Issues with cold start

[jawn101]

I know, it's weird. Normally we see hot start problems. So here's my symptoms:

When the car has been sitting a medium to long time (anywhere from overnight to 5 weeks, the longest I've gone without driving it) I have trouble getting it to start. I will have to crank maybe 5 or 10 times before the motor finally sputters to life. When it does come alive, it runs perfectly and idles great. Hot restarts are no problem whatsoever. The accumulator is less than 2 years old. Fuel lines are all brand new. Running Dave's RPM relay so the pump primes at key-on, key-off, etc.

Clint suggested the PPR O-ring, so that's something I'll check out but I always thought that was related to a hot start issue. I haven't tried the CSV plug swap yet but I will next time I have the problem.

What else should I check out?

[Jonathan]

If it were another piece or type of equipment, I would say it isn't getting "primed." I know it's not your lawn mower we're talking here, but I wonder if there is something going on that it doesn't establish the fuel pressure right off the bat? Are you normally in the habit of turning the key to accessories for a few seconds prior to trying to start it? Can you hear the fuel pump buzzing a little bit if you have it turned to accessories initially? If the pressure is disappearing and not being adequately replaced upon starting the car, maybe there is some sort of restriction it is trying to overcome initially? Have you changed your fuel filter recently?

EDIT: Just saw you mentioned Dave's RPM relay. So maybe it could still be related to that priming? I don't know too much about how that product works. Is it a set amount of time it pre-primes for? Perhaps in your particular car it needs to be a few seconds longer?

[David T]

Verify that the Cold Start Valve is operating during cranking when cold. My guess is that it is not. Typical reasons for it not to operate:
TTS (Thermal Time Switch) is bad
Wiring is somehow messed up
Bad connector/connection
David Teitelbaum

[jawn101]

Thanks guys. The plug swap between the WUR and CSV would eliminate the TTS and other wiring from the picture, right? Then the CSV would just fire all the time, which should get the thing running in record time. Is that the "best" way to test the CSV itself and narrow things down to that part of the system as faulty?

[DMCMW Dave]

Thanks guys. The plug swap between the WUR and CSV would eliminate the TTS and other wiring from the picture, right? Then the CSV would just fire all the time, which should get the thing running in record time. Is that the "best" way to test the CSV itself and narrow things down to that part of the system as faulty?

Yes but don't leave it plugged in once the car starts.

[jawn101]

Yes but don't leave it plugged in once the car starts.

Right on. Swap the plugs before starting, fire the motor, and swap them immediately back?

Then if it starts up properly in that configuration, the CSV or its wiring/supporting components are to blame for the issue. How do you eliminate the TTS as a problem? I think it was just a two-wire connector, can you just jumper those pins to bypass the switch?

[dmc6960]

I think it was just a two-wire connector, can you just jumper those pins to bypass the switch?

No no no no no no no! The thermotime switch is a peculiar one. Its designed to provide a GND for the cold start valve when coolant temps are less than ~100º for a maximum of about 8 seconds I think (I'm going off memory here). One input is hot from the starter circuit, the other is the GND output to the cold start valve. The ground input comes from the switch body and there is a heater element inside it to give it the ~8sec window of operation.

If you truly want to test it, you'll need the multimeter. Make sure there is no ohms (closed circuit) between the GND output and the sensor body when cold, make sure it goes open circuit when hot, and make sure there are at least some ohms (I dont recall what it should be) between the 12V (starter circuit) input and the sensor body for the heater element.

You can also do a continuity test on the wiring harness between the plug for the thermotime switch and the CSV to ensure that ground path is complete.

[jawn101]

No no no no no no no! The thermotime switch is a peculiar one. Its designed to provide a GND for the cold start valve when coolant temps are less than ~100º for a maximum of about 8 seconds I think (I'm going off memory here). One input is hot from the starter circuit, the other is the GND output to the cold start valve. The ground input comes from the switch body and there is a heater element inside it to give it the ~8sec window of operation.

If you truly want to test it, you'll need the multimeter. Make sure there is no ohms between the GND output and the sensor body, make sure it goes open circuit when hot, and make sure there are at least some ohms (I dont recall what it should be) between the 12V (starter circuit) input and the sensor body for the heater element.

You can also do a continuity test on the wiring harness between the plug for the thermotime switch and the CSV to ensure that ground path is complete.

Got it. That is easy enough, thanks for letting me know before I burned it up :)

With the kind of luck I've been having this month, I might even have the first ever failed CSV.

I have a lot of stuff to try tonight. I'll report back!

[David T]

The plug swap will only prove out the valve. That still would leave all of the wiring and the TTS. You cannot "jump" the TTS to bypass it. What I would do is just check for voltage at the right points when cranking and continuity to ground. There is a very nice sectional wiring diagram of just the CSV system in the Workshop Manual. I don't have one with me to give you the page. If the valve is working with the plug swap and the wiring checks out, you probably have a bad TTS. Do a visual. Maybe a contact is bent or broken off on the TTS or a plug is not put together correctly. I have seen where the plug to the TTS was forced on the wrong way. Doing the plug swap and having the motor start right up would confirm the CSV system is not working properly.
David Teitelbaum

[Bitsyncmaster]

EDIT: Just saw you mentioned Dave's RPM relay. So maybe it could still be related to that priming? I don't know too much about how that product works. Is it a set amount of time it pre-primes for? Perhaps in your particular car it needs to be a few seconds longer?

It primes for 1.5 seconds. I tested my car with 0 PSI (after sitting overnight) and got the full 42 PSI (control pressure) in about one second of prime. So I set it a little longer just to make sure.

Test your CSV by just putting it in a jar, remove the white ignition wire on the resistor, crank that cold engine for 10 seconds and see how much gas is in the jar. You don't really get much but it does not take much to get the engine started.

[jawn101]

There is a very nice sectional wiring diagram of just the CSV system in the Workshop Manual. I don't have one with me to give you the page.

Thanks Dave, Dave and David. I will check this all out tonight or tomorrow, schedule permitting. I think this is the wiring diagram that David T was talking about...

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12405&d=1344454099

It seems like the Three Daves are always coming to the rescue here.

[DavidProehl]

Nothing to add to the technical expertise already presented, but I'll mention that I'm having a similar problem now after installing my stainless steel lines. I mention this because Jon and I are running the same fuel lines. With my OEM lines the car would fire up instantly even after sitting for weeks. Now after sitting for a week it takes a few attempts. It is possible that I broke something else when installing but it seems odd that we have the same thing happening. Could be cooincidence.

Jon - How long has this been happening?

[jawn101]

Nothing to add to the technical expertise already presented, but I'll mention that I'm having a similar problem now after installing my stainless steel lines. I mention this because Jon and I are running the same fuel lines. With my OEM lines the car would fire up instantly even after sitting for weeks. Now after sitting for a week it takes a few attempts. It is possible that I broke something else when installing but it seems odd that we have the same thing happening. Could be cooincidence.

Jon - How long has this been happening?

Ah, another David enters the fray. :) It has only been really bad since we put the motor back in, actually - so I have great hopes for a simple bad/dirty connection since there was a lot of stuff disconnected for that little project. I also think my battery is weak due to age so that may be contributing.

[dmc6960]

Nothing to add to the technical expertise already presented, but I'll mention that I'm having a similar problem now after installing my stainless steel lines. I mention this because Jon and I are running the same fuel lines. With my OEM lines the car would fire up instantly even after sitting for weeks. Now after sitting for a week it takes a few attempts. It is possible that I broke something else when installing but it seems odd that we have the same thing happening. Could be cooincidence.

Jon - How long has this been happening?

Well, since both of your cars required disassembly of all the fuel fittings, it could be a loose fitting causing a rest pressure loss. Typically rest pressure affects the hot and warm starts though, since a firing CSV hardly needs any pressure. All this speculation would probably be prudent to wait until more tests are done tonight (plug swap). I have a feeling that'll fire it right up for you. It is also entirely possible both of you simply dont have the thermotime switch plugged in properly. Its a really crappy connection, the rubber boot is completely independent of the physical plug. Pull it back and make sure its fully seated properly. The connectors like to corrode as well so make sure they are clean.

[jawn101]

Well, since both of your cars required disassembly of all the fuel fittings, it could be a loose fitting causing a rest pressure loss. Typically rest pressure affects the hot and warm starts though, since a firing CSV hardly needs any pressure. All this speculation would probably be prudent to wait until more tests are done tonight (plug swap). I have a feeling that'll fire it right up for you. It is also entirely possible both of you simply dont have the thermotime switch plugged in properly. Its a really crappy connection, the rubber boot is completely independent of the physical plug. Pull it back and make sure its fully seated properly. The connectors like to corrode as well so make sure they are clean.

I don't think it's a loose fitting since I don't smell or see anything, but I will go around and snug them all to be sure. Agree on the crappiness of the TT switch connection though, the rubber boot on mine is completely gone. That may actually have led to moisture getting inside during my recent coolant explosion. Definitely worth checking out.

