help car won't start

[Silverbullet]

If you think that sender might be destined for the garbage can, then it probably wouldn't hurt to try a few rescue efforts on it before you get a new one.

If you think it might just be that it's not sliding smooth anymore, it could be there is some gunk in and around the inside of the column or the float. I wonder if maybe you tried to soak it overnight in some kind of degreaser if that would help free it up? Not sure what you might use though. Heck, try dish soap perhaps, but just get it all off before you dip it back in the fuel tank.

Or are you saying the float doesn't float anymore? I have never taken one apart, but I wonder if that float could actually break open a bit and basically get filled with fuel. "Water logged" sort of. I guess if you run out of options you could try and dismantle it and see if you can figure out what the problem is. Again, I don't remember what goes on inside the sender really or how you would take it apart.

Last time I checked, DMCX sold fuel senders for $99. And if I'm not mistaken they might be better calibrated than the old originals. Like another member said, you could conceivably go with the fuel pump & sender combo, but if your fuel pump is fine, that's a bit of an overkill.

The good news is it sounds like everything else from the sender wiring back to the gauge is working fine.

As for you wondering if there was something else making you stall other than just running out of gas, I would suggest solving the thing you know was a problem, that being that you added some gas and it started right up. I would chalk the engine dying up to no fuel until proven otherwise. You could start doing all kinds of things not even knowing if they were really a problem in the first place. You're right though, get the fuel gauge working and figure out how much fuel is in the tank, then subtract that from what you added. If it wasn't an empty tank causing the problem, we'll tackle that next :)

Ok... So who wants a Delorean cheap?.... lol... It does not want to start now... has gas.... I smell gas, in the back... so I cranks good... sounds like no spark??? what do i Check?
Thanks,
Craig

[David T]

Make sure you hear the fuel pump running. If you are sure it's running, press on the air sensor plate and see if it has any resistance. If it does then your problem is most likely spark. Clean the connections on the white ballast resistor on the firewall. My bet is the fuel pump is not running. Most likely the RPM relay is bad. Jumper it and try again. Or the # 7 fuse is melted.
David Teitelbaum

[Silverbullet]

Make sure you hear the fuel pump running. If you are sure it's running, press on the air sensor plate and see if it has any resistance. If it does then your problem is most likely spark. Clean the connections on the white ballast resistor on the firewall. My bet is the fuel pump is not running. Most likely the RPM relay is bad. Jumper it and try again. Or the # 7 fuse is melted.
David Teitelbaum

I will look at#7. This car has a switch that turns on the fuel pump, on the consol...so when you turn on the car the pump goes on, if you turn the switch off it shuts off the pump, car dies. I started a new thread, as the Float issue has been solved... How do I test for voltage on the Ballast?

And... Thanks

[Silverbullet]

Pic of Ballast
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o19/AtHomeSoda/Ballast.jpg

[Silverbullet]

Ok, just got the car, I drove it about a 1/2 mile, it started losing power...and died. It did not want to re-start, 5 min later it did start, and ran like a 1/4 mile and died again. The gas gauge read full, I took gas cap off, and shook the car, did not hear swishing... I put 2 gallons of gas in the car, and it started. I found the Float was stuck at the top, but it looked like more than 2 gallons of gas in the tank.. Next day It started, I moved it a few feet to do some clean up..Later it won't start.

It cranks great, I can smell fuel in the back.. What should I look at? What voltage should I get at the coil? Ballast? where to measure? Here is a pic, and Thanks....
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o19/AtHomeSoda/Ballast.jpg

[nullset]

How long was it sitting?

Sounds like bad gas and/or clogged injectors. I'd definitely drain the gas tank if it was sitting for any period of time and clean everything, then put in some fresh gas.

[Jonathan]

Pic of Ballast
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o19/AtHomeSoda/Ballast.jpg

Well holy jumpin', 5 years later I finally found someone with the same erroneous ballast resistor wiring as I once had!!

Not sure if you can zoom in on the ballast picture, or take another one close up, but in a nutshell, that lower left pin is not supposed to have a wire on it. Instead the one on the upper right is supposed to have two. I'll see if I can scrounge up the wiring colours, but in the meantime, here are two pictures, before and after, of my car and the ballast resistor. I melted the one wire connector twice until I figured out where it was supposed to go... The car also coincidentally died when this happened. Once out on a road in town near my house... and the other time in the parking lot of an A&W cruise night.

Picture 1 (before)... notice the darker blue connector with the melty spots

12119

Picture 2 (after)... light blue new connectors, plus the double tabbed pin thingy that let's you connect both at the same time to the same post. You can find these at an Auto Parts store or something similar.

