Stock PVR Replacement

[Alves]

Hi guys, I just had a mechanic look at my engine and he has come to the conclusion that I have a cracked block, he says he's not 100% sure but I'm waging all my options. For a little background, you may have seen me previously on the forum complaining about my coolant "burning" off. Really it was hiding in the oil compartment. That's his main reason for thinking its a cracked block.

My question is can I still purchase a stock PVR and is so where? My plan was to keep the stock and do an efi swap or island twin turbo so I really am not looking to do a swap.

Thanks

[Chris Burns]

DMC Houston may have some or you can try Delorean Performance Industries, run by DPI Josh.

[Dangermouse]

Houston has a stack of them.

Though they call them PRVs ;)

[dmc6960]

99% positive that's not a cracked block, but a bad cylinder liner seal. PRVs are a little different from most engines in which the cylinder liner floats in the block. If the bottom seal goes bad, that is what happens. Ask me how I know.... This seems to be becoming more common recently. Unfortunately it requires a complete rebuild, but can be done for less than a few hundred in parts. Just depends on how far you go reconditioning the engine at that time. Plus labor of course if you are not doing it yourself.

[David T]

I agree it is probably not a crack. If outright replacement is being considered, DMCH also sells an upgraded engine they call the PRV Stage II. It offers a noticeable improvement over the stock PRV but it does cost a bit more. The motor you have is probably rebuildable so if you do replace it you can probably sell your old one.
David Teitelbaum





99% positive that's not a cracked block, but a bad cylinder liner seal. PRVs are a little different from most engines in which the cylinder liner floats in the block. If the bottom seal goes bad, that is what happens. Ask me how I know.... This seems to be becoming more common recently. Unfortunately it requires a complete rebuild, but can be done for less than a few hundred in parts. Just depends on how far you go reconditioning the engine at that time. Plus labor of course if you are not doing it yourself.

[Delorean Industries]

DPI has basically any thing you can think of option wise available. No 30 year old junk crate motors going out the door here! All of our current 2.8 prv feature new forged pistons as well.

www.deloreanindustries.com/shop or email direct at [email protected]

Here is why buying a NOS crate engine is a bad idea:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWW_xRqHEvo

[Alves]

Thanks guys, I was pretty sure I wrote PRV lol. Half dyslexic moment I guess, ha ha sorry.

[Alves]

99% positive that's not a cracked block, but a bad cylinder liner seal. PRVs are a little different from most engines in which the cylinder liner floats in the block. If the bottom seal goes bad, that is what happens. Ask me how I know.... This seems to be becoming more common recently. Unfortunately it requires a complete rebuild, but can be done for less than a few hundred in parts. Just depends on how far you go reconditioning the engine at that time. Plus labor of course if you are not doing it yourself.

You know something told me it wasn't, but who was I to argue with a mechanic right? This is good though because I was planning on having it rebuilt anyway. Do you think it's just the age of the engines that is causing this trouble?

[Shep]

You know something told me it wasn't, but who was I to argue with a mechanic right? This is good though because I was planning on having it rebuilt anyway. Do you think it's just the age of the engines that is causing this trouble?Have the heads ever been taken off for any kind of servicing? I have a failed lower cylinder seal myself, and it was caused when both heads were taken off, one resurfaced and the other replaced, then put back on. This was done by a Volvo dealer who apparently wasn't familiar with the PRV engine, since they ruptured the lower cylinder seal in the process. It's not that uncommon when work is done to the heads from what I'm told, so now mine's getting rebuilt (at DPI by the way).

[thirdmanj]

DPI has basically any thing you can think of option wise available. No 30 year old junk crate motors going out the door here! All of our current 2.8 prv feature new forged pistons as well.

www.deloreanindustries.com/shop or email direct at [email protected]

Here is why buying a NOS crate engine is a bad idea:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWW_xRqHEvo

Agreed, saw that video of yours doing a new engine build and you brought out an old crate motor.... Yuck. That said, if you really are considering the new engine idea... ask ^^^ guy about the Eagle Premier 3.0.

