Crank no start.. Please Help!!

[krs09]

Hi everyone, New Delorean owner and lifetime fan. She has been sitting for 20yrs so she needs work but nothing terrible. Heres my real issue.. I have a crank no start hot or cold, will start intermittently but stall, only real way to get her started to give a little help and spray brake cleen into the intake and it will start and run. When it runs it runs good no knocking , pinging or hesitation but wont start on her own. I just got it so the previous owner told me he just replaced the whole fuel system, cleaned out the tank, replaced the injectors and did a little brake work (I do have those recipts). I replaced the fuel filter and battey. Just not sure what it could be .. Can it be a bad CSV, wiring, bad relays ect.. Im at a loss and just dont know where to start. What do you think? Any suggestions would be great. PLEASE HELP !!


Bringing back a sleeping beauty.. vin#4870 custom gray interior, sweet fuzzy dash and stock everything else.

[Bitsyncmaster]

So it runs good after you get it started? Did these problems just show up or has it always been this way?

[Rich]

Runs OK after you manage to start it with starting fluid - is that the problem description? Then it rules out the pump. And the ignition must be OK if it lights up with starting fluid.

There could be more than one cause, one cause for cold start, one for hot start. Let's guess it's limited to the fuel system for now.

What to do?

One big-picture approach worth considering up front is calling on a decent independent shop or even a dealer who knows their way around Bosch FI. The good news for D owners is that the Bosch K-Jetronic fuel inj. system - just like ours - was used for >15 years on millions of VW, MBZ, Volvo, BMW, Porsche and Saab engines of all flavors. An hour or two at a decent shop with proper gauges and K-Jet experience can be money well spent vs. you chasing maybe-this-and-maybe-that for the first time with or without help from the forum.

Such shops can sort out 30 year old K-Jet problems for all those cars and our cars. You might as well find a good repair shop sooner than later. Since your car runs you can get it over to a shop and get a first opinion. Your D will not be the first K-Jet car they've seen that didn't start for some reason even if it's the first time for you.

For background or DIY reference you will find two factory troubleshooting guides that cover no-starts on first page of Resources section under General Discussion. Am sure that this forum will help if you prefer the DIY route.

While you are struggling with this be sure to give the starter a rest so as not to fry it unnecessarily.

Good luck - and do consider finding a shop to help you. It can save $$$ and time - and collateral damage.

[krs09]

So it runs good after you get it started? Did these problems just show up or has it always been this way?

Yeah it does run good once you get it started... Well it has been sitting, the previous owner told me he had it running after they took it out of storage and a little work. When the trailor showed up to drop it off i noticed he had to put some gas in the intake and get it started,, must have been giving him a hard time cus the element housing was in the trunk so it wasnt the first time he had to do that.

[Bitsyncmaster]

So it sounds like you have never had the car driving on the road. Your first step is to verify primary fuel pressure and control pressure. If those check out good, it may just be your mixture adjustment is wrong.

So you need to get those pressures checked.

[krs09]

Runs OK after you manage to start it with starting fluid - is that the problem description? Then it rules out the pump. And the ignition must be OK if it lights up with starting fluid.

There could be more than one cause, one cause for cold start, one for hot start. Let's guess it's limited to the fuel system for now.

What to do?

One big-picture approach worth considering up front is calling on a decent independent shop or even a dealer who knows their way around Bosch FI. The good news for D owners is that the Bosch K-Jetronic fuel inj. system - just like ours - was used for >15 years on millions of VW, MBZ, Volvo, BMW, Porsche and Saab engines of all flavors. An hour or two at a decent shop with proper gauges and K-Jet experience can be money well spent vs. you chasing maybe-this-and-maybe-that for the first time with or without help from the forum.

Such shops can sort out 30 year old K-Jet problems for all those cars and our cars. You might as well find a good repair shop sooner than later. Since your car runs you can get it over to a shop and get a first opinion. Your D will not be the first K-Jet car they've seen that didn't start for some reason even if it's the first time for you.

For background or DIY reference you will find two factory troubleshooting guides that cover no-starts on first page of Resources section under General Discussion. Am sure that this forum will help if you prefer the DIY route.

While you are struggling with this be sure to give the starter a rest so as not to fry it unnecessarily.

Good luck - and do consider finding a shop to help you. It can save $$$ and time - and collateral damage.

Wow, thank you so much for all the info.. I know you may be right, taking it to a k-jet tech is gonna save some cash in the long run I guess. Another problem I do have is the first time we really got it running and had it idle and rev for about 10minutes and i was over joyed to see a nice plume of smoke come from the back of the engine bay. Looks like the back of the valve cover gasket is leaking onto the manifold, that sucks but not the end of the world. So driving it to a shop may not be a good idea till thats done.