[jawn101]

OK, so I messed up the scientific method a little on this troubleshooting and will have to try again tomorrow after the rest pressure has had a chance to equalize. But here's what I did:

- Disconnected and cleaned the thermotime switch connectors (plug and switch ends)
- Disconnected and cleaned the CSV plug and socket
- Disconnected and cleaned the WUR plug and socket
- Noticed that the WUR and CSV plugs both had terminals that were sort of "pushed in" and pulled them forward with some tweezers
- Swapped the WUR and CSV, then tried to start the engine. It ran for crap but I realized that I had forgotten to plug the thermotime switch back in. Turned the motor off. Connected the TT switch and put the CSV/WUR plugs back where they belong. Engine started correctly and ran fine.

But now there's pressure in the fuel system so the tests will have to wait until tomorrow to run again. I'm not sure if those connectors in the plugs were far back enough to not be making contact or what. Is there a source for replacement terminals on those things?

[Jonathan]

Hey Jon,

Just adding to your comment about "loose fittings" leading to the pressure being lost. If you don't smell any gas or see any dripping on the ground, it could just mean the "leaks" are contained, i.e. internal and finding it's way back into the tank. That might mean the accumulator, or it might not.

Something about Dr Spock and eliminating whatever is impossible, for what remains is the truth, however improbable... ;)

[jawn101]

Hey Jon,

Just adding to your comment about "loose fittings" leading to the pressure being lost. If you don't smell any gas or see any dripping on the ground, it could just mean the "leaks" are contained, i.e. internal and finding it's way back into the tank. That might mean the accumulator, or it might not.

Something about Dr Spock and eliminating whatever is impossible, for what remains is the truth, however improbable... ;)

Yeah, could be. And you mean Mr. Spock, Dr. Spock was the parenting handbook guy :)

Still curious to see how it goes this afternoon. And also curious if anyone has a lead on how I might replace the terminals inside those connectors to the WUR/CSV, in case it turns out they're faulty.

[Jonathan]

Yeah, could be. And you mean Mr. Spock, Dr. Spock was the parenting handbook guy :)


Correct, you are. My bad, if it doesn't have flux capacitors or lightsabers in it, my details are a little fuzzy :)

[dmc6960]

OK, so I messed up the scientific method a little on this

:nono:


It ran for crap but I realized that I had forgotten to plug the thermotime switch back in.

Please elaborate on this. Did it start right away but run bad? If so that's to be expected with a continuously running CSV. In that instance the thermotime switch had nothing to do with it.

Now that you've gone through all the connections just try strait up starting it again tonight. If it fails, then do some multimeter checks of the wiring and thermotime switch.

[jawn101]

:nono:



Please elaborate on this. Did it start right away but run bad? If so that's to be expected with a continuously running CSV. In that instance the thermotime switch had nothing to do with it.

Now that you've gone through all the connections just try strait up starting it again tonight. If it fails, then do some multimeter checks of the wiring and thermotime switch.

I know, my parents (both chemists) would be appalled. I made too many changes at once without testing the outcome of each one. Sigh.

It started much faster but ran for complete and utter crap. So I guess that's what is to be expected. Tonight I will start again with the connections all in their correct place and see what happens, and then I will start testing the resistance and continuity on the CSV circuit.

[David T]

When you do the plug swap and start the car what you are looking for is to see if it starts right up quickly. It should if the problem is the CSV system. When it does start you must IMMEDIATELY swap the plugs back or the motor will run like cr-p. Once you have done that you need to troubleshoot why the CSV system is not working as it should.
David Teitelbaum

[jawn101]

OK, so when I got home from work today I tried starting the car and it was much easier than before. But it still wasn't like a hot start. My hot starts catch in under a second, this took a second or two of cranking. There still may be something going on but I didn't get to the electrical diagnosis yet - I was distracted by my alternator deciding it wasn't going to charge all of a sudden. Sigh.

[David T]

That sounds normal. A typical cold start will take slightly more cranking time than a hot restart because even though you do not need a lot of pressure, it does take a bit longer to get any pressure out of the pump and to the CSV. If my car sits for a week the first cold start can take maybe twice as long as a usual hot start. Take care of your electrical problem. Electrical problems can manifest themselves in a multitude of ways causing all kinds of seemingly unrelated problems.
David Teitelbaum

[jawn101]

OK, the plot thickens on this. I am still having the issue (I think the car wasn't "rested" enough when I did my last test). I double checked that the electrical connectors at the TTS and CSV are good. There is continuity on the U/B wire between the TTS and CSV. There is a good ground between the TTS body and the rest of the motor. One odd thing - on all the wiring diagrams, the TTS is shown as having a U/B wire and a R/W wire. Mine has a U/B and a U/Y. It doesn't seem to have been modified. Could this be an early-ish design?

Anyway, to keep troubleshooting. The motor is "cold" - that is to say it hasn't run since last night, but the ambient is pretty darn hot in my garage. I pulled the CSV out of the pipe and placed it in a jar. Cranked the motor - no spray, but it started right up. Then I swapped the WUR plug onto the CSV, still in the jar and cranked the motor again. A beautiful spray of fuel came out. So I reinstalled the CSV into the tube, reconnected the WUR and put my DVM on the terminals to the CSV. Cranked again - no voltage.

So, that rules out the CSV itself but not the TTS. I'm not sure why the motor was so eager to start after having sat overnight. I guess I did prime the pump a couple of times earlier testing out my rheostat jumper so that may account for it.

I don't think the ambient temperature in my garage (probably in the high 80s, low 90s) would be enough to cause the TTS to open, so it should have sent voltage up to the CSV.

Anyone have any ideas why I might have that U/Y wire in place of the W/R one? Should I be chasing electrical misconfigurations? Is there any way to actually eliminate the TTS from the circuit for a brief test before I just go buy another one?

[Bitsyncmaster]

OK, the plot thickens on this. I am still having the issue (I think the car wasn't "rested" enough when I did my last test). I double checked that the electrical connectors at the TTS and CSV are good. There is continuity on the U/B wire between the TTS and CSV. There is a good ground between the TTS body and the rest of the motor. One odd thing - on all the wiring diagrams, the TTS is shown as having a U/B wire and a R/W wire. Mine has a U/B and a U/Y. It doesn't seem to have been modified. Could this be an early-ish design?

Anyway, to keep troubleshooting. The motor is "cold" - that is to say it hasn't run since last night, but the ambient is pretty darn hot in my garage. I pulled the CSV out of the pipe and placed it in a jar. Cranked the motor - no spray, but it started right up. Then I swapped the WUR plug onto the CSV, still in the jar and cranked the motor again. A beautiful spray of fuel came out. So I reinstalled the CSV into the tube, reconnected the WUR and put my DVM on the terminals to the CSV. Cranked again - no voltage.

So, that rules out the CSV itself but not the TTS. I'm not sure why the motor was so eager to start after having sat overnight. I guess I did prime the pump a couple of times earlier testing out my rheostat jumper so that may account for it.

I don't think the ambient temperature in my garage (probably in the high 80s, low 90s) would be enough to cause the TTS to open, so it should have sent voltage up to the CSV.

Anyone have any ideas why I might have that U/Y wire in place of the W/R one? Should I be chasing electrical misconfigurations? Is there any way to actually eliminate the TTS from the circuit for a brief test before I just go buy another one?



My car was wired with those colors. My CSV was dead because of a bad connection in a bulkhead connector. It was the jumper between two connectors.

[jawn101]

My car was wired with those colors. My CSV was dead because of a bad connection in a bulkhead connector. It was the jumper between two connectors.

So you had the U/R and U/Y at the TTS as well then. OK, so I'm not crazy and there's no weird mod to trace down. Do you remember which bulkhead connector it was? I'm looking at the diagram and the only pin I see relating to the CSV is the U/B from the unused hot start relay on pin 47 in the large white connector.

Edit: attached the document I'm referencing with the pin number

[Bitsyncmaster]

So you had the U/R and U/Y at the TTS as well then. OK, so I'm not crazy and there's no weird mod to trace down. Do you remember which bulkhead connector it was? I'm looking at the diagram and the only pin I see relating to the CSV is the U/B from the unused hot start relay on pin 47 in the large white connector.

The jumper is on the back side of two connectors. It was done to provide a junction for all those "white/red" wires. I never fixed that bad jumper, just rewired the white/red wires in the bulk head box. It took a long time to find this because of the different colors than shown on the schematic.

[jawn101]

The jumper is on the back side of two connectors. It was done to provide a junction for all those "white/red" wires. I never fixed that bad jumper, just rewired the white/red wires in the bulk head box. It took a long time to find this because of the different colors than shown on the schematic.

OK, I just looked at the actual bulkhead connections. The only red/white I see are in pin 32 of the doc I attached above, which goes to the starter motor solenoid. There are two wires crimped into one pin and the connection looks fine. Oddly, that pin is electrically connected to the R/W on the CSV and the U/B on the TTS. Not the U/Y as I expected. What the heck??

Edit: There is also a U/Y in the blue connector, pin 24 - but that didn't have any continuity to the U/Y in the TTS plug.

[jawn101]

I just discovered that the U/Y wire in the TTS is connected to the starter solenoid by means of the jumper in the attached photo. U/Y->Grey. Continuity is confirmed there. I don't know exactly what each connection on the back of the starter does, but this could mean that the TTS only gets power while the solenoid is engaged/starting - which makes sense, I guess. But it's hard to imagine how it could be a quick process for the starter to engage, power the TTS, heat it up enough to close the circuit to the CSV and fire the fuel into the intake.

Any suggestions?

