom stuff I've seen so far has been adapting the "drive by wire" system to a more remote location, which would require the removal of the accelerator pedal for the electronic one. And most likely a retrofit of clutch hydraulics as well. Almost every American engine now has a factory engine management kit available for it, and they offer OBD-II availability right out of the box. Here's a sample: https://performanceparts.ford.com/download/instructionsheets/FordInstShtM-6017-A504V.pdf

True, larger brakes are required. But there are 4-piston caliper retrofit kits available for the DeLorean with larger pads as well as the upgraded lower control arms. And who knows what we'll see in the future from the community.

[David T]

Bigger brakes is just a small part of what is required. With a rear engine the car has a large polar moment so you must design the car for that instability. One of the reasons for the different size tires front to rear. Making it larger only magnifies the problems. The spring rates must be changed, a sway bar installed in the rear, some method of proportioning the brakes, and on and on. The cooling system may not be adequate too. An engine swap in the Delorean can be an immense job if it is to be done right. When Lotus designed the car they designed it to be "just enough". Changing one thing will cause a cascade of other necessary changes because the design was optimized in all respects for what it is with little to no room for change. Nothing was "over-engineered" as is so often done on American cars. A perfect example is the electrical system. it is barely adequate for the STOCK Delorean! One engine swap that I was impressed with is Mark Levy's car. Not only does it look well done it also WORKS well. Not overambitious but definitely an improvement. Not something I recommend others do either. BTW you are correct, I have never driven a Delorean V8. The closest I have come to that is a Lotus V8.

[DMCVegas]

One engine swap that I was impressed with is Mark Levy's car. Not only does it look well done it also WORKS well. Not overambitious but definitely an improvement. Not something I recommend others do either.

Interesting. What were the aspects that worked well, and what others did you feel it could have improved upon to adequately match the performance of the engine?

[DMC-81]

Not the first. There is one with a Lotus V-8 in it. It was an easy fit because the Lotus uses the same transaxle. Not only is it a V-8 it has twin turbos!

I thought that Lotus first developed the V8 for 1996 Esprits. If this 351 Cleveland DeLorean was built in late 1984/early 1985, then it would beat the Lotus swapped one by more than a decade, no?

I'm curious..if this wasn't the first V8 swapped DeLorean, then was there an earlier swap documented?

[delo2.8]

Right. But that would really only apply in this case because the car already has the ZF Gearbox from the Pantera. If you're dealing with the UN-Series transaxles like we have, the GT40 kit car community already has bellhousings for Ford Windsor, Ford Modular, and SBCs.

Yeah, I was just thinking that if the owner of this car ever decided to let the car go for a reasonable price that it wouldn't be too hard to get something lighter in the back. I'm sure the car would need a complete cooling and fuel system overhaul after sitting for all these years too. Would be a good project for someone with the time, and who is interested in Deloreans/Ford motors.

[Josh]

That's correct. Robert had to weld in extensions to reach out and hold the motor mounts, as well as he chopped the K-member below to accommodate the oil pan.

http://www.entermyworld.com/cat/custom/lc/lce.jpg

That also doesn't account for the cutting & welding of the bellhousing to accommodate the reversed ring gear, nor his charge cooler system he had to graft in.

LSx engines by contrast need only a chopped section of the oil pan, and custom motor mounts which bolt into the stock location. A Ford Coyote should be even easier to install with a choice of front or rear sumps. Plus it's about 2.5" shorter for an easier installation.

Writing these new engines up is also pretty simple too. You just get a control pack from the factory that plugs directly into the engine via the wiring harness that plugs into it. Drop in your appropriate fuel pump, connect up the 12V feeds, and your engine is up and running. The thing is already tuned from the factory and ready to go. The most custom stuff I've seen so far has been adapting the "drive by wire" system to a more remote location, which would require the removal of the accelerator pedal for the electronic one. And most likely a retrofit of clutch hydraulics as well. Almost every American engine now has a factory engine management kit available for it, and they offer OBD-II availability right out of the box. Here's a sample: https://performanceparts.ford.com/download/instructionsheets/FordInstShtM-6017-A504V.pdf

True, larger brakes are required. But there are 4-piston caliper retrofit kits available for the DeLorean with larger pads as well as the upgraded lower control arms. And who knows what we'll see in the future from the community.