[krs09]

So it sounds like you have never had the car driving on the road. Your first step is to verify primary fuel pressure and control pressure. If those check out good, it may just be your mixture adjustment is wrong.

So you need to get those pressures checked.

Ok, will do. Thank you so much for the info.. How do you adjust the fuel mixture.. What are those 3 copper nut heads on top of the mixture unit?

[Bitsyncmaster]

Ok, will do. Thank you so much for the info.. How do you adjust the fuel mixture.. What are those 3 copper nut heads on top of the mixture unit?

The three brass head "screws" should all be closed. Turn them clockwise fully but don't use much pressure or you will break them.

You check the mixture with a dwell meter reading the frequency valve duty cycle.

[krs09]

The three brass head "screws" should all be closed. Turn them clockwise fully but don't use much pressure or you will break them.

You check the mixture with a dwell meter reading the frequency valve duty cycle.

My god you are the best. Thank you for the info. I know for sure those brass screws are not closed Nott sure what they do but they are not closed. . Ugh..

[DeLorean]

My god you are the best. Thank you for the info. I know for sure those brass screws are not closed Nott sure what they do but they are not closed. . Ugh..

idle control, if you don't have an idle control valve (non DeLorean application). If your idle control does not work, and those are OPEN, it will cause it to not idle if you close them up...

[DMC5180]

Can you post a couple photos of the Engine?

When checking the 3 brass screws always turn them CCW first to see if they move, then CW till they stop. That way you know they are closed.

[krs09]

idle control, if you don't have an idle control valve (non DeLorean application). If your idle control does not work, and those are OPEN, it will cause it to not idle if you close them up...

Oooo. The idle seemed ok. There is a switch that sticks a little and the idle speed runs high if i dont make sure the switch is pushed all the way in, when the button is pushed all the way in the idle speed sounds like its where it supposed to be. So if it idles ok (when i get it started) should i leave the brass nuts open or closed?? I gues ill just test them out. Thanks so much.

[DMC5180]

You verified you Idle Speed Motor is working when the switch is depressed. That's good. If you rotate the throttle spool CCW does the switch trip? If not, you may need to set the switch adjustment screw in a couple turns or shorten the linkage rod slightly. A working ISM means the 3 brass screws should be closed per OE spec.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Can you post a couple photos of the Engine?

When checking the 3 brass screws always turn them CCW first to see if they move, then CW till they stop. That way you know they are closed.

+1

[David T]

Sounds like your CSV is not operating on cold start-up. Not a good idea to start driving a Delorean that sat for 20 years without rebuilding the brake system. I just got one going that the owner claims sat for (only) 4 years. In just a couple of miles he lost all of his brake fluid. Had to limp home on his E brake. Ditto for the clutch hydraulics if a 5-speed. Try starting it cold with the plug swap. Don't mess with the mixture screw, it's probably close enough. The fuel plunger can also be stuck (it was on the one I just revived). That would make it run VERY rich. Watch the muffler and cat, they will start to glow red!
David Teitelbaum

[krs09]

You verified you Idle Speed Motor is working when the switch is depressed. That's good. If you rotate the throttle spool CCW does the switch trip? If not, you may need to set the switch adjustment screw in a couple turns or shorten the linkage rod slightly. A working ISM means the 3 brass screws should be closed per OE spec.

Perfect. Ill see if i can adjust that screw near the spool to try and fix that sticky switch and ill be sure to close all those screws later today. I think i may need a new spring that pushes that button down (may not have enough tension), ill try that adjustment first. Thank you again.. This fourm is the best.. Just every one trying to revive these classics

[Dangermouse]

Can you post a couple photos of the Engine?

When checking the 3 brass screws always turn them CCW first to see if they move, then CW till they stop. That way you know they are closed.

Otherwise you will shear off the head! Ask me how I know?


I remember this car and the fuzzy dash (I'd like to hear more about that some day, as it didn't look like a cover.

Anyway, I kept a pic of the engine, which I will post to help the OP out

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12494&d=1344877928

as I wonder what the cylinder in the upper left of the picture is and whether it plays a part in this particular issue?

12494

[jawn101]

Otherwise you will shear off the head! Ask me how I know?


I remember this car and the fuzzy dash (I'd like to hear more about that some day, as it didn't look like a cover.

Anyway, I kept a pic of the engine, which I will post to help the OP out

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12494&d=1344877928

as I wonder what the cylinder in the upper left of the picture is and whether it plays a part in this particular issue?