12120

[Jonathan]

Hey Craig,

I didn't see this thread until after I replied in your fuel capacity thread.

Maybe a moderator could move or copy my post to here?

Basically from what I see you have the wiring incorrect on the ballast resistor. Looks the same as I what I first had when I got my car. I explained more in the other post... with pictures :)

[WelmoedJ]

This is the wiring setup for the resistor pack as refered to in a previous reply.
(Courtesy of John Hervey's).

12121

[Silverbullet]

This is the wiring setup for the resistor pack as refered to in a previous reply.
(Courtesy of John Hervey's).

12121

Ok, this is what I have Close up... http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o19/AtHomeSoda/MyWire.jpg

[Jonathan]

Ok, this is what I have Close up...

And...

From the pictures posted from Welmoed and I.... as one Captain Jean Luc Picard would say... "Make it so!"

[Silverbullet]

Ok, I jumped the Whites to the top right, White with Yellow strip is on the botton, and Blue/Yellow is on top left Top... It still does not want to start... Do I check for Voltage at the + on the coil?

Just checked.. I am gettin 12.45 Volts on all 3 Terminals.. is that right?

[Jonathan]

Have you tried the fuel system tests as mentioned in the other thread? i.e. pushing down on the plate underneath the air intake to see if there is resistance against you pushing down on it? If you turn the key to accessories for a moment prior to starting the car, do you hear the fuel pump running? We could still do the RPM relay jumpering to test the pump as well. How does fuse #7 look?

[Silverbullet]

Have you tried the fuel system tests as mentioned in the other thread? i.e. pushing down on the plate underneath the air intake to see if there is resistance against you pushing down on it? If you turn the key to accessories for a moment prior to starting the car, do you hear the fuel pump running? We could still do the RPM relay jumpering to test the pump as well. How does fuse #7 look?

It would appear I have some "Creative" wiring... I have no #7 Fuse, and 1 Relay has been jumpered
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o19/AtHomeSoda/Wire1.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o19/AtHomeSoda/Wire2.jpg

[Jonathan]

Hmmm, Craig, that's interesting. Not crazy uncommon though, so don't worry, we'll get it sorted out.

Try this thread:

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?40-All-Wiring-Schematics

There are many of the original circuits in the first post, and then further down in post 6 I uploaded a diagram Sean made on this fuse and relay area.

Perhaps now would be a good time to reference that diagram and then sort of take an inventory of exactly what yours looks like and what the differences are?

You can see fuse 7 is a 20 Amp one, and I don't know why it would be missing or how the car runs somewhat without it. I would say put a new 20 Amp fuse in the #7 position and try it... unless another member chimes in here and says to do something else in the meantime??

When I got my car, the fuel pump was wired directly to the battery. It sounds like yours more or less is too. What probably happened was something quit, like the RPM relay or a fuse or whatever, and then a previous owner or mechanic didn't know how to fix it properly and started to get "creative."

I would focus on putting the car back the way the wiring is supposed to be, with standardized upgrades included of course.

[Silverbullet]

There are no metal parts on fuse #7 where the fuse would plug into... I assume they yanked the wires out of the box, and you see external fuses... What color wires "went" to #7, I see some taped and spliced below the box

Thanks

[Bitsyncmaster]

There are no metal parts on fuse #7 where the fuse would plug into... I assume they yanked the wires out of the box, and you see external fuses... What color wires "went" to #7, I see some taped and spliced below the box

Thanks


Both wires that were on fuse #7 should be brown.

[Silverbullet]

Have you tried the fuel system tests as mentioned in the other thread? i.e. pushing down on the plate underneath the air intake to see if there is resistance against you pushing down on it? If you turn the key to accessories for a moment prior to starting the car, do you hear the fuel pump running? We could still do the RPM relay jumpering to test the pump as well. How does fuse #7 look?

Ok, the plate under the Air Intake ie easy to push with the pump on... I hear a noise.... I went to the back and the Black mixture control unit is Humming...

How can I see if the pump is pumping? Loosen the side connection?

Thanks

[Ron]

I didn't see this thread until after I replied in your fuel capacity thread.

Maybe a moderator could move or copy my post to here?

Let me know if the split is not where you wanted it or ??

[Silverbullet]

Let me know if the split is not where you wanted it or ??

All good... I just thought the fuel tank size thread would not get good help for starting, so thanks...

Craig

[DMCMW Dave]

My recollection before the thread got taken apart was that he said that the car had sat for a very long time, he started it, ran it a while, put in more gas, and it died.

My educated guess is that all the old crap on the bottom of the fuel tank is now plugging up the pickup screen, filter, or the injectors. Or all of the above.