My brain started hurting at your over-simplification of engine swaps.
You make it sound like you have done dozens.

Lets get some things sorted:
-A delorean does not have a k-member
-the installation of an LS engine does not require any cutting of the delorean frame, or the ls oil pan.
-Go ahead and try and cram a Ford mod v8 in a delorean engine bay. You will find in about 10 minutes it is way too wide. This is one reason why LS swaps are popular.
-You can certainly buy a standalone harness for SOME engines at a great expense, and tuning the ECU is a separate affair in these small scale applications. Integrating most engines require a detailed undertanding of the vehicles electrical system and how the ECU intertwines through the CANBUS to other computers in the car. You cant just do a segment swap as easy as you make it sound.
-Properly functioning brakes taming 300+hp can be adequate with the right driver. The calipers on the car aren't as bad as they as perceived, they are just clamping non-vented discs with regular old pads. Add in more crappiness if the brake system is 35 years old.

[Josh]

I thought that Lotus first developed the V8 for 1996 Esprits. If this 351 Cleveland DeLorean was built in late 1984/early 1985, then it would beat the Lotus swapped one by more than a decade, no?

I'm curious..if this wasn't the first V8 swapped DeLorean, then was there an earlier swap documented?

Glad you noticed that too. LOL.

[opethmike]

I like how the self-important old men who have not done an engine swap or driven a high horsepower DeLorean are arguing with people who have. Lol.

[David T]

I thought that Lotus first developed the V8 for 1996 Esprits. If this 351 Cleveland DeLorean was built in late 1984/early 1985, then it would beat the Lotus swapped one by more than a decade, no?

I'm curious..if this wasn't the first V8 swapped DeLorean, then was there an earlier swap documented?

For the record there never was a 1996 Lotus. Lotus made a 4 cyl for 1995, the last year for the 4 cyl, and it was the S4s. Nothing for 1996 and the V8 was offered for the first time in 1997. They used the knowledge they gained in developing the LS1 for GM and "siamesed" their 4 cyl into a V8 with GM engine management. A real triumph of engineering for a little company like Lotus. Not sure who's swap was first the Lotus engined swap or the Ford swap. While I have never driven a Delorean V8 I don't have to to understand the basic engineering involved and what it takes to make it work and work well. While you may get it to work, if you get into a situation where you are turning and braking, with all that weight hanging out behind the rear wheels, it is no small feat to keep the back end in the back. Early American muscle cars suffered similar handicaps for different reasons but suffice to say you had a LOT of power but not enough control in handling or braking. Porsche suffers a similar affliction with their rear-engined cars. It takes a lot to break the rear loose but once you do, you are done. From all of the years of driving experience accumulated by the Delorean fleet with the stock motor and suspension it would appear Lotus got it right with the Delorean as a rear engined car. Mess with it and you must do something to compensate for the additional weight or face the penalties. As for Marks's car I leave it to him to explain all of the details for anyone interested.

[DMC-81]

For the record there never was a 1996 Lotus. Lotus made a 4 cyl for 1995, the last year for the 4 cyl, and it was the S4s. Nothing for 1996 and the V8 was offered for the first time in 1997. They used the knowledge they gained in developing the LS1 for GM and "siamesed" their 4 cyl into a V8 with GM engine management. A real triumph of engineering for a little company like Lotus. Not sure who's swap was first the Lotus engined swap or the Ford swap. While I have never driven a Delorean V8 I don't have to to understand the basic engineering involved and what it takes to make it work and work well. While you may get it to work, if you get into a situation where you are turning and braking, with all that weight hanging out behind the rear wheels, it is no small feat to keep the back end in the back. Early American muscle cars suffered similar handicaps for different reasons but suffice to say you had a LOT of power but not enough control in handling or braking. Porsche suffers a similar affliction with their rear-engined cars. It takes a lot to break the rear loose but once you do, you are done. From all of the years of driving experience accumulated by the Delorean fleet with the stock motor and suspension it would appear Lotus got it right with the Delorean as a rear engined car. Mess with it and you must do something to compensate for the additional weight or face the penalties. As for Marks's car I leave it to him to explain all of the details for anyone interested.