[82DMC12]

That's correct, the TTS gets +12 from the starter solenoid. The TTS isn't warming up from electrical resistance like the CPR, it's either warm or cold based on existing coolant temp (which closes/opens the circuit).

Andy

[jawn101]

Oh, ok. I get it. So is there a way to tell if the TTS is stuck closed or open? Seems like it's the likely culprit here but I like to test before tossing cash. :)

[82DMC12]

I don't have my shop book here but you should be able to check for an open or closed circuit by checking continuity between one of the pins and the engine block. Not sure where the cut off point is (its in the book) but above it, the circuit should be open. Which means the CSV can't get a ground in order to fire. A cold start valve firing when the engine is warm will cause hard warm starting.

Andy

[jawn101]

I don't have my shop book here but you should be able to check for an open or closed circuit by checking continuity between one of the pins and the engine block. Not sure where the cut off point is (its in the book) but above it, the circuit should be open. Which means the CSV can't get a ground in order to fire. A cold start valve firing when the engine is warm will cause hard warm starting.

Andy

Yeah, it looks like the pin going to the U/B wire on the TTS would need to be grounded for the circuit to be complete to the CSV. I just had a drive with the wife so the checks will have to wait until tomorrow.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Yes the CSV will only operate if the starter is engaged. Makes it hard to trouble shoot with a meter. The heater in the TTS is there to prevent the CSV from running for to long (think 10 seconds) and flooding the engine.

There are juntions in the harness that splice some of those wire together.

To test the CSV you pull that white/yellow wire off your resistor block so the engine will not start. You should have the CSV in a bottle so your not flooding the engine.

[jawn101]

Yes the CSV will only operate if the starter is engaged. Makes it hard to trouble shoot with a meter. The heater in the TTS is there to prevent the CSV from running for to long (think 10 seconds) and flooding the engine.

There are juntions in the harness that splice some of those wire together.

To test the CSV you pull that white/yellow wire off your resistor block so the engine will not start. You should have the CSV in a bottle so your not flooding the engine.

I've already got the CSV confirmed working, now I'm trying to see if the thermotime switch is working. I believe the U/Y wire from the starter powers the heater and that the U/B wire completes the circuit to the CSV. So on a cold engine, there should be a path to ground from the U/B wire, a path that is broken when the element inside the TTS is heated up, either by the electric element or by ambient coolant temp.

[jawn101]

More info. The blue/black wire on the thermotime switch is grounded when cold. The blue/black terminal on the CSV harness is also grounded as a result. Pulled the injector again and disconnected the yellow/white wire from the ballast. Cranked motor - no spray from the injector. Another probe on a whim revealed that the R/W wire to the CSV is also grounded right now. Looking at the diagrams I can't see any reason why that would be the case unless I'm misreading the internal workings of a component somewhere.

[Bitsyncmaster]

More info. The blue/black wire on the thermotime switch is grounded when cold. The blue/black terminal on the CSV harness is also grounded as a result. Pulled the injector again and disconnected the yellow/white wire from the ballast. Cranked motor - no spray from the injector. Another probe on a whim revealed that the R/W wire to the CSV is also grounded right now. Looking at the diagrams I can't see any reason why that would be the case unless I'm misreading the internal workings of a component somewhere.

The CSV and the heater in the TTS get there power (+12) from the white/red wire which is only hot when the starter is cranking. Your working back to that same problem I had but what are the odds of that?

[jawn101]

The CSV and the heater in the TTS get there power (+12) from the white/red wire which is only hot when the starter is cranking. Your working back to that same problem I had but what are the odds of that?

Would be weird for sure. Why would the red/white wire be grounded when cold though? Does it come off ground and go hot when cranking via a relay?

[Bitsyncmaster]

Would be weird for sure. Why would the red/white wire be grounded when cold though? Does it come off ground and go hot when cranking via a relay?

Your reading the resistance of all the components attached to that wire. Very low resistance CSV coil, and heater. If you unplug those that might give you the open reading. Who knows what else is wired since the schematic has errors.

[jawn101]

I wasn't doing an ohm measurement though, it was a straight continuity check between the red/white wire and the intake manifold surface.

Where did you end up finding the failed junction? I don't have any back-jumpers in the bulkhead connectors so I assume the junction is buried in the harness somewhere.

[Bitsyncmaster]

I wasn't doing an ohm measurement though, it was a straight continuity check between the red/white wire and the intake manifold surface.

Where did you end up finding the failed junction? I don't have any back-jumpers in the bulkhead connectors so I assume the junction is buried in the harness somewhere.

Continuity with your meter? I don't know how many ohms the buzzer will work at.

You won't see the jumper unless you pull the connectors out of the bulk head plate. Very hard to do.

[jawn101]

Ohh. The back jumpers are INSIDE the pontoon??? Behind the parcel shelf? Well crap....

For what it's worth, my DMM shows '001' when I probe the red/white on the CSV plug and touch the manifold

[Bitsyncmaster]

Ohh. The back jumpers are INSIDE the pontoon??? Behind the parcel shelf? Well crap....

For what it's worth, my DMM shows '001' when I probe the red/white on the CSV plug and touch the manifold

Yes, buried in the pontoon.

Unplug the CSV and TTS to measure the wire for a short to ground. It would not be shorted or your starter would not spin.

[jawn101]

Yes, buried in the pontoon.

Unplug the CSV and TTS to measure the wire for a short to ground. It would not be shorted or your starter would not spin.

With both the TTS and CSV unplugged, the R/W wire in the CSV plug still shows continuity to ground.....

[Bitsyncmaster]

With both the TTS and CSV unplugged, the R/W wire in the CSV plug still shows continuity to ground.....

According to my schematic is should be open but my schematic does not show the correct start relay modification. Try pulling the starter relay with the CSV and TTS and see if it reads open.

[jawn101]

According to my schematic is should be open but my schematic does not show the correct start relay modification. Try pulling the starter relay with the CSV and TTS and see if it reads open.

With the starter relay pulled (the one next to the ac panel light resistor) it still grounds.

[Ron]

Would be weird for sure. Why would the red/white wire be grounded when cold though? Does it come off ground and go hot when cranking via a relay?


I assume the W-R in the TTS is grounded too?

[jawn101]

I assume the W-R in the TTS is grounded too?

Well I have the "phantom" U/Y in my TTS rather than W/R... And yes, it appears to be grounded though the DVM is reading higher than 0... So not "beeping" per se but the resistance drops.

[jawn101]

OK, so I took off the rear parcel shelf wall to investigate the inside of the bulkhead connectors. They look OK to me, and I don't see any major jumpering to connect bundles of R/W wires - just the same two wires going to one bullet on the inside as on the outside.

[Ron]

Maybe this will help:
As I under stand it- When you turn the key to start, the W-R wire on the ignition switch sends power to the starter solenoid (via a jumper or on the U-Y wire through the transmission switch then relay if on an auto...info missing in schematic you posted above), hot start relay, cold start valve(CSV), and thermal time switch(TTS). The starter engages and passes power (from the main hot cable) to the hot start relay socket on the U-Y wire (unused). In the TTS the W-R is connected to the heating element, which is grounded ion the other end, so it starts heating up. While heating, the TTS also provides a ground via the U-B wire for the CSV and Hot Start Socket (unused). The CSV will spray as long as the key is down and the TTS heating element hasn't warmed up enough to remove the ground on the U-B wire.

Two things come to mind if using the U-Y instead of the R-W wire as the main trigger. The ignition would not have as much power available (not sure it would matter and too lazy to figure it out ;-) and it might not be a good idea to have the ignition powered unless the starter is truly enguaged....

[Now I'm wondering if MY mystery is an auto V/S manual thing lol]

[jawn101]

Aha. OK, thanks Ron. That does help clear up the operation a little bit. So just now I checked the coolant temp in the header bottle (72 degrees, so the thermotime switch should be called for)

Then I unplugged the TTS and measured the voltage on the U/Y wire (power from starter) during crank. It measured just under 11v (10.6 ish) with my ground lead on the intake manifold, but of course 0 when not cranking.

So basically what I am seeing is this:

- Voltage supplied to the TTS during crank with all wiring in its correct place
- Continuity from the TTS to the CSV
- CSV works when power is applied to it from the WUR plug
- No voltage to the CSV during crank with all wiring in its correct place

So, if voltage is getting from the starter to the TTS but not from the TTS to the CSV, even though the temperature is within spec for it's required operation, I guess that tells me that the TTS is malfunctioning?

[Bitsyncmaster]

I think the jumper pin is on:

Bulk head, Blue 24 UY To starter connection for ignition resistor bypass relay in engine compartment.

Why would that wire go into the bulkhead if:

Bulk head, White 32 WR To Starter motor solenoid There are 2 WR wires here.

[jawn101]

I think the jumper pin is on:

Bulk head, Blue 24 UY To starter connection for ignition resistor bypass relay in engine compartment.

Why would that wire go into the bulkhead if:

Bulk head, White 32 WR To Starter motor solenoid There are 2 WR wires here.

I don't see any jumper between the blue and white connectors but it is a little tough to get a good visual on the blue connector. The lucky thing is that the white connector is the closest to the relay compartment so it was easy to see that one. I'm still thinking based on my post #52 above that the TTS is to blame after all... am I way off base?