Before you do anything else, lift the fuel pump out of the tank and tell us what you see, or better, stick a camera in it and take a picture.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Ok, the plate under the Air Intake ie easy to push with the pump on... I hear a noise.... I went to the back and the Black mixture control unit is Humming...

How can I see if the pump is pumping? Loosen the side connection?

Thanks

The plate should almost bounce with no pressure. With the pump running I guess about one or two pounds of pressure to move it.

The humming you hear would be the idle motor.

[Bitsyncmaster]

My recollection before the thread got taken apart was that he said that the car had sat for a very long time, he started it, ran it a while, put in more gas, and it died.

My educated guess is that all the old crap on the bottom of the fuel tank is now plugging up the pickup screen, filter, or the injectors. Or all of the above.

Before you do anything else, lift the fuel pump out of the tank and tell us what you see, or better, stick a camera in it and take a picture.

Don't stick a flash camera in a tank with gas in it.

[Silverbullet]

Don't stick a flash camera in a tank with gas in it.

Ok.. the tank looked pretty clean... my guess is someone cleaned it, it has new hoses.... I can pull the pump out tonight... Is there an easy way to see if I am getting gas pumped? I have a fuel Pump Switch in my consol, thanks to creative wiring, so if it is on it should pump... Maybe put a long hose on the pump output and pump into a bucket?

Thanks.

[Ron]

All good... I just thought the fuel tank size thread would not get good help for starting, so thanks...

Craig
As you should have (Thank You!)




My recollection before the thread got taken apart was that he said that the car had sat for a very long time, he started it, ran it a while, put in more gas, and it died.
Just a FYI- Actually, the Tank Capacity thread didn't have any of that info in it. There was discussion of a new problem and this thread was started and all of it was moved here to put it together...



My educated guess is that all the old crap on the bottom of the fuel tank is now plugging up the pickup screen, filter, or the injectors. Or all of the above.

Before you do anything else, lift the fuel pump out of the tank and tell us what you see, or better, stick a camera in it and take a picture.

+1 !

[Bitsyncmaster]

Ok.. the tank looked pretty clean... my guess is someone cleaned it, it has new hoses.... I can pull the pump out tonight... Is there an easy way to see if I am getting gas pumped? I have a fuel Pump Switch in my consol, thanks to creative wiring, so if it is on it should pump... Maybe put a long hose on the pump output and pump into a bucket?

Thanks.

Without checking with a pressure gauge (you should have this tool to fix the D), you could pull the return hose near the pump and stick it in a bucket. If you get a good amount of fuel returned, then your pump is overcoming the primary pressure regulator which is how it should work.

[DMCMW Dave]

You mean like this?

12123

12124

[Silverbullet]

Without checking with a pressure gauge (you should have this tool to fix the D), you could pull the return hose near the pump and stick it in a bucket. If you get a good amount of fuel returned, then your pump is overcoming the primary pressure regulator which is how it should work.

The return hose is "Near" the pump? The pump has 2 hoses on it, where is the return hose?

Thanks,
Craig

[Ron]

Ok.. the tank looked pretty clean... my guess is someone cleaned it, it has new hoses.... I can pull the pump out tonight... Is there an easy way to see if I am getting gas pumped? I have a fuel Pump Switch in my consol, thanks to creative wiring, so if it is on it should pump... Maybe put a long hose on the pump output and pump into a bucket?

Thanks.
Pressing on the plate should tell you that...

...Once you are SURE everything is clean, you can carefully remove an injector, place it in a container, and press the plate. But you have to be careful about high fuel pressure and should have someone else turn the key on when you are ready to try it.
I hope you have a fire extinguisher handy when working on all of the fuel problems!

[Bitsyncmaster]

The return hose is "Near" the pump? The pump has 2 hoses on it, where is the return hose?

Thanks,
Craig

NOT the one coming from the center of the pump. That is the high pressure hose to your fuel system.

[Silverbullet]

NOT the one coming from the center of the pump. That is the high pressure hose to your fuel system.

Ok... Also FYI, not sure if this figures in, I just remembered, when the car was dying... the A/C fan shut off.... then came back on...then shut off... then on...
hummmmm

Craig

[nullset]

Ok... Also FYI, not sure if this figures in, I just remembered, when the car was dying... the A/C fan shut off.... then came back on...then shut off... then on...
hummmmm

Craig

How's your battery and alternator?

--buddy

[Silverbullet]

How's your battery and alternator?

--buddy

Battery is great, I was able to crank and crank and crank... and crank somemore... looks like a new Interstate Battery... can't check the output of the alt. as... it won't start...