Hi David,

Yeah, I was referring to the V8 that made its debut in the Type 114 Lotus Esprit GT1 race car at the GT Series in 1996. After that race performance, Lotus sold more than 250 V8 Esprits in that same year... probably technically 1997 models to your point. Anyway, point being that the subject DeLorean swap came before the Lotus swap.

Although I'm pretty sure that Lotus didn't develop the LS1 for GM. That engine made it's debut in the 1997 Corvette. I had a Torch Red one, and that engine was sweet.
You may be referring to the LT5. GM owned Lotus from 1986 to 1993, and during which time, Lotus developed the all aluminum 32 valve LT5 that made its debut in the 1990 Corvette ZR1. That was memorable for me as I saw pallets of the $32,000 engines along the wall when I toured the Corvette factory in 1992.

I agree that at least some considerations need to be made to compensate for changes during a swap. When I rebuilt and swapped a 305 SBC into a 1986 Fiero, I put 15% stronger springs on the rear and poly bushings. It worked very well, and man, that was a fun car!

[David T]

Hi David,

Yeah, I was referring to the V8 that made its debut in the Type 114 Lotus Esprit GT1 race car at the GT Series in 1996. After that race performance, Lotus sold more than 250 V8 Esprits in that same year... probably technically 1997 models to your point. Anyway, point being that the subject DeLorean swap came before the Lotus swap.

Although I'm pretty sure that Lotus didn't develop the LS1 for GM. That engine made it's debut in the 1997 Corvette. I had a Torch Red one, and that engine was sweet.
You may be referring to the LT5. GM owned Lotus from 1986 to 1993, and during which time, Lotus developed the all aluminum 32 valve LT5 that made its debut in the 1990 Corvette ZR1. That was memorable for me as I saw pallets of the $32,000 engines along the wall when I toured the Corvette factory in 1992.

I agree that at least some considerations need to be made to compensate for changes during a swap. When I rebuilt and swapped a 305 SBC into a 1986 Fiero, I put 15% stronger springs on the rear and poly bushings. It worked very well, and man, that was a fun car!

As far as I know Lotus did the engineering and design work for the LS1. Lotus did that kind of thing for all of the major manufacturers. They did a LOT of the areo work too. They were the acknowledged leader in that kind of stuff and I think they had the first "rolling road" wind tunnel for this. One of the reasons GM bought Lotus, they appreciated their expertise. I don't think it was the LT5, that came AFTER Lotus made their motor and the LS1 had to be before since they used that technology for themselves for their V8. Remember in the Lotus the transaxle is "turned around" and the motor is AHEAD of the rear wheels making the Lotus a mid-engined car. Lotus knew the pitfalls of having all of that weight hanging past the rear axle and avoided it for their cars. I guess they had no choice when it came to the Delorean. As bad as a rear engined car can be they did a helluva job because generally speaking, it has not been a major cause of accidents for the Delorean fleet. In a way having an under-powered car lets them get away with that!

[DMC-81]

As far as I know Lotus did the engineering and design work for the LS1. Lotus did that kind of thing for all of the major manufacturers. They did a LOT of the areo work too. They were the acknowledged leader in that kind of stuff and I think they had the first "rolling road" wind tunnel for this. One of the reasons GM bought Lotus, they appreciated their expertise. I don't think it was the LT5, that came AFTER Lotus made their motor and the LS1 had to be before since they used that technology for themselves for their V8. Remember in the Lotus the transaxle is "turned around" and the motor is AHEAD of the rear wheels making the Lotus a mid-engined car. Lotus knew the pitfalls of having all of that weight hanging past the rear axle and avoided it for their cars. I guess they had no choice when it came to the Delorean. As bad as a rear engined car can be they did a helluva job because generally speaking, it has not been a major cause of accidents for the Delorean fleet. In a way having an under-powered car lets them get away with that!