[Ron]

Aha. OK, thanks Ron. That does help clear up the operation a little bit. So just now I checked the coolant temp in the header bottle (72 degrees, so the thermotime switch should be called for)

Then I unplugged the TTS and measured the voltage on the U/Y wire (power from starter) during crank. It measured just under 11v (10.6 ish) with my ground lead on the intake manifold, but of course 0 when not cranking.

So basically what I am seeing is this:

- Voltage supplied to the TTS during crank with all wiring in its correct place
- Continuity from the TTS to the CSV
- CSV works when power is applied to it from the WUR plug
- No voltage to the CSV during crank with all wiring in its correct place

So, if voltage is getting from the starter to the TTS but not from the TTS to the CSV, even though the temperature is within spec for it's required operation, I guess that tells me that the TTS is malfunctioning?The bottle temp may be way different than the TTS, depending on how long it has been sitting and/or running....


When you say, "No voltage to the CSV during crank with all wiring in its correct place" did you measure it directly or assume this because it can spray but don't spray? If the latter, it could be the wire feeding and/or grounding it.
Note the CSV and TTS have two terminals each which are tied together in sets -- what you read on one, you should read on the other...

[jawn101]

The bottle temp may be way different than the TTS, depending on how long it has been sitting and/or running....


When you say, "No voltage to the CSV during crank with all wiring in its correct place" did you measure it directly or assume this because it can spray but don't spray? If the latter, it could be the wire feeding and/or grounding it.
Note the CSV and TTS have two terminals each which are tied together in sets -- what you read on one, you should read on the other...

The car has been sitting since about 7 pm last night and besides a few crank attempts hasn't run.

I had the CSV plug off the valve, and measured the voltage across both terminals in the plug (as in, + lead in one side, - lead in the other) - I assumed that was correct based on what I see of the ground path in the schematic.

[Ron]

I think the jumper pin is on:

Bulk head, Blue 24 UY To starter connection for ignition resistor bypass relay in engine compartment.

Why would that wire go into the bulkhead if:

Bulk head, White 32 WR To Starter motor solenoid There are 2 WR wires here.
To get in to the Yellow Bulkhead connector ignition harness (Pin 1)?

[Ron]

The car has been sitting since about 7 pm last night and besides a few crank attempts hasn't run.

I had the CSV plug off the valve, and measured the voltage across both terminals in the plug (as in, + lead in one side, - lead in the other) - I assumed that was correct based on what I see of the ground path in the schematic.Same diff...if it don't spray, you don't know if you are missing power or ground...
Measure from block or Battery(-) to W-R at CSV plug to see if power is getting to CSV, and, U-B at CSV plug to Battery (+) to see if it is getting ground (should when cold only).

[Ron]

I think the jumper pin is on:
Tell me about this jumper pin (I must of missed something???)

[Bitsyncmaster]

When I was trouble shooting my CSV not working long ago. I found the wires not all connected. So I posted my results and Dave S said there was a jumper that should have connected the group I had problems with. Sure enough I measured the resistance on the two bulkhead pins and it was 50 ohms (just from memory). I had also documented all the color differences I found but that was lost on the .com forum.

[Ron]

Jon,
An auto has a slew of wires going from a plug (upper right on most schematics) to the trans and governor computer. AN manual has 4 two for the reverse lights and 2 that just go in and right back out for the starter relay* (the designer must not of liked manual drivers...first thing I'm going to do when I get my manual is add a decent neutral/clutch switch!)

*Is this what you are referring to Dave?

[jawn101]

Jon,
An auto has a slew of wires going from a plug (upper right on most schematics) to the trans and governor computer. AN manual has 4 two for the reverse lights and 2 that just go in and right back out for the starter relay* (the designer must not of liked manual drivers...first thing I'm going to do when I get my manual is add a decent neutral/clutch switch!)

*Is this what you are referring to Dave?

No, I think he was talking about a jumper to combine several sets of red/white wires and I think he mentioned that it was between the white and blue plugs, on the inside of the pontoon. I don't see anything like that on my car though.

I measured the W/R at the CSV to the jump start post and got 12.5 volts. There's nothing at the U/B to the block but I assume I need to be cranking for that to show anything? My helper has run to the store but I will test that out again when she gets back.

[DMC5180]

Jon,

I just did a complete read of this thread so I'm going to refer back to some older posts you made. You said, you had continuity to ground when you probed the W/R wire. Note: it's (Base color/Trace color) when referring to wires. You keep posting it backwards but we know what you mean :biggrin:. For diagnostic purposes Unplug the WHITE bulkhead connector and do that test again. Then try it with TTS unplugged. The W/R wire Paired at the Bulkhead connector. Unless someone has done a hidden modification the reading should be OPEN.

[Ron]

I measured the W/R at the CSV to the jump start post and got 12.5 volts. There's nothing at the U/B to the block but I assume I need to be cranking for that to show anything? My helper has run to the store but I will test that out again when she gets back.No, test from W/R to (-) with key on START to see if power is getting there. U/B to (+) to see if power has a place to go.
If both pass the test then the unit is bad... (assuming the amperage is there to drive the CSV/component).

[jawn101]

Jon,

I just did a complete read of this thread so I'm going to refer back to some older posts you made. You said, you had continuity to ground when you probed the W/R wire. Note: it's (Base color/Trace color) when referring to wires. You keep posting it backwards but we know what you mean :biggrin:. For diagnostic purposes Unplug the WHITE bulkhead connector and do that test again. Then try it with TTS unplugged. The W/R wire Paired at the Bulkhead connector. Unless someone has done a hidden modification the reading should be OPEN.

OK, it isn't - The W/R at the CSV plug has path to ground. Unplugging the white connector with the two W/R wires didn't change that. Neither did disconnecting the TTS.


No, test from W/R to (-) with key on START to see if power is getting there. U/B to (+) to see if power has a place to go.
If both pass the test then the unit is bad... (assuming the amperage is there to drive the CSV/component).

W/R to - (intake manifold) with the key to start (cranking) yielded about 10v. U/B to + yielded about 12.5. So which unit did you mean when you said the unit is bad if these pass? Don't forget I confirmed the CSV fires fine with the WUR plug swap in place

What the hell?

Also it is worth noting that we are now in the heat of the day and the coolant temp in the header bottle is up to about 86 degrees, so we may be beyond the call of duty for the TTS today.

[DMC5180]

Okay,

Looks like you have something out of whack within the engine harness. With CSV,TTS and White BH connector unplugged the only NORMAL place for the W/R to still be attached is the Starter Solenoid. You may need to remove that connection too in order to isolate the W/R within the harness. Then if you still have continuity to ground, you know the problem is in the harness and it's time to start unwrapping things that look suspicious. Perhaps something got pinched in the reinstallation process.

[DMC5180]

Also it is worth noting that we are now in the heat of the day and the coolant temp in the header bottle is up to about 86 degrees, so we may be beyond the call of duty for the TTS today.

According to the WSM the TTS should function below about 35 C (95 F) above that it should be Open.

[jawn101]

First let me say thanks again to everyone for the help. I'm hot and sweating like a dog and just getting frustrated out here in the garage :)


Okay,

Looks like you have something out of whack within the engine harness. With CSV,TTS and White BH connector unplugged the only NORMAL place for the W/R to still be attached is the Starter Solenoid. You may need to remove that connection too in order to isolate the W/R within the harness. Then if you still have continuity to ground, you know the problem is in the harness and it's time to start unwrapping things that look suspicious. Perhaps something got pinched in the reinstallation process.

Ok. I disconnected the W/R starter lead. Now there is no ground at the W/R in the CSV plug. FWIW, the starter is completely disconnected right now as the W/R was hard to get to otherwise. If that matters I will reconnect the other leads, which were just the brown/red main cables and the U/Y lead.

So what does that tell us? The starter is bad? Incorrectly grounded somehow?

[DMC5180]

Post pic of the Starter Solenoid (disconnected) Please.

[Ron]

12639

[jawn101]

Post pic of the Starter Solenoid (disconnected) Please.

Gladly, here you go. Tight spot so I hope this shows what you need.

[DMC5180]

Gladly, here you go. Tight spot so I hope this shows what you need.

Well I hunch here. but I'm trying to verify it on my starter. Unfortunately I have headers and it's near impossible to see anything.

Can you post pic of the dark side (near block) of the solenoid. Thanks

[Ron]

The fasteners are from the front (of the car) through the housing and into the solenoid.
Maybe you are thinking of the strap some have that screws things up??

[jawn101]

Well I hunch here. but I'm trying to verify it on my starter. Unfortunately I have headers and it's near impossible to see anything.

Can you post pic of the dark side (near block) of the solenoid. Thanks

I can't really get near to that area because of the exhaust manifold, it's really really restricted. I hooked the starter up based on this diagram from our old friend Mr. Hervey:

12641

I had my W/R on the same stud he indicated here, right next to the U/Y

[Ron]

So as not to confuse someone else reading later...I don't mean the strap in the pic above messing things up (it's on an aftermarket and must be there but you have to wire things a little different).

But, putting it on the other side per the hunch will ground a wire (through the starter internals, not the case ).

[DMC5180]

Yeah,

I did the same thing between posts and saw that pic too. What I'm looking for is the position of the Copper strap between the lower Large stud and left small stud that you see in Herveys picture.

[jawn101]

So as not to confuse someone else reading later...I don't mean the strap in the pic above messing things up (it's on an aftermarket and must be there but you have to wire things a little different).