[Jonathan]

It would appear I have some "Creative" wiring... I have no #7 Fuse, and 1 Relay has been jumpered
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o19/AtHomeSoda/Wire1.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o19/AtHomeSoda/Wire2.jpg

You're missing your #10 fuse too it seems. That's the A/C mode switch I believe. Not sure that's related to your cooling fans coming on and off. Or do you mean your blower inside the cabin? If that fuse isn't in there, I would guess that HVAC mode switch isn't doing much. Not sure what the failure mode is for it if there's no power to it.

One way to eliminate the cooling fans coming on and off for the time being would be to have the HVAC mode switch on something other than MAX A/C. Maybe put it to OFF for the time being. I suppose your cooling fans coming on when they shouldn't is better than not coming on at all.

One easy thing to do with that fuse block is to put the correct sized fuses back in each of those spots. And for the missing ones, like fuse #7, did you find out where the wires are that are supposed to go to the underside of that spot?

Have you tried much else electrical on the car?

- radio?
- headlights?
- side marker lights?
- hazards via centre console switch?
- horns?
- windows?
- power mirrors?

There could be some common reasons why some of your stuff isn't working. If you put it back the way it was intended, it might solve a couple of these things at that time.

[Silverbullet]

You're missing your #10 fuse too it seems. That's the A/C mode switch I believe. Not sure that's related to your cooling fans coming on and off. Or do you mean your blower inside the cabin? If that fuse isn't in there, I would guess that HVAC mode switch isn't doing much. Not sure what the failure mode is for it if there's no power to it.

One way to eliminate the cooling fans coming on and off for the time being would be to have the HVAC mode switch on something other than MAX A/C. Maybe put it to OFF for the time being. I suppose your cooling fans coming on when they shouldn't is better than not coming on at all.

One easy thing to do with that fuse block is to put the correct sized fuses back in each of those spots. And for the missing ones, like fuse #7, did you find out where the wires are that are supposed to go to the underside of that spot?

Have you tried much else electrical on the car?

- radio?
- headlights?
- side marker lights?
- hazards via centre console switch?
- horns?
- windows?
- power mirrors?

There could be some common reasons why some of your stuff isn't working. If you put it back the way it was intended, it might solve a couple of these things at that time.

Ok,,, I have some "Creative" Switches
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o19/AtHomeSoda/Switches.jpg

I was talking about the Blower Fan inside, I had on Max air.. it has been converted to 134, and was nice and cold...

radio? DID not try it
- headlights? Yes
- side marker lights? Yes
- hazards via centre console switch? Yes
- horns? Yes
- windows? Yes
- power mirrors? Did not try Looks like Switch is broken

Thanks

[Silverbullet]

Ok... UPDATE.... I am not getting any Spark... What do I look at next ECM? Coil?

Thanks

[Jonathan]

Neat!! You might have to get a little calculator mounted in your steering wheel next ;)

I was wondering where your window switches might be? Normally those red switches are the window switches. Middle one is the rear defrost switch (on or off), and two of the remaining four are for the windows, and the last two are what they call dummy switches. The dummy switches are just pieces of plastic to fill the spots.

If your A/C is blowing nice and cold it's possible that your compressor would have been the thing cycling quickly off and on, and going with that would be the cooling fans up at the rad. The interior blower fan though is not supposed to kick on and off with the compressor. Might be related to fuse 10 missing or some other creative wiring thing.

[Silverbullet]

Ok, I have 12.4 Volts to the + side of the Coil... but no spark to the plugs... So... Where do I look... and Where is the ECU?

Thanks,
Craig

[Chris Burns]

The ECU is located behind the driver's seat in a storage cubby. It's kind of shaped like a square.

[DeloSTM]

Rectangle with aluminum wings actually, but you can't see it anyway.

[DMC5180]

Your A/C blower fan Cycling ON and OFF is likely caused by the Fan Breaker tripping off and on. The originals are known to be slightly under rated. From the picture you posted you still have the Original breaker (w/ spade connections). Replace it with a (40 amp) stud type. You'll need to convert to Ring terminals like the the one next to it.

[Silverbullet]

Ok, So I now know that I am not getting high voltage to the spark plugs when cranking, and it hence won't start... What should I do...Coil + gets 12.4 volts, Could it be a bad coil? Is it the ECU? Lost here...

Thanks,
Craig

[DeloSTM]

If its a Bosch coil make sure it is wired up correctly. Bosch doesn't label the terminals + and -. 1 is negative. Then attach a test light to the negative terminal and make sure it flashes on and off while cranking. If it doesn't flash then your ECU probably is bad or the pickup in the distributor is bad, or the wiring is bad.