:) Yeah, I guess I should have said "really sure" on the LS1. Being a Corvette nut, I followed the development of the C5 and collected press kits (see pics), and other literature on the 1997. The video takes you through a tour and interviews with engineers on the C5 development, including the LS1.

46871 46873

The LS1 was developed inhouse by GM. Also, here is a link that contains more than you care to know about the engine:

http://www.netmotive.net/articles/hib/ls1c.html

Here is one of many links that describes Lotus' involvement in development of the LT5 and the timing:
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2015/05/the-story-of-how-the-gen-iii-lt5-engine-that-never-was-came-back-to-life/

Anyway, we are off topic. :offtopic2: ....Back to the more interesting 351 Cleveland DeLorean....

[leroylem]

I believe Josh was referring to my engine swap----SBC performance built to approx 400 HP---I understand most Delorean owners are not into engine swaps--however, I really liked the D, but the performance was lacking---the car is now so much fun to drive--added rear weight has not effected driveability too much (do not drive on rainy days)---no regrets from me. Engine swap was no more involved than other "Hot Rods" I have built.

Leroy 2126

[Nicholas R]

My brain started hurting at your over-simplification of engine swaps.
You make it sound like you have done dozens.

Lets get some things sorted:
-A delorean does not have a k-member
-the installation of an LS engine does not require any cutting of the delorean frame, or the ls oil pan.
-Go ahead and try and cram a Ford mod v8 in a delorean engine bay. You will find in about 10 minutes it is way too wide. This is one reason why LS swaps are popular.
-You can certainly buy a standalone harness for SOME engines at a great expense, and tuning the ECU is a separate affair in these small scale applications. Integrating most engines require a detailed undertanding of the vehicles electrical system and how the ECU intertwines through the CANBUS to other computers in the car. You cant just do a segment swap as easy as you make it sound.
-Properly functioning brakes taming 300+hp can be adequate with the right driver. The calipers on the car aren't as bad as they as perceived, they are just clamping non-vented discs with regular old pads. Add in more crappiness if the brake system is 35 years old.

It's always fun to hear people describe how easy our swaps were isn't it... :wink:

[delo2.8]

So does anybody currently have a line on the 351 car? Has it ever been sold or still sitting around?

[David T]

So does anybody currently have a line on the 351 car? Has it ever been sold or still sitting around?

After some research Lotus did design the LT5 which influenced the design of the LS1 by GM. Lotus did NOT design the LS1. Lotus then used their experience designing the LT5 and GM's design of their engine management to create their V8 from Lotus's basic design of their 4 cylinder. That way they were able to reuse much of their tooling from their 4 cyl.

[delo2.8]

After some research Lotus did design the LT5 which influenced the design of the LS1 by GM. Lotus did NOT design the LS1. Lotus then used their experience designing the LT5 and GM's design of their engine management to create their V8 from Lotus's basic design of their 4 cylinder. That way they were able to reuse much of their tooling from their 4 cyl.

I'll take that as a no.

[Josh]

I'll take that as a no.

Dave's quotations are not too terribly precise. lol.

[Timebender]

That car was built up in Schaumburg IL. The guys who did the work are still around (not in that business) and we had some fun discussions about it last year.
Interesting, as my DeLorean was originally purchased at Shepard as well - so I'm wondering if the conversion to the early 80's 350 sec was done by these guys as well?

Do you have any contact info for them?


Greg

[Timebender]

There is a gentleman on here with a gen 1 sbc in his car, engine would be similar weight. Maybe he can comment on how it drives.

However there is a reason why I would never consider putting in an iron block LS, only aluminum. As far as the aluminum block LS goes, the car drives fine, the car is still more of a handful due to the power not the weight! I think an aluminum block LS is about 450lbs.

This is a very cool swap though. The first V8 delorean!