But, putting it on the other side per the hunch will ground a wire (through the starter internals, not the case ).

So do you think I had it on the wrong terminal? Should it go on the one closest to the block?

[jawn101]

Yeah,

I did the same thing between posts and saw that pic too. What I'm looking for is the position of the Copper strap between the lower Large stud and left small stud that you see in Herveys picture.

Alright, let me go try again to get a picture worth a crap of that side of the solenoid. Stand by....

[DMC5180]

So as not to confuse someone else reading later...I don't mean the strap in the pic above messing things up (it's on an aftermarket and must be there but you have to wire things a little different).

But, putting it on the other side per the hunch will ground a wire (through the starter internals, not the case ).

You lost me here Ron. Putting IT refers to what?

[jawn101]

Hope this helps! It's not great, the camera couldn't focus that close...

[Ron]

You lost me here Ron. Putting IT refers to what?
Sorry, I try to avoid that -Anything...the R/W wire he has with an unwanted ground in particular.

A stock solenoid is just an over grown relay (with gear drive coil) a load in and out, and, a control in and out. On most other solenoids (big three and most of the Asian), there is only a control in , where the coil is grounded to the solenoid case and there is a screw instead of a stud on the blind side (anterior)...so no need for a strap.

[DMC5180]

Sorry, I try to avoid that -Anything...the R/W wire he has with an unwanted ground in particular.

A stock solenoid is just an over grown relay (with gear drive coil) a load in and out, and, a control in and out. On most other solenoids (big three and most of the Asian), there is only a control in , where the coil is grounded to the solenoid case and there is a screw instead of a stud on the blind side (anterior)...so no need for a strap.

That's what I thought , just wanted to be sure. Seems like this unwanted ground is internal to the starter or Solenoid then.

[jawn101]

That's what I thought , just wanted to be sure. Seems like this unwanted ground is internal to the starter or Solenoid then.

Well crap. So now how do I troubleshoot THAT?

Would an unwanted ground at this wire cause all the symptoms I'm seeing?

[DMC5180]

Well crap. So now how do I troubleshoot THAT?

Would an unwanted ground at this wire cause all the symptoms I'm seeing?

Pull the starter and dismantle the starter solenoid. see the photos on Herveys site.

[jawn101]

Pull the starter and dismantle the starter solenoid. see the photos on Herveys site.

So here's a question that might be unrelated, but now that we've started tracking the starter I have to wonder... I've been feeling a strange drag on the car when I let off the gas - it seems to be losing speed faster than I remember. There's also a bit of a whine at speed. I thought it might be a wheel bearing going bad, but could it actually be that the starter is still engaged???

[DMC5180]

So here's a question that might be unrelated, but now that we've started tracking the starter I have to wonder... I've been feeling a strange drag on the car when I let off the gas - it seems to be losing speed faster than I remember. There's also a bit of a whine at speed. I thought it might be a wheel bearing going bad, but could it actually be that the starter is still engaged???

If that were the case I would expect you too here noises when it is idling. Think of the sound you here when you hold the key in the start position after it fires (makes you cringe)

[jawn101]

If that were the case I would expect you too here noises when it is idling. Think of the sound you here when you hold the key in the start position after it fires (makes you cringe)

Yeah, I don't hear anything like that. That noise is like a thousand screeching birds scratching their nails on a thousand chalkboards.

OK, so the starter needs to be rebuilt then. What a bizarre thing to cause a cold start problem, I should get some kind of prize. Is there a way to jury-rig the W/R wire to test and verify that the CSV fires without this bizarre failure?

[vwdmc16]

I dont think its the starter Jon.

[DMC5180]

Yeah, I don't hear anything like that. That noise is like a thousand screeching birds scratching their nails on a thousand chalkboards.

OK, so the starter needs to be rebuilt then. What a bizarre thing to cause a cold start problem, I should get some kind of prize. Is there a way to jury-rig the W/R wire to test and verify that the CSV fires without this bizarre failure?


I was thinking about a test. How about reconnecting everything (except the W/R at the starter) you won't get power to the TTS Heater element via the B/Y wire but so what. The CSV should still spray( in a JAR) if the TTS is below 95F while you hold the KEY in the Start position. +12V is coming from the Inhibit relay.

[DMC5180]

I dont think its the starter Jon.

Well don't leave us hanging. What are your thoughts?

[Ron]

Well crap. So now how do I troubleshoot THAT?
Check continuity from the stud you had it on to the solenoid case...(With the strap off!- remember,
W/R=>stud you had it on+>solenoid's internal coil=>the other little stud=>strap=>Starter motor=>internals...=>Starter case=>block=>ground!

...the W/R shouldn't involve the ignition while not cranking (on an early harness anyway...that U/Y wire change is bugging me still)

[Ron]

I dont think its the starter Jon.
I don't either... could be the solenoid coil has fried and shorting to the case.. not uncommon at all but usually it dont have enough strength to make the starter enguage then....

[jawn101]

W/R to - (intake manifold) with the key to start (cranking) yielded about 10v. U/B to + yielded about 12.5. So which unit did you mean when you said the unit is bad if these pass? Don't forget I confirmed the CSV fires fine with the WUR plug swap in place

For what it's worth - remember that I was getting some voltage at the CSV.

I will try the test with everything but the W/R wire reconnected....

[DMC5180]

Check continuity from the stud you had it on to the solenoid case...(With the strap off!- remember,
W/R=>stud you had it on+>solenoid's internal coil=>the other little stud=>strap=>Starter motor=>internals...=>Starter case=>block=>ground!

...the W/R shouldn't involve the ignition while not cranking (on an early harness anyway...that U/Y wire change is bugging me still)

Ron,

Just clarify this too:

EARLY STYLE Harness 2 U/Y wires from the starter.

LATE STYLE Harness 1 U/Y wire from starter.

Electrically the CSV functions the same but on the Later Harness they eliminate the Extra Relay contact of the solenoid.

[jawn101]

OK guys. Just tried the two suggestions above. I think we might all have a fundamental misunderstanding of this circuit.

- That stud that the W/R wire was connected to DOES ground to the engine block
- Trying to start the car with it disconnected evidences a complete lack of ground for that harness. The oil pressure gauge is pegged (isn't normally), the battery light isn't coming on/regulator not exciting, and turning the key to 'start' has 0 effect.

So I think that wire is supposed to ground. What are we missing here?


Ron,

Just clarify this too:

EARLY STYLE Harness 2 U/Y wires from the starter.


Yes, I have two U/Y wires from the starter spade terminal.

[DMC5180]

For what it's worth - remember that I was getting some voltage at the CSV.

I will try the test with everything but the W/R wire reconnected....


If the engine doesn't spin the fuel pump won't run, but you should have residual (Accumulator)Fuel pressure from priming the system.

[Ron]

Ron,

Just clarify this too:

EARLY STYLE Harness 2 U/Y wires from the starter.

LATE STYLE Harness 1 U/Y wire from starter.

Electrically the CSV functions the same but on the Later Harness they eliminate the Extra Relay contact of the solenoid.Which removes all doubt about my suspicions in the other thread about an early late crossbreeding since they both have two U/Y wires at the starter (factory junctions).

(...and I am STILL not going to look on my D :biggrin:)

[vwdmc16]

Well don't leave us hanging. What are your thoughts?

The white/red wire between the TTS and the CSV must be bad some how, not enough power to is being conducted to fire the CSV.

[DMC5180]

The white/red wire between the TTS and the CSV must be bad some how, not enough power to is being conducted to fire the CSV.

OK,

Well, He does not have a W/R wire between those per the schematic it's U/B. His TTS plug is U/B and U/Y (Early style harness) the U/Y is coming from the Starter ( paired wires) U/Y at the connector. Now that Connector is a Replacement Blue Spade terminal. It is possible he has a poor connection at the terminal Crimp.

[Ron]

Dennis:That makes sense to me.

Jon: I don't understand "tried two suggestions"-- only one suggestion required no strap...
seems you are you saying you wired it all up except the strap and all kinds of things went dead???
If so, the start should be dead because the W/R triggers it through the strap...the CSV and TTS should get power to the W/R wires on a early harness per the schematic, but with the change to U\Y on the late harness (and what ever else they did) it woulod be hard to say if they would function.

Both studs should show continuity to ground because of the strap...which is why I said to remove the strap to do the test.

[DMC5180]

OK,

Well, He does not have a W/R wire between those per the schematic it's U/B. His TTS plug is U/B and U/Y (Early style harness) the U/Y is coming from the Starter ( paired wires) U/Y at the connector. Now that Connector is a Replacement Blue Spade terminal. It is possible he has a poor connection at the terminal Crimp.

Lets be clear here, with this wire configuration. The B/Y only provides power to the TTS heating element and has been confirmed at 12.5 V. That voltage comes straight from (+) Battery cable when Solenoid internal contacts are bridged.

A voltage drop on the W/R wire at the CSV plug is from the Inhibit relay circuit. The W/R wires are (paired) coming out of the WHITE BH connector which comes from the inhibit relay.

[jawn101]

Dennis:That makes sense to me.

Jon: I don't understand "tried two suggestions"-- only one suggestion required no strap...
seems you are you saying you wired it all up except the strap and all kinds of things went dead???
If so, the start should be dead because the W/R triggers it through the strap...the CSV and TTS should get power to the W/R wires on a early harness per the schematic, but with the change to U\Y on the late harness (and what ever else they did) it woulod be hard to say if they would function.