12494

Also strange, the rubber hose from the oil breather cap that usually goes to the air filter box is routed off the edge of the photo. The idle control switch looks non-original. I don't see the FTE switch, do you guys? The hot air stove and air valve have been removed but I don't see any evidence of a cold air intake. There are definitely some PO mods here that need to be sorted out before too much time is spent chasing down the starting issues IMO.

[krs09]

Otherwise you will shear off the head! Ask me how I know?


I remember this car and the fuzzy dash (I'd like to hear more about that some day, as it didn't look like a cover.

Anyway, I kept a pic of the engine, which I will post to help the OP out

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12494&d=1344877928

as I wonder what the cylinder in the upper left of the picture is and whether it plays a part in this particular issue?

12494

Well i tell ya what.. Thats my engine.. I cant believe you have a pic of my car but it was from alabama.. Thats my car for sure, the after market coolant jar and cap, the hose off the side of the pic (i did order one and fixed that). Thats crazy.. When or Why did you see the car? Gotta love that dash right?..(ugh). But i do like the custom seats. Any info you have on that pic would be great. Thank you so much

[krs09]

Also strange, the rubber hose from the oil breather cap that usually goes to the air filter box is routed off the edge of the photo. The idle control switch looks non-original. I don't see the FTE switch, do you guys? The hot air stove and air valve have been removed but I don't see any evidence of a cold air intake. There are definitely some PO mods here that need to be sorted out before too much time is spent chasing down the starting issues IMO.

You are right about all that.. That idle control switch is giving me a hard time too.. What is the FTE switch? The air valve and hoses were gone when i got it (about 2wks ago) but i read that stuff may not even be necessary so i got a duct to connect the element housing to the cold air duct and just leave the rest out (i hope thats ok). What else looks non factory?? Been looking at these cars for years and years and just dont really know what your looking at till you have one in front of you (its always harder than you think.. lucky me)

[jawn101]

You are right about all that.. That idle control switch is giving me a hard time too.. What is the FTE switch? The air valve and hoses were gone when i got it (about 2wks ago) but i read that stuff may not even be necessary so i got a duct to connect the element housing to the cold air duct and just leave the rest out (i hope thats ok). What else looks non factory?? Been looking at these cars for years and years and just dont really know what your looking at till you have one in front of you (its always harder than you think.. lucky me)

Might want to get an original idle microswitch to replace it. The FTE is full-throttle enrichment switch and should be positioned just to the right of the thermostat housing so that the throttle spool hits it when you go wide-open throttle. Cold air duct to the pontoon is fine, I just didn't see it in your photo. Where does the hose from the oil breather cap currently route to? What is that big cylinder on the firewall (to the left of the ingition ballast resistor) connected to?

[Dangermouse]

Well i tell ya what.. Thats my engine.. I cant believe you have a pic of my car but it was from alabama.. Thats my car for sure, the after market coolant jar and cap, the hose off the side of the pic (i did order one and fixed that). Thats crazy.. When or Why did you see the car? Gotta love that dash right?..(ugh). But i do like the custom seats. Any info you have on that pic would be great. Thank you so much

Sorry, nothing too exciting. Just from the eBay ad, I think.

[krs09]

Might want to get an original idle microswitch to replace it. The FTE is full-throttle enrichment switch and should be positioned just to the right of the thermostat housing so that the throttle spool hits it when you go wide-open throttle. Cold air duct to the pontoon is fine, I just didn't see it in your photo. Where does the hose from the oil breather cap currently route to? What is that big cylinder on the firewall (to the left of the ingition ballast resistor) connected to?

I will look for those replacement parts. I do want to try to get her as close to factory as i can. Im not sure what that cylinder is on the firewall, that pic is from a previous owner but it looks just the way it is now (i just got it 2wks ago). Any ideas on what this aftermarket stuff could be would be helpful. Thanks

[krs09]

Sorry, nothing too exciting. Just from the eBay ad, I think.

Oooo... Awwww

[Dangermouse]

Can you post a pic of the ends of the mystery cylinder please?

Perhaps we can work out if it is fuel or vacuum related.

[krs09]

Can you post a pic of the ends of the mystery cylinder please?

Perhaps we can work out if it is fuel or vacuum related.

You know in that pic it shows the fuel mixture plate looks to sit flush with the opening .. when i recieved the car the PO had tape wraped around the rubber center piece almost to shim it so their would be a slight opening at top all the way around the edges.. Any thoughts ??