[David T]

The motor can be leaking because it got overheated too. Pull the oil filler off and look inside. You should see a white, plastic mesh screen. If it is missing or melted the motor was probably overheated. It is probably rebuildable but it will take time and cost money. You should weigh your options and make a decision. You could be better off replacing the motor and it could be faster than rebuilding your old one (and cheaper). Once you tear a motor apart you never know exactly what it is going to cost to put it back together. The + side to rebuilding your motor is you can control costs and try to keep them down and it is probably the cheaper option providing you do it right and don't ruin the rebuild. A lot has to do with how confident you are that you (or your shop) can do the job and do it right. Replacing the motor you pretty much know the motor is good (if you get it from DMCH) and exactly what your costs will be.
David Teitelbaum





You know something told me it wasn't, but who was I to argue with a mechanic right? This is good though because I was planning on having it rebuilt anyway. Do you think it's just the age of the engines that is causing this trouble?

[Delorean Industries]

The motor can be leaking because it got overheated too. Pull the oil filler off and look inside. You should see a white, plastic mesh screen. If it is missing or melted the motor was probably overheated. It is probably rebuildable but it will take time and cost money. You should weigh your options and make a decision. You could be better off replacing the motor and it could be faster than rebuilding your old one (and cheaper). Once you tear a motor apart you never know exactly what it is going to cost to put it back together. The + side to rebuilding your motor is you can control costs and try to keep them down and it is probably the cheaper option providing you do it right and don't ruin the rebuild. A lot has to do with how confident you are that you (or your shop) can do the job and do it right. Replacing the motor you pretty much know the motor is good (if you get it from DMCH) and exactly what your costs will be.
David Teitelbaum

Long documented list of issues with crate engines. Once coolant sits in the block for 30 years the motor needs to come completely apart. Power washing out the liners will not fix the problem. The disaster that I showed the video of is one of many we have encountered along with many owners having the same issues with crate engines. A prime example is the crate engine disaster from the build car we sorted out last year. We have since corrected the issue with a complete tear down and the owner has sold the car.

This is true of any PRV crate engine. Not just the junk Houston has sitting around. We just tore apart a zero mile 3.0 premier engine that had the same problem for an Arizona owner here.

[David T]

Well, if you can't be sure you can buy a good motor from DMCH then rebuilding your's is probably the better option (or having someone else rebuild it or buying a rebuilt from someone. I am not aware of this being that big a problem but I guess it certainly can be. I would think a "crate" engine never had any coolant in it to go bad.
David Teitelbaum




Long documented list of issues with crate engines. Once coolant sits in the block for 30 years the motor needs to come completely apart. Power washing out the liners will not fix the problem. The disaster that I showed the video of is one of many we have encountered along with many owners having the same issues with crate engines. A prime example is the crate engine disaster from the build car we sorted out last year. We have since corrected the issue with a complete tear down and the owner has sold the car.

This is true of any PRV crate engine. Not just the junk Houston has sitting around. We just tore apart a zero mile 3.0 premier engine that had the same problem for an Arizona owner here.

[DMC5180]

These engines were never Preserved for long term storage. They were intended to be put in cars soon after delivery to DMC (Belfast)

[Ron]

...
I am not aware of this being that big a problem but I guess it certainly can be. I would think a "crate" engine never had any coolant in it to go bad.
David Teitelbaum
+1

There should never have been anything (?~1" of rain water?) in the cylinder(s) to cause that kind of damage...in any case.

[Shep]

There should never have been anything (?~1" of rain water?) in the cylinder(s) to cause that kind of damage...in any case.
Once coolant sits in the block for 30 years the motor needs to come completely apart.Who said anything about the cylinders?

[Ron]

Who said anything about the cylinders?See the vid begining about 2:19+

[Shep]

See the vid begining about 2:19+Didn't catch that. The coolant sits right next to the cylinder, and after 30 years, it's not surprising that it leaked its way into the cylinder itself. That shit's VERY corrosive when it's sitting in the same place for an extended period of time. Just ask anyone who's ever put a radiator hose on incorrectly and had the pipe shear right off with no warning whatsoever. Only takes a few months for that to happen.