Both studs should show continuity to ground because of the strap...which is why I said to remove the strap to do the test.

OK, I think I misunderstood something here too. What is the strap you are talking about. Is that the little copper piece between the post for the two red wires/brown bundle and the other, unused small stud? I did not remove that, I didn't know it came off. That is not where the W/R wire was attached. It was attached to the small stud directly above the spade terminal in this photo. I've edited the picture to clarify. Was this not connected correctly? The post I indicated had the W/R attached is the one that I tested the ground on. When the W/R wire is disconnected from that post, all hell breaks loose.

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12643&d=1345433383

If I've done the test you were after wrong, I apologize.. let me know what I should do and assume I don't know what you're talking about - because I don't! :)

[DMC5180]

Jon,

Refer to your photo Here: http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?4817-Issues-with-cold-start&p=69803&viewfull=1#post69803

The little copper strap is in place in it's NORMAL position. That's GOOD. To do the TEST Ron spelled out, you have to remove the strap. It just sits under the nuts. Remove them and you can remove the strap. Refer to the Hervey photo for reference too.

[Ron]

NP!

First things first so I can answer the rest....The strap I'm talking about is shown in the pic you posted here (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?4817-Issues-with-cold-start&p=69796&viewfull=1#post69796). It is copper and goes from from the small terminal at 9 o'clock on the solenoid to the large terminal at 6 o'clock on the solenoid AND to the starter motor. I can see what might be part of it in the pic you just posted above? I just about has to be there if nothing else is on the 9 o'clock solenoid terminal???

[jawn101]

Jon,

Refer to your photo Here: http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?4817-Issues-with-cold-start&p=69803&viewfull=1#post69803

The little copper strap is in place in it's NORMAL position. That's GOOD. To do the TEST Ron spelled out, you have to remove the strap. It just sits under the nuts. Remove them and you can remove the strap. Refer to the Hervey photo for reference too.


NP!

First things first so I can answer the rest....The strap I'm talking about is shown in the pic you posted here (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?4817-Issues-with-cold-start&p=69796&viewfull=1#post69796). It is copper and goes from from the small terminal at 9 o'clock on the solenoid to the large terminal at 6 o'clock on the solenoid AND to the starter motor. I can see what might be part of it in the pic you just posted above? I just about has to be there if nothing else is on the 9 o'clock solenoid terminal???

OK. I misunderstood. So I should remove the nut on the 6:00 terminal that connects the solenoid to the starter, remove the small nut at 9:00, remove the copper strip that connects the two. Then I should reconnect the starter to the solenoid at 6:00, reconnect the big brown and red wires to the post at 12:00, reconnect the U/Y wire to the spade terminal... then what?

Thanks for sticking with me guys.

[DMC5180]

Wouldn't simply removing the Starter motor wire from the bottom stud do the same thing as removing the strap?

[jawn101]

Wouldn't just removing the Starter motor wire from bottom stud do the same thing as removing the strap?

Darned if I know. Does that stud that it's strapped to provide a ground or something?

[Ron]

Once you have the strap off of the 9 o'clock terminal just check for continuity between the 3 O'Clock terminal (with nothing on it either) and the solenoid case (or ground).
If it has continuity, either it is wired weird internally or toasted, so open it up. I'm 99.9% that will be the case if I'm following all that you have reported so far.
Check from both terminals to case (ground) while you are at it....

If it does NOT have continuity, you are probably reading a voltage to the plugs but not enough amperage is available to the CSV as I said before (and wolff suggested a few posts ago)...but let's wait on that....

FYI- I just reread it all...and you should not that the TTS gets heat from the coolant AND a internal element contrary to what someone said way earlier in the thread...

[jawn101]

Once you have the strap off of the 9 o'clock terminal just check for continuity between the 3 O'Clock terminal (with nothing on it either) and the solenoid case (or ground).
If it has continuity, either it is wired weird internally or toasted, so open it up. I'm 99.9% that will be the case if I'm following all that you have reported so far.
Check from both terminals to case (ground) while you are at it....


OK. I will try that tomorrow first chance I get.



FYI- I just reread it all...and you should not that the TTS gets heat from the coolant AND a internal element contrary to what someone said way earlier in the thread...

Yeah, I know. It's in the workshop manual that it has an internal heating element to make sure it doesn't fire for too long. But thank for the clarification for posterity's sake, I have a feeling this thread will be useful for others some day.

[DMC5180]

Darned if I know. Does that stud that it's strapped to provide a ground or something?

Which stud? The big studs are just Contact Posts(bolts) in the end cap. see Hervey's site for photo of what burnt contacts look like. The photo I refer to is just to the right of the one you copied to this thread.

[Ron]

Wouldn't simply removing the Starter motor wire from the bottom stud do the same thing as removing the strap?
Probably if it is on top...It's just a copper bolt with nothing connected inside... sometimes the disk sticks to it and the insulator on the plunger cracks which could be a ground source....not likely, but removing both eliminates alll question... even though I didn't think of it at the time LOL!!!!

[Ron]

Which stud? The big studs are just Contact Posts(bolts) in the end cap. see Hervey's site for photo of what burnt contacts look like. The photo I refer to is just to the right of the one you copied to this thread.
Dang...wish I knew that pic was there a long time ago lol
12644

[DMC5180]

IIRC, that end cap came off the the starter solenoid of my friends car. I had a similar situation with my solenoid (intermittent plunger contacting). The solenoid would solidly pull to engage the bendix, but the motor would not turn.

What happened is very evident here in the photo. The lower stud which connects too the motor lead gets hot (which over time just gets worse). The stud gets so hot it melts the plastic end cap. You can see the displacement of plastic. On the other side of the Cap is the nut and SPRING type lock washer. The melted plastic allows the Washer to relax, which pulls the head of the contact stud into the cap and away from the plunger bar creating a gap that occasionally doesn't close. That's the Intermittent that I had. I was able to replace just the END CAP from a known good used starter and its been perfect ever since. That was 10 years ago.

[jawn101]

So here's the thing I am still trying to understand, guys. I'm nowhere near the car now (have to go to work sometimes to support my DeLorean habit) but what exactly are we chasing here again? That W/R wire seems to ground a lot of things in the harness. So if I remove the strap on the starter and determine that the terminal to which the W/R wire was attached either still grounds or no longer provides a ground, what will that tell me? If everything else seems to be working outside the CSV, what will we learn from this test? Where does that U/Y wire on the spade terminal factor in?

I get the feeling that the answers to these questions are scattered through all the posts above, but this thread has become so convoluted that I can't follow what we're even chasing anymore.

I will do the ground test with the strap removed as soon as I get home this afternoon, all the same...

[Ron]

OK. Refer to the pic in my last post. Re-reading, it seems that you don't understand that the W/R wire is supposed to be grounded by the solenoid while it sits parked (Note there is no purpose in this--just a coincidence). When you crank the engine over, the W/R wire then has 12V (+)on it (from the keyswitch circuit AND the disk in the solenoid). So you need to remove the strap to break the ground connection it makes to the starter motor (the external source of ground WRT the solenoid) so that you can see if there is still ground on the R/Ws terminal, which would indicate that the solenoid has an internal short to ground.

It may not be the problem but you must check this to go any further.

[jawn101]

OK. Refer to the pic in my last post. Re-reading, it seems that you don't understand that the W/R wire is supposed to be grounded by the solenoid while it sits parked (Note there is no purpose in this--just a coincidence). When you crank the engine over, the W/R wire then has 12V (+)on it (from the keyswitch circuit AND the disk in the solenoid). So you need to remove the strap to break the ground connection it makes to the starter motor (the external source of ground WRT the solenoid) so that you can see if there is still ground on the R/Ws terminal, which would indicate that the solenoid has an internal short to ground.

I may not be the problem but you must check this to go any further.

OK, will do. The odd thing in my mind is the strange behavior in the dash with the W/R wire disconnected. The oil pressure gauge, battery light, etc. It seems as though that wire needs to be grounded.

Will report back tonight.

[DMC5180]

OK, will do. The odd thing in my mind is the strange behavior in the dash with the W/R wire disconnected. The oil pressure gauge, battery light, etc. It seems as though that wire needs to be grounded.

Will report back tonight.

I can't verify this right now, but don't several items in the instrument panel drop out when the key is in the start position while cranking. Which was a test you tried without the starter being triggered and therefore you had time to look a the panel to notice the item not functioning while holding the key. Normally the car would start quickly and you'd release the key back to RUN. It happens so fast you you don't pay attention to it. Unless you problem WAS with the key in the RUN position when the items did not function. I'm pretty sure it's a function of the ignition switch to do this. It maximizes Battery Current to the Starter for Cranking only.

Btw, did the Oil Pressure gauge drop to Zero as in NO Cranking pressure? Straight UP wold be no ground.

[jawn101]

I can't verify this right now, but don't several items in the instrument panel drop out when the key is in the start position while cranking. Which was a test you tried without the starter being triggered and therefore you had time to look a the panel to notice the item not functioning while holding the key. Normally the car would start quickly and you'd release the key back to RUN. It happens so fast you you don't pay attention to it. Unless you problem WAS with the key in the RUN position when the items did not function. I'm pretty sure it's a function of the ignition switch to do this. It maximizes Battery Current to the Starter for Cranking only.