[jawn101]

You know in that pic it shows the fuel mixture plate looks to sit flush with the opening .. when i recieved the car the PO had tape wraped around the rubber center piece almost to shim it so their would be a slight opening at top all the way around the edges.. Any thoughts ??

Wow... what? Sounds like a LOT of compensating was going on for running issues.

[Rich]

Im not sure what that cylinder is on the firewall....Any ideas on what this aftermarket stuff could be would be helpful.

The Mystery Cylinder mounted to the firewall might be a vacuum servo for a vintage '80's aftermarket cruise control. That's where most of them were located when folks retrofitted it. Look for a vac hose to one side or the other, probably on the left, where a black hose is visible in the photo, plus a secondary linkage/cable from the right side of the cylinder around the back of the engine up to the front-mounted throttle spool. The linkage might be gone or not.

If that's what the Myst.Cyl. is then it suggests other recommendations relative to the throttle's reluctance to idle without some help. Let us know.

[krs09]

Wow... what? Sounds like a LOT of compensating was going on for running issues.

Yea tell me about it. I see more every time i check it out (great).. Is there supposed to be a slight opening around that plate or should it sit flush with the opening and sit against the rubber center piece ??

[krs09]

The Mystery Cylinder mounted to the firewall might be a vacuum servo for a vintage '80's aftermarket cruise control. That's where most of them were located when folks retrofitted it. Look for a vac hose to one side or the other, probably on the left, where a black hose is visible in the photo, plus a secondary linkage/cable from the right side of the cylinder around the back of the engine up to the front-mounted throttle spool. The linkage might be gone or not.

If that's what the Myst.Cyl. is then it suggests other recommendations relative to the throttle's reluctance to idle without some help. Let us know.

Ha! I think your right! I do have a terrible after market cruise control arm bolted to the side of the column cover.. I wanted to remove that anyway, so now at least i know i can remove that thing.. Thank you.. You are good! Any other tip or hint would be great .. Im goning to try to post some more pics for you delorean detectives .

[Bitsyncmaster]

Yea tell me about it. I see more every time i check it out (great).. Is there supposed to be a slight opening around that plate or should it sit flush with the opening and sit against the rubber center piece ??

Mine sits flush with the engine off. It will never hit the rubber bumper unless you break something.

[Rich]

Ha! I think your right! I do have a terrible after market cruise control arm bolted to the side of the column cover.. I wanted to remove that anywa. Any other tip or hint would be great ..

OK, now you know what you have there on the firewall. You may already have the Cruise Removal project well in hand.

Rip the servo and the bracket off. Find the control wiring back from the steering column and expect to see some funny wire taps somewhere up there. Your call as to when to clean up the control switch and dash wiring. Remove the vacuum tube to the servo/can on at the firewall and plug whatever's left. You can tidy it up later. As you know by now there was never a factory cruise control option for D's.

The main thing to clear out is any remainder of the secondary throttle linkage from the cruise servo up to the throttle spool. It can only help your idle situation, to say nothing of a potential safety improvement.

[Rich]

While you are looking at your throttle spool to verify that the cruise linkage is gone check to see that the throttle spool return spring is on the tighter of the two positions - it might help settle the idle. Have seen D's with the OEM spool spring disengaged or broken/missing and some weirdly-added add-on throttle spring trying in vain to do that job.

Ooooops! I just now see "your" engine bay photo that your engine shows it's indeed missing that part. Lord knows what you have in there as a throttle spring.

Get one of these and install it, then take out whatever was added in its place. 5 minute job. Do this before worrying whether your idle microswitch is hanging up.

http://store.delorean.com/p-6414-quadrant-rtn-spring-upr.aspx

Photo below is taken looking at throttle spool/quadrant from the coolant tank. Second/tighter spring position shown where the spring engages the spool tabs.

12544

[Rich]

Further to the post above - Am not seeing any throttle spool/quadrant return spring on this throttle spool/quadrant. Zoomed in from engine bay photo in this thread.

12545

[Dangermouse]

Good catch, Rich.

It would be a good idea if the OP posts a new photo of what the engine bay looks like today. I pulled the posted one from the ebay ad, but who knows when the PO took the picture.

[David T]

There are a lot of things that are not right which means someone not familiar with Deloreans has been working on the car:
Wrong pressure cap
wire wrapped around coolant hose (to keep it away from the belt)
missing coil cover
non-original idle switch
oil filler vent hose going the wrong way
wiring not routed correctly
throttle recall cover missing
leakage from thermostat and/or bleeder screw
Some of this is minor or cosmetic but it indicates that you must do further investigation and fix everything that was "fixed" previously. Having full and positive control over the throttle is VERY important and is a BIG safety issue. I would remove ALL parts of the cruise control and make sure the throttle has no play and the springs return it to idle properly.
David Teitelbaum

[82DMC12]

Anyone live near OP? Unbelievable what kinds of things could be fixed/noted/prioritize in about 2 hours. So many issues that simply need an experienced hand.