I think you're referring to me, as mine has an early 80's (81 or 82 possibly) Chevy 350 small block, which was done when the original owner had it - and he's long gone so I can't find any info on the car, being the 3rd owner. All I know is his name and where he bought it, thanks to the DeLorean Museum certificate I bought last year.

As far as weight, it seems fine in wet and dry weather - but then I'm super conscious of when driving in wet weather to accelerate gently out of curves, and even in dry conditions like circular on-ramps to the freeway. The car accelerates beautifully, sounds awesome, and I can get up to speed on our freeways (speed limit is 65 or 70 depending, but everyone does at least 80) in a matter of seconds - but prefer to drive at a leisurely 70-ish, which affords me about 21 mpg running with an Edelbrock 460 carb.

I've never floored it from standing still in the almost two years I've had it, but I would imagine the original owner as well as second owner did as well just to show off. I've always eased into it and it still takes off with enough oomph. I'm trying not to do any damage to the trans - and every time I've checked underneath, aside from a leaky throw-out bearing seal, it's dry elsewhere and the CV boots look good.

As far as braking, it stops well and as expected for a 30 some odd year old car without anti-lock brakes. I can go from 60 to 0 in about 20 feet - maybe less but never really measured - and when I've had to stop short due to some dork in front of me suddenly deciding they want to turn into THAT driveway without signaling (which seems to be an epidemic here), the DeLorean has done nicely.

This is my 2nd rear engined car - the first being a 1963 23 Window VW bus, though that was a much lighter engine. However what's funny is when I drive this, I feel more in sync and in tune with it then when I drive a more modern car.

What's strange though is how often I see front engined, front wheel drive cars facing the opposite direction OFTEN on the side of the road or freeways these days.I have to always think "What the heck did they do to get turned around like that?"

So, basically, my car with the bigger engine and more weight in the back seems pretty happy, and it handles amazingly.

[Joseph]

Hello, about a year ago I met an elderly man here in KC with an amazing car. I posted pics of it on here back then.. are the pics still on this website somewhere? This special D has quite a history, from being commissioned by a wealthy businessman to being owned by a famous country western singer, it even spent some time in the Country Music Hall of Fame. I stop by and start it up for him from time to time (the clutch is to heavy for him) the odometer shows 9k original miles. When I first met him he was playing around with the idea of selling it but his $ was just too much. Now his health is failing and he is ready to let it go at a reasonable price. I will try to find the pics I have and post them. Anyone interested in getting in contact with him let me know. I might post it to Ebay in a week or so for him. BTW, this thing is a beast! Thanks, Joe.

It's still there in the nondescript building off Truman and 435, It shares space with 3 custom painted Rolls Royce's once owned by the cult leader Rajneesh from the 70's. the car was once owned by country singer Little Jimmy Dickens and had sat for a brief time in the country music hall of fame. The old guy has a stack of photos that go with the car from new to now. the car is started and driven around the block on a regular basis. (or at least was several years ago) the older gentleman has some pretty interesting cars including an old Willie Nelson tour bus just rotting away behind his building. the old guy told me he was a county music tour manager back in the day. At $80k it probably won't sell until after he passes. I've personally started it and drove it around the block for him. I'TS A BEAST!! And still smell new inside. I'm pretty sure this his number 816-452-5412 he now sells used fleet vans. 7101 E. Truman rd. K.C.MO. Good luck! He's not a negotiator!

[82DMC12]

It appears this car has resurfaced once again, this time with a $150,000 price tag.

https://m.facebook.com/marketplace/item/508192777375675/

[Henrik]

https://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?4450-Delorean-in-Kansas-City-with-351-and-Pantera-trans&p=63309&viewfull=1#post63309

Looks like the car has not been driven in the last 10 years (or more)... and the ad says auto tranny but looking at the pics it sure looks like a stick shift to me.

[MrChocky]

Apparently this car is still (still, still) available - posted today on Facebook with no details, but seems to be the same car. I understand it's real scary to drive due to the racing clutch.