Btw, did the Oil Pressure gauge drop to Zero as in NO Cranking pressure? Straight UP wold be no ground.

Yes, the key was in 'Run'. I always go to run briefly before starting to verify that the battery light comes on and the pump primes. In the run position, with the W/R wire disconnected, the oil gauge was pegged straight UP (no ground) and the battery light did not come on. This is not the case normally in my car.

[Ron]

OK, will do. The odd thing in my mind is the strange behavior in the dash with the W/R wire disconnected. The oil pressure gauge, battery light, etc. It seems as though that wire needs to be grounded.

Will report back tonight.This is what confused me when you said you tried "the two suggestions" and lost them. Not knowing if you somehow mixed the tests together or ??, I would now guess you didn't have all of the wires connected to the main solenoid and lost power, instead of ground (?if that is what you are thinking?--They should NOT be getting ground from there.) ...Because as I mentioned earlier, removing the W/R wire from the solenoid while cranking will cause the CSV W/R wire to lose power coming from the starter solenoid, of coarse, BUT it will still show ~12v(+) from the starter relay<=key switch.

[DMC5180]

"but the late style (with a B/Y instead of W/R)" No. It's the EARLY style with the B/Y instead of W/R. Jon, has the early style harness. :thumbup:

[jawn101]

Alright. My head is still spinning but I will do the test as requested. My wiring harness is the early style and is unmodified with the exception of that grey jumper from the U/Y wires to the starter, which appears to just be a 3" long extension, probably to keep the harness from being pulled onto the exhaust manifold.

I guess another worthwhile test would be to put a DMM across the spade terminal for the U/Y wires and ground and measure the voltage during cranking.

[Ron]

Alright. My head is still spinning but I will do the test as requested. My wiring harness is the early style and is unmodified with the exception of that grey jumper from the U/Y wires to the starter, which appears to just be a 3" long extension, probably to keep the harness from being pulled onto the exhaust manifold.

I guess another worthwhile test would be to put a DMM across the spade terminal for the U/Y wires and ground and measure the voltage during cranking.
LOL Slow down and hang in there...(and to help you do that- both of the harnesses I have out have the U/Y wires tied together at the starter with a bullet connector and grey jumper, factory ;-)

That would be a very good thing to check (especially if your harness was modified at the factory during a change over or whatever)!

off to big city for parts....

[jawn101]

OK, here we go. I removed the strap from the two terminals closest to the block. The W/R terminal still shows a ground. I removed the cap completely from the solenoid. It looks like almost new inside and out, as does the plunger and terminals inside. Anyone who's worked on my car with me can tell you it has an annoying habit of being really nice in places you expect to be crappy, and vice versa.

After removing the cap and plunger completely, I tested the ground on the W/R stud again and it is still present. Are we *SURE* it's not supposed to be there??

Some photos for your perusal...

[Bitsyncmaster]

Have you pulled the starter relay yet? And don't use continuity tests. Use ohms and report what you read.

By the way, there is no reason to use that blue/yellow wire on the starter. It can be connected to the white/red wire. Now if our cars did not have the "bypass relay" then you would need that wire. I think the bypass relay was a design change early in the design so they never changed the starter wires.

[jawn101]

Have you pulled the starter relay yet? And don't use continuity tests. Use ohms and report what you read.

Yeah, I pulled the starter relay yesterday and it didn't seem to make any difference. Do you have a specific test you'd like me to run with ohms instead?

[Bitsyncmaster]

Yeah, I pulled the starter relay yesterday and it didn't seem to make any difference. Do you have a specific test you'd like me to run with ohms instead?

Without any loads, CSV, TTS, starter and the relay (not sure if the starter relay grounds the normally closed pin) the wire should show infinity unless there is a load we missed.

Edit: Just for kicks, pull the blue/yellow wire off the resistor block with all the other loads disconnected.

[jawn101]

Without any loads, CSV, TTS, starter and the relay (not sure if the starter relay grounds the normally closed pin) the wire should show infinity unless there is a load we missed.

Sorry, which wire?

[jawn101]

Ok so I made a boneheaded move that introduced spurious data here. I left the white bulkhead connector unplugged, which accounted for the strange behavior on the dash with the W/R disconnected. So ignore that bit.

I just reconnected everything in the engine bay with the exception of the white/yellow wire on the resistor, the CSV is still in a jar, and the W/R on the starter. Dash is normal. Turning the key to start produces no effect - no starter spin, no CSV action. I did test the starter after reassembling it with the W/R connected and it cranks so I did that right at least.

[jawn101]

Gentlemen - we have run into an Occam's Razor situation here. I was asking in the beginning of this thread how to jumper the TTS out of the equation to see if that had failed. I didn't get a proper process for doing so and got started down a whole bunch of tangents that distracted me from that test. Just now I disconnected the TTS, put a simple alligator clip from the U/B wire to the block and cranked the motor. My CSV jar filled with gas. I emptied the gas out, reconnected the TTS and tried again - no spray.

This was with all the wiring, relays, everything restored completely to stock connections except the ignition resistor to the coil to prevent actual starting.

So, I assume that the TTS has just gone bad, which is apparently the most common cause of cold start issues. That sound right to everyone?

[DMC5180]

WOW, Post 129 finds the solution assuming the TTS is below 95 F :bigclap:

For that matter you could simply do an ohm test of the two contact spades in the TTS to ground.

[jawn101]

WOW, Post 129 finds the solution assuming the TTS is below 95 F :bigclap:

For that matter you could simply do an ohm test of the two contact spades in the TTS to ground.

Hey, I tried to check that thing earlier but I didn't know how to properly cut it out of the loop! :)

Big thanks to David Proehl for sending me the DeLorean Motor Center Emergency Handbook, which contained the procedure to jumper the TTS.

And especially big thanks to Ron Dave and Dennis for helping me stumble around the entirety of my engine harness while I made diagnostic error after diagnostic error. You guys are invited to join me and David for the free In-N-Out burger that you all so rightly deserve... :)

[dmc6960]

Hrmph. I should be online more often during the weekends.

[jawn101]

Hrmph. I should be online more often during the weekends.

David says you're awesome, so you're invited too Jim. ;)

[dmc6960]

Ha. You know back in my younger pre-family days I would actually take you up on that offer. I work in a school district so late August and early september are no good to travel, but by October I'd be knocking at your door ready and rearing to go.

I was really hrmph-ing the fact that you went on this huge tangent at all. I'd like to say I could have stopped you and gotten you doing the final proper test right away. But we'll never know that now.

[jawn101]

Ha. You know back in my younger pre-family days I would actually take you up on that offer. I work in a school district so late August and early september are no good to travel, but by October I'd be knocking at your door ready and rearing to go.

I was really hrmph-ing the fact that you went on this huge tangent at all. I'd like to say I could have stopped you and gotten you doing the final proper test right away. But we'll never know that now.

Ah well, we have plenty of room for you AND the family if you wanna take a drive. David can tell you, we're friendly round these parts.

[Ron]

I don't know...since the CSV works when you ground the TTS's U/B wire now and that is the same wire as the CSV's U/B wire, I'd have to say you have an intermittent problem or didn't do the test below correctly because the CSV don't know if the U/B wire is being grounded at the TTS switch socket with an aligator clip or from wherever the 12.5V was going to in the test....


No, test from W/R to (-) with key on START to see if power is getting there. U/B to (+) to see if power has a place to go.
If both pass the test then the unit is bad... (assuming the amperage is there to drive the CSV/component).

W/R to - (intake manifold) with the key to start (cranking) yielded about 10v. U/B to + yielded about 12.5.

???

Other than the TTS, the only other place the U/B wire can get ground while the CSV's plug is pulled is from something plugged into the hot start socket. Where was the 12.5V going to???


I guess jumping the U/B at the TTS "bypasses" the TTS, but it overrides its function AND all of the components involved to accomplish it too (connection between the TTS and U/B, TTS internals, TTS to engine, to ground...(and in other circumstances, you might include the W/R (in schematic) to feed the heating element, etc.)

Fingers crossed...

[DavidProehl]

Hey, I tried to check that thing earlier but I didn't know how to properly cut it out of the loop! :)

Big thanks to David Proehl for sending me the DeLorean Motor Center Emergency Handbook, which contained the procedure to jumper the TTS.

And especially big thanks to Ron Dave and Dennis for helping me stumble around the entirety of my engine harness while I made diagnostic error after diagnostic error. You guys are invited to join me and David for the free In-N-Out burger that you all so rightly deserve... :)

Glad it was of help! I didn't post it earlier in this thread because I thought those tests had been ruled out. I know this document has been posted before, but just so everyone has it, I've attached what I sent Jon.

12693


David says you're awesome, so you're invited too Jim. ;)

Yes he is! Jim has pulled me out of more than just a few rough patches with the car. I owe him big time!

[jawn101]

I don't know...since the CSV works when you ground the TTS's U/B wire now and that is the same wire as the CSV's U/B wire, I'd have to say you have an intermittent problem or didn't do the test below correctly because the CSV don't know if the U/B wire is being grounded at the TTS switch socket with an aligator clip or from wherever the 12.5V was going to in the test....




???

