ARRRRGHHH! After many great years, my car finally won't start.....

[DL4567]

Hi everyone,

Tonight I drove my D over to a friend's house about 10 minutes away from home, and on the way there thought I noticed the car hesitating a bit when pulling away from stops and red lights (automatic transmission). It just felt a little sluggish, almost like it was starting in 2nd gear, but I don't think that's the case. After paying real close attention for the rest of the drive, the transmission seems fine. But the hesitation was subtle enough that I doubted myself, thinking maybe it's just been too long since I've driven the car last and am not quite used to the gas pedal. The last couple of stop and go's went fine, so I shrugged it off. Arrived at the friend's house, and had a nice evening. Now, that may or may not be related to the following....

So about 5 hours later, my wife and I go outside, start the car (fires right up as usual), and sit there with it running for a minute while I put on my seatbelt, plug in my ipod, etc. I back the car down the driveway, and as soon as I pull into the street the engine dies. No immediate panic, it has happened before on rare occasion, so I go to start it again and it cranks and cranks but never turns over. Tried 3 or 4 times to no avail. We rolled the car in neutral (all starting attempts are in "park") to alongside the nearest curb, and another friend and I try jumper cables from his car, thinking maybe the battery is weak and/or there's an alternator issue. Tried turning the key, and while the cranking definitely sounded stronger, the engine still wouldn't fire.

Of course at this time the person whose house we're in front of comes home, stops their car right there in the street, gets out and says, "Wow! Is that a DeLorean!?!" So we explain the situation, and how he just "had" to catch us when the car wouldn't start, and assured him it was NOT typical. :) He was very friendly though, and even offered us the guestroom in his house if we couldn't get the car going! Ha!

Anyway, the battery in the car is an Optima yellow top, and while it is about 6 years old (probably needs replacing soon), I don't think that's the problem because it was cranking and even with the jumper cables connected to the other car it still wouldn't fire.

My friend suggested the alternator, but I'm under the impression the battery would be dead if there was something wrong with the alternator? Someone please educate me if that's incorrect and if that could be the cause of this.

The other possibility within my knowledge is the fuel pump. From when the car started to when it died in the street, I'd say somewhere between 1 and 2 minutes went by, so could that be the amount of fuel in the line, and then when that ran out the pump wasn't feeding any more so the car died? I turned the key to position 2 and we all listened to hear if the pump was humming, but the damn crickets are so loud here at night it was honestly hard to be sure. There wasn't a hum loud enough to make a determination either way.

We pushed the car back into my friend's driveway where it awaits my return tomorrow to hopefully at least get it going well enough to drive it home. Am I on the right track with the above things? I'll first check out the fuel pump. Shouldn't be the accumulator as the car was sitting for 5 hours. Anything else I should look for? Sigh.... first time the car left me "stranded," but not really as we were really glad it was at a friend's house rather than on the road. All advice is very much appreciated.

[deloumis]

It isn't a battery issue because you were able to crank.
If it was the alternator the battery would be dead but jumping it would start the car.
Unless you are carbed, kjet needs constant pressure to function properly
It is not the case that it was the fuel that was left in the line. It could be that the fuel pump went out, when you put the key forward check the metering plate for pressure. If there is pressure there is fuel. Check your fuel filter and grounds

[Bitsyncmaster]

Most of us would just jumper the RPM relay and listen for the fuel pump. The fuel pump will not run without the engine running or cranking with the RPM relay installed. But since you can't hear it, as suggested, check the air plate for pressure.

The other common problem are the wires on the resistor block. Just pull each one off and put it back on again. That will scratch off any oxidation and get you going.

[nullset]

Did you try the CSV plug swap?

--buddy

[nullset]

I have a K-Jet fuel injection pressure tester. Let me know if you'd like to borrow it.

--buddy

[David T]

Bitsyncmaster is on the right track, the first thing to do is verify the fuel pump is running. Common problems include a bad RPM relay, a melted #7 fuse, a bad connection on the plug by the washer bottle, corroded connections on the fuel pump terminals. Other possibilities are you are low on fuel and have a bad pick-up hose, or the fuel pump died. If it is not fuel related, dirty, bad, corroded connections on the ballast resistor will cause this. The ballast resistor connections are steel and they rust. Push down on the air sensor plate. If you feel no resistance the fuel pump isn't running. This has nothing to do with the battery or the alternator. You do not need a pressure gauge yet. If the pump isn't running there is no pressure and if it is running there should be enough pressure for the motor to start.
David Teitelbaum

[stevedmc]

Most of us would just jumper the RPM relay and listen for the fuel pump.