[Ron]

Didn't catch that. The coolant sits right next to the cylinder, and after 30 years, it's not surprising that it leaked its way into the cylinder itself. That shit's VERY corrosive when it's sitting in the same place for an extended period of time. Just ask anyone who's ever put a radiator hose on incorrectly and had the pipe shear right off with no warning whatsoever. Only takes a few months for that to happen.
I know what you mean about being corrosive and agree because I've restored old classic cars as a part/full time job for decades and have seen it (and it don't take years ;-)
But, it seems you are missing what David and I are saying -- A "crate" engine should never of had coolant in it in the first place!
Even if for some odd reason it once had coolant in it, I don't see it possible for there to have been enough to get on top of the pistons sitting in a warehouse once the hoses were off (even if plugged afterwards)....ie with it drained (somewhat anyway) and evaporation (~50% water) while it eats away, it wouldn't have had enough left to be up that high. (Maybe the lower seal...but then it would have went to the oil pan.)
Obviously we don't know who/what/when, but from what I can see, I'd say it was not stored properly at some time or "abused"...I can see where something had been sitting on top of the piston (now gone) and the only thing that makes sense for there to have been that much (not condensation) that high is something like water from a leaky roof, a fire, carelessly rinsing it off, etc. getting in past the valves.

[20098]

We just tore apart a zero mile 3.0 premier engine that had the same problem for an Arizona owner here.

I am the owner of this car and can tell you that when I got the engine, it was indeed a zero mile engine. It had the plastic caps on every port, etc. The OEM water pump (with the PRV stamping in it) was seized and the impeller was rusted. There was trace amounts of coolant in the engine. I assume this was filled by the factory upon completion of the engine build. There engine was filled with the proper amount of oil and a factory Renault oil filter was also in place. Maybe the engine was test fired at the engine factory, drained of coolant, but a trace amount was left in? Or, maybe it was filled with coolant and oil with the intention to be used almost immediately, just not 20 years later! I don't know for sure, but I do know that it was strapped to a pallet that looked like it came from France and shipped to the USA back in the late 80's. I am almost 100% sure that based on the engine number and sequence, it was intended to be a 1989 build.

The story I got from the person that sold the engine to me was that his father did work for a company in Michigan. This was around the late 80's/early 90's. The company couldn't pay the bills and a deal was struck for some miscellaneous parts and a 3.0 PRV engine. Since the Premier had been discontinued, this guy had a spare engine along with other parts and the father figured it would be valuable to him. Fast forward about 18 years and the father had since passed on and the son was cleaning out his shop and stumbled upon the PRV sitting at the back of the warehouse. I saw it listed on eBay, spoke with the guy and purchased it. Spark plugs, manifolds, IAC valve, fuel rails, coolant pipes, distributor, cap, rotor, wires, throttle body, TPS, etc. were all in place. Oddly enough, it even has a 235mm clutch pressure plate and disk attached to it! Not sure why as all Premiers were automatics. But, I digress.

I will say this though, any NOS PRV engine will have corrosion and it is imperative that the engine(s) be opened up, cleaned out and put back together properly, or there will be a brown sludge running through the entire cooling system. I didn't know this and when I got the engine running and put about 250 miles on it, I checked the coolant level. The coolant was no longer green; it was brown sludge and coated everything. I opened the coolant drain plugs on each side of the engine and they were plugged with rusty scale. In all of the 1,000 miles I put on the engine, I changed the coolant 4 times. Each time, it got better, but the damage was done to the entire cooling system. The coating of rust/sludge residue was on everything; cooling pipes, hoses, internals of the radiator, heater core, etc. When I brought the car to Josh at DPI to get the turbo installed, he told me of a proprietary way to clean the block...safe to say, I went with his recommendation. All pipes and hoses, along with the radiator and heater core have been replaced and the coolant bottle was cleaned out.

Bottom line, you can't just buy a crate engine, throw it in, hook it up and expect it to run for long without having major cooling problems. I've heard of at least one guy that had that problem with an uprated crate 2.85 liter PRV installed by one of the vendors. I've also heard of a few crate 2.85 liter PRV engines that were purchased in the US by a vendor for owners that had the same problem, etc. All of which required an overhaul before being installed.

Caveat emptor!

[David T]

This would not be what I would call a "crate" engine. It has a dubious history, "The story I got....". I would not expect to get an engine in this condition from DMCH. I do agree that any motor, sitting for many years, should be checked over before installing it. The NOS motors were not "preserved" or meant to be stored for 30 years. I would do a borescope of the cylinders for rust, a compression check, probably replace the water pump and hoses. I would not expect then to have coolant in them to corrode. You can never really know the condition of an engine you get from a private party and even if they tell you the truth, they can't tell you about it's history before they got it. One reason why I suggested getting an engine from DMCH. Otherwise you are probably better off rebuilding the one you got.
David Teitelbaum