[Silverbullet]

If its a Bosch coil make sure it is wired up correctly. Bosch doesn't label the terminals + and -. 1 is negative. Then attach a test light to the negative terminal and make sure it flashes on and off while cranking. If it doesn't flash then your ECU probably is bad or the pickup in the distributor is bad, or the wiring is bad.

I am guessing the wires are right as I was driving it when it died. My Bosch coil is clearly marked + &- . How do I hook up a test light? Ground and - on the coil?

[Ron]

Ok, I have 12.4 Volts to the + side of the Coil... but no spark to the plugs... So... Where do I look... and Where is the ECU?

Thanks,
Craig

I would make sure that 12.4 volts is strong (remove and test with icepick probe or a medium sized bulb to ground instead of meter...or as mentioned above).

Did you check for spark coming out of the coil before checking at the plugs?
If not, keep following the power. If it has spark you can forget the ECU and check spark at cap, then plug wires or rotor button. If you don't have spark at the coil, check it. ...I can't remember exactly for a D, but rule of thumb is .79 ohms across the small terminals, and, 10.5K ohms across the (+) and center terminal for most types of automotive coils. If it checks ok, then check the ECU or distributor .

[Silverbullet]

I would make sure that 12.4 volts is strong (remove and test with icepick probe or a medium sized bulb to ground instead of meter...or as mentioned above).

Did you check for spark coming out of the coil before checking at the plugs?
If not, keep following the power. If it has spark you can forget the ECU and check spark at cap, then plug wires or rotor button. If you don't have spark at the coil, check it. ...I can't remember exactly for a D, but rule of thumb is .79 ohms across the small terminals, and, 10.5K ohms across the (+) and center terminal for most types of automotive coils. If it checks ok, then check the ECU or distributor .

I swapped in a coil from an old Mustang, and I still had no spark.... What is the best way to check for spark out of the coil? Hold close to ground and crank?

Thanks....

[Ron]

Did you try a bulb?

"Still" no spark from where? The plug wires?

Yes, just use a spare plug wire and push back the boot or use a phillips screwdriver and hold it about ~1/8" from the block.

[Silverbullet]

Did you try a bulb?

"Still" no spark from where? The plug wires?

Yes, just use a spare plug wire and push back the boot or use a phillips screwdriver and hold it about ~1/8" from the block.

Ok, I used my test light, it was dim on the + on the coil, the + has a White wire with a yellow stripe, and a Looks like added Yellow Wire. I used my test light on the Ballast and it was bright... So I used a jumper wire from the Ballast to the + on the coil, and tried to start, sitll did not fire.

[DeloSTM]

Did you put your test light on the negative side of the coil?

[Silverbullet]

Ok... This Sucks...

I used a wire from the center of the coil close to ground... cranked, it sparks... So then I pulled a spark plug wire, inserted the wire put close to ground, and it sparks... car still does no try to fire.... ahhhhh

And Thanks guys for the help...

[Ron]

Ok... This Sucks...

I used a wire from the center of the coil close to ground... cranked, it sparks... So then I pulled a spark plug wire, inserted the wire put close to ground, and it sparks... car still does no try to fire.... ahhhhh

And Thanks guys for the help...

No that's a good thing...:rock_on:

Spark is good, so go to easiest end of the fuel....
Pull and injector and put it in a container. Lift the 3 prongs/clips on it up with a hook or a strong bent coat hanger and it will pop out. Don't bend the prongs/clips too much.

If it sprays, you need to check others or see if the plugs are wet since you have been doing a lot of cranking w/o starting...(ie you could of fixed the spark, and now it is flooded...)

EDIT: just re-read some...The noise you heard before when pushing the plate could also be vibrating when spraying..

[Silverbullet]

No that's a good thing...:rock_on:

Spark is good, so go to easiest end of the fuel....
Pull and injector and put it in a container. Lift the 3 prongs/clips on it up with a hook or a strong bent coat hanger and it will pop out. Don't bend the prongs/clips too much.

If it sprays, you need to check others or see if the plugs are wet since you have been doing a lot of cranking w/o starting...(ie you could of fixed the spark, and now it is flooded...)

EDIT: just re-read some...The noise you heard before when pushing the plate could also be vibrating when spraying..

Ok I pulled an injector... I cranked for 5 seconds, and got about a 1/4 teaspoon of gas... So... now What?.....

And.... thanks

[Ron]

You didn't need to crank but press the plate and watch for a fine spray into the container...you can check that to be sure, but sounds like you are getting gas. I bet your plugs are fuel fowled now...