What Dave said. Jump the RPM relay and listen for the fuel pump.

Another thing to check is to make sure you are getting spark. My car wouldn't start the other day and at first I wanted to blame the carburetor. I spent time adjusting the choke and opening the throttle plates but never could get it to start. Upon hooking a tester up to one of my spark plug wires I found I was barely getting any spark at all. I then checked my distributor cap and found corrosion on all the points in it. I cleaned them up with sandpaper, put it back together, and the car starts perfect every time. I now have a lifetime warranty distributor cap and rotor on order from Oreilly's.

I would certainly check the fuel pump first but don't forget that a perfect fuel system will do you no good if you don't have spark to ignite it.

[stevedmc]

and assured him it was NOT typical. :)

Its pretty typical on this forum.

[DL4567]

Thanks for all the replies guys! I'm back at my friend's house now, and here's what I've checked so far....

I jumpered the RPM relay from terminal 30 to 87, and I hear the pump run immediately. So it works. But, I haven't yet looked into the tank to see if the pickup hose fell off or something. I kind of doubt that, as I installed a new pickup hose just 2 years ago and made all the connections tight. Does the pump need to be working for the engine to actually turn over? Since you guys are saying it won't be on in key position 2... is it running when cranking the engine?
Should I try starting the car with the RPM relay jumpered? If it starts, will that conclude the RPM relay is bad?

I pulled all the connectors off the resistor pack on the engine firewall and put them back on. You can hear this hum noticeably when turning the key to position 2.

I pressed on the pressure plate on top of the engine (with the key in position 2, but with the fuel pump NOT running/jumpered) and it had about the resistance of a piano key. I've never done this before so am not sure what it's "supposed" to feel like. It didn't have a whole lot of resistance, and what I felt was probably the resistance of the spring?

Should I do the CSV plug swap? I was under the impression that's for a hot start problem..... if I should try it, can someone please tell me how?

What about the inertia switch? Is that a possibility? The red plunger is NOT sticking up. Thanks again for all the help!

[mluder]

Could be a faulty iniertia switch.

Have you checked all of the injectors? I had a backfire blow two of mine loose from the cylinders and the car wouldn't trun over because I wasn't getting sufficient fuel into the engine.
Make sure all of your injectors are seated 100%.

Cheers.
Steve

[stevedmc]

Should I try starting the car with the RPM relay jumpered? If it starts, will that conclude the RPM relay is bad?

Yes and yes. We will worry about your other questions if it doesn't start with the RPM relay jumpered.

[stevedmc]

Just in case you need an RPM relay:

RPM Relay
Beck Arnley 203-0066
$13.50
http://www.amazon.com/Beck-Arnley-203-0066-Relay/dp/B000CB0DPO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1342464741&sr=8-1&keywords=Beck+Arnley+203-0066



https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuGGjDnScTC7dGl5NURiNzJaTDQ0dGhMemxCWWNrV 3c#gid=0

[Chris 16409]

Should I try starting the car with the RPM relay jumpered? If it starts, will that conclude the RPM relay is bad?

I would try this. If it's starts this way, your RPM relay is probably bad.



What about the inertia switch? Is that a possibility? The red plunger is NOT sticking up. Thanks again for all the help!

A failure here is a possibility as well. My buddy and I just got a car running that had a bad inertia switch. You can pull the plug and jumper those two connections.

[stevedmc]

A failure here is a possibility as well. My buddy and I just got a car running that had a bad inertia switch. You can pull the plug and jumper those two connections.

Not likely in his case. The inertia switch has to work in order for his fuel pump to operate. When he bypassed the RPM relay his fuel pump came on. That tells us his inertial switch was working at the time.

[Ron]

Keep in mind that, normally, every time you turn a cold engine over fuel is spraying from the CSV and injectors and may flood the engine (and you won't know you have fixed the problem)
You might want to put a wooden/plastic handled phillips screwdriver tip in a spark plug wire and see if it will spark to the block.

If you have pressure on the plate and spark (check several to eliminate a bad cap) shoot ~1 second of starting fluid past the plate and see if it will run a second or so to test the fuel system a little better.

You know how to get a hold of me if you need to bro!

[Dangermouse]

I had a situation about a year ago where one of the connectors on the coil had worked its way loose. Similar symptoms - engine would crank but not fire, obviously. Only happened the once, but may be worth a check.