[QUOTE=20098;63634]I am the owner of this car and can tell you that when I got the engine, it was indeed a zero mile engine. It had the plastic caps on every port, etc. The OEM water pump (with the PRV stamping in it) was seized and the impeller was rusted. There was trace amounts of coolant in the engine. I assume this was filled by the factory upon completion of the engine build. There engine was filled with the proper amount of oil and a factory Renault oil filter was also in place. Maybe the engine was test fired at the engine factory, drained of coolant, but a trace amount w

[Delorean Industries]

This would not be what I would call a "crate" engine. It has a dubious history, "The story I got....". I would not expect to get an engine in this condition from DMCH. I do agree that any motor, sitting for many years, should be checked over before installing it. The NOS motors were not "preserved" or meant to be stored for 30 years. I would do a borescope of the cylinders for rust, a compression check, probably replace the water pump and hoses. I would not expect then to have coolant in them to corrode. You can never really know the condition of an engine you get from a private party and even if they tell you the truth, they can't tell you about it's history before they got it. One reason why I suggested getting an engine from DMCH. Otherwise you are probably better off rebuilding the one you got.
David Teitelbaum




I am the owner of this car and can tell you that when I got the engine, it was indeed a zero mile engine. It had the plastic caps on every port, etc. The OEM water pump (with the PRV stamping in it) was seized and the impeller was rusted. There was trace amounts of coolant in the engine. I assume this was filled by the factory upon completion of the engine build. There engine was filled with the proper amount of oil and a factory Renault oil filter was also in place. Maybe the engine was test fired at the engine factory, drained of coolant, but a trace amount w

DMCH has no idea about what happened with the crate engines in their possession for the first 18+ years of the engines life either btw.... I have multiple engines stored in the same conditions from the same source all with the same issues.

[Delorean Industries]

I also just want to state that I'm not trying to start a fight over this. I'm just stating the fact with 30+ year old PRV engines at this point that were run with coolant and left to sit for years. The same problem exists with the crate units I have purchased as well. Not just my competitions remaining supply. My point is though that I have worked very hard to find viable working solutions. New pistons, new liners etc to combat this issue. I will remain with my stance of DPI offering the only superior PRV solution available with unsurpassed reliability.

[20098]

This would not be what I would call a "crate" engine. It has a dubious history, "The story I got....". I would not expect to get an engine in this condition from DMCH. I do agree that any motor, sitting for many years, should be checked over before installing it. The NOS motors were not "preserved" or meant to be stored for 30 years. I would do a borescope of the cylinders for rust, a compression check, probably replace the water pump and hoses. I would not expect then to have coolant in them to corrode. You can never really know the condition of an engine you get from a private party and even if they tell you the truth, they can't tell you about it's history before they got it. One reason why I suggested getting an engine from DMCH. Otherwise you are probably better off rebuilding the one you got.
David Teitelbaum

Okay...so "crate engine" refers to an engine in a wooden crate, direct from the engine manufacturer. My engine is not a "crate engine;" rather it was an engine built by the engine manufacturer, sent to the automobile manufacturer and sold to a dealership that in turn, sold it to a customer in need of a replacement. Whew...

The history is not dubious; it was a bona fide replacement engine from a dealership and the recount of its history is accurate. I have heard of many 3.0 "crate engines" and they all suffered the same fate. these engines were not stored and preserved for a future customer, they were meant to be used in short order. Unfortunately, mine was not. I have seen a 30 year old NOS engine and can attest to the corrosion issues. There seems to be a reluctance to believe that this is possible and is a common problem.

In either case, I will stick to what I know to be accurate, as I have experienced this first hand.

[Ron]

Oddly enough, it even has a 235mm clutch pressure plate and disk attached to it! Not sure why as all Premiers were automatics. But, I digress.
I don't know...I think you may be on to some thing here. It's surprising to hear other accessories are on the engine too.



This would not be what I would call a "crate" engine. It has a dubious history, "The story I got....". I would not expect to get an engine in this condition from DMCH. I do agree that any motor, sitting for many years, should be checked over before installing it. The NOS motors were not "preserved" or meant to be stored for 30 years. I would do a borescope of the cylinders for rust, a compression check, probably replace the water pump and hoses. I would not expect then to have coolant in them to corrode. You can never really know the condition of an engine you get from a private party and even if they tell you the truth, they can't tell you about it's history before they got it. One reason why I suggested getting an engine from DMCH. Otherwise you are probably better off rebuilding the one you got.
David Teitelbaum

+1