[Silverbullet]

You didn't need to crank but press the plate and watch for a fine spray into the container...you can check that to be sure, but sounds like you are getting gas. I bet your plugs are fuel fowled now...

So frustrated... I have Fuel, Air & Spark... which means it should run... there is not even a hint of of it fireing.... Ok I did drive it.. it ran... now it laughs at me. I have a very large, very heavy, piece of art.... so... what do I do next... Pull plugs and clean? Can't understand how it won't fire...

And.... Really... thanks, nice not to be alone...

Craig

[Ron]

So frustrated... I have Fuel, Air & Spark... which means it should run... there is not even a hint of of it fireing.... Ok I did drive it.. it ran... now it laughs at me. I have a very large, very heavy, piece of art.... so... what do I do next... Pull plugs and clean? Can't understand how it won't fire...

And.... Really... thanks, nice not to be alone...

Craig
No Problem!

If the plugs are wet or sooty from before and/or now flooded, the spark will not jump the plug gap...
Pull a couple easy ones at least and see how they look.

Double check that a plug wire is firing every once in a while as you do other things to see if you can catch it not sparking again...

[Silverbullet]

Ok... I think I just made headway..... I pulled an injector... turned the key on... "Pump switch on" I hear buzzing on the fuel mix thing... I push the plate and I get no gas.... so... IS THAT a good thing?????

I pulled a plug... it was black.. they are Autolite Platum... I brush cleaned it.. put it back..

Craig

[Ron]

Good that you found something lol ... If it don't spray, it is bad or you aren't getting pressure to it. Several things can cause it if it's pressure, so I would check a few more, and maybe pull the Cold Start Valve line off and put it in a container (it is next to the oil fill, has a blue top and two wire plug) But be careful because it can have pressure when the injector don't spray. Have someone turn the key on and off quickly as it has more pressure. Several routes depending on what you say it does.... (We are jumping to the Cold Start Valve to test because it is easier and pressure there should eleminate a lot down stream...)

How does the plate feel when you pushed it? When you tap it sharply, do you knock it way down and it comes back or does it just follow your finger with resistance?

[Silverbullet]

Good that you found something lol ... If it don't spray, it is bad or you aren't getting pressure to it. Several things can cause it if it's pressure, so I would check a few more, and maybe pull the Cold Start Valve line off and put it in a container (it is next to the oil fill, has a blue top and two wire plug) But be careful because it can have pressure when the injector don't spray. Have someone turn the key on and off quickly as it has more pressure. Several routes depending on what you say it does.... (We are jumping to the Cold Start Valve to test because it is easier and pressure there should eleminate a lot down stream...)

How does the plate feel when you pushed it? When you tap it sharply, do you knock it way down and it comes back or does it just follow your finger with resistance?

The plate just seems to follow my finger...

Ok, I took the line off the Blue Cold Start.. it was under pressure. I turned the key on.. and pushed the plate, no gas, and the plate just bounced...

Craig

[DeloSTM]

Post #50 did you use one of the spark plug wires to visually check for a spark or did you use a piece of regular wire?

[Silverbullet]

I used the spark plug wire, with a wire stuck in it.. so I could go to ground..

[Ron]

I assume you put the CSV line back on before you tried the plate?

The injector and Cold Start Valve (CSV) are both fed by the Fuel Distributor (FD). So, since only the CSV is getting pressure, you need a pressure gauge to see if it is because the pressure is to low (flows at the CSV line but not enough to open the injector(s) or the FD is stopped up or ???)

You might try pulling the CSV and check it with the line connected and see if it sprays to get a fair idea of pressure, but a gauge is what you are going to need now or down the road anyway, so I would get one if I could.

Here is what you have: Green = pressure, Red = no pressure:
12138

[Ron]

Another view (This is a slightly different setup WRT air flow and plate but the same idea for fuel):

12139

You didn't answer:
If you had the CSV line off when you pressed the plate down to watch the Injector, you have to go back and try it connected (since the pressure would drop too low to spray the injector!)

[Bitsyncmaster]

If your the one that had the resistor wires messed up, then maybe your ignition ECU has blown out.

[Ron]

If I'm seeing it right in the pic, he had the White relay wire normally on the upper right over on the upper left, so it wouldn't hurt anything...just when he hit the key there wouldn't be power for the relay to jump over and temporarily raise the voltage to the ignition...not a problem starting or damage wise...Agree? or ???

[David T]

This car has so many problems it is hard to know where to start. Instead of trying to start the car maybe you should just go over the fuel and electrical systems part by part, wire by wire and try to get it back to stock.
David Teitelbaum

[Silverbullet]

Ok, Since it seems I am getting Spark to the plugs, and when I pulled an injector out, and pushed on the plate and it did not spray, it might be a fuel issue.