[DL4567]

Some updates:

I had a few good conversations with Ben over the phone, and he was a great help on some things to check. He led me to what I think is called the tachometer wire that comes through the firewall in the bottom left corner (as you're standing behind the engine). Upon checking that connector, the yellow/brown plastic crumbled apart and was very brittle. The wires inside were still intact though. But I noticed upon trying to start it that it now turns over but dies after 1/2 a second. If I unplug that same wire, it just turns over like last night. I tried this several times and it always fires but dies immediately.

Like you Ron, Ben also told me about the spark test, so I also pulled one of the spark plug wires and did the screwdriver thing. It did spark when cranking the engine.

Also confirmed the fuel pickup hose is still in place and in good shape.

Each time it started for 1/2 a second and then died, there was a click-click noise in the relay department. That click-click makes me suspect of the RPM relay, which led me to try starting the car with the RPM relay jumpered, and lo and behold, it DID start, but VERY poorly and died after only a few seconds. So at this point it seems the RPM relay is the culprit. After a few calls to local parts stores it looks like no one carries even a cross reference part, so it seems it'll have to be towed home and then I'll order one of Bitsyncmaster's solid state units. And on the chance it's another problem altogether, at least the car will be at home for further, pressure free diagnosis. My research says you can drive the car in an emergency situation leaving the relay jumpered, but it sounded so terrible that one time it started I wouldn't trust it for any distance.

Thanks again everyone for all the help. These situations make me realize I don't know as much about the car as I think I do (any problem I've fixed hasn't happened twice yet), and that my phone is missing many SEDOC numbers! :)

[Ron]

I'd almost bet you have some fuel fouled plugs now and if you let it run a bit (at high idle if necessary), it will clear up...or by the time you get it home if you haven't tried it already.

[Bitsyncmaster]

If it fires when your cranking the engine and then dies when you release the key, I bet your white wire on the resistor bank is not making contact. It could be the bulkhead connection or a burned out resistor.

If you have a volt meter, turn the key to on, and check for voltage (+12 volt) on that white wire.

[DL4567]

Thanks so much for the continued responses. You guys are the best! I think I've pretty much confirmed that it was the RPM relay all along....

After having no luck with the local auto parts stores, my friend offered to put the car in his garage while I order and wait for a new relay to arrive, and we figured the best way to get it up his driveway and in his garage was to jumper the relay and start it up. I expected it was wishful thinking that it would make it even that far, based on how insanely rough it ran for the few seconds it ran on the previous starting attempt with the relay jumpered. And that it died at the end of that attempt.

So I hook up the jumper again, hop in the driver's seat and turn the key. To our astonishment, it fired right up and sounded great! We couldn't believe it. So after it was idling perfectly for about 30 seconds, I said, "gee, I'm tempted to just drive it home now." And that's what I did. My friend followed in another car, but the D made the drive just fine. It did have some trouble accelerating, but that was to be expected since my readings said driving it like that is not ideal but can be done to get you home in an emergency. Guess this also explains the slight accelerating hesitation last night? If the RPM relay was about to fail.....

So now it's back home, safe inside, and I can wait for a new relay to arrive without being in any hurry. It's crazy how this complex machine of parts can be rendered completely inoperable by the failure of one little part. And apparently there are a lot of such little parts that make the car undriveable. I wish that wasn't the case! Oh well, I learned some things with this experience and hopefully will be smarter next time something goes wrong.

Thanks so much again for all the help, this forum and everyone (or most, haha) on it are really great. :)

P.S. FYI, O'Reilly Auto Parts has recently upgraded their computer system to include many obscure cars. The guy couldn't find the relay by any part number I threw at him over the phone, but when I hesitated to answer his question about the make of the car, he said with the upgrade you'd be surprised what all is in there. He looked up DeLorean and was browsing through just DeLorean pages for a while before giving up. I fully support our DMC vendors of course, but in a pinch it could be useful.

[Dangermouse]

As i read this thread, i was just going to offer a loan of my RPM relay but then I got to the end and it's all "happily ever after"

Still, if you need it to prove it's at fault let me know.

[DL4567]

As i read this thread, i was just going to offer a loan of my RPM relay but then I got to the end and it's all "happily ever after"

Still, if you need it to prove it's at fault let me know.

Hehe, it's funny you mention that. There was a period of time late this afternoon when I was considering calling you and asking to borrow your relay so I could drive my D home and then bring you back your relay, but the more I thought about it it seemed like a lot more trouble than just towing it home. Oh well, glad it worked out. Suppose I could try putting the old relay back in and if it doesn't start again that would 100% confirm it. Or can they go back to "working" intermittently?