Andy

[jawn101]

It would be great if he could post some more photos of the engine bay, with some closeups of the problem areas... that would sure be easier than working off of one grainy, poorly lit photo that may not even represent the current state of the motor :)

[krs09]

Further to the post above - Am not seeing any throttle spool/quadrant return spring on this throttle spool/quadrant. Zoomed in from engine bay photo in this thread.

12545

Well Rich you are the man... I checked out the servo yesterday and followed the lines, turns out the cable that runs to the right side of the bay was frayed and snapped and just hanging there(i asume that was going for the throttle) so that i guess thats good. The other side of the servo was tube running down to a splitter (T connecting piece) and going into a hose from the left side of the bay, looked like he just cut the hose in half and added the "splitter",, and some wiring going into the fire wall (hopefully i can just cut that out). You are dead on about the spring, this guy has a spring wrapped around the (hammer) that actually pushes in the idle switch button, no wonder theres not enough pressure to do the job.. Ordering that spring TODAY. The list is growing.. I just want to get her going again.. O and this pic of the bay is recent and not much has been canged yet. I did get the new air filter and the hoses to connect boths sides of the air filter housing..

Now it seems the issues just keep coming.. The more i check her out i see more and more connectiong and wiring just hanging loose and not connecting to anything !! I am going to post some pics like TOMORROW to show you guys what kind of trouble im in.. Thank you so much for all your help you are the best !

[krs09]

Good catch, Rich.

It would be a good idea if the OP posts a new photo of what the engine bay looks like today. I pulled the posted one from the ebay ad, but who knows when the PO took the picture.

Yea i know .. Ive been so busy trying to get her new home ready.. Thanks for even posting the pics. They are recent, havent changed a whole lot yet. I did get the hoses needed to connect both sides of the air filter housing though.. Baby steps. Putting up some pics tomorrow to show you what kind of mess im in

[krs09]

There are a lot of things that are not right which means someone not familiar with Deloreans has been working on the car:
Wrong pressure cap
wire wrapped around coolant hose (to keep it away from the belt)
missing coil cover
non-original idle switch
oil filler vent hose going the wrong way
wiring not routed correctly
throttle recall cover missing
leakage from thermostat and/or bleeder screw
Some of this is minor or cosmetic but it indicates that you must do further investigation and fix everything that was "fixed" previously. Having full and positive control over the throttle is VERY important and is a BIG safety issue. I would remove ALL parts of the cruise control and make sure the throttle has no play and the springs return it to idle properly.
David Teitelbaum

Thanks Dave. I did buy the car off ebay and the "tech" told me he didnt own the car, he was just "helping getting it running". It sure does look a little sloppy if ya ask me.. Boy o boy am i in for some work but its gonna be awesome !

[krs09]

It would be great if he could post some more photos of the engine bay, with some closeups of the problem areas... that would sure be easier than working off of one grainy, poorly lit photo that may not even represent the current state of the motor :)

Im on it. Going to get some more pics tomorrow and post them up. Just to give you a little taste of the trouble im in for. That pic is recent, it was for the ebay posting but i bought the car about 3wks ago so not much has changed.

[Dangermouse]

Well in this case, a picture was definitely worth a 1000 words, even if I do say so myself.

[krs09]

Further to the post above - Am not seeing any throttle spool/quadrant return spring on this throttle spool/quadrant. Zoomed in from engine bay photo in this thread.

12545

Thanks again Rich.. You know what i really need.. I need some pictures of what a stock D engine bay should look like, in detail. I have so many connectors not connected to anything and cant see where they belong. Any idea where I could see some pics of proper D engines with multiple angles??

[Rich]

I need some pictures of what a stock D engine bay should look like, in detail. Any idea where I could see some pics of proper D engines with multiple angles??

Since it's off the direct subject of your Engine Crank No Start discussion and may be of interest to the general community I've posted a new thread over in the Resources section with Engine Bay Photos. Others are welcome to post up more shots there for everybody.

http://dmctalk.org....Engine-bay-photos (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?4891-Engine-bay-photos)

[Dangermouse]

Excellent idea Rich

[jawn101]

Excellent idea Rich

Agreed, I will take some nice ones when I get home today and share.