I ordered a new Pump combo with sender... they are out of stock for at least a week. So What is the fuel pressure that should go to the fuel mixer? I can rig up a test pump and see if it runs... I have a new filter to install, so I can clean the gas tank to the mixer.

If it has crud in the mixer, how do you clean it out?

And... Thanks for the help!

[Bitsyncmaster]

If I'm seeing it right in the pic, he had the White relay wire normally on the upper right over on the upper left, so it wouldn't hurt anything...just when he hit the key there wouldn't be power for the relay to jump over and temporarily raise the voltage to the ignition...not a problem starting or damage wise...Agree? or ???

The relay wires are not documented on my schmatic so ????

But the white wire should feed the white/yellow wire though one ohm durring engine run time.

[Silverbullet]

The relay wires are not documented on my schmatic so ????

But the white wire should feed the white/yellow wire though one ohm durring engine run time.

FYI- here is my re-wire
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o19/AtHomeSoda/Re-wire.jpg

[Silverbullet]

Well, I found the pump & sender combo, and will have tomorrow... I can work on making sure the tank is clean, replace filter, and see from there... hope the fuel distributor and injectors are ok....

[Ron]

The relay wires are not documented on my schmatic so ????

But the white wire should feed the white/yellow wire though one ohm durring engine run time.

I'm thinking 4 relay wires=> 1 relay coil ground(ed), 1 Relay coil trigger (from starter), 2 contact points (to top of resistors).
Seems it can't be any other way and do it's job...?

Like this from old .com:

[Bitsyncmaster]

I'm thinking 4 relay wires- 1 grounded, 1 coil (trigger from starter), 2 to top of resistor(s).
Seems it can't be any other way and do it's job...?

Like this from old .com:

That looks correct.

Relay pin 85 should be ground
Relay pin 86 should be from the starter
Pins 30 and 87 are the Common and Normaly Open pins which are interchangable in this case.

[Ron]

Yeah..I think he is ok there...

I'm thinking confirm the tests (with gauge if poss) or plan on FD work or replacement...

[Silverbullet]

Yeah..I think he is ok there...

I'm thinking confirm the tests (with gauge if poss) or plan on FD work or replacement...

So... now I am lost.... I hooked up a CO2 powerd pump to fresh clean gas, and set it to 75 PSI and it pushed hard enough to return to the gas tank... I pulled an injector and pushed the plate and got a nice spray, that changed with pushing the plate... I tried to start the car.. no dice.

Then I pulled a spark plug wire and put a spark plug on it and cranked, it sparked... not like as strong as I think it should, but it jumped the gap... Then I jumpered the White Yellow wire on the ballast to the + of the coil, as when I used a test light it was not as bright on the + side of the coil as it was on the White-Yellow wire on the ballast... still no go.

Soooooo anybody have a idea.....

Thanks...

[Bitsyncmaster]

Try some spray starting fuild. Se if you get any firing of the engine. If that does not work, sounds like you need to do compression test.

[nullset]

So... now I am lost.... I hooked up a CO2 powerd pump to fresh clean gas, and set it to 75 PSI and it pushed hard enough to return to the gas tank... I pulled an injector and pushed the plate and got a nice spray, that changed with pushing the plate... I tried to start the car.. no dice.

Then I pulled a spark plug wire and put a spark plug on it and cranked, it sparked... not like as strong as I think it should, but it jumped the gap... Then I jumpered the White Yellow wire on the ballast to the + of the coil, as when I used a test light it was not as bright on the + side of the coil as it was on the White-Yellow wire on the ballast... still no go.

Soooooo anybody have a idea.....

Thanks...

Disconnect the fuel pump. Have someone spray starting fluid into the intake while you try to start. What happens?

This will tell you if the issue is fuel or not.

I'd pull and clean all of the plugs as well before doing this test. You may want to change the oil, or at least sample it to see if it has a strong gas aroma, which would indicate that your engine has flooded.

--buddy

[Silverbullet]

If its a Bosch coil make sure it is wired up correctly. Bosch doesn't label the terminals + and -. 1 is negative. Then attach a test light to the negative terminal and make sure it flashes on and off while cranking. If it doesn't flash then your ECU probably is bad or the pickup in the distributor is bad, or the wiring is bad.

Ok, I connected a test light the the - on the coil and turned the key on, light was steady bright, whild I cranked it just dimmed, did not flash on and off, just steady dim.. does the help?