[ramblinmike]

Hehe, it's funny you mention that. There was a period of time late this afternoon when I was considering calling you and asking to borrow your relay so I could drive my D home and then bring you back your relay, but the more I thought about it it seemed like a lot more trouble than just towing it home. Oh well, glad it worked out. Suppose I could try putting the old relay back in and if it doesn't start again that would 100% confirm it. Or can they go back to "working" intermittently?

Those relays are such a common failure point that your diagnosis is probably dead on. Just throw a small jumper wire with male spade terminals in your ashtray. If (when) it happens again jumper it and off you go. I've been stranded exactly once in 8+ years of ownership. I had that jumper I made up with me and was going again in 5 minutes.

[stevedmc]

Those relays are such a common failure point that your diagnosis is probably dead on. Just throw a small jumper wire with male spade terminals in your ashtray. If (when) it happens again jumper it and off you go. I've been stranded exactly once in 8+ years of ownership. I had that jumper I made up with me and was going again in 5 minutes.

He could also just carry a spare RPM relay as well. Although, he may never have another failure after he installs Dave's relay. Dave's relay is the Cadillac of RPM relays and should never fail.

Cheap insurance is to just buy a relay from Amazon.com for just $13.50. I don't use an RPM relay since I am carbureted but if I was still running K-Jet I would carry a spare. $13.50 is a small price to pay for piece of mind.


RPM Relay
Beck Arnley 203-0066
$13.50
http://www.amazon.com/Beck-Arnley-203-0066-Relay/dp/B000CB0DPO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1342535114&sr=8-1&keywords=203-0066

[DL4567]

Those relays are such a common failure point that your diagnosis is probably dead on. Just throw a small jumper wire with male spade terminals in your ashtray. If (when) it happens again jumper it and off you go. I've been stranded exactly once in 8+ years of ownership. I had that jumper I made up with me and was going again in 5 minutes.

Same here, I've had this car 8 years next week and this is the only time I couldn't get it started without it being something real obvious like a dead battery. I'm ordering one of Dave M.'s relays, but I'll leave the jumper wire in the car since it takes up almost no space. It'll probably be useful for jumpering something else one day.

[sphiend]

Hehe, it's funny you mention that. There was a period of time late this afternoon when I was considering calling you and asking to borrow your relay so I could drive my D home and then bring you back your relay, but the more I thought about it it seemed like a lot more trouble than just towing it home. Oh well, glad it worked out. Suppose I could try putting the old relay back in and if it doesn't start again that would 100% confirm it. Or can they go back to "working" intermittently?

I have my old relay in the basement if you need to borrow it for testing or to make your car drivable while you wait for a replacement. It was fine when the solid state unit was installed.

[Chris4099]

Years ago I replaced the RPM relay as preventative maintenance. I then placed my old relay (still works) in the cubby compartment as an emergency spare. I figured it would more likely be used by another D owner during a caravan or other club event then myself. I've since switched to the solid state unit and still have the spare for any other owner that may need it. I do the same for belts. Replace before they break and keep the old one as an emergency spare. Never understood why people carry new spares in the event their old part fails. Just replace when you can to avoid roadside work.

Only time I ever needed a tow in 9 years of ownership was when my clutch slave cylinder went out. Not exactly something that I would keep a spare on-hand or be able to do in the parking lot of my work. :D

[DL4567]

To put this thread completely to bed, just wanted to give an update...

I've driven the car twice now since installing Dave's solid-state RPM relay, and everything runs perfectly. Starts up immediately with a turn of the key, just like it used to. Maybe even a bit better now. :)
Although on the first drive I picked up a nail in one of the tires, which had to be patched. I swear, this car. You fix one thing, and next time you drive it....

[jawn101]

I swear, this car. You fix one thing, and next time you drive it....

No joke. But that's why we love them.

Glad you got it fixed and great to see another well-earned kudo for Dave's superb engineering.

[SamHill]

I don't use an RPM relay since I am carbureted but if I was still running K-Jet I would carry a spare. $13.50 is a small price to pay for piece of mind.


RPM Relay
Beck Arnley 203-0066
$13.50
http://www.amazon.com/Beck-Arnley-203-0066-Relay/dp/B000CB0DPO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1342535114&sr=8-1&keywords=203-0066


Great link for the K-jetters Steve. How did the Autozone project work out?

[stevedmc]

Great link for the K-jetters Steve. How did the Autozone project work out?

So far I haven't heard back from them.