Other than the TTS, the only other place the U/B wire can get ground while the CSV's plug is pulled is from something plugged into the hot start socket. Where was the 12.5V going to???


I guess jumping the U/B at the TTS "bypasses" the TTS, but it overrides its function AND all of the components involved to accomplish it too (connection between the TTS and U/B, TTS internals, TTS to engine, to ground...(and in other circumstances, you might include the W/R (in schematic) to feed the heating element, etc.)

Fingers crossed...

Interesting point, Ron. I will double check the voltage in the CSV plug tonight. Is it possible that the TTS is damaged internally in such a way that it's passing some voltage but not enough to actuate the CSV? It is a bimetallic arm after all, maybe it's making an incomplete circuit.

Edit: I wonder if the coolant temperature could have a role in that.

[Ron]

Glad it was of help! I didn't post it earlier in this thread because I thought those tests had been ruled out. I know this document has been posted before, but just so everyone has it, I've attached what I sent Jon.

THANKS!!!

And to return the favor, it is now a meg smaller and serchable ;-)

12696

[Ron]

Interesting point, Ron. I will double check the voltage in the CSV plug tonight. Is it possible that the TTS is damaged internally in such a way that it's passing some voltage but not enough to actuate the CSV? It is a bimetallic arm after all, maybe it's making an incomplete circuit.

Edit: I wonder if the coolant temperature could have a role in that.
Yes...


===========

Just in case (and for a poor soul with a similar problem who has followed this thread thus far ;-), I'm going to answer the last question while my head is in this gear:

After removing the cap and plunger completely, I tested the ground on the W/R stud again and it is still present. Are we *SURE* it's not supposed to be there??
No!...you can't be sure because there are several ways solenoid coils are wired internally (and I don't know which a delorean uses). Remember:


Once you have the strap off of the 9 o'clock terminal just check for continuity between the 3 O'Clock terminal (with nothing on it either) and the solenoid case (or ground).
If it has continuity[B], either it is wired weird internally or toasted, so open it up. I'm 99.9% that will be the case if I'm following all that you have reported so far.
Check from both terminals to case (ground) while you are at it....

At this point, I would compare the readings with a matching good solenoid coil, since that section is virtually sealed up and it is complicated to figure out what is going on inside w/o any specs at all...They can have one fine wire coil, two coils (actually one wire tapped part way through and grounded to the case. One to engage and the other to hold.), one coil terminal or two (for one or two coils), etc, ect....just depends on what and how many different applications one is intended for..

===========

Jon, I assume you have ordered a TTS? (PM me if you need a test unit)

[jawn101]

Yes...
[But remember it is amperage = current, which flows...
An old analogy to help: voltage = water pressure, amperage = water flow, resistance = water pipe size
(only "flaw" is that you invert the resistance v/s pipe size idea because increased resistance = lower flow and increased pipe size = higher flow...other wise it is a perfect fit. Anyway, it helps me keep the terminology and relationships straight.)]

===========

Just in case (and for a poor soul with a similar problem who has followed this thread thus far ;-), I'm going to answer the last question while my head is in this gear:

No!...you can't be sure because there are several ways solenoid coils are wired internally (and I don't know which a delorean uses). Remember:


At this point, I would compare the readings with a matching good solenoid coil, since that section is virtually sealed up and it is complicated to figure out what is going on inside w/o any specs at all...They can have one fine wire coil, two coils (actually one wire tapped part way through and grounded to the case. One to engage and the other to hold.), one coil terminal or two (for one or two coils), etc, ect....just depends on what and how many different applications one is intended for..

===========

Jon, I assume you have ordered a TTS? (PM me if you need a test unit)

Once again my head is spinning with all the info in this thread. It's real live data overload. I didn't check the amperage to the CSV at any point, whether with the TTS installed or jumpered out. But I can do that too.

I just got off the phone with Julee and have a new TTS on the way.

I think the starter solenoid is OK, since I don't imagine the car would start if that was shorted?

[Bitsyncmaster]

Here is my guess on the resistance to ground of each component. So if the white/red wire is disconnected (or all wires on that component) it would not affect your resistance on the white/red wire.

Starter, less than one ohm
CSV (if TTS is grounding the CSV) about 20 ohms
TTS, about 40 ohms
Hot start relay, is it an empty socket?
Not sure if the start inhibit relay shorts it to ground when off but that would be less than one ohm if it does.

Now if removing all those connections you still read zero ohms then something else not shown on the schematic is on that circuit or the wire has cut through the insulation and contacting another circuit.

I still think the schematic is wrong for some harness because I remember finding problems with the schematic when I trouble shot my CSV. I've since removed the TTS and use my hot start relay so I can't do much checking on my car.

[Ron]

Once again my head is spinning with all the info in this thread. It's real live data overload. I didn't check the amperage to the CSV at any point, whether with the TTS installed or jumpered out. But I can do that too.

I just got off the phone with Julee and have a new TTS on the way.

I think the starter solenoid is OK, since I don't imagine the car would start if that was shorted?That part was only saying I thought you had the right idea, thus the short "yes..."), but, using the wrong terminology, thus a confusing explanation :wink:.

[Do not read until brain circuits cool- No need to do that...you can only read what amperage is "pulled", or used -- it is reactive, a result...not voltage. SO, checking amperage offers little more* than telling you there is a path from battery (+) and (-) and it is currently being used, which you already know because you measured voltage.
[* WRT to the task at hand]

And +1 on the solenoid (for now).

[Ron]

Here is my guess on the resistance to ground of each component. So if the white/red wire is disconnected (or all wires on that component) it would not affect your resistance on the white/red wire.

Starter, less than one ohm
CSV (if TTS is grounding the CSV) about 20 ohms
TTS, about 40 ohms
Hot start relay, is it an empty socket?
Not sure if the start inhibit relay shorts it to ground when off but that would be less than one ohm if it does.

Now if removing all those connections you still read zero ohms then something else not shown on the schematic is on that circuit or the wire has cut through the insulation and contacting another circuit.

I still think the schematic is wrong for some harness because I remember finding problems with the schematic when I trouble shot my CSV. I've since removed the TTS and use my hot start relay so I can't do much checking on my car.
+1

There are definitely two versions of the harness WRT to the TTS..skim through to nearly the end of this discussion (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?4912-White-Trapezoid-Plug-with-U-Y-amp-U-B-Wires-ID).

[jawn101]

Here is my guess on the resistance to ground of each component. So if the white/red wire is disconnected (or all wires on that component) it would not affect your resistance on the white/red wire.

Starter, less than one ohm
CSV (if TTS is grounding the CSV) about 20 ohms
TTS, about 40 ohms
Hot start relay, is it an empty socket?
Not sure if the start inhibit relay shorts it to ground when off but that would be less than one ohm if it does.

Now if removing all those connections you still read zero ohms then something else not shown on the schematic is on that circuit or the wire has cut through the insulation and contacting another circuit.

I still think the schematic is wrong for some harness because I remember finding problems with the schematic when I trouble shot my CSV. I've since removed the TTS and use my hot start relay so I can't do much checking on my car.

The U/Y on the TTS reads 34 ohms with the car off. The U/B reads 86. Similarly, U/B on the CSV reads 86 and the W/R on the CSV reads 0. Body of the CSV to the block reads 0 as well. All readings were taken with the TTS connected.

The TTS pin that goes to the U/B wire reads 101 ohms to ground. The other pin reads 55. These readings were taken with the TTS unplugged but still in the thermostat housing.

[jawn101]

The U/Y on the TTS reads 34 ohms with the car off. The U/B reads 86. Similarly, U/B on the CSV reads 86 and the W/R on the CSV reads 0. Body of the CSV to the block reads 0 as well. All readings were taken with the TTS connected.

The TTS pin that goes to the U/B wire reads 101 ohms to ground. The other pin reads 55. These readings were taken with the TTS unplugged but still in the thermostat housing.

Also I know it's very strange that the U/B wire read 86 on the CSV and the pin on the TTS read higher. I measured the U/B wire from CSV to TTS in the harness only and it was 0.1 ohms, so there's nothing introducing additional resistance there. It is difficult to get a probe or other device into the TTS itself while it's still in the car, the A/C compressor is in the way. So I may have probed that incorrectly and touched both pins or the inside of the housing or something.

[jawn101]

SOLVED.

Got my new thermotime switch today from DMCMW and installed it in about 10 minutes. New switch installed, white/yellow wire disconnected, CSV in a jar and cranked it. Gas in the jar! Put the CSV back in and reconnected the resistor. It started on the first turn - hasn't run or primed in days.

Thanks again everyone for the help.

Future thread readers: make sure you've fully tested and eliminated your TTS as the cause of your cold start issues before going too crazy :)

[vwdmc16]

Yay! Simple faults diagnosed in complicated ways, and solved simply!

[DavidProehl]

Congratulations! Finally your pain can end!

[Ron]

For future reference- Early/Late TTS wiring:

12745

[jawn101]

For future reference- Early/Late TTS wiring:

12745

Awesome, Ron. I guess we learned something from this thread after all, eh? Thanks for making that.

[DMC5180]

For future reference- Early/Late TTS wiring:

12745



The EARLY style was OE on 81's and some 82's is the harness that routes over the top of the engine and represents the majority of the cars produced. Approx 7000 or more

The interesting thing here, is that the manual depicts the LATE style harness configuration. aka: the (Hidden style) harness.