Craig

[Silverbullet]

Ok.. I hooked up a Dwell meter to the car... and while cranking the meter goes to 0 degrees... does that help... what should it be... I was expecting like 32 or so...

Help....

[nullset]

I'm not sure what a dwell meter would/should do during cranking.

Try the starter fluid test.

I really think your fuel system is the most likely problem. Starting fluid will tell you if that's the case or not. Disconnect the fuel pump, and spray starter fluid into the intake while cranking. If it makes smoke and sputters, your problem is fuel. If it doesn't, then you can at least say that something else is wrong.

--buddy

[Bitsyncmaster]

Ok.. I hooked up a Dwell meter to the car... and while cranking the meter goes to 0 degrees... does that help... what should it be... I was expecting like 32 or so...

Help....

Hooked up to the coil or Frequency Valve? I've never checked the dwell on the coil. That was only done with points in the distributor.

[DeloSTM]

Make sure you are connecting the dwell meter to the negative side of the coil. If it is reading zero on the negative side that is bad. Your coil is never charging up. Make sure the lines from your distributor pickup are OK. There is a plastic connector that cracks and breaks from heat.

[Ron]

So... now I am lost.... I hooked up a CO2 powerd pump to fresh clean gas, and set it to 75 PSI and it pushed hard enough to return to the gas tank... I pulled an injector and pushed the plate and got a nice spray, that changed with pushing the plate... I tried to start the car.. no dice.
This indicates the fuel was flowing but had low pressure when you pulled the CSV line, as we guessed it might be. If you confirmed the tests above, your pressure is down...could be restriction to pump, pump, restriction on way to filter, filter, restriction on way to FD, FD...
You need a gauge to make this "easy".


Then I pulled a spark plug wire and put a spark plug on it and cranked, it sparked... not like as strong as I think it should, but it jumped the gap... Then I jumpered the White Yellow wire on the ballast to the + of the coil, as when I used a test light it was not as bright on the + side of the coil as it was on the White-Yellow wire on the ballast... still no go.

Soooooo anybody have a idea.....

Thanks...


Remember (below):


If the plugs are wet or sooty from before and/or now flooded, the spark will not jump the plug gap...
Pull a couple easy ones at least and see how they look.


I pulled a plug... it was black.. they are Autolite Platum... I brush cleaned it.. put it back..
Surely the other 5 are black too...all of them are probely wet now.

Clean or preferably replace your plugs (stick one in a spare wire off of the coil and put the base on the block then crank...you will probably see a spark but not across the gap like it should...
(It's hard to clean them after a lot of abuse....)

Dumping more fuel in it isn't the answer IMHO

If you are still getting good spark at the coil (?), forget the ignition dwell and light bulbs.

[DMC5180]

For verification purpose, It would be a good idea to pull the Distributor cap and check the rotor. The rotor has a resistor in it, I've seen them fail(burn up). Also strong spark will appear as a fine blue arc. When viewed under pressure tested conditions, it will be Bright blue. Weak spark will appear orange/yellow and be fat and fuzzy.

[Silverbullet]

For verification purpose, It would be a good idea to pull the Distributor cap and check the rotor. The rotor has a resistor in it, I've seen them fail(burn up). Also strong spark will appear as a fine blue arc. When viewed under pressure tested conditions, it will be Bright blue. Weak spark will appear orange/yellow and be fat and fuzzy.

Spark was blue... not a real ZAP like I am used to with Chevy's...but blue none the less... I will check the rotor... bugger to get to..lol..FYI. it has Autolite APP 103 Platium.. and gapped at .o48 not the .024-28... so I ordered Bosch HR6DS... and will swap them..

[Silverbullet]

Ok.... I got it running....

I bought one of the new Fuel pump/Sender units... Let me tell you it is a REALLY nice item. It fit great, was easy to install, and they even gave a plug the the old fuel sender hole. I wish all retro-fit kits were this nice. It also came with a new fuel filter, and I am betting I just changed the one that came with the car.

I also pulled the spark plugs, they were Autolite Platnum APP103 and gapped at like .050, way too big. I put in Bosch HR6-DS and gapped at .025. I put 5 gallons of gas in my empty clean tank, hit the key, and it fired right up... So at least it runs... I guess I will have to work on making it run great next.

AND>>>> Thanks to ALL the people on the forum for all the great help :thankyou:

[dvonk]

yay, good job! :aniclap:

[Chris Burns]

Congrats man! :thumbup2:

Looking forward to hearing more stories about your Delorean.

[Ron]

:burnout:

[DMC5180]

I'm Kinda surprised it ran on the BIG Gap plugs before. That's equivalent to running with worn out plugs with the